Talk:John Howard, 1st Duke of Norfolk

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I really like the Wikipedia feature of three-column tables in the biography articles summarizing the careers of the articles' subjects, but is there a reason why there are two tables here, instead of one? I'd like to change it, but I don't want to mess with it if there's a good reason why it's that way. — Del C 21:00, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dates?

25 June 1483, Parliament declared the Princes illegitimate and asked the Duke of Gloucester/Richard to become King.

On 28th June 1483, Richard created John Howard the Duke of Norfolk.

Richard Duke of Shrewsbury was still alive as of July 6, 1483 when his uncle Richard was crowned Richard III.

The reports of the death of the princes began to circulate in late summer of 1483. Roz

[edit] ==

John Howard couldn't possibly have been born in 1430 if his mother died in 1425. ====dates and more... ...i'll let you folks edit and update with this info..i'm braindead with computers etc. douglas richardson is a dedicated medieval genealogist and has co-authored medieval to colonial descent genealogical books, and is the sole author of others. google him or his email address...he should have a wikipage if you don't already have one on him. ..okay..let the info editing begin..

jock/john, d. of norfolk's mother, margaret mowbray died circa 1459..here is some supporting evidence. also, jock was made d. of norfolk BEFORE the princes of the tower went missing.. his son thomas d. 1524 made a deathbed confession to being responsible for the deaths of the princes in the tower.

the john de grey margaret mowbray married was husband of constance de holand. constance died circa nov. 14, 1437. therefore the window for the marriage date shrinks even further.

john de grey is the first born son of reynold/reginald de grey, baron of ruthin/ruthyn wales. mx2. reynold aka reginald m. first margaret de ros. m. second joan de asteley. joan is the mother of edward de grey b. circa 1415 m. elizabeth ferrers. elizabeth is the dau. of henry ferrers and isabel mowbray, sister of margaret.

edward, lord ferrers is the father of john de grey m. elizabeth woodville. he is also the father of edward de grey m. elizabeth talbot. elizabeth talbot is neice of eleanor boteler nee talbot named in titlus regis...the document that allowed richard iii to declare edward v kingship invalid.

On Friday, June 27, 2003 2:25 PM, Douglas Richardson [SMTP:royalancestry@msn.com] wrote:

I've checked.

The documentation for Margaret Mowbray's marriage to Sir John Grey can be found in the book, Household Books of John Howard 1462–1471, 1481–1483 (1992), by A. Crawford, pp. xiii, xvi, xxxviii. This book consists of published transcripts of the household books of Lady Margaret's son, Sir John Howard.

The author includes a list dated c. 1455 which specifically refers to Margaret Mowbray as Lady Grey:

"My lady Margaret Grey, John Howard the foreseid her sone, …").

The author states in her preface that Margaret's husband was Sir John Grey, of Ruthin, and I believe she is correct. However, I haven't yet found any other confirmation of this marriage, which was evidently very brief. Sir Robert Howard died in 1436, and Sir John Grey died in 1439.

Elsewhere I've located a record which shows that Margaret received a papal indult for a portable altar in 1446 [Reference: Papal Regs.: Letters 9 (1912): 587]. In that record, she is simply styled aunt of the Duke of Norfolk, and is not given any surname.

For interest sake, I've included below a list of colonial immigrants who descend from Margaret (Mowbray) (Howard) Grey.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail: royalancestry@msn.com

[edit] =

everything i've stated is available for verification on line via reputable sources/citing the complete peerage etc.

one of these days i'll figure out how to properly sign up/join wikipedia and really be able to contribute. i've been studying/researching the de grey and associated families for over a decade. cheers roz24.207.124.2 22:02, 7 June 2007 (UTC)