Talk:John Labatt Centre

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[edit] Ontario Heritage Act

Your edit regarding the JLC that "Not unique -- it is very common for it take years for a demolished property to officially cease to be designated -- the Talbot Inn by no means the first" is 100 per cent incorrect.

The standard procedure for demolishing a designated heritage property is to repeal the designating by-law and to issue a demolition permit. At the JLC, the City of London did neither. What the City did obtain was a "heritage alteration permit" to demolish the Talbot Inn -- totally contrary to the Ontario Heritage Act and a total abuse of process.

The Talbot Inn remained a designated heritage property in London for approximately 17 months after it was demolished and the building materials trucked to Try Recycling on Highbury Avenue.

According to officials that I spoke with at the Ontario Heritage Foundation (I did a story on the matter in SCENE magazine, plus I sat on the London advisory Committee on Heritage for three years), it is a first for Ontario and likely Canada. It is also a first for London, Ontario.

I will be editing the article accordingly. Barry Wells 23:48, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Although I am pleased to know that you take such an interest in heritage matters, and am very happy to discuss such matters with you at length, I am afraid that you are incorrect. I am a lawyer that handles heritage matters on a regular basis. Under the Ontario Heritage Act (an article I wrote, by the way), as it existed prior to the 2005 amendments, a landowner could demolish a designated building 180 days after a municipality refused permission to demolish. Where the municipality was opposed to the demolition, it was incredibly rare for it to repeal the designation by-law prior to the demolition. In fact, it wouldn't make any sense for the municipality to do so, given that the intent of the 180 day period was for the municipality to try and negotiate some level of heritage preservation (if it was able).

And although the statute required the municipality to repeal the by-law after the demolition, it was very common for a municipality to take quite awhile to pass the housekeeping by-law to repeal the earlier designation by-law. It was not rare whatsoever in Ontario, therefore, for a building to technically remain designated for quite some time after the demolition. The only time that it was standard practice for a municipality to repeal the designation by-law prior to demolition was where the municipality approved the demolition.

Under the Act currently, a landowner must apply to the Ontario Municipal Board to demolish a building where the municipality refuses a permit to demolish. Presumably, where the Board grants permission to demolish, in the face of municipal opposition, the designating by-law will still end up usually being repealed post-demolition, depending on how quickly a landowner acts on the Board order. I can only speculate, as the first appeals under these new provisions are still working their way through the system.

The City of London may have demolished the Inn contrary to the provisions of the Act. That does not change the fact that the fact that it was not unusual for the City to take 17 months to repeal the designation by-law. There may have been many matters unique to the demolition of the Inn, but this was not one of them.

And although the Foundation is established pursuant to a section of the Ontario Heritage Act, it does not administer the municipal designation provisions in section 29 or the alteration/demolition provisions in sections 33 and 34 of the statute.

So unless I have completely misunderstood what you are attempting to convey by the phrase "a first in Ontario's history and perhaps Canada's, according to officials with the Ontario Heritage Foundation", I'd have to say on its plain reading that it is wrong at law. I have amended the article accordingly. Skeezix1000 03:34, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

First things first. The current version is incorrect as no one from the Ontario Heritage Foundation made comment on the precise number of months between the unlawful demolition on Sunday, June 3, 2001 and the actual repeal date of the designating by-law -- that is a matter of public record on file in the clerk's office in London, Ontario.
To wit, Planning Committee supported the London Advisory Committee on Heritage's (LACH) recommendation to de-designate the property in September of 2002 (http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:yvBzVR8PNQ0J:council.london.ca/oldarchive/Planning%2520Archives/Archived%2520Planning%2520Committee%2520Reports%2520-%25202002/Report%2520September%252030,%25202002.pdf+Talbot+Inn+demolition&hl=en&gl=ca&ct=clnk&cd=4) so 17 months is the approximate time elapsed after the Planning Committee's recommendation went to City Council a week later, then public notice requirements were carried out.

Translation: the wording in the current version "according to the Ontario Heritage Foundation" should be deleted.

Regarding the other business, User:Skeezix1000 maintains that it is not unusual for a demolished heritage property to remain designated by-law under the Ontario Heritage Act and that he is a lawyer who regularly deals with heritage matters, even though his scenario runs contrary to the provisions of the Act, which he admits with the line, "And although the statute required the municipality to repeal the by-law after the demolition ..." (actually prior to the demolition)

I believe that it is incumbent on him to provide specific examples (other than the Talbot Inn example -- a first in London, Ontario's history) where a designated heritage property has been demolished without the prior or prompt repeal of the designating by-law.

For clarity, what occurred in London is that the council had approved a "heritage alteration permit" for the Talbot Inn (owned by the municipality) several months before the building was demolished with heavy equipment on the morning of Sunday, June 3, 2001.

This is also contrary to the Ontario Heritage Act as an alteration permit approved by a municipal council cannot be used to demolish a designated heritage property. Since the municipality is the body that often initiates charges under the Act, no charges were laid as no citizen stepped forward to initiate them, nor did the province. Barry Wells 23:58, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Post added from my talk page Flibirigit 00:37, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
I should add that what an official at the Ontario Heritage Foundation said to me when I did a story on this for SCENE magazine in 2001 is that they'd never heard of a designated heritage property being demolished without first repealing the designating by-law and that "it was likely a first in Ontario and possibly Canada." Barry Wells 00:16, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
Please be advised that I have also e-mailed the Ontario Heritage Foundation (now called the Ontario Heritage Trust, as a result of amendments to the Ontario Heritage Act in 2005). The e-mail is copied below. I will share the response I receive (if any), on this discussion page.

The e-mail was sent to catherine.axford@heritagefdn.on.ca and general-inquiries@heritagefdn.on.ca

Perhaps someone familiar with the Ontario Heritage Act in force in June of 2001 can assist me.

On June 3, 2001, the City of London demolished the Talbot Inn, a designated heritage property (under Part IV of the Act) that it owned, without obtaining a demolition permit or repealing the designating by-law via its city council.

The repealing by-law was not passed by council until approximately 17 months later in the autumn of 2002.

What the council had previously approved, however, was a "heritage alteration permit."

Two questions:

1. Has anyone involved with the Ontario Heritage Foundation/ Trust ever heard of a designated hertiage property (under Part IV of the Act) being demolished without first repealing the designating by-law?

2. Has anyone involved with the Ontario Heritage Foundation/ Trust ever heard of a designated heritage property (under Part IV of the Act) being demolished without a demolition permit, just a heritage alteration permit?

The above questions pertain to a research project, not for any legal proceeding.

Yours very truly, Barry Wells Barry Wells 02:03, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

  • Barry, please do post the response you receive. Thanks! Flibirigit 12:32, 3 April 2006 (UTC)
  • The Act does not require that a designation by-law be repealed prior to demolition. Subsection 34.3(1) requires that the municipality enact the repeal by-law if the owner has applied to demolish and the Council consents to the application or the Board (on appeal) orders the municipality to consent. There is no timing requirement that necessitates passage of the repeal by-law pre-demolition; the statute simply requires that certain pre-conditions be met. In fact, municipalities will often enact the housekeeping measure after the demolition. The example that comes to mind right now is a building down the road from where I live, where the City of Toronto enacted the repeal by-law after the building had been demolished to make way for condos (see the repeal by-law at [1], and note the fifth recital which acknowledges that the building had already been demolished).

    In 2001, when the Inn in London was demolished, the Act (as it read then) similarly contained no requirement that the repeal by-law be enacted prior to demolition. In fact, (then) subsection 34(5) required passage of the repeal by-law where Council had consented to the demolition application OR the 180 day period had expired (as had the extension periods, if any) and "the demolition or removal of the building or structure on the property has been completed". The text of (then) s. 34(5) had been in the statute for years, and acknowledged on its face that the repeal by-law would, in many circumstances, be enacted post-demolition. The example (from around the same time as the Talbot Inn demolition, based on the same version of the statute) that comes to mind at this moment is the controversial demolition of the Union Carbide building on Eglinton. I'll dig up that repeal by-law when I have the chance.

    I have no comments on any of the other issues. Skeezix1000 12:25, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

  • The Union Carbide repeal by-law, as mentioned above, is at [2]. That wasn't too hard to find. Skeezix1000 12:31, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Copied last two posts by Skeezix1000 from his talk page to here. Flibirigit 12:49, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Preliminary e-amil response from Catherine Axford at the Ontario Heritage Foundation, received on Monday, April 3, 2006:
Mr Wells:
By copy of this e-mail, I am asking Sean Fraser, Team Leader, Conservation Services, to reply to your e-mail.
Thank you for your interest in protecting Ontario's heritage.
Catherine Axford
Barry Wells 19:57, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Talbot Inn demolition

Pending the response from Mr. Fraser at the Ontario Heritage Foundation/ Trust, I propose the disputed paragraph to read as follows:

"No charges were ever laid against the City of London under the Ontario Heritage Act for the demolition. The Talbot Inn remained a designated heritage property for approximately 17 months after it was demolished."

The response from the OHF that I received in 2001 ("first in Ontario's history and possibly Canada's") may well have been referring to the improper use of a "heritage alteration permit" to outright demolish a designated heritage property. Barry Wells 20:18, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed Wording

I'd still like to retain a portion of it being a first in Ontario/Canada history. How about this for the section? (changed areas in bold) Flibirigit 21:28, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Originally planning to re-use the original bricks from the Talbot Inn on the northeast facade of the JLC, the City of London suddenly demolished the heritage structure on the morning of June 3, 2001 -- without a demolition permit or delisting the Talbot Inn as a by-law registered heritage property. Instead the City of London obtained a "heritage alteration permit." According to the Ontario Heritage Foundation, it is the first time in Ontario's history and possibly Canada's that improper use of a "heritage alteration permit" was used to outright demolish a designated heritage property.

The rationale cited was that the Talbot Inn bricks were not salvageable due to their moisture content after a contractor had power-washed the paint off the bricks. Some of the original bricks were used for the interior walls of the Talbot Restaurant on the second level.

No charges were ever laid against the City of London under the Ontario Heritage Act for the demolition. The Talbot Inn remained a designated heritage property for approximately 17 months after it was demolished.

Sounds fine to me. I will still post e-mail reply from OHF when I receive it. Barry Wells 00:16, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
That would be great! Does Skeezix1000 have any other contributions? Flibirigit 03:41, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
The new language looks great! Skeezix1000 13:35, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
  • The changes were posted to the article. Flibirigit 14:54, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] General Article Discussion

If I can add a little bit to the other discussions, please remember that this article is about the John Labatt Centre - not the Ontario Heritage Act, not the Talbot Inn, and not anything else that comprises the history of the area or the city, or any laws or regulations that may have been broken.

It's great that the Talbot Inn incident was incuded in the article, and it's even better that it's being discussed by people who are passionate about what did or did not happen. I just think the discussion and the many edits might possibly warrant the creation of a new article, specific to the Talbot Inn.

Beebolini 16:48, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Londonflag.PNG

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[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Londonflag.PNG

Image:Londonflag.PNG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 05:15, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Londonflag.PNG

Image:Londonflag.PNG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 23:18, 1 July 2007 (UTC)