Talk:John Burgoyne

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Contents 1 Error Correction 2 further reading 3 Intro 4 Burgoyne's Revenge 5 john burgoyne gentleman johnny! 6 I'm a relative also 7 Article needs a lot of work 8 Contradiction 9 World Turned Upside Down

[edit] Error Correction

I came across this and immediately noticed an obvious error. I am not a historian, but I know that John Burgoyne was NOT born in 1778 nor did he die in 2205.

What does "who is known to be brian bagg" mean? Is this some vandalism?Sir Akroy 20:54, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

--Duneatreides 05:20, 13 October 2006 (UTC) Chris

[edit] further reading

can someone find some further reading on this guy?

Yes. [1] and [2]. – Quadell ^{(talk) (sleuth)} 23:56, Feb 15, 2005 (UTC)

"The Man Who Lost America" By Paul Lewis 1973; "Political and Military Episodes in the Latter Half of the Nineteenth Century..." by Edward B. De Fonblanque Gregg Press 1972Mjburgoyne 03:13, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Intro

That introduction seems strange. Burgoyne may have been known for his "arrogance, pompous attitude, and vanity," but that is hardly indicative of his place in history or what is most remembered about him. Can we change that? -- RPIRED 03:27, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

My history teacher told us that Burgoyne's entourage threw huge parties every night in tents, filled with affairs, champagne, and insanity in general. I found the story hilarious, even though I know this comment makes me sound like a troll. Why the heck do I not find anything written about the entourage?!!!!! --75.43.182.146 19:37, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Burgoyne's Revenge

In the book How to Make War by James Dunnigan (4th edition paperback p.300), John Burgoyne is mentioned as a prime example of choosing military leaders through nobility rather than ability, which often results in particularly inept leaders. This is sometimes called "Burgoyne's revenge" according to that book. Should there be some reference to this idea?

[edit] john burgoyne gentleman johnny!

I am facinated to know more now as i have recently found out general johnny is a distant relative of mine and i am only a 24 year old female and would love to learn more about what kind of character he is and more about his younger years? 84.13.42.78 12:52, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] I'm a relative also

My grandmother's maiden name is Burgoyne, and she is a direct descendent of him, and so am I. I wonder where I could find a family tree without paying for it.

According to my research, John Burgoyne had two sons and two dauthers with Susan Caulfield, John Fox, Edward, Marie and Caroline. John Fox had one son, Hugh Burgoyne, who was killed in a Naval Accident. I haven't been able to find out about any descendants beyond that. I would like to know more. As for myself, my ancestors came to America from Wales, but they were English and did not speak Welsh. Burgoyne is a Norman French name. According to our family history two brothers with the last name of Burgoyne came over with William the Conqueror in 1066. So I am probably related to Gentleman Johnny. Mjburgoyne 03:04, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

  Mjburgoyne 16:12, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I was rereading "The Man Who Lost America" Paul Lewis (Noel Gerson). He states that Burgoyne fathered one son, John Fox, and three daughters Susan, Marie and Caroline. Lewis claims that John Fox had only one son Hugh. He died without any male heirs. At the Westminster Abby site it shows the children of John Burgoyne as John Fox, Marie and Caroline. It also shows that Charlotte, John's wife, is buried with her daughter. I could find no information about a daughter born to Charlotte. Lewis's book says she didn't have any children.Mjburgoyne 04:30, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article needs a lot of work

I did a little cleaning up, but John Burgoyne is a fascinating and complex character, and I don't pretend to be a expert in 18th Century U.K. history. Scromett 13:09, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction

The article offers two different birth dates. I've added a template until someone can provide a source showing which (if either) is correct. Leithp 15:40, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] World Turned Upside Down

OK, so whether or not a song of this name was played at Yorktown is debated with (IMO) evidence for coming out on the losing side. However, that's a topic for another article.

What this section is about is the following line:

"In an ironic twist, a song from one of his plays The World Turned Upside Down was played by British bands during the surrender at Yorktown."

Now, ignoring the fact that the sentence's grammar is poor enough to present confusion over whether the song or the play was called "The World Turned Upside Down", there's another problem with this sentence: try to find any source that suggests this that isn't just copying this article. I did, since I wanted a source. (After all, why say "one of his plays" when you can say the name of the play itself?) I can't find any.

So I went to copies of Burgoyne's collected works, which can be found in two volumes:

• Volume 1
• Volume 2

From this, the following can be drawn:

• Burgoyne wrote (or translated) four plays: The Maid of the Oaks (1775), The Lord of the Manor (1780), The Heiress (1786), and Richard Coeur de Lion (1786).
• Of these, two (Heiress, Richard) were published at too late a date to meet the criteria of the statement, and one of them (The Heiress) contains no songs at all.
• Of the two plays that were published prior to the British surrender at Yorktown, neither of them contain the phrase "the world turned upside down" or any variation therefore, nor do they contain any of the lines commonly mentioned as belonging to the song in question.

In other words: without getting into whether or not the song was played, there is no evidence that it was present in any dramatic work of Burgoyne's. I've removed the line (again) until someone can provide evidence to the contrary.

-- 142.166.3.82 (talk) 18:18, 28 May 2008 (UTC)