Talk:John Wesley

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[edit] Wesley's Denominational Affiliation

Wouldn't it be more correct to list Wesley's Religion in the sidebox as Christian (Church of England) instead of as Methodist? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wgkelley (talk • contribs) 13:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Supernatural

Why hasn't anyone mentioned the supernatural aspect of Wesley's ministry?


[edit] Date

Is his date of birth in New Style (Gregorian) calendar?


[edit] NPOV

This is not written from NPOV.

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I agree with the above anonymous comment. Reads like a Hagiography. --Pjacobi 09:42, 2005 Jun 17 (UTC)

If you see NPOV, then be specific. I guess you guys think that anything that doesn't contain an indictment is NPOV or hagiography. Matter of fact, Welsey was indeed saintly. (He was certainly a nicer person than Luther or Calvin or the founder of his mother church, Henry VIII.) I have never read or heard anything about him, in all the literature, which significantly varies from the assessment in the article. Of course, if one is so inclined, one can infer many things — stubbornness, self-righteousness, intolerance, etc. — from the article. Actually, the article is one of the best, as a capsule biogrpahy, that I have ever read and is an outstanding contribution to Wikipedia. — J M Rice 17:39, 18 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I didn't want to imply that there is a dark spot in his life, which isn't covered. It's the overall tone of the article, and some comments like: Wesley's call to personal and social holiness continues to challenge Christians who struggle to discern what it means to participate in the Kingdom of God. --Pjacobi 21:39, 2005 Jun 18 (UTC)


'his means and plans were such as Providence indicated'

That certainly isnt NPOV, directly implies the existence of Providence.

129.125.103.83 19:20, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Areas for improvement

I put material into the lead to make it a stronger FAC. My own interest is on 18th c. British literary history and philology, so I have a bias that way, but I was raised Methodist and am the grandson of a circuit rider. There are quite a few things, good and bad, missing that could help the article.

  1. Wesley and the controversy of "enthusiasm": Once the field preaching began, the controversy followed sharply. Whitefield is one thing, but when he had the sponsorship of an Establishment figure like Wesley, the doors of the CoE were opened to what we would now call charismatic preaching. One bishop (I'll research the quote, if needed) wrote to Wesley, "Sir, pretending to extraordinary gifts of the Holy Spirit is a monstrous thing." The context here is vital: evangelicals and Low Churchmen were associated with the Cromwellian forces in society still.
  2. Wesley and social reform: The Idea of the Penitentiary (F. Bogel, I think) has a good long section about Methodist prison reformers being instrumental in the development of the penitentiary (as opposed to the jail), and the transformation from the old model of the prison (a place where one waited for sentence to be carried out) to the new (a place where the sentence was carried out) was Methodist before utilitarian. (Penance-tentiary to penitentiary; by enforcing regularity on the men, one would calm their minds and instill order, and one could make their ordered activities reflect penance.)
  3. Wesley and the doctrine of grace: From the point of view of history of ideas, Wesley's theology is an important effort at bridging the gap between Luther's notion of grace and the older Roman Catholic (and Anglican) notion of grace. He wanted to find a way that could avoid the severity of Ronald Knox and Calvin, and yet he wanted it to allow perserverence of the saints. I.e. he was filling a need he felt in the Anglican doctrine.
  4. Wesley and psychology: Hartley had been one of the first to argue that the simuli one had influenced the organism of the brain. Well, Wesley was erudite, and he knew these theories. Although contemporary Methodists play all this down considerably, the first noticeable characteristic of the movement was its emphasis on regularity and strict method in ordinary practice.

There are many other things to say as well. Whether the present article is hagiographic or not, I won't say, but I will say that it's somewhat incomplete in comparison to what could be said about his general context. Geogre 04:20, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Family History (dubious)

"The Wesleys were of ancient Anglo-Saxons|Anglo-Saxon lineage, the family history being traced backward to the time of Athelstan, when Guy Wesley, or Wellesley, was created a thegn|thane." I removed this from the article because, I am sorry to say, it is impossible. HeartofaDog 21:23, 15 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] favor?

I have just added a new section to Judaism and Christianity on "love." It is just a stub of a section, hopefully others will add more about the Jewish notion. But I know that my characterization of the Christian notion is at best wildly incomplete. Perhaps among the contributors to this page there are some who could go over it and add whatever additional o, the Christian point of view. I also added a long quote from Maimonides to the section on Heaven and Hell; in fact, I did a rewrite a week or two ago. I know the Jewish position is well-represented but again I am concerned that in the process the Christian view may appear misrepresented or at least underrepresented. So, I'd be grateful if someone checked and made sure the Christian view(s) are accurately and sufficiently represented. Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 20:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Influence in the UK

Found this reference to him preaching in a local farm house, but have a feeling its addition is probably unnecessary, so posted it here for an editor with more time to review! EVOCATIVEINTRIGUE TALKTOME | EMAILME | IMPROVEME 15:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Enthusiasm and Persecution

There is no mention of his being charged with enthusiasm and why this was done. Nor any mention of his preaching against his idea of enthusiasm. Also, for one who has read his journal, the section on persecution seems very thin.--Niceguy2all 04:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

Hi, I'm a member of the Hebrew Wiki, and I would like to translate this article. If anyone can tell me, how you pronounce Wesley (Wesli, Wizli, or Wisli), I'd be grateful.

Thank you. Elizabeth

I think your first choice would be the closest. Pollinator 02:15, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, pollinator Elizabeth

Vowels would probably be Segol and hireq yod 64.229.11.224 21:18, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Glossary Appropriate?

Over a number of years I published to a daily email subscription list vignettes and anecdotes about John Wesley. At one time there were over 1200 subscribers. The project was named "Days of Wesley".

For some time I have been converting those emails into glossary-like entries with a broad range of topics: all the major topics of JW's life are covered, plus many other not so well known topics which were culled from reading his entire journal and letters. Things like, JWs problems with women, his times of depression and doubt, his founding of credit unions, pharmacy dispensaries, writing and dispensing books on subjects of all sorts, there is a large section on the turbulence (persecution) of the 1740s, his problems with the Moravians . . . Truly the list goes on and on. I have currently compiled over 400 entries and see the collection growing to 800 or so before it is finished.

My question is "Is a glossary-like style of information" appropriate for an encyclopedic publication? (Currently there is an alphabetical list of all topics which link to the corresponding article.) Or, is there some other project that might better serve as a host for this material?

Conradarch 00:42, 27 March 2007 (UTC)Conrad Archer

The nature of an encyclopedia is more of a summary than a collection of vignettes or a glossary (see WP:NOT), and so while an external link to a website with this material would be welcome under WP:EL, I don't think including here in its entirety is appropriate. However, some of the more important of these entries could certainly find a place in the article, particularly if they come with source citations. You might try Wikiquote or Wikisource if it is primarily source material. --Flex (talk|contribs) 01:21, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Date of Wesley's Conversion?

The article claims

Leading Wesley scholars point to 1725 as the date of Wesley's conversion.

However, Wesley himself relates this[1]:

In my return to England, January, 1738, being in imminent danger of death, and very uneasy on that account, I was strongly convinced that the cause of that uneasiness was unbelief, and that the gaining a true, living faith was the one thing needful for me. But still I fixed not this faith on its right object: I meant only faith in God, not faith in or through Christ. Again, I knew not that I was wholly void of this faith; but only thought I had not enough of it. So that when Peter Bohler, whom God prepared for me as soon as I came to London, affirmed of true faith in Christ, (which is but one,) that it had those two fruits inseparably attending it, “dominion over sin, and constant peace from a sense of forgiveness,” I was quite amazed, and looked upon it as a new gospel...In the evening I went very unwillingly to a society in Aldersgate Street, where one was reading Luther's preface to the Epistle to the Romans. About a quarter before nine, while he was describing the change which God works in the heart through faith in Christ, I felt my heart strangely warmed. I felt I did trust in Christ, Christ alone, for salvation; and an assurance was given me that he had taken away my sins, even mine, and saved me from the law of sin and death.

So it could be reasonably argued that Wesley himself would date his conversion from 1738. Thoughts? jrcagle 21:00, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

I do not know if your source is reliable but if it is reliable then it should be changed. Do not edit the article until you get more oppinions though:) Shalom:)--James, La gloria è a dio 19:07, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tyerman reference

There is a mention of Wesley's biographer, Tyerman, but there is no reference attached to the Charterhouse experience. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.120.22.230 (talk) 05:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Methodist work group

There is now a proposal for a WikiProject group, possibly initially a subproject of Wikipedia:WikiProject Christianity, to deal with articles relating to the Methodist churches at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Methodism. Anyone interested in taking part in such a group should indicate their interest there. Thank you. John Carter (talk) 15:22, 6 March 2008 (UTC)