Talk:John the Baptist

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Initial text was from Easton's Bible Dictionary, 1897

Contents

[edit] locusts

"locusts"

John the Baptist ate Locusts and honey and mainly lived in the wilderness. He wore camel skin.

  • I recall from a documentary I saw years ago (and I wish I could remember the citiation, so that we could include this in the article), there are certain locusts which eat carrion, and thus are not kosher, and others that only eat vegitation, and thus are. I'm not sure if the Gospels are clear which one John ate. JHCC
  • Um, don't ask me to cite a source on this 'cause I can't, but isn't the locust he dined on a locust bean? It would explain why the carob tree pods are known as St John's Bread... any Aramaic scholars out there able to confirm/deny? 172.215.192.93 20:32, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Never mind, apparently that's no longer believed to be right, see Matthew_3:4. 172.215.192.93 21:51, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
  • What the phrase in the gospels where Jesus says, 'John came neither eating nor drinking'? This is a reference to strict naziritism and strict vegetarianism. This could be taken as proof that he ate beans and not insects. But, it would not be wrong for him to eat the locusts, since Leviticus 11 allows it. Also in the Mishnah (Chullin 8), it is flatly stated that both fish and locusts are excluded from the vow of one who vows not to eat 'meat.' Meaning that one could still be technically be considered a vegetarian if one ate either locusts or fish, or both. Still, I think the carob bean theory fits best with what we know of John the Baptist.
  • Sorry, I was unclear, I meant check the Wiki article Matthew_3:4 links to. Section 3.1 states "It is certainly the case that in Greek the two words are very similar, but most scholars today feel this passage is referring to the insects, particularly since the other 22 times the word is used in the Bible, it quite clearly refers to insects". 172.216.101.50 00:49, 29 April 2006 (UTC)


  • The Old Slavonic Version of Josephus says:

And to this he made answer and spake: "I am pure; [for] the Spirit of God hath led me on, and [I live on] cane and roots and tree-food... ...And every animal he abhorred [as food], and every wrong he rebuked, and tree-produce served him for use. German Scholars of the 19th century believed the Slavonic version to contain lost elements of Josephus. Do you know much about them? I have also read New Testament critics who believe the reference is not to insects. --Rakovsky

Jumbling together like this material from the canonical Gospels, material from the apocryphal Infancy Gospels, and bits of medieval lore from the Golden Legend is petty much what might be fairly termed "Sunday-School." A start towards a more creditable entry would be to disentangle these elements. Wetman 02:07, 15 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Excuse my irascible start. But, look! in the entry I'm reading this: According to Christians (Muslims too?) he was a relative of Jesus Christ. So I read that Elizabeth, the Baptist's mother, "was of the daughters of Aaron", according to Luke I: 5. Then in I: 26 Luke calls her the "cousin" (syggenis) of Mary. So, since all us Christians seem to agree on this, exactly how has this discrepency been overcome? How could a cousin of the BVM be "of the daughters of Aaron"? Wetman 08:53, 22 Feb 2004 (UTC)

"Daughters of Aaron" is a term referring to Jewish women who were descended from Levites (Jewish priests): it was very common for these people to refer to themselves (and for others to refer to them) as sons or daughters of Aaron, who was held to be the first priest. Jor 13:14, 8 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

Mormon things should absolutely not be included in a serious discussion on the historical John the Baptist. Joseph Smith's magical adventures have no place in a serious article exploring John the Baptist.

1. This discussion is about the section labeled "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints," so I changed the name of this topic to match the section in the article.
2. This article is about John the Baptist and his Earthly history. If it is believed that he returned to Earth after his death then that is part of his history in some people's eyes. If there is a section in the Jesus article about his (Jesus') resurrection and visits after his death, the same should be held to all people (including John).
3. I do not believe we are discussing Joseph Smith, Jr., but John the Baptist. ~ Danielwellsfloyd

The article has the beliefs of the Mandaeans, unknown to me until today, and numbering "conservatively" 70,000 worldwide. Mormons also hold beliefs about John (as do Cathoics, Protestants, Orthodox Christians, Muslims, and other groups larger than the Mandaeans). A NPOV approach to those beliefs seems appropriate. After all, any non-believer can choose to regard a given faith's accounts as "magical adventures." More important, it's hard to make the case that articles like this should restrict themselves to "earthly life" (in the sense of 'established historical fact') when verifiable information is (a) thin on the ground for many religious figures and (b) only part of the full story, ignoring the significance of what their contemporaries or subsequent followers believe about them or attribute to them. — OtherDave 15:26, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Consistency

Why is there a christian POV rebuttal in the Gnostic POV section? In none of the other sections are alternative viewpoints disputed. - Amgine 06:24, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

As there was no justification proffered as to why the Gnostic view was rebutted, it was removed for consistency's sake. - Amgine 16:45, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Josephus' Dating

John Meier, in his book JESUS A MARGINAL JEW , explains Josephus' dating. Instead of writing "32 AD" for example, Josephus dates events according to when other events happened. Meier says that on this basis, Josephus' dates of the lives of Jesus and John the Baptist can be interpreted differently. -Rakovsky

The section on Josephus fails to mention that there is controversy over the authenticity of the passage. Zindler in "The Jesus the Jews Never Knew" argues that the passage is a later interpolation. Kuratowski's Ghost 14:38, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The {} sign/s

The sign/s: {{NPOV}}{{expansion}}{{Cleanup}} placed on this page without any discussion, explanation or reasoning have been removed pending further discussion. (The category Category:Bible stories is now up for a vote for deletion at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion#Category:Bible stories) Thank you. IZAK 08:00, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] John the Immerser

Some conservative Protestant groups who insist on baptism by total immersion insist on calling him John the Immerser, based on the idea that this is the true translation of the Greek verb baptizo, saying that baptism is a mere transliteration and that the verb form is truly translated immerse. I have not added this to the text of the article in that John the Dipper, which is already included as an alternate title, implies the same thing. This is its origin, FWIW.Rlquall 12:39, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

I'm not sure I agree with that picture being used in the article. I've always understood that Jesus was baptized by immersion. Matt 3:16, Mark 1:5, and Mark 1:10 say that He was baptized in the river, and that He came up out of the water. It doesn't sound like He was sprinkled to me. ---Parlod

I agree with this; can we have a note added to the picture explaining this? Must the picture be there at all? ---Kyle Mullaney

[edit] John the Dipper

John the Dipper is a very rare name for JTB. I suspect it was made up by someone to give their theology lectures a 'cool' feel. It maybe deserves a mention but not in the intro. DJ Clayworth 17:29, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Last of the Prophets?

Mt11:9 and Lk7:26 says Jesus said John was higher than the prophets. Jesus is called a Prophet: Mt21:11,Mk6:15,Lk7:16,39;13:33;24:19,Jn7:52 ... John in 6:14 ... calls Jesus "The Prophet" and has John the Baptist in 1:21 disclaim the title.

[edit] The Head of John the Baptist

There are a at least half dozen heads of John the Baptist in Europe and the former Byzantine Empire (and various other reliquaries and shrines to JtB). Why is the Muslim one and only that one mentioned in the lead paragraph? --Peter Kirby 03:08, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

Here, here. I'm going to start a section on his relics to address this. Carl.bunderson 04:47, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The skull of John the baptist is also in the jewelry room at Topkapi Palace (former Sultan Palace) in Istanbul.

[edit] Jesus and John the Baptist

I have added the first paragraph from the article Jesus and John the Baptist and merged the rest of the article in Theology of the Unification Church. That this article should be merged was the result of an AfD discussion, but If somebody thinks the new section is inappropriate here, please go ahead and remove it. Paolo Liberatore (Talk) 16:53, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

Some historians, as well as at least one prominent Catholic theologian, believe that based on text criticism, John the Baptist did not accept that Jesus was the Messiah. Such a view can be found in John Hughes, "John the Baptist: the Forerunner of God Himself," (in the journal Novum Testamentum) -Rakovsky

[edit] Catholic Encyclopedia

The link to the Catholic Encyclopedia brings up the 1910 edition - almost a century old, and more than a little out of date. If there can't be a more recent link, it would be better to delete it. PiCo 07:15, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, the Catholic Encyclopedia is almost a century old, and it is written with a Catholic pov, however it is public domain, available free on the internet, and a very valuable source of information. Anyone interested in learning would be well advised to make use of it.

[edit] John the Baptist was not a "Baptist"

John the Baptist is in the category "Baptists". If we include everyone who has baptised as a "Baptist" we would have to include virtually every Christian clergyperson! John the Baptist was a Jew. The were no "Baptists" as we usually use the term for over a millenium and a half after his death.Rockhopper10r 00:12, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Yes, I agree we can not 'verifiably' assret that. As to the classification of other leaders it would bedepend on the interpratation of the grk word 'baptizo'. Kyle.Mullaney 03:56, 9 December 2005 (UTC)Kyle Mullaney

Landmark Baptists name him as the first Baptist...might be something to throw in there somewhere... -DavidK 18:07, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] John the Baptist-Jew

The article does not relate what Jewish party JTB was a member of, Why? How should this best be added? Should it be added as a section that discusses him as an Essene jew? ---Kyle Mullaney

Catherine Murphy, in the book I added to the "Further Reading" section of this article, argues that he belonged to a "purification" movement that was separate from the better known Pharisee & Essene groups. This movement survived his death, at least for a short time: Acts mentions the missionary work of Apollos, who is described as teaching the baptismal beliefs of John the Baptist. (This group is not mentioned in this article, which is a major omission & needs to be fixed before it could be considered for better than "B" class.) I would guess that this group is not well known because of its close association with Christianity: on one hand, the early Christians had little interest in preserving the knowledge of an early competitor, & on the other, the Jews of this time had little interest in preserving any record of a Jewish group with strong connections to those "heretical" Christiams. -- llywrch 18:13, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Muslim stuff

What the hell is all this utterly inconsequential waffle from Mecca doing in this article about one of the key figures of Christianity? Grow a backbone, Christians, and edit this out of the article, lest your faith die to the world under the whip of the Mohammedans.

  • edited for obscenity*

I'm sure Christ, in line with his policy on, you know, loving his neighbors and enemies, etc. entirely agrees with you.

Muslims do believe in prophet John (Yahya), his Islamic view has just as much do be on this page as dose his Christian, Jewish and Bahai views. I think that you should find out what Islam is really about before you claim that it's killing Christianity. I'm a muslim and I respect all over faiths. Christianity and Juadaism are the two closest religons to Islam.This is just a minor point and nothing to do with the article. Please can you not call Muslims followers ofMohammedanism. The politicly-correct word is Islam. Also the PC word for a follower is a muslim, not Mohammedan. Some of us find it offensive, as it implys that we worship Muhhamed (pbuh), we don't we only worship God (Allah). thanks TheDalek 22:39, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you feel the need to reply to a months-old comment -- but you have the etymology wrong. "Mohammedan" simply means that Mohammed was the founder of the movement; it says nothing about who is worshiped. Yes, I know the article makes the claim that its based on the idea the Muslims worship Mohammed. It can only cite an Islamic website to support this because this is a common Muslim misunderstanding. You can find no support for it among those who actually use the word. It simply doesn't mean that. TCC (talk) (contribs) 01:31, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, we don't believe that Muhammad founded this religion. We believe that God did so calling us Muhammadans is incorrect. Besides, it sounds to close to Christianity and how they worship Jesus and call themselves by what he was "The Christ," hence Christians. The term "Muslim" in Arabic means one who submits to God's will. So essentially, Jesus Christ was a Muslim and no can deny that.

It's only incorrect if one believes Islam's teachings. In that sense, it's actually a more NPOV term, not that I'm going to press the issue. After all, whatever one believes about God speaking to Mohammed, it's undeniable that Mohammed was the one who physically set down the Koran, and who was the human leader of the movement in its first years. A Christian would only agree with your last statement to the extent that Jesus Christ was a muslim -- as an adjective, not as the proper noun indicating that he taught or knew the same faith as Mohammed. TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:44, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Prophets in Islam

I have deleted the "prophets in Islam" template. It does not belong in the article. Templates of that nature "hog" page space for one religion vs. another. This article is about John, not Islam. If you want to link to Prophets in Islam, that's ok, but the template is overkill. Merecat 09:32, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I think the template is useful and appropriate, and I have restored it. John is a prophet of Islam. Maybe the template's size or page placement can be adjusted to address your concerns. Tom Harrison Talk 14:24, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I am convinced that you are making a mistake. Please think about this: If we are to be truly NPOV, then each religion would do best to stick with it's own name for its prophets. For example, Noah in English language Christianity & Judaism (not Hebrew though), and Nuh is Arabic and Islam. If we start putting "templates" for Islam on the non-Islamic named prophet pages, then we must make a reciprocal template for the Jewish Prophets and the Christian Prophets and put them on the Islamic named Prophet pages. And there is absolutely no way we will have peace here, if we insist on putting a template of Jewish Prophet names on Islamic pages. Surely you must know that something like that would lead to discord among editors. Suffice it to say, this Islamic template on John the Baptist is the same thing. Personally, I'd prefer that there be no inclusion of this template, but if you insist, to mantain editorial consistancy between prophet pages, you'll force me to proceed as per above. I urge you to reconsider - no good can come of forcing differing faith pages to be homogenized with other faiths. Some distillation of the facts and histories about prophets into separate pages along the lines of each faith is the best idea. If I haven't explained this well, reply to me here and I will try to clarify.


Merecat 00:42, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Would you support breaking out Yahya to a separate page, like Nuh/Noah? Tom Harrison Talk 00:53, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

If that is an historically accurate name, then yes. Merecat 00:55, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Okay; I'll do that tomorrow, unless people object or someone beats me to it. Tom Harrison Talk 01:07, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Excellent! Merecat 02:10, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I split off the Islamic material to Yahya. If I overlooked anything, please send it there. Tom Harrison Talk 19:41, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Well, I won't sleep tonight until I toss this firecracker into the room: Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are not completely distinct faiths. Like many siblings they don't always get along but it's a mistake, I feel, to treat them as distinct, warring entities. Monotheists -- correct me if I'm wrong -- all believe in a single god. That's not to say that this bunch of monotheists over here believe in this god over here and that bunch believe in that god. No, they all believe in the same, single god. All the prophets are of this one god and his messengers. Different monotheists may accept different sets of prophets, of course.
Now -- again, correct me if I'm wrong -- Christians accept the prophets accepted by Jews; Muslims accept the prophets accepted by Christians, including those accepted by Jews; and Baha'is accept the prophets accepted by the others. This seems fairly inclusive to me. We can toss into this mix prophets such as Joseph Smith, Jr. who are accepted by some Christians but not by others and not by any Muslims (correct?).
From a Data modeling viewpoint, Category:Prophets looks very much like a tree. Various kinds of monotheism -- religions, if you like -- may be thought of as subnets of the whole tree. Having said this, it seems clear to me that we need one and only one Template:Prophets. It should be structured as a tree and transcluded on the article pages of all members of the set. For the purpose of this template it should be understood that the term prophet refers exclusively to prophets of the one single god, whatever name is given to that deity.
This will be an interesting exercise in design. John Reid 14:26, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
Well-intentioned though ye are, you should know that Joseph Smith Jr. is not accepted by any Christian, but by the Mormons alone. The faith of Christ Jesus is not the same thing as Mohammedanism. The Mohammedans would be the first to back me up on this. Religions aren't like editions of computer programmes, please don't treat them as simple data. Christianity is completely distinct from Mohammedanism, and vice versa.
I furthermore shall add that to class the money-making racket of the notorious "Reverend" Moon under the category of "religion" is an insult to Mohammedan and Christian alike. Get rid of the Moonie bumf, I entreat.
  • I disagree. There should not be two entries on John the Baptist, with one on a Msulim page, and another on a Christian page. We are dealing with a real historical figure. You would not make 2 articles on Vladimir Lenin on a Socialist page and another on a proCapitalist page. How many figures would end up being put on different pages based on ideology or religion? How many "Moses" and "Abraham" pages? Muslim, Jewish, Christian interpretations of John the Baptist should be on different sections of the same page, since it is about the same historical figure. -Rakovsky
  • I'm adding this here aswell as you mihght not have read it above. This is just a minor point and nothing to do with the article. Please can you not call Muslims followers ofMohammedanism. The politicly-correct word is Islam. Also the PC word for a follower is a muslim, not Mohammedan. Some of us find it offensive, as it implys that we worship Muhhamed (pbuh), we don't we only worship God (Allah). thanksTheDalek 22:40, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

I don't think I really need to explain. This article is written very Christiany and is a clear violation of NPOV (e.g. christ....). eeemess 13:38, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you do need to explain. The article discusses the views of Mandaeans as well as groups not always considered Christian (Unification Church, LDS), and links to the article on the Muslim view. What specifically do you want changed to be less non-NPOV? Angr (talk • contribs) 19:28, 15 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree, an explanation is needed. RentACop 16:55, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
Mandaeans aren't Christian, nor are Muslims. The New Testament is certainly Christian, but it is also one of the main written records claiming anything about John with any sort of historical contemporaryness. Josephus, the source of the other major written record, certainly isn't Christina. What is it that you feel is biased about it? If it is the term Christ, applied to Jesus, then it should be borne in mind that according to some Christologies this is the point in the New Testament that Jesus became Christ, and the title is certainly important to use in this context. Clinkophonist 14:14, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
We've got no explanation from the guy who put up the tag, and 3 people want one. I'm going to take down the NPOV tag until there's some sort of explanation.--outsidethewall 02:41, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] muliple perspective censorship

WTF?! Mandaeanism belongs here less than Muslim stuff. actually Islam is one of the few widespread religions today, and I would say it definitely belongs in here somewhere that John the Baptist is an important part of Muslim teachings. IMO, that should only re-emphasize that value of the John the Baptist story, not detract from it. Yeah, this article requires cleanup and that it's editors not mess around with it constantly.

There are a few ways I see this article going. All the sects and religions could have their own pages, i.e. John the Baptist (Mormon), John the Baptist (Mandaean), etc. all listed on the disambiguation page, or they could each be listed on one page with shortcuts to each at the top. I would suspect that most wikipedia editors don't see their own perspective as the only one worth noting. The only thing eliminating other points of view entirely does is censorship. Another possibility is the division JTB in history among other world religions, JTB in Christian tradition, JTB in Muslim tradition, listed among profits.

Tom Harrison moved Islam-related text to Yahya and it's linked at the bottom. Personally I would be interested in the other stuff as well. - Ben N., May 16 2006

The Islam related text should be moved back, and Yahya redirected here (since Yahya is an arabic name, and this is the english language Wikipedia - the name should really be translated). Clinkophonist 21:28, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Horned and hooved John the Baptist?

Apparently early statues of John the Baptist often depicted him with horns (like Moses) and sometimes even the hind-quarters of a goat, including cloven hooves. I'm trying to track down some decent references for this though. Can anyone help? Thanks, Fuzzypeg 05:49, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I'm an art historian. I've looked at hundreds of representations of John the baptist and never seen one as you are describing it. I would be interested.

--Amandajm 04:42, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alleged prophecy about John the Baptist in the Old Testament

Alleged prophecy about John the Baptist in the Old Testament

Christians believe John the Baptist was the forerunner or precursor to the Messiah, whom they believe to be Jesus. Some Christians argue that a passage in the Book of Malachi should be interpreted as prophecy that refers to a prophet who would prepare the way of the Lord:

Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. - Malachi 3:1 Though this interpretation was uncommon amongst Jews prior to the 2nd century BC, it became significantly more common under Hellenic, and later Christian, influences. Christians also sometimes believe that Isaiah 40:3-5 refers prophetically to John. This belief is based on John's own interpretation in John 1:22-23

I don't understand the tone of this section at all. The words used, starting with the word alleged and including "Some Christians argue..." and "Christians also sometimes believe..." don't seem to capture the sense of how Christians think about these passages from the so-called "prophets".

I consider some of the words to be spurious because, although it might be argued that the writer of them has sought absolute accuracy, the tone implies an essential "wrongness" about the Christian thinking. And there is just a possibility that these Christians might be 100% right.

So I'm going to rewrite it, nicely.

--Amandajm 04:53, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sorry if I'm doing this wrong but this is a firt-time submission

Not sure where or how to post this, but the following paragraph in the article on John the Baptist in the New Testament, Public Ministry, last paragraph, contains some errors and misreadings of the biblical text:

According to the Gospels, John also baptised Jesus. According to the Gospel of John, but not the Synoptic Gospels, John initially excused himself, saying "I need rather being baptized by you", but Jesus declaring that it became them to fulfill all righteousness, John complied. The Gospel of John states that the next day John publicly announced Jesus as the Lamb of God, that takes away the sins of the world (John 1:19-29), and that John's office as forerunner ended with the baptism of Jesus, though he continued for a while to bear testimony to the Messiahship of Jesus. The other three Gospels state that John baptised Jesus shortly after Jesus presented himself, and make no indication that John's ministry had ended, even making further references, later in the text, to John the Baptist continuing to have followers that were independent to those of Jesus.

My proposal for a corrected version is as follows

According to three of the four Gospels, John also baptised Jesus. The Gospel of Matthew (but not Mark and Luke) reports that John initially excused himself, saying "I need rather to be baptised by you." With Jesus declaring that it became them to fulfill all righteousness, John complied. The Gospel of John (hereafter called the Fourth Gospel to avoid confusion) does not record Jesus’ baptism, but has John publicly announcing Jesus as the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world (John 1:29). The Fourth Gospel also says that the importance of John's role decreased as Jesus’ increased (John 3:23-30) and he continued to bear testimony to the Messiahship of Jesus. The other three Gospels state that John baptised Jesus but do not indicate that John's ministry had ended. Matthew even reports that John seemed to have some uncertainty about whether Jesus was the Messiah (Matthew 11:2-6), and it is clear that John continued to have followers that were independent of those of Jesus (ibid.). —Preceding unsigned comment added by G A Cooper (talk • contribs)

Only two things wrong, really. First, on talk pages (but not in articles) you can append four tildes (~~~~) to your post to add your sig and a timestamp. (Your default sig is your username with a link to your user page.)
Second be bold and just update the article. There's no reason to discuss most edits unless they're likely to be controversial. Don't worry if your edit isn't perfect. Very likely someone else will come along and fix anything that needs fixing.
Anyway, thank you and welcome to Wikipedia! TCC (talk) (contribs) 22:13, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Amendment to the Above

I have just read the Talk Topic above, which I had accidentally skipped over and redundantly posted the same issue. Either way, I only corrected the name of the Gospel referenced, rather than rewriting the entire paragraph as proposed. I hope this is sufficient.

In all the copies of the Bible which I have here, almost all of which are the King James Version, the Gospel of Matthew is the book which includes this exchange, whereas the scene from the Gospel of John doesn't mention the scene in the present, only mentioned John's response the day afterwards.

Compare:

From the Gospel of Matthew
[13] Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
[14] But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
[15] And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.
[16] And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
[17] And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Because of this, I think it's safe to edit the line in the article concerning this statement. If I am at error, please let me know. --72.148.136.13 17:04, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Catholic perspective lacking?

I noticed that this article discusses several faith traditions' perspectives on JB, but not that of the Catholic Church. Even just the date on which his sainthood is celebrated would be an improvement.

[edit] New Testament and John

According to the canonical gospels John died during Jesus' ministry. As the last possible date for Jesus' death is 33 the dating by Josephus as presented in the article is clearly different from the Biblical sources. The difference should be noted.


[edit] Mandaean Views of John

I'm substantially editing this section, as it contains many of the classic erroneous misconceptions current among outsiders about John the Baptist within the Mandaean community. I'll expand later as time allows. Kaelus 14:31, 26 September 2006 (UTC) Wondering where in the Ginza Rba this explanation of John's death is. Any place I can get an English translation of this story? Easily find German, but no English.

[edit] Rating

GA? That should be for articles actually identified as good articles. This article has two cleanup tags in it; it's missing at least one major section, and some of those that are there make no sense; there are probable POV problems; and it's virtually unreferenced. I'm changing the quality rating to a "B". TCC (talk) (contribs) 04:25, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] First leader of the Ebionites

According to James Tabor John the Baptist was the first leader of the Ebionites (succeeded by Jesus and later James the Just after John's death).--Michael C. Price talk 17:39, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] He was Jewish

This is not mentioned in the article. I really think it should be. Steve Dufour 18:43, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Nor do I see any mention that he might have been an Essene, which is a pretty popular theory. --Michael C. Price talk 22:28, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
Weren't the Essenes Jewish as well?Steve Dufour 07:03, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Careful about splitting up other people's sigs.
Yes, they were one of the three main "denominations" of Judaism at the time. Josephus mentions them first, and only then the Pharisees and Sadducees that Christians know from the Gospels. He describes them in much more detail than the others too. But not every Jew of the time was clearly a member of one of these parties. In the end, only the Pharisees survived the calamities that fell later in the 1st century. They are the forerunners of modern Rabbinic Judaism. TCC (talk) (contribs) 08:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I at least added his ethnic background to the intro. His connection with the Essenes is held by some, but it's based on highly circumstantial evidence. Neither the Gospels, Christian oral tradition, nor Josephus mentions it. We should add this as a strand of opinion, of course, but I have no sources to hand. TCC (talk) (contribs) 00:19, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it is just a POV, not established fact. Here are relevant sources:
  • Tabor, James D. The Jesus Dynasty: A New Historical Investigation of Jesus, His Royal Family, and the Birth of Christianity, Simon & Schuster, 2006, ISBN 0743287231 & ISBN 0007220588
  • Tabor, James D. Ancient Judaism: Nazarenes and Ebionites. The Jewish Roman World of Jesus, 31 August 2006, 20:02, [1] [accessed 31 August 2006]
  • Rabinowitz, Jacob. Buried Angels. Invisible Books, 2004. [2]
  • Eisenman, Robert & Wise, Michael. The Dead Sea Scrolls Uncovered. 1992, ISBN 1852303689
  • Eisenman, Robert. James the Brother of Jesus: The Key to Unlocking the Secrets of early Christianity and the Dead Sea Scrolls. New York: Viking, 1997, ISBN 1842930265.
There must be many more. --Michael C. Price talk 01:01, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
The "POV" in my last edit summary was on an unrelated edit. But if you have these sources available, then by all means add it. It's probably worth a new section. TCC (talk) (contribs) 01:11, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I could be wrong, but the impression I get is that the Essene view of John the Baptist has grown up principally through readings of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Would this be worth a new section? --Michael C. Price talk 09:26, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reality Check

In reference to the multiple Christianity vs. Islam et al. posts above. I would like to add this perspective.

Most (if not all) of what we know about John the Baptist comes from the Christian documents as interpreted through the Christian religion. That is, all the historical records are Christian, or reinterpretations of those records by later religions. These reinterpretations are secondary data (like hearsay evidence) and should have minimal space on this page. Of course people of other faiths believe that their information is more correct or more directly traceable to the word of God (Muslims and LDS for example) but we can not argue about beliefs here. Other religions that have a different understanding of reality must have separate pages. This page should cover the accepted historical figure replete with contradictions and disputes as best laid out by historical records. As I said these records are all of Christian origin.

I think it is appropriate to have a section "John The Baptist in Non-Christian Faiths" and list the other religions that hold him as significant, but to treat all the religions as equal in regard to this figure is POV. The Islamic prophet template should be removed for the above reason. Let people who are looking for the other reinterpretations follow a link to the proper page and get all the information. 221.28.55.68

Indeed. This entire article is very POV, discussing events as if they actually happened. Not enough "blabla believes this" and "according to the evidence" that. It's all written as matter of fact. 99.246.109.131 (talk) 07:16, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
The initial posting here actually turns matters on its head. The Gospels and Josephus are the main sources about John, written pretty soon after John (1st century) by people living in the region, including a possible eye-wittness. The Quran however was written in the 7th century and other texts even later. Sure any text has its specific outlook and interpretation - there is no such thing as a disinterested author - but to somehow portray the Gospels as "secondary", "hearsay" and Muslim and LDS documents as "more correct" is simply insane. Str1977 (talk) 09:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unification church

The section under "Unification church", reads like

"The Unification Church teaches that God intended that John help Jesus during his public ministry in Israel. In particular, John should have done everything in his power to persuade the Jewish people that Jesus was the Messiah. He was to become Jesus' greatest disciple. John's failure to do so was the chief obstacle to the fulfillment of Jesus' mission."

This is blasphemy. Well i take back. It means to say that the mission of a prophet, God's mission, failed. Any kind of failure attributed to God, is indeed blasphemy. It is atleast so in Islam, i'm not sure of other religious views. Atif.hussain 10:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

What you write is no basis for removing information (as long as it is accurate and NPOV and sourced). Please do not force your narrow views on everyone else. Str1977 (smile back) 07:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hebrew name

Is there any reference for the Hebrew name of John, especially regarding the surname? I am talking "primary" source. If not, it should be removed. Str1977 (smile back) 07:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mikvah

Is there some relationship between John's practices and the traditional mikvah purification? Er, in other words, was John somehow presiding over a normal Jewish ritual of the era, or was he doing something new and untraditional by contemporary standards? 151.197.28.239 20:49, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Miscellaneous

1/. There were more than 3 Jewish movements at the time, and I suspect most of the Israelites were unattached to any of them. The Sadduces were originally the High Priests descended from the First High Priest, Zadoch. The name Sadduces is the plural of the Greek for Zadoch. Zadoch is not an Israelite name, some believe it to be the name of the High Priest of Jerusalem when it was conquered by David. The theorem goes that David made a deal with Zadoch to stay on as the High Priest, but to convert to the Yahweh cult of the Israelites. This sounds plausible, as this would help David keep the peace with the original inhabitants of the city. The Romans destroyed the lineage line, and under Herod [who was an Idumean puppet ruler of Roman Israel, and not Jewish] the High priestly line was purely political. They took the view that as long as they were able to run the Temple rituals as they pleased, then they would not resist the Roman occupation. They were, therefore, hand picked collaborators of the Roman occupation.

2/. The origin of the term Pharises is obscure, but they were enemies of the collaborator Sadduces. They believed and taught that the Roman ["Kittim"] occupation was against God's rule, and that anything Roman was therefore evil. They were, I suppose, "Religious Nationalists". They believed that God's annointed [Moshiach = Messsiah = Annointed] would appear and deliver "The Kingdom of God" from Roman occupation. Who better to be the Moshiach than one from the tribe and tribal area of King David, the deliverer from the Philistines? This "deliverance on earth from occcupation" is far removed from the later Christian view of "Deliverance to heaven from Original Sin", understandable because the Roman Church was created by the Emperor Constantine, and he could hardly preach deliverance from himself. There had been hundreds of men who, it was hoped, would be the Moshiach, but by Contantine's time, the Jewish followers of the Jewish Joshua [Greek, Jesus] had been largely replaced by Pagan converts to the Jesus Cult, which was becoming supercessionist, and overtly anti-Jewish. Constantine could hardly maintain the fact that the Romans killed Jesus because of a perceived danger of insurrection, so "If it wasn't us, it must have beeen the Jews, who reject Jesus as the Messiah". Post hoc, ergo propter hoc [poppycock]. The Pharises and those like them were prominent outside of Jerusalem, away from the Roman seat of governance. This was especially so around Gallilee, the Gallileans [for want of a better term] were remote from the bulk of the Roman occupiers, frontiersmen, and were able to be much more outspoken and independent than those in and around Jerusalem. You can view them as Israelite Texans. Jesus first preached in Gallilee. The Sadduces were prominent in Jerusalem, where the temple was located. The destruction of the second temple destroyed the temple cult, and the Sadduces. Some Pharises survived and began to teach a new form of Judaism, minus the temple rituals. The first such school of what became Rabbis [Rabbi = My teacher, plural = Rabbonim] was at Yavneh. To this day, Rabbis are not "Holy Priests", not "God's men on earth", but can be viewed as professors of Judaism, scholarly men who help Jews lead good lives in accord with the written and oral laws. They have no real central person of authority, no "Pope" or "Archbishop", each Rabbi is hired and fired by each synagogue community, just like a University professor.

3/. There was a third group in Israel at the time of Jesus. These were the Siccarii. They were religious fanatics, with the same basic beliefs as the Pharisees [Get rid of the occupation and replace it with God's rule], but their methods were not of the pulpit, but of the assassins' dagger [hence the name]. They were Jewish terrorists, who assassinated anyone who got in their way, especially collaborating Roman puppet Sadduces. The martyrs of Masada may well have been Siccarii.

4/. There were others, e.g. Essenes to name but one, but they proved to be bit players in the larger battle.

5/. The picture of JB obscures the last line of the first para. Can someone correct this?

Cheers Historygypsy 18:39, 25 June 2007 (UTC)HistoryGysy

[edit] John's views on animal sacrifice

  • I remember reading somewhere that John was opposed to animal sacrifice. Can anyone confirm or rebuke this?--Hraefen Talk 21:31, 13 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] RE: The Knights Templar's and John's Head

I don't know how fitting this is, as the Knights Templar were also reported to worship a cat according to the same inquisitorial reports... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Redroven (talk • contribs) 23:21, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "johnny"?

"He is commonly referred to as johnny by Christians who consider him the forerunner of Jesus Christ."

? Citation needed!

Bleedingcherub (talk) 01:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)


john the baptist baptised jesus when jesus was thirty this was a suprise since jesus was said to be sin less . john was also known as a desert preacher before he became a prophet he lived on locusts and honey milk !!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.204.103.34 (talk) 19:33, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Organization?

Putting aside theological issues and terminology, is it possible to view Zechariah, John the Baptist, Jesus, and Peter or Paul as leaders of a single organization that persisted over time? 70.15.116.59 (talk) 03:08, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] lead needs real work

A mediocre lead defines a topic, while a good lead describes it so thoroughly that it can stand alone as a concise summary (see wp:lead). I've expanded our lead, with references. Leadwind (talk) 15:18, 12 April 2008 (UTC)