Talk:John Henry (folklore)

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The article is not correct. In all the versions of the song that I have come across John Henry is challenged by a steam drill boring holes presumably for blasting rock in tunnels and cuttings (note the reference to the mountain caving in). The steel is the drill rod or 'drill steel'and the shaker he speaks to is an assistant who turns the steel a little bit between each hammer blow. I can think of nothing more exhausting than hammering a drill steel at shoulder height for more than a few minutes at a time. Boring with a modern compressed air hammer drill was hard enough for me. Knocking track spikes in as described in the article is a light job that does not need a folk hero.

mikeL

All versions I have encountered depict the version descirbed in the article. Find sources for this version you speak of, and we can add it to the article. --b. Touch 15:37, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Ask almost any folk singer who was active during the last 100 years (Seeger, Dylan, Felix, Carters, Leadbelly or whoever) Or see:- www.heritagepreservation.org/PROGRAMS/SOS/4KIDS/4kids2000/wvhenry.htm www.ibiblio.org/john_henry/ , www.wvepostcards.com/john-henry/ www.americanfolklore.net/folktales/wv2.htm www.newhouse.com/archive/story1c012402.html ...etc.

It looks as if the other version developed later possibly for publicity or propaganda reasons.

P.S. how can anyone know it was a heart attack ?

mikeL


P.P.S. I never thought he was a black man till wikipedia said so. I think he was a human being like everyone else of all races.

P.P.P.S. Someone wrote about 'driving' blasting holes. You don't drive holes you drill them or, more commonly in this context, you bore them. 82.47.176.254 22:48, 31 October 2006 (UTC)mikeL (who can also be boring)


I've cleaned up the sloppy formating in the external links section. In doing so, I eliminated the following links: www.wvepostcards.com/john-henry/ and www.americanfolklore.net/folktales/wv2.htm . The later link is dead and I couldn't find anything in the former that justified its inclusion . That line that says "... BUT see ' discussion'" needs to be changed to reflect the story varients in the article, rather than self-reference Wikipedia. ~CS 21:03, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)


I reverted recent edits which added information about a band called "The John Henry Band." They appeared to be vanity additions. Their webpage indicates that they are unsigned and recruiting members, which indicates to me that they are not notable enough for inclution here. If anyone can provide information otherwise, I'd be happy to re-insert at least some of the information. ~CS 23:25, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] rejection of work ethic

It seems odd to me to say that John Henry himself rejected the 19th century work ethic. Isn't it the story that rejects the work ethic, not the character? --Allen 15:14, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

No response, so I'll be bold. --Allen 21:55, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Goings-on with women

I've removed the following paragraph, added today by an anonomous user:

"Whilst most of the songs written about John Henry have a similar melody, and often similar lyrics, many have focused not on the story of the fight with the steam drill but on John Henry's tumultuous goings-on with numerous women of varying repute, and the (admittedly one-sided) brawls they would get him into."

I'm not certain if this is true, or vandalism. If it is true, it would be usefull to be more specific, citing particular renditions of the song that deviate from the normal story. Certainly, any songs about John Henry's "goings-on with numerous women" are not the norm. ~CS 19:11, 4 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Disney Film

I would question the use of the phrase "thoughtful and beautiful" to describe the Disney version. I think the mention of the various awards the film won are adequate assertion of the film's quality.

[edit] Myth v Reality

John Henry is not a mythical folklore hero, he was a real person. I saw posted the question "P.S. how can anyone know it was a heart attack ?" Because if you check the web you can find scan images of the actual death certificate finding the cause of death a massive heart attack. The only thing they don't have actual proof of is as to whether or not he actually raced a steam powered drill; I believe he did. here's a site that has much information - http://www.ibiblio.org/john_henry/index.html John Henry

Wheather John Henry was a real person or a mythical amalgamation of the issues of the time period has been a point of contention between scholars for some time, with no final determination possible. Many of these theories are good leads -- your link is a facinating one -- but I'd use caution when regarding any source that claims that claim actual proof. ~CS 23:51, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

It may be worth noting that [Alan Lomax] stated that it was his opinion that this song originated among African-American railroad workers not as a ballad, but rather as a humerous tale of a man's sexual prowess, and later was adopted by whites who saw John Henry not as a comical figure, but rather as a heroic one.--messor 00:15, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Leeds

While it is true that no proof exists for the Leeds connection, that is equally true for the Talcott story, so it is not MORE craven for Leeds to capitalize on it. (Also, Garst is a Mississippi native living in Athens, Georgia and has no particular vested interest in promoting tourism in Leeds.) Presumably better references could emerge from the planned symposium next week. --Dystopos 14:36, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Leeds vs. Talcott

While it is true that Talcott, W. Va.’s “proof” and right to the promotion of the John Henry legend is no more or no less substantial than that of Leeds, AL; Talcott does have 10 plus years prior claim on the J. Henry tourist money maker. One might speculate as to why Leeds could not be more original than having to “rip off” someone else’s claim, valid or not. Particularly when the Leeds claim is just as questionable. But then again, it has been said that imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Well I guess Talcott should just feel flattered and so should any other local folklore promoter in case Leeds decides to flatter them.--vett69 01:41, 19 September 2006 (UTC)

Please stop adding the accusation that Leeds is ripping off tourists to this article. The article is already clear that claims of a historical John Henry are wide and often dubious -- there is not need to single out Leeds. This kind of content does not meet Wikipedia's Neutral point of view policies, and editors will continue to remove this line because of this. You may also want to not Wikipedia's Three-revert_rule which you violated yesterday. If you want, you can discuss how to impropve this section of the article here. Thanks, ~CS 15:59, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
  • It should be clear that Leeds did not set out to flatter or to rip off Talcott's "tourist money maker". They are proposing to include an educational exhibit on John Henry within their planned historical museum based on claims made by an independent researcher who has no ties to Leeds or its tourism industry. --Dystopos 17:10, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

They are also planning a "John Henry Days" festival and possible statue similair to Talcott; there have been discussions of a possible movie or docudrama.--vett69 18:45, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Take This Hammer

This is best regarded as a different song where the singer is part of a work gang (presumably a prision chain gang) dreaming of escape to freedom or to death..hence 'take this hammer, carry it to the captain, tell him i'm gone'. John Hirt includes the name John Henry in his version but this is not usual.

Other related recordings:-


'John Hardy' Carter family, 1928 similar name and tune but about a shooting.

'Gonna Die with my Hammer in My Hand' Williamson brothers and Curry 1927

'Spike Driving Man' Missippii Joe Hirt 1952


82.47.176.254 08:49, 21 September 2006 (UTC)mikeL

"Take This Hammer" refers to "making big ones into little ones", typical chain gang hard labor, making crushed rock for railroad beds (the gravel that railroad ties sit on). A related song, Swannanoa Tunnel is likely to be a drilling song. Pustelnik (talk) 21:07, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mules and Men

Seems there should be something here about Zora Neale Hurston's report of the folktale in her ~1935 book Mules and Men. Anyone know of other early records of the story. Her's would be significant as it gives an early African-american version of the song. Also, the song's lyrics are public domain and might be discussed directly (various versions and what not). -MrFizyx 21:04, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disney Film Question

In the article it says that Disney was uneasy about releasing the film becasue of the nearly all white production team. I'm looking for more details about this and not having any luck. Can someone point me in the right direction?

[edit] Addition

I just added Pete Seeger to the list of singers who've recorded the John Henry folksong - it seemed odd that Bruce Springstein's cover of the Seeger version was listed while Seeger's own version wasn't!

[edit] Rosie O'Donnel?

Quite possible that this is just a coincidence and there really is a "big man" by the name of Rosie O'Donnell. More likely, methinks, someone put that in there as a wisecrack and it ought to be rubbed out. Consider that my recommendation. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.62.255.14 (talk) 22:08, 6 May 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Johnhenry1996.jpg

Image:Johnhenry1996.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 14:46, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Include Gary Kasparov???

In the "See Also" heading of the article there is a link to chess Grand Master Gary Kasparov. Does anyone know of the link between John Henry and Gary Kasparov? Kasparov played chess against computers so there is a man vs. machine dynamic at play. However, the link seems strenuous at best. Thoughts about removal? VirginiaProp 12:15, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

  • I removed the wikilink. If someone wants to make that connection it should be explained with some context (and should be cited to avoid original research). --Dystopos 15:01, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Big Men"?

The list of "Other Big Men" includes many men of high legend who none the less were not noted to be "big." More or less this same list is present on many of the referenced pages. Is there a "Big Men Project" or something? Should these lists be otherwise titled? Or should they be pruned down to just the "big" men? Jackrepenning (talk) 15:03, 23 March 2008 (UTC)