Talk:John Vincent Atanasoff

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    Contents

    [edit] Zuse

    and no mentioning at all of Konrad Zuse ? first functional tape-stored-program-controlled computer (Z3) in 1941

    [edit] Dates of Life

    I added the dates of birth and death back into the first paragraph even through these are now available in the info box as well. Formatting similar to Albert Einstein. The info box is a very nice touch though. Good work!

    • Ok. I was formatting similar to Douglas Adams. I think they look fine in both places. --Ben Brockert < 01:50, Dec 28, 2004 (UTC)

    [edit] Nonprogrammable versus electronic

    How about non-programmable, electronic, digital computer? That's what it was. The reason the ENIAC is still regarded as the first computer is because it's the first programmable (well Turing complete, to be precise) computer. Atanasoff did impressive, significant work, but the sweeping generalization first electronic digital computer ought to be modified with non-programmable or turing-complete in order to be most accurate and NPOV'ed. The sweeping statement sounds like something the John Atanasoff website might claim in their zeal to promote their man.

    In any case, I love the info box (as I said before), but there is no need to revert Icairns change to reflect more factual accuracy. I have merged both of your changes. This makes the claim as simple as possible, but no simpler. There is no desire for an edit/revert war here, however. I'm just an outside observer just trying to be in the spirit of NPOV.

    Happy editing.

    -SocratesJedi 02:18, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

    Or alternatively, we could just use no capation or just a caption like "John Atanasoff in XXXX" like Albert Einstein's formatting (as I quoted above earlier). That might be an elegant way to deal with it and just let them read the article's text for a brief summary of the ABC-ENIAC dispute? I think it's a good solution. Thoughts? -SocratesJedi 02:23, 2 Jan 2005 (UTC)

    I would claim that "electronic digital computer" is not overreaching, but accurate as a basic description. ENIAC, the machine most often cited in place of the ABC, was programmable in only the most rudimentary sense, requiring re-wiring to re-program. It didn't use a stored (paper tape) program like the Harvard Mark I relay logic computer, for example. And ENIAC used decimal rather than the more versatile ABC binary design. But I would agree that the more detailed description certainly should be in the text for clarity. --Blainster 05:39, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    The distinction between the ENIAC and the ABC I thought I had learned while helping rewrite this is that of the Turing completeness of the ENIAC while the ABC seems more specific to solving Diff Eq's, wasn't it? I'm actually slightly concerned that the textbox is a bit too wordy right now, but I'm happy to leave it as it is until someone finds a better or more elegant solution to le problem de textbox. Anyway, if you have better ideas, be bold. -SocratesJedi | Talk 07:01, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    The anonymous February 8 2005 "multiple additions" was me. Thought I was logged in. I moved the 'non-programmable' bit to a subordinate place for now--Blainster 10:19, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    → Seems the primary contributor has a real issue with Mauchly/Eckert? Probably not appropriate for NPOV -- after all, Atanasoff's machine was never even fully functional (which is why no patent), and the final ENIAC was dramatically different from the ABC. Atanasoff never even stepped up to make claims until the Honeywell lawyers cajoled him. Because this article is about him, his accomplishments should be championed, but not exaggerated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Juela (talk • contribs) 06:42, August 14, 2006 (UTC)
    This thread is over one year old. Your points have been addressed in this and associated articles on ENIAC and the ABC. --Blainster 16:36, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] George Stibitz references needed

    Since we have something about the ENIAC controversy over the first person to actually build a computer, perhaps we should also have something about the controversy involving George Stibitz too? He designed a calculator that worked via relay switches which based on my preliminary research was built almost a full two years before Atanasoff released the ABC. I'll update this myself in a day or so (no time now), but if you're interested please do it yourself! I found information initially at: [1] ... So. Knock yourself out. -SocratesJedi | Talk 03:47, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] American-Bulgarian

    Perhaps you can explain why the country order is in this sequence. Anyway, Atanasoff was born in the USA, so I redacted that term and put a note about his Bulgarian father in the awards section where it explains the attention from Bulgaria. --Blainster 11:19, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

    VMORO has reverted to Bulgarian-American without explanation. In the USA people born there are not usually regarded as hyphenated, unless there is a particular cultural context. That use is normally for immigrants (otherwise we would all be hyphenates!). This is not a big deal with me, and I see that he is frequently into revert wars elsewhere, so I will let it rest. --Blainster 22:41, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

    [edit] Odd Points of Interest

    1) Did anyone read the bio of Nobel laureate Kary Mullis, who described his invention of the PCR reaction while cruising the Pacific Coast highway? Well John Atanasoff thought up his computer design in an incredibly similar fashion. Frustrated by his inability to solve the computer puzzles, he hopped in his car and drove absently drove ~200 miles in a frigid cold night from Ames past the Illinois border to a roadhouse. Here he stopped and once inside everything crystallized: the binary logic circuits, the regenerative refreshing of capacitor memory, etc. He realized that digital circuits were less affected by voltage fluctuations (errors) than analog circuits would be.

    2) During John Mauchly's testimony at the patent trial, he cited his invention of a railway flasher as evidence that he had previously thought about a binary logic device!

    Would either of these stories (from the Mollenhoff bio of Atanasoff) be of interest here? --Blainster 11:19, 8 Feb 2005 (UTC)

    Certianly interesting to me. Since they have cites, they would be good additions to the article. —Ben Brockert (42) UE News 04:00, Feb 10, 2005 (UTC)
    Yeah, just be sure to add the book under references if you add those stories. -SocratesJedi | Talk 04:08, 10 Feb 2005 (UTC)
    The Burks references make much of the railroad flasher. It was one of several extant Mauchly constructions presented at trial as the only remaining evidences of Mauchly's contemporary thinking about digital circuits; this and the other devices from the 1930s exist today (and still work!). Mauchly did not claim to have "invented" this device as Blainster writes above. Flip-flops and counter circuits were both widely known prior art in digital electronics in 1940 (having been invented starting in 1919): it is prima facie inaccurate to state that John Mauchly was unaware of digital electronics principles prior to meeting Atanasoff, and such was not the ruling of Judge Larson in Honeywell v. Sperry Rand. Robert K S 06:09, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Atanasoff and the NOL Computer

    The popular biographies have glossed over some interesting parts of A's activities during the war. Von Neumann got him to head a project to build another computer, for NOL. Mauchly was actually a consultant to this project, and the information definitely flowed from Mauchly, not to him. The hardware lead on the project, Calvin Mooers, tells the story in the Annals. So I question the existing sentence in the wiki: " Mauchly visited Atanasoff multiple times in Washington during 1943 and discussed Atanasoff's computing theories, but did not mention that he was working on a computer project himself. Mauchly's own government work, he said, was too highly secret to reveal." Atanasoff had top security clearance.

    1. "The Computer Project at the Naval Ordnance Laboratory," IEEE Annals of the History of Computing, vol. 23, no. 2, pp. 51-67, April-June, 2001. (details Atanasoff's well-funded but unsuccessful second computer project in 1945-1946)

    ________

    So I've updated the page to include the NOL computer.

    Calvin Mooers goes into depth about A and M. He describes why they never built anything at NOL in 1945. Atanasoff was basically evading making any decisions on what type of computer to make. Apparently the engineers would ask for a decision and he would deliberately change the subject (Sometimes to the topic of making goat cheese, he recalls). A. never talked about his ABC to the staff at NOL, saying it was out-dated. I tend to agree. Von Neumann was not happy when he found out that Mooers had deserted the project. He pulled the plug.

    Meanwhile, in reading about Atanasoff, I've learned that he was a very prolific inventor and had dozens of patents (just not any in computers.) For example in 1937 he invented a way to measure the viscosity of eggs without breaking them - using a pendulum. Should this be in the Wiki? --Zebbie 15:35, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Alteration to Opening Paragraph

    I do not agree that Atanasoff can be considered the father of the electronic digital computer in any real sense - if you consult sources other than Burks, the arguments against may become clear. I will reference my moderation to the opening paragraph in a couple of days when I have the necessary books to hand.--Deknyff 17:46, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

    Clearly there is some difference of opinion, primarily with regard to whether the definition of the term "computer" requires programability, or did sixty years ago. But there are plenty of references other than Burks to support the assertion, from both detailed sources (Mollenhoff) and general references (World Almanac and Encarta). --Blainster 21:14, 28 July 2006 (UTC)
    I found and corrected a number of problems with the opening paragraph. In no sense was Atanasoff a "prominent computer scientist" in his lifetime, despite his invention of the first electronic digital computer at Iowa State and his brief tenure as head of an unsuccessful computer construction project for the Naval Ordnance Laboratory during World War II. The occupation "computer scientist" can't have been said to have existed in the mid-1940s; both Atanasoff and Mauchly are better described as physicists, which more accurately portrays their breadth of interests, researches, educations, employment positions, and job titles. With regards to the above remark, I agree with Blainster that there are additional sources that may refer to Atanasoff with the honorific "father of the computer"--but these sources may not hold to the standard of objectivity and neutrality we'd like to preserve in Wikipedia; the term "widely" presents problems I won't get into. Suffice it to say that more accurate and encyclopedic would be to cite the Honeywell v. Sperry Rand decision, wikilink to it, and use the judge's own language. Finally, no human can be the "father" of a computer in any literal sense. Would Clifford Berry be the "mother"? Robert K S 05:53, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Parentage

    It should be mentioned that ONLY his father was Bulgarian... It's HILARIOUS to put an USA citizen on the page that represents Bulgaria, come one now... you guys must have another brain to replace this scientist... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mastermindsro (talk • contribs) 2007-04-29T12:23:57.

    [edit] Fair use rationale for Image:John Atanasoff.gif

    Image:John Atanasoff.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

    Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

    If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 06:50, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

    Addressed, but could be improved by uploader with more specific information. Robert K S 08:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Why Rock Island

    According to Iowa State lore, Dr. Atanasoff had his binary epiphany in Rock Island because it was the closest place to Ames that offered liquor by the drink (i.e., bars) in those days. The story is right there on his memorial plaque, but I don't know how one cites a plaque. Cranston Lamont (talk) 02:57, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] "of Bulgarian origin"/"of Bulgarian ancestry"

    Editors have been repeatedly inserting references to Atanasoff's Bulgarian heritage in the lead of this article. First, the facts. Atanasoff was born near Hamilton, New York and raised in Osteen and Brewster, Florida before moving to Ames, Iowa and later to Maryland. He spoke with a soft Floridan accent throughout his life. Atanasoff had never been to Bulgaria, except once as an old man, in the midst of a larger European vacation to Germany, Yugoslavia, and Greece in 1970, when he spent a week in Sofia and another week touring the rest of the country, and the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences presented him with the Order of Cyril and Methodius (Mollenhoff 152). Atanasoff's name was of Bulgarian origin, but Atanasoff can not be said to have been, as Atanasoff was not from Bulgaria.

    Can Atansoff be said to have been of Bulgarian heritage or ancestry? Only paternally: his father John emigrated to the U.S. at the age of 13.

    Atanasoff's Bulgarian heritage is such a miniscule part of his identity as a physicist, a teacher, and an inventor that it does not bear mentioning in the lead. Having a father who was from Bulgaria isn't what made Atanasoff notable; it is an incidental, not a defining, detail. I have no problem with a section of the article mentioning Atanasoff's late-life recognition by Bulgaria and his travels there, or his father's origin being mentioned. But the lead sentence? Pure boosterism. Robert K S (talk) 04:30, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

    User:Monshuai has re-added the "Bulgarian ancestry" to the lead once more with the following edit summaries: "Actually in his biography John Atanasoff states that he is a Bulgarian first and foremost. He was also a member of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences and a recipient of the C&M order. Furthermore Bulgaria was the first country to recognize him as the inventor of the digital computer. At the ceremony he said he was proud to be Bulgarian and honoured by the recognition. Defining!" What JVA said in his biography or in a speech for a Bulgarian audience (please produce citations for these, by the way) doesn't define his notability. He isn't notable for Bulgaria finding him to be notable. My problem with stating flatly and without qualification that Atanasoff was "of Bulgarian ancestry" is that it simply isn't true; Atanasoff's mother was not of Bulgarian ancestry. Since his ancestry is complicated by this fact, it can't be truncated and placed in the lead. Again, we should take no issue with the article describing Atansaoff's later-life identification with the Bulgarian people, who were kind to him and continue to cherish him as a national hero, if such an identification can be properly cited. But any boosterism Atanasoff may have himself displayed must not be transplanted into an encyclopedia article about him. Robert K S (talk) 03:16, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
    User:Apcbg reverts again with this edit summary: "Being Jewish American isn’t what made Leonard Bernstein notable; being Italian-American isn’t what makes Nancy Pelosi notable; yet that appears in their articles' leads." Let's deal with Pelosi first. Her lead sentence is currently "Nancy Patricia D'Alesandro Pelosi (born 1940-03-26) is currently the Speaker of the United States House of Representatives." This is a fitting lead, as it states simply what Pelosi is notable for without padding the sentence with irrelevant fluff. Only later, in the third paragraph of the lead, does it mention her ethnicity: "With her election as Speaker she is the first woman, the first Californian and the first Italian-American to hold the Speakership." Here, the context is significant; she is notable for each of these firsts. A lead for Pelosi that was written something like "Nancy Pelosi is the Italian-American current Speaker of the House" muddles the point with irrelevant detail. As for Bernstein (whose lead sentence reads "Leonard Bernstein (1918-08-25 – 1990-10-14) was a Jewish American conductor, composer, author, music lecturer and pianist."), his upbringing in a Jewish family is not irrelevant to his work output (Kaddish Symphony, e.g.) and his career (Israel Philharmonic Orchestra, e.g.), and it is only one modifier that does not require extensive qualification. Leonard Bernstein is very much notable for being Jewish and for the influence that his heritage exerted on his music. [2] By contrast, his "Bulgarianishness" was not a factor in Atanasoff's work or career; he was not "raised Bulgarian"; he was not the "first Bulgarian" to accomplish any feat for which he was not also the first person; and his ancestry is complicated enough that it requires a caveat that taken all together distracts from the point. The Bulgarian-boosters don't seem to get it. This article is about writing a clear, concise description of John Atanasoff, it is not about assigning credit to a Bulgarian "native son" (whose "nativeness" requires more explanation than a single adjective in order for it to be completely truthful), and, by extension, to Bulgaria. I've come up with a lot of good reasons why mentioning Atansoff's ethnic heritage doesn't belong in the lead sentence, but those who keep restoring this absurdity haven't offered one good reason why it should be there, because in order to do so, they must answer this question: How did the fact that Atanasoff's father was from Bulgaria contribute to Atanasoff's invention of the Atanasoff-Berry Computer? Robert K S (talk) 13:55, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
    One more point on this matter and then I'll have said enough. For those who are not aware, the Wikipedia Manual of Style has a clear guideline that speaks to this very issue. It says that the lead should mention the subject's nationality but that ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Robert K S (talk) 14:20, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
    Your reasoning is too hair-splitting. This article is not about the Atanasoff-Berry Computer, it's about Atanasoff. I don't say his ethnic ancestry must be in the first line, but your removing it from the lead section altogether is going too far, and seems to have more to do with your arguments with another user in this talk page here, and with your perception of possible Bulgarian-boosting rather than with the issue at hand. Indeed, you have failed to explain why don't you apply your approach to others i.e. How did the fact that Pelosi's parents were Italian-American contribute to her becoming Speaker of the House? How come Schwarzenegger's being Austrian-born is okay to appear in the very first sentence in his article? Some 'Austrian-boosters' probably? Sorry Robert, I am not going to reversals but, in my opinion, your double standards and attitudes are distinctly biased on this occasion. Apcbg (talk) 14:29, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
    Schwarzenegger's Austrian birth is both relevant as his nationality and for his political career as it disqualifies him from the presidency per the U.S. Constitution. (It is also part of his overall superficial identity--his accent, his looks, etc. It would have been notable even had he never gone into politics. He was famously told, while still in his bodybuilder years, that he could never become a box office star because American audiences would not accept a foreigner in lead roles.) The Pelosi question is the wrong one; the point is that her Italian-American heritage did not hinder her from becoming Speaker of the House. Ethnicity and religion have always been of notable importance in American politics, because politicians in democracies must represent their constituencies in order to be elected to office, and the traditional constituencies are ethnic and religious. Persons from minorities ethnic, religious, or otherwise have a more difficult time achieving office. Ethnicity became less of an issue for European ethnicity constituencies (Irish, German, etc.) in the latter part of the 20th century as European immigration abated, but is becoming more of an issue for growing ethnic constituencies like Mexican-Americans (see, for example, Bill Richardson, whose article's first major section is rightfully "Lineage", or Mitt Romney, for whom "Religious background" is the second major section). In any case I would oppose mention of Pelosi's ethnic heritage in the lead sentence or lead paragraph of her article, despite the fact that she talks about her Italian family and upbringing in her stump speeches, because it would be a distracting detail until it was put in the context of her being the first Italian-American Speaker. I think I outlined this point pretty clearly above. I don't have any "arguments with another user in this talk page". I seek the same standards for all Wikipedia pages. Robert K S (talk) 14:59, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
    Robert K S, going by your logic Atanasoff's Bulgarian ancestry is relevant as Bulgaria was the first country to officially recognize his achievements. This reaches much further than your comparitively irrelevant statements regarding politcians whose ethnicity is defining since that's what got them into office. That is in no way even remotely as important as the fact that Atanasoff's ethnic background got him the Bulgarian support, both political and scientific, to be awarded the C & M medal for his achievements at an official ceremony in Bulgaria. Furthermore, this happened in the middle of the Cold War, and was regarded at the time as a gesture of scientific solidarity and peace that reached beyond the iron curtain in order to recognize the achievement of a beloved member of the Bulgarian diaspora. It was symbolic of the permeability between east and west and those ancestral ties that bound people across national borders and political spheres. That said, I will advise you to be very careful, for I deal with your type quite often and utilize the services of the Wikipedia administrators to overlook biased actions that do not represent NPV. Finally, when someone like Atanasoff defined himself as Bulgarian first and foremost at the award ceremony, it is clear that you are not the one who then decides that this is not important. As stated, his ethnic background stimulated his ethnic Bulgarian nation to support and honour his achievements when the USA still had not done so. It took the latter country another 20 years to follow in the footsteps of Bulgaria regarding this very defining act! This reality makes his ethnic Bulgarian ancestry exceptionally relevant, notable, defining and for all argumentative intents and purposes, crystallizing...--Monshuai (talk) 23:01, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
    The above by Monshuai has a number of fine points and a few confused statements. I'll deal with them one-by-one:
    • "Atanasoff's Bulgarian ancestry is relevant as Bulgaria was the first country to officially recognize his achievements." I agree that Bulgaria was the first country to officially recognize Atanasoff and that such should be mentioned in the article. But is Atanasoff notable for having been recognized in the style of so many Paris Hiltons who are "famous for being famous"? No--he is notable for his work on the ABC and for his involvement as a witness in Honeywell v. Sperry Rand, which invalidated a patent that, if found enforcable, would have changed the face of the computer industry, as it would have given Sperry Rand and IBM a dual monopoly on the invention of the electronic digital computer. People have not written books about Atanasoff because he spent a couple of weeks in Bulgaria giving speeches, or because his father was from Bulgaria.
    • "...irrelevant statements regarding politcians..." All of my statements involving politicians were intended to helpfully explain why User:Apcbg's counterexamples were not applicable. I agree that they are not directly relevant to how Atanasoff's ethnicity should be handled in this article. The "since that's what got them into office" statement shows a complete misunderstanding of what I wrote, actually inverting my argument. To repeat, from the Manual of Style: ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.
    • "...was regarded at the time as a gesture of scientific solidarity and peace that reached beyond the iron curtain in order to recognize the achievement of a beloved member of the Bulgarian diaspora..." If such a statement can be attributed and sourced (i.e., who said such a thing and where is it written?) then it would be a good thing to put in the article (minus the "beloved", which is POV, unless part of a direct quote, from Sendov or whomever else). Trying to compress such an idea into a statement of Atanasoff's ethnicity in the lead sentence, however, is both a disservice to the expression of the fuller idea and reads as boosterism ("Yay Bulgaria!"). I would also oppose any addition of such material that was unsourced and unattributed. "Was regarded", without saying who did the regarding, is pure peacock.
    • "I deal with your type quite often and utilize the services of the Wikipedia administrators" We have a disagreement about how the lead sentence should be written. The way to resolve it is through discussion, which is what we're doing here. If you believe Wikipedia administrators will be able to assist and provide interpretation of the MoS section I've quoted, then I think you should bring this discussion to their attention.
    • "...when someone like Atanasoff defined himself as Bulgarian first and foremost at the award ceremony, it is clear that you are not the one who then decides that this is not important." It is quite the contrary. Michael Jackson's lead does not read "Michael Jackson is the King of Pop"; Howard Stern's lead does not read "Howard Stern is the King of All Media". Self-proclamation is not a standard for an encyclopedia to follow. (Did John Kennedy's "Ich bin ein Berliner" make him a Berliner?) I have no problem with a section in the article that discusses Atansasoff's identification with the Bulgarian people--properly cited--but Atanasoff's opinion of himself doesn't determine the lead sentence of his article.
    • "This reality makes his ethnic Bulgarian ancestry exceptionally relevant, notable, defining and for all argumentative intents and purposes..." Well, again, I ask, is Atanasoff's notable achievement that Bulargia gave him a medal, or is it that he invented a computer? Winston Churchill was awarded honorary American citizenship, but is he notable for that, or is he notable for his role as British Prime Minister during WWII? Notability is determined by the acts and accomplishments that celebrated individuals were awarded for, not for the awards themselves.
    The article could be much improved with a section about Atanasoff's Bulgarian recognition. Why not channel your energies into writing that, rather than battling for Bulgarian boosterism in ways that are glaringly in violation Wikipedia guidelines? You seem to be an expert on this aspect on Atanasoff, and I might be able to assist. Cheers, Robert K S (talk) 05:37, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
    Poor try, Robert. I'm not wasting my time, sorry you are unable to look objectively at your one-sided approach. Your desperate effort to demonstrate how special the cases of Pelosi and Schwarzenegger are really amuses me, for those were just two names that came to my mind; hundreds of articles on Americans of various origins mention ethnic ancestry in the lead section, often in the very first sentence indeed. So much for your POV endeavour. Apcbg (talk) 12:07, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
    Pelosi and Schwarzenegger aren't special cases--they follow the MoS guidlines. Austrian was Schwarzenegger's nationality: he was born there. Italian isn't mentioned in the first sentence of Pelosi's article, and when it is mentioned, in the third paragraph of the lead, it's with regard to her being the first Italian-American Speaker of the House. Robert K S (talk) 15:10, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
    Yes, and Pelosi is not Austrian, and Schwarzenegger is not Speaker of the House. And theirs, like hundreds of other articles on Americans of various origins mention ethnic ancestry in the lead section -- following the MoS guidelines no doubt -- yet Atanasoff's Bulgarian ancestry has no place in the lead. Your pretended explanations won't fool a baby. Apcbg (talk) 15:46, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
    You appear not to understand the difference between nationality and ethnicity. Robert K S (talk) 17:41, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
    Sure. The difference is that they are all US nationals. Apcbg (talk) 18:13, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
    If you find articles where you think the rule is being misapplied, you can post something to my talk page, and I'll go and argue the cases over there, too. The pages you mention are at present in conformity with the guidelines. (Austrian is a nationality for Schwarzenegger, and Pelosi's ethnicity is mentioned with regards to something notable about her--as it should be so in the Atanasoff article as well, in some deeper section, not in the first sentence.) That the guidelines may not be followed on some other pages is not a reason that they should not be followed here. Cheers, Robert K S (talk) 18:21, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
    I know of no such articles. The rule is well applied in all of them, it's only here that you are attempting to abuse the rule in order to suit your POV that Atanasoff's ancestry should be removed from the lead section. Apcbg (talk) 18:31, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
    If conciseness, relevance, and anti-boosterism are POVs, they are POVs I am happy to espouse. Cut the fat, get the to point, and don't use articles to further nationalistic agendas--that's what I'm about. Atanasoff was a physicist who built a computer and was involved in a notable commercial court battle. The Bulgarian recognition was an epiphenomenon. It's worth mentioning in the article, but it doesn't make Atanasoff's ethnicity directly relevant to his notability. I've said this six ways from Sunday and I'm still not sure which part of my logic you disagree with. Robert K S (talk) 18:59, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
    I'm not that liberal in applying labels or I might have said that yours is rather a 'nationalistic anti-Bulgarian boosterism'. Relevance? What's the relevance of your bringing in Bulgarian recognition in your response to my comment? I never even mentioned Bulgarian recognition. Your bringing it in is fallacy not logic — surely Bulgarian recognition is no reason for removing Atanasoff's ancestry from the lead section. Apcbg (talk) 20:25, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
    There's no anti-Bulgarianism in my observance of the MoS guidelines. I've repeatedly said I think Atanasoff's Bulgarian ties and recognition deserve deeper coverage in the article. I might even be able to assist in improving such sections. I was referring to the mobius-strip reasoning elaborated by Monshuai above in bringing up the Bulgarian recognition. According to Monshuai, Atanasoff's ethnicity is directly relevant to his notability because he was recognized by the Bulgarians for inventing the ABC. No, I say: he is not notable because the Bulgarians gave him a medal. He is notable for the thing that they gave him the medal for. If the Bulgarians never gave him a medal, this article would still exist. If he hadn't invented the ABC, it wouldn't. Any mention of Bulgarian anything in the first sentence of this article places undue weight on something incidental and can only serve to obfuscate and confuse. The new reader to this article shouldn't have to ask himself within the first sentence, "Wait, was this guy Bulgarian? Did he make something Bulgarian?"--he wasn't, and he didn't, and Bulgaria-boosting shouldn't be the focus of this article. Robert K S (talk) 21:27, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
    Actually the recognition given to Atanasoff by Bulgaria helped him win the patent dispute. The Bulgarian authorities researched his achievements and created a huge array of evidence to support his claim that he was the inventor of the world's first digital computer. This compilation of ethno-politically motivated evidence was used in the patent related dispute. Furthermore, it prompted the USA to do the same much later when he recieved a medal by George Bush Sr. In essence Atanasoff's Bulgarian ancestry helped him get the recognition he deserved. This is not about whether Bulgaria per se helped him invent the computer, but about the fact that his Bulgarian ancestry helped him achieve the status and official recognition that no one, including the American courts, would give him until the Bulgarian nation decided to lend a helping hand. Remember, the People's Court of Bulgaria recognized him as the winner in the patent dispute in order for him to be eligible for the order. As Monshuai said, this is indeed defining and notable without doubt, because this article may very well not have been written about Atanasoff if the "other" party had won the patent case without the support of the Bulgarians, their government and supreme court. Rober K S, I am not a Bulgarian so I don't know what your issues are with these people, nor do I car all that much, and I'm sure you are not a bad guy. However, what I can say is that it seems that you have something against the Bulgarians and therefore trying to hide Atanasoff's ancestral background. I'm sure you realize that this could get you into trouble since your arguments do seem biased and in my opinion not nearly as solid as those of Monshuai a few paragraphs ago. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.147.112.124 (talk) 03:46, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
    Gug. For the last time, I think the article could be improved with a section about the Atanasoff-Bulgaria connection, including his ancestry (properly explained, not just stuffed into the lead as boosterism), his recognition, and anything else that can be properly sourced. There's nothing anti-Bulgarian in keeping a lead that is in line with MoS and sticks to matters relevant to the subject's notability. Please provide a source re: the Bulgarians researching Atanasoff's case and assisting with providing evidence in HvSR. It's news to me and strikes me as a theory of the utmost unlikelihood given that the Bulgarians wouldn't have had access to any evidence that wasn't available to attorneys scouring file cabinets in Ambler, Ames, Philadelphia, and Maryland. Robert K S (talk) 07:30, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

    (unindent)This discussion thread went too messy; I wished Bulgarian recognition were deiscussed separately as it certainly can be no sound reason for removing Atanasoff's ancestry from the lead section.

    Robert, your insistence that it's appropriate for hundreds of American biographical articles to have ancestry mentioned in the lead section, albeit not so for Atanasoff, demonstrates nothing but your biased attitude. As that attitude has already been amply demonstrated in your comments above, there is no need to continue. Subject closed. Apcbg (talk) 08:03, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

    As per MoS, ancestry should be mentioned in the lead of biographical subjects only for whom it is directly relevant to the subject's notability. I assert that Atanasoff's ancestry bears no direct relevance to his notability as a computer inventor and subsequent patent trial witness. Those who assert that it does have confused Atanasoff's recognition for his accomplishments with the accomplishments themselves as a reason for his notability. Apcbg's position seems to be that it's fine to include ancestry (which, for most Americans, including Atanasoff, is not as cut-and-dry as one national heritage) in the lead of biographical articles willy-nilly. The problem with this is that it promotes "claiming" and boosterism, which degrade the presentation of encyclopedic material. Robert K S (talk) 08:20, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
    Please do not distort my position. I never wrote if 'it's fine to include ancestry'. I just observed the fact that ancestry is included in such leads (with less than cut-and-dry cases of three relevant nations involved too). Your idea that Atanasoff should be excepted to suit your selective boosterism sensitivity is ridiculous. I am really not wasting more time, and I trust that the present aberration would be corrected earlier or later as some reasonably neutral editors get involved; happens in Wikipedia all the time you know. Bye, Apcbg (talk) 08:41, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
    Sorry if I misrepresented what you said. Wikipedia is a work in progress and it's possible that there are many other articles that do not conform to the MoS. You can post links to them to my talk page and I'll bring up the issue there, too. I've already explained why the examples you provided conform to MoS:
    • His being brought up in a Jewish household is directly relevant to Leonard Bernstein's notability as he wrote (lots of) Jewish music and conducted an orchestra in Israel. Atanasoff did not make anything "Bulgarian" or do anything notable in Bulgaria, so his ethnicity is not directly relevant to his notability.
    • "Austrian" is a nationality for Arnold Schwarzenegger; he was born there. MoS calls for an individual's nationality to be introduced in the lead of biographical articles. Obviously, for persons of complicated nationality (e.g. those who obtain citizenship in three or more countries throughout their lives), trying to cram all such information in the lead sentence may not be appropriate. In the case of Arnold, "Austrian-born" does not considerably complicate the lead. Maria Callas also fits this pattern. Her nationality is no more complicated than calling her "an American-born Greek". Atanasoff was not born in Bulgaria and was never a citizen of Bulgaria, so his nationality should be appropriately identified in the lead as "American", not "Bulgarian".
    • Nancy Pelosi's ethnicity is not mentioned in the first sentence of her lead, and is only mentioned in the lead at all with reference to a notable achievement (being the first Italian-American Speaker of the House). No such similar reference can be made of Atanasoff. (He was not "the first Bulgarian-American" anything for which he was not also the first person.) Just as I would oppose Nancy Pelosi's lead reading "Nancy Pelosi is the Italian-American Speaker of the House", I oppose Atanasoff's lead reading "John Vincent Atanasoff was a Bulgarian-American physicist".
    I can helpfully keep clarifying this as long as you have doubts or questions about my reasoning. I am disappointed that I have not satisfied you that I am interested in applying the rule across the board in an unbiased way. Robert K S (talk) 09:08, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
    Here's something I posted in the conflict of interest discussion page that showcases Robert K S's biases:
    Unfortunately 'YOU = (plural)' missed the point I was making. In the Nancy Pelosi article it states, "With her election as Speaker, she is the first woman, the first Californian, and the first Italian-American to hold the Speakership." Indeed, the key words are, "[...]first Italian-American[...]" None of you criticized this, nor have you criticized such statements in other articles either. Yet according to your above arguments regarding Atanasoff, one can conclude that Pelosi's Italian background is also not the key to her notability. The fact that she is Italian was not "[...] the reason why [she] did/does great work". That quote and interpretation of MoS comes directly from EdJohnston. Or as Robert K S states, where is the evidence that because of "genetic heritage [...] they [she] were [was] notable for such-and-such accomplishments". Unfortunately his original statement examines Atanasoff's notability only, as he has firmly stated that it does not apply to Pelosi. As you can see I placed the words "[she]" and "[was]" in a direct quote from him in order to showcase his subjectivity by highlighting the fact that he should have applied his opinion and intepretation of rules to the Pelosi article as well, which he instead vehemently defended as an model article that adheres to MoS. That's where his bias is obvious and his anti-Bulgarianism apparent. From his support of the Pelosi article, one can only deduce that he feels Pelosi's genetic heritage is both the agent/catalyst and more importantly the undeniable reason for her achievements and notability. Said another way, he (and the rest of you involved in this herein discussion who support his bias) is/are saying that in fact her Italian heritage is the reason she became a notable human being. Your bias will be neutralized, and others who are indeed neutral will clearly see and at present do agree that the Atanasoff article should and WILL be treated the same way that the articles of other notable personas are treated. I will not allow you or anyone else to demonstrate hypocrisy and variable rules that are applied subjectively 'here and there'... The rules will be the same for each and every article! There are two options at this moment of time: (A) Either those other 'people' articles will be re-edited under the objective lens of a consistent editorial microscope, or (B) the Atanasoff article will have the Bulgarian-American portion included. Pelosi being the first Italian-American speaker is no more pronounced a truth than Atanasoff being the first Bulgarian-American scientist of prominence. He is also the first Bulgarian-American inventor who gained international notability and the first Bulgarian-American to receive the "United States National Medal of Technology, the highest U.S. honour conferred for achievements related to technological progress." Due to his achievements he is also many other Bulgarian-American firsts!--Monshuai (talk) 22:55, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
    why not fix the Nancy Pelosi article instead of repeating the same mistake here? Be BOLD! harlock_jds (talk) 01:30, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
    Re: Monshuai's remarks above, which are a welcome return to good faith discussion of the issue.
    • I'm not going to say anything more about Nancy Pelosi or the others. I've outlined why I think she and the other examples fall within guidelines, so I don't plan on making changes to the other articles. If anyone believes that they are not within guidelines, then yes, as Harlock says, those issues should be taken to their respective articles' talk pages. Boosterism in one article is no justification for boosterism in another article; two wrongs do not make a right.
    • Referring to Atanasoff as a "Bulgarian-American", in the lead or elsewhere, is a statement of limited honesty, as it neglects Atanasoff's maternal lineage. The only completely honest way to handle Atanasoff's ancestry is to say that he had a Bulgarian father. I think the article already does this well. If Atanasoff's mother's ancestors' lineages can be verifiably sourced, they can be added too. (One editor added that she was was of Irish descent, but when I asked that editor what his source was, he told me he had seen it posted to an Irish Nationalism message board [3].)
    • If Atanasoff is indeed the first notable scientist of Bulgarian ancestry, and if such a statement can be attributed and verifiably sourced, I have no problem with such a statement appearing in the article. Does it belong in the lead? I'll leave that up for discussion. Does it belong in the first sentence of the lead? No. Books haven't been written about Atanasoff because he had a Bulgarian father. Books have been written about Atanasoff because he built a computer and testified at a patent trial.
    Robert K S (talk) 02:02, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
    Another interesting note is that i can not find any biographies that calls him a 'Bulgarian-American'... the strongest statement i can find is 'Bulgaria-Descended' (from www.johnatanasoff.com). Honestly i think this may be notable enough to include in the lead off section (reading something like American of Bulgarian descent, not 'Bulgarian-American') if it is true that he is the foremost scientist (or one of the foremost scientists) of Bulgarian descent (which i would agree is the case). harlock_jds (talk) 02:47, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
    johnatanasoff.com is a source with a boosterism agenda: "Modern Bulgarians need, among many other things, a well-grounded national confidence. The source of self-confidence is our history and the talent of people with Bulgarian blood in their veins." [4] Is Atanasoff notable for inventing a computer and testifying in a patent trial, or for having a Bulgarian father? Is the mission of Wikipedia to forge unbiased, neutral-point-of-view content, or to bring self-confidence to Bulgarians? If Atanasoff's Bulgarian descent is to be mentioned, and an Irish nationalist "claims" Atanasoff through his mother, does the lead then become "John Vincent Atanasoff was an American physicist of Bulgarian and Irish descent? If Atanasoff's mother had both Irish and English ancestry, do we now list three ethnicities? The objective way to handle ethnicity, the way that prevents unfettered multiplication of nationality name-checks, the way to keep an article free of boosterism, is to follow the MoS guideline. Robert K S (talk) 05:53, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
    my point was that even a site pushing the Bulgarian/Atanasoff connection didn't refer to him as 'Bulgarian-American' so I don't see how this article could ever do so. As for the rest we'll agree to disagree, clearly the fact he had a Bulgarian ancestor is relevant in his life and i don't mind it being mentioned in the lead (as it is one of the first things you learn about him when reading about him) but i don't feel strongly enough about it to push it into the article, esp since it's mentioned later on. I'm not sure why his mother keeps on coming up... clearly she wasn't a recent immigrant to the US and her ansestory isn't notable enough for even a passing mention in any source i can find (except for how long her family had been in america).harlock_jds (talk) 11:51, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
    Re: "it is one of the first things you learn about him when reading about him"--this depends on what you mean by "one of the first things". In the book that deals most personally with Atanasoff (Mollenhoff), it shows up at the end of a foreward and then again in chapter 2. In many technical articles that give brief biographical sketches of Atanasoff, it is not mentioned at all. In boosterish presentations of Atanasoff, it is highlighted foremost, as if having Bulgarian heritage is the most siginificant thing about Atanasoff. This is the type of skewed presentation I've specifically been combating. Since the lead was scanty in comparison to the whole article size and deserved to be extended per the MoS guidelines on lead sections, I've added a paragraph to the article which develops Atanasoff's career and recognition and also mentions Atanasoff's Bulgarian heritage. Robert K S (talk) 14:45, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

    [edit] Honors and distinctions

    Hate to say it Robert but your edition to that section is not appreciated.

    The 1970 Sts. Cyril and Methodius Order was originally appearing in the opening paragraph of that section, until removed by someone last September.

    I restored it as it rightly belongs there, being an early highest national scientific award Atanasoff got, preceding in particular the other highest national scientific award of Atanasoff's, the 1990 National Medal of Technology.

    There is nothing special about the 1981 IEEE Computer Pioneer Medal, or Atanasoff Hall, or 'Project Vincent' in comparison with the other awards, institutions, and features named for Atanasoff, hence the right chronological place for the Medal, the Hall, and the Project is among the other honors listed below.

    There is and was no 'Order of Bulgaria' by the way.

    As I mentioned earlier — in connection with your biased removal of Atanasoff's ancestry from the lead — I am not going into reversals, so I would expect you to revert your inappropriate (to put it mildly) edit that has degraded the Honors section text. Apcbg (talk) 10:44, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

    Which edit of mine are you referring to? Robert K S (talk) 10:49, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
    This one, the 'Honors and distinctions' section. Apcbg (talk) 11:08, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
    I see what you're saying. Something weird happened when I made that edit. It reverted some of my changes, too, not just yours. I'll try to repair the damage, but feel free to make further corrections. PS--always remember to assume good faith! Robert K S (talk) 11:18, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
    Okay, fixed. Apologies for the mix-up. It wasn't intentional. Robert K S (talk) 11:33, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
    Thanks for fixing it. I always do assume good faith — both in Wikipedia and out of it. Unless/until the opposite is confirmed, that is; to continue assuming good faith afterwards would be less than reasonable I reckon. Apcbg (talk) 12:04, 20 December 2007 (UTC)