Talk:John Searle

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Contents

[edit] Content

I’ve re-worked the content, focusing on the role of intentionality in Searle’s work. I’ve removed the reference to The construction of Social Reality (linked to social construction) and to Ian Hacking because they neither added any information about Searle’s work nor linked to relevant information – apologies to the author. -Banno

Can anyone find a more scholarly critique of the Chinese room argument than the one offered by Bob Murphy? It's really poor. Rclb

[edit] NPOV removal (again)

I removed a bit that said words to the effect of "One of the few arguements for realism in modern philosophy". I would argue that there are quite a few arguements for realism. I replaced it with a statement which is neutral to the overall number of arguements for realism in modenr philosophy.

(the above was not signed separately, but I presume it was Banno?)

Not I; but I did write the text that was removed. Banno 19:27, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Most of the following (from the end of the section on Illocutionary Acts) also failed for NPOV:

Although many think so, Searle has never proposed a clear definition of what illocutionary acts actually are. Furthermore, the conceptions he suggests in more or less detail vary substantially over the years, his fundamental assumptions are to a considerable extent implausible and lead to different technical problems such as self-contradictions (cf. Searle 1969, 1979, 1983; Doerge 2006). Searle's involvement in debates over speech-act theory includes an engagement with Jacques Derrida, one side of which is printed in the book Limited Inc.

The last sentence was OK, but the rest was (at best) completely vague and needed to be either recast or cut. I have replaced the lot with simply:

Searle's speech-act theory is rooted in the modern analytic tradition and has, unsurprisingly, been challenged by continental thinkers. A wide-ranging critique is in F C Doerge Illocutionary Acts[1]. See also Jacques Derrida 'Limited Inc'[2] and, in (brief) reply, Searle 'The Construction of Social Reality'[3] for a flavour of the motivation behind these debates.

Also, I have moved the next section (Strong AI) because the section after it (Intentionality) was written to follow on from the Illocutionary Acts section. And I have added an example to that section, to clarify Searle's use of the technical term 'Background', as well as lifting the brief explanation of intentionality from the section on Social Intentionality - it makes more sense to include it earlier in the article.

-Mark 06:23, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Much of the article still seems unduly POV to me though much of the discussion is far over my head.68.49.36.18 (talk) 20:25, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Biological naturalism

I agree that Biological naturalism should be mentioned. I hope someone can provide a short description of what it means.

"Biological Naturalism states that consciousness is a higher level function of the brain's physical capabilities. The neurophysiological processes in the brain cause mental phenomena, which are also a feature of the brain. However, such features as consciousness are not reducible to neurophysiological systems." (source)

Given my understanding of reducible this (above) description of Biological Naturalism makes no sense to me. I think Searle has a special definition for "reducible" that needs to be stated explicitly. JWSchmidt 18:48, 23 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Searle lists five possible senses of 'reduction' in ch.5 of Rediscovery of the Mind, but what he's claiming above is that sense data aren't reducible to brain states in the way that raindrops are reducible to water molecules. -Mark 03:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Reducible doesn't just mean that one thing is identical to another it also means that true propositions about a system at one level can be adequately re-expressed in a lower level system, i.e. psychological facts can be re-stated as biological facts. It may turn out that our biological theory lacks the expressive power or that there is some further epistemological constraint that prevents the reduction.

[edit] Construction of social reality

Removed from article:

The above is not a very good example of a social construct, as a five dollar bill has the economic guarantee of a third force (The United States Government), therefore it does not rely simply upon the agreement of two parties, but rather upon the real economic integrity of a government's ability to back up its tender. Whether the second party believes a five-dollar bill to be a five-dollar bill is immaterial to the five-dollar bill's value.

Stronger examples of social construction would be the values of antiques, collectors' items, name-brand goods, or fetishized commodities, which rely upon a covenant of agreed value between two parties.

This note appears to be an opinion, and so should have been placed in talk, rather than the main article. It also shows how inadequate the section on the social construction of reality is, since it appears to contain a basic misunderstanding. The role of a nation’s government is irrelevant to the sort of social construct Searle is discussing – they are simply another party to the convention of calling certain pieces of paper money; The phrase 'real economic integrity' is telling – what the hell could 'real economic integrity' be, without a shared intentionality? As is 'Whether the second party believes a five-dollar bill to be a five-dollar bill is immaterial to the five-dollar bill's value'. No second party will use such a bill in a transaction unless they believe it has value, and furthermore, if they do not believe it has value, then ipso facto it does not have value. That the note has any value at all is a matter of shared intentionality, not economic integrity. Any economic integrity derives from that same shared intentionality.

I’ll put a re-write on my ‘’to do’’ list, but it might take a while… Banno 22:53, May 22, 2004 (UTC)

This is not an effective criticism of Searle. The value of money, in his vocabulary, is an institutional fact. It isn't valuable because one or two people agree it has value; it's valuable because society collectively agrees it has value. The guarantee of the government is merely an element of that collective intentionality. If people stopped taking the word of the government (also another socially realized fact) it would cease to be meaningful. Twinxor t 07:21, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
A better analogy might be UK banknotes. A Bank of England note is accepted pretty much anywhere in the UK, while banknotes from Northern Ireland or Scotland are generally only accepted in the relevant regions. Anyone who has ever received a blank stare from an English shopkeeper when confronted with an Ulster Bank five-pound-note will immediately understand what Searle is discussing here. ;-) -- Grey Knight 08:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unified Field Theories of Consciousness

Searle has been a strong proponent of unified field theories of consciousness (See "Consciousness" - Annu Rev Neurosci. 2000;23:557-78), and I think he's exerted some influence on the neuroscience community in this regard. Yet, I don't find anything related to unified field theories of consciousness on his page. Is there a reason, or is this something that maybe I should think about adding? Cerebral 02:31, 23 May 2004 (UTC)

I noticed that some sites give his date of birth as July 31, 1932. Since that's more precise that what we've got now, I'm inclined to think it might be correct, but I don't know, so I didn't change it. I'm also not quite sure if the middle name is "Rogers" or "Roger". Everyking 05:40, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)

What an awful photograph, he looks like he just got out of bed after having been kept up all night with a cold. Does he look like that normally? If not, is there a more appropriate picture for him that could be used? -mqbs Oct 25 23:43:20 EDT 2004

That's what he looks like in person, at least when I saw him (I took the picture). In his "official photos", those which are not from the 1970s, he is done up a bit more. But I've never seen any of those that could be released under the Wikipedia license. --Fastfission 02:50, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Ontological Objectivity vs. Epistemic Objectivity

I've been editing Objectivity (philosophy). That article only states Searle's distinction between [ontological] and epistemic objectivity. Since that distinction isn't in the John Searle article, I'm questioning whether that distinction warrants its own article. Perhaps it should be moved here and that page redirected to Object (philosophy). I really don't know much about Searle, so I was hoping that someone here has an opinion. Chiok 02:33, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

I've changed 'metaphysical objectivity' to 'ontological objectivity', Searle's preferred term, in the above. I have also added a section to this article about Searle's views and terminology, though I have not added a link to it from the article on Objectivity (philosophy).

-Mark 14:08, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Better picture available?

The front picture looks an unkind shot of Searle. Frankly, it is the worst Searle pic. I've ever seen. Can't we find a better one? -- Orz 11:13, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

  • It's not intentionally unkind -- it's what he looks like these days (almost all of his published photographs are from a much earlier period, apparently). But if a better one can be found -- go for it. I donated that one just because I happened to have taken it, and thus it could be released under a free license. --Fastfission 17:11, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
Better to have a picture than not; and removing the pic removed the info box. So I;ve restored it, but agree that a different picture might be better. Banno 19:05, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree too; I came to this talk page to suggest this but I found it was already being discussed! EdGl 21:52, 4 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm here for the same reason! I recommend his UC Berkeley photo, though I haven't the time to properly put it on there just now... hurtstotouchfire 5:19 (UTC) - 3 September 2006
He looks nothing like the photo. Please change it. 169.229.84.149 04:19, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
The one there now looks quite good. I saw him just the other day and that photo represents a rather charitable account of how he's doing these days, although I suppose some strong AI folks might demand a less attractive photo, don't you think? :) Loganbartling 08:12, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
Regardless whether the present (10 April 2008) picture represents the truth or not, in my view this is not the kind of photo supposed to be used for an encyclopedia. As far as I remember, the predecessor was more adequate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.189.164.49 (talk) 09:20, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Searle's influences

I think it's fair to say that Searle has has philosophical influences besides Strawson and Austin. For instance, he's repeatedly called Wittgenstein "the most influential philosopher of the twentieth century" and his dog is named Ludwig Wittgenstein Searle. He also continuously recommends Russell's History of Western Philosophy and claims it had a "big impression" on him as a teenager. Can whoever it is who jealously deletes any new additions to this category either cease or explain himself?

So provide citations in the text, as per the guidelines: Entries in Influences, Influenced, and Notable ideas should be explained in the main text of one of the articles. Those that are not mentioned in the main text may be deleted.[1] Banno 10:55, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough; I certainly don't want to require exceptions to the rules. I shall try to see if I can fit them in without compromising the integrity of the article; if not, then I'll drop the issue.
Thanks. Banno

Banno: Searle's *former* dog was named Ludwig Wittgenstein Searle. His current dog is named Gilbert Ryle Searle.

I once had a rooster named Bertrand Russel, after his example of the fallacy of induction. Hardly a vital fact. Find a citation. Banno 20:04, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Banno: There are articles on Searle's website. One of them is 'What is Language?'. It is dated Sept. 7, 2006. On page 8 of the article, in the middle, you will find a reference to Gilbert. "I, on the contrary, think that it is obvious that many animals, like my dog, Gilbert,...." http://socrates.berkeley.edu/~jsearle/whatislanguage.pdf

Wow. Banno

Hey guys, Grice was one of his teachers. Grice should probably be added to the influences. 169.229.84.149 11:14, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

In the section on intentionality, I have mentioned Searle's claim that Wittgenstein's On Certainty is all about what Searle calls the 'Background', and Searle has also cited Kant as a major influence. But many, many modern thinkers would cite these two, so I'd still leave them out. On the other hand, Julius Weinberg, who taught Searle at Wisconsin Uni, should definitely be in as Searle himself cites him. -Mark 05:53, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Landlord

This section appears potentially unbalanced, particularly as Searle won his legal case in the Courts. Regardless of the desires of Berkley residents for cheaper rents the courts are the final arbiters. 06:50, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

What exactly do you think is non-neutral? Searle sued, won his case, and Berkeley residents were upset. All of these are objective facts and easy to understand; the article doesn't take the side of any of parties. AaronSw 06:26, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
The opening sentence - 'Berkely residents refer to Searle as a "notorious slumlord" for his ownership of a great deal of housing in the area' are weasel words. Which residents did this? When? What percentage? What documentation is there of this? Jaxsonjo 08:17, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Although the paragraph does contain factual information the tone presented is one which gives a feeling of being against Searle. The quotes presented attack his character rather than his motives (which are left completely unstated). Tom P Joyce 21:10, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

I removed the whole section. We dont have a biography section but 20 sentences about Searle as an landlord ... that's really absurd. Of course, we can mention it in a biography section with one or two sentences. But its an article about philosophy - we dont need a section "Kant and the women", "David Chalmers' hair cut" or "The landlord John Searle". --Davidlud 06:17, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Last time I checked, we did have a section on Chalmers haircut. This isn't an encyclopedia of philosophy; being a landlord is part of Searle's biography. Perhaps history won't judge it to be as important as his philosophical contributions, but it's nonetheless as important as many other biographies that appear in Wikipedia. AaronSw 15:44, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Four speech acts, or five?

The article states:

Searle originally assumes that the illocutionary forces of a sentence consists in the subjection of this sentence to certain specifiable rules. These rules set out the circumstances under which it is admissible to utter the sentence, and what this uttering counts as. Searle assumes four general types of such rules.

Perhaps I'm at cross-purposes here, but if these 'four' are Searle's speech act types, these days he claims there are "exactly five":

assertives: "We're married."; directives: "Get married!"; commissives: "Are you married?"; expressives: "I wish you'd marry."; declarations: "I declare you husband and wife."

The terms are his, the examples are of what I think he means by each. Were there only four in "Speech Acts"? Did he decide later that declarations are distinct from assertions, perhaps?

-Mark 13:22, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

One of the problems with Wikipedia is successive small edits by authors who do not take into account the structure of the section, and so progressively destroy it - a phenomenon called "Wikirot". In the original paragraph, the four types of rules Searle uses in speech acts were listed, in italics. but the paragraph cited above has come adrift from the rules. They are: propositional content, preparatory conditions, sincerity condition - and one other that seems to have been removed altogether, and which I cannot recall. I agree the section does not now make sense. Banno 20:28, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Ah, of course - the intentionality of the rule - what it is intended to do. This has grown into a full sub-section. This is one of the best examples of wikirot I have seen. Banno 20:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


incidentally, each of the parenthetic comments in the article seem to be POV. I suggest they be removed, or at least re-written. Banno 20:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)


I have removed most of them for lack of precision as much as POV, but the reference to the Doerge critique was good, so I've just moved to the end. (I think mixing references to comment/criticism with explanation just creates clutter). BUT: In the above comment, you say: "the intentionality of the rule - what it is intended to do". But the intention is what it is intended to do, the intentionality is what is it is about. So I've assumed you intended intention, and wrote intentionality unintentionally. (sorry...) -Mark 05:45, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. I don't like the way Searle uses the word intentionality. But then, his work on the topic is not treated well enough in the article. Well done. Banno 07:02, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Opposition to dualism

With reference to this dif[2], if he claims to oppose it, isn't he opposing it? Or have you evidence that is claim is disingenuous? Banno 21:23, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cat:Wittgensteinian philosopher

Searle was a student of Austin, who is independent of Witgenstein. Banno 10:35, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clarification required

"It is this gap that makes us think we have freedom of the will" It's not clear whether Searl considers this thought (thinking we have freedom of the will) is valid or not. That is whether Searl thinks free-will follows or not. Can someone please clarify? Thanks. Amit@Talk 13:29, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok I read this and now things are clearer to me. Amit@Talk 16:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
I expanded his views on free will using that source. (Pats self on the back) Amit@Talk 14:56, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Low importance?

Shouldn't this article be atleast mid-importance given Searle's contribution? Thanks.Amit@Talk 16:15, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Picture

I think the old photo was better :| ReluctantPhilosopher (talk) 11:43, 11 February 2008 (UTC)