Talk:John W. Donaldson

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An individual covered by or significantly related to this article, John W. Donaldson, has edited Wikipedia as JohnandHolly (talk · contribs)

[edit] Defection

To Sam Sloan: I don't remember seeing any newspaper articles saying that a political defection had taken place. In fact I remember interviews with the Donaldsons where they claimed the opposite. There may have been some newspapers that used the word "defection" carelessly, i.e. without political implications. I'm ok with mentioning that, if the Donaldsons' denial of political motives is also mentioned. If you want to say there was a political defection, you need to cite a publication precisely per WP:V.

The most extensive coverage I remember was in Inside Chess magazine at the time of the incident. The article had a title something like "Knight Takes Queen at Olympiad", which I remember because it was clever. However, I don't have a copy of the article at this time. If you've got access to back issues of Inside Chess you can quote from and cite that article, that would great. Phr 01:58, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm not Sam Sloan, but I have found some articles where the emigration is described as a defection.

• Malcolm Pein on the Bled Olympiad 2002
• The Hindu describes it as a defection.

I don't know all that much about the relationship between the US and USSR during the 1980s, but it was not cordial and movement between the two sides is probably accurately described as "defection". I myself am not interested in getting into any edit war over this however. Sjakkalle (Check!) 12:40, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

I don't see any indication in those links that it was a political defection. I'm not saying "defection" is a completely incorrect word, but that it has overtones that make it misleading in the article, especially since the article gives just the barest description of what happened. Remember Sam's edit says "it was a political move". There is no evidence given of that, and I haven't found any such evidence anywhere. I'm fine with "defection" if the rest of the details are given, including EA's return to the USSR in May 1989, and the interviews where the Donaldsons disclaimed any political motivation. The person Sam quotes below also specifically described "defection" as meaning a change in political allegiance (not merely an illegal departure), something that is not in evidence here.

Basically I saw switching "defection" to "elopement" etc. as a quick way to prevent the article from misleading, while putting off the larger amount of work needed to research citeable sources for the missing parts of the story. Phr 16:30, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

> Paul Rubin, you lost all your credibility when you retconned a well-known, universally > accepted historical fact that is still true even today. > > How sad that someone can change what was essentially a very dangerous escape from a totalitarian government (DEFECTION) and call it emigrating. You are not an immigrant when you don't have any LEGAL documents or authority to emigrate > from your homeland (SOVIET UNION). You are at best an illegal alien, but > since the USSR had specific laws against such actions, EA was a DEFECTOR. > > So all of your craven activities will only change history and > the truth in the minds of those few who are so ignorant as to rely on > Wikipedia for their historical facts.

Very well put, thank you.

Elena Akhlimovskaya, with the help of John Donalsdon, escaped from the Soviet Union, a highly illegal and dangerous act, especially since Greece, where the defection initiated, had a history of left-wing governments and was not at all a reliable partner with the West.

It was amazing that they made it out. Many defectors who were apprehended and sent back during that time were sent to the Gulags and never seen or heard from again. Sam Sloan 13:54, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

You are quoting someone from Usenet who specifically described defection as a change in political allegiance, not merely as an illegal departure. The article you cited in the edit summary says exactly the same thing in its first sentence. And you yourself said in an edit summary that "it was a political move", something for which you haven't produced a shred of evidence. I'll stop reverting if you'll accept a mention in the article that EA denied political motivation for departing the USSR. I'd also want the term attributed to a newspaper article (one of the ones Sjkalle linked is fine). Actually it would be better to put that discussion into the article Elena Donaldson rather than here. Phr 16:30, 23 March 2006 (UTC)