Talk:John Birch Society

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Contents

[edit] Changing ideology

This is a fairly good article, but it seems to take for granted that JBS ideology has been relatively consistent. But I think this is not the case. I am 95% sure that from 1958 to 1973, the JBS consistently identified the foes of American values as "the Communists", which to them meant the organized forces controlled by the Comintern.

However, in 1972, Gary Allen's None Dare Call It Conspiracy began to reshape JBS ideology. In the late 1970s and throughout the 1980s, the JBS line seemed to be: (1) the major foe of Americanism is a massive conspiracy that transcends "communism"; (2) this conspiracy can probably be traced back to the Illuminati, Cecil Rhodes, and the Round Table Societies; (3) today the Council on Foreign Relations, the Trilateral Commission, and the Rockefeller family are key players in this conspiracy; (4) the USSR and the Communist Parties are themselves tools of the Trilateralist conspiracy, and not the other way around.

If I am correct that this was a change, then the article is seriously misleading, because it only mentions the Illuminati in a 1960s context (before it was part of JBS ideology) and doesn't mention the change. Of course, some believing Birchers believe that Gary Allen simply unearthed a deeper level to this conspiracy. But even so, discovering that your arch-foe is just a puppet of a bigger foe deserves a mention.

Also, the internal quarrels and factions that marked the 1990s JBS are totally unmentioned here, although they may not be well documented in reliable sources. — Lawrence King (talk) 10:26, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

  • With respect to Lawrence King's comment about internal quarrels within the JBS. There have been at least four major internal disputes within the JBS. For a long time, former JBS member and author, Alan Stang, maintained a website devoted entirely to comments by former JBS members -- many of whom were JBS chapter and section leaders or Coordinators or long-time (15-20+ year) members. However, Stang's website was discontinued in 2006.

The current controversy is well-documented on the website of Bircher Don Fotheringham and may be seen here: http://donfoth.com/index.html

  • One of the most amazing critiques ever presented about Robert Welch comes from the most unexpected source, i.e. Albert Canwell.

Albert F. Canwell was the first Chairman of the Washington State UnAmerican Activities Committee. He was an ardent supporter of Senator Joe McCarthy. In later years, the editor of the Birch Society magazine, American Opinion, asked Canwell to write several articles for AO---which Canwell did. Canwell was also associated with the JBS Speakers Bureau and made speeches around the country under its auspices. The JBS publicity release on Canwell described him as follows:

"Mr. Canwell is one of America's principal authorities on the internal threat from Communism. During his tenure as Chairman of the Washington State Committee on Un-American Activities, he was the first person to expose the machinations of Alger Hiss. An author, Mr. Canwell has published articles in American Opinion magazine...He has also served as Chief of the Identification Branch in the Spokane Sheriff's Department, worked on foreign investigations for the late Scott McLeod of the Department of State, and helped the FBI uncover Soviet espionage operations during the 1940's. A keen researcher, crack investigator, and excellent speaker, Mr. Canwell is now Director of the American Intelligence Service and Freedom Library, Inc. of Washington."

Here, then, is an excerpt from Canwell's lengthy Oral History Interview about his long anti-Communist career. Canwell's comments about Robert Welch may be found starting on page 283 at: http://www.secstate.wa.gov/oralhistory/canwell.pdf


Mr. Canwell: "The issues were that Robert Welch was not an anti-Communist. He was an opportunist, a world socialist actually, and he was doing a very dishonest job. He would gather some very fine people about him. He was a member of the National Manufacturers Association. So he sold them the idea that he was anti-Communist and that he had this program going and then he got quite a number of them to join his group. But what he was actually doing was getting people who were well identified as anti-Communist and able Americans, he’d get them to go along in his society and then he would smear them, destroy them. And that was what his object was."

Mr. Frederick: Why was he doing that?

Mr. Canwell: "Because he was an international socialist. I went to work in looking into his background when I began to have trouble with him. And I found that he had attended the London School of Economics, the top socialist school in the world. It became very obvious to me that he was able to acquire this leadership position by moving into the anti-Communist movement and pretending to be something that he was not. And then some of his own kind of people helped him do that: Drew Pearson, and others, who all of a sudden were attacking Robert Welch and giving him reams of free publicity. And the so-called Americans or anti-Communists thought, 'Well, if Drew Pearson is against him, he must be all right.' Actually Pearson and Welch were hand-in-glove."

"Another phase of this that I turned up was that Robert Welch was a long-time member of the American Civil Liberties Union, which would and did surprise a lot of people when I released that information. They denied it and he eventually made the statement that he belonged merely to get their publications, but that wasn’t the case. There was friction on that level.". ....

"Then they also put great effort into getting me to join their National Speakers Bureau. Again it became obvious to me what they wanted. They wanted my reputation plus they could put my picture in their brochure or their catalogue that they put out. But they would never find any worthwhile speaking engagements for me. I knew how that worked. They got Westbrook Pegler to write for them for awhile and then they started the damnedest smear on him that you could imagine. I could see the pattern and I became acquainted with some of the national members of his board, Dan Draskovich and others, and Welch did the same thing to all of them. He’d get them to identify with the Birch Society either on the speakers bureau or on their board or on the writing level and then he’d circulate information about them, derogatory information that was damaging to them. You talk about a sophisticated espionage operation, that was it. I would say that ninety percent, ninety-five percent of the Birch Society members were just downright good Americans, nothing wrong with them at all."

Mr. Frederick: Was he a head case?

Mr. Canwell: "A head case? I don’t know. I suspected that he was on drugs, and I say that from having observed him in two or three meetings where he was talking and he’d leave the meeting and take some pills. I don’t know what kind or what for but I suspected that might be the case. Are these international socialists psychopathic or what? You know they just aren’t pro-Americans. They aren’t supportive of our system. This is all news to you, I imagine. You may think I’m psychotic, but on this I’m not. I have correspondence. I told him that because of his activity he couldn’t get his name in the paper any more and that I was going to put him back on the front page. But I just didn’t have time to work on him properly."

[edit] Reorganized List of Prominent Members

I reorganized this list by (1) formatting all of the names consistently and (2) putting them in alphabetical order. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yosemite1967 (talk • contribs) 02:07, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] There are several things missing from this article.

It doesn't mention who JP Morgan is. (aka the John Birch Society/Belmont Brotherhood) It neglects to mention Welch's CFR compradrees, or how they use CIA wiretapping to communicate. They are hardly the true victims in wiretapping incidents. It doesn't mention how stupid John Birch Society opposition to the UN/US interventionism is. The society still doesn't equate UN intervention with US intervention, because they have been that reticent about not revealing that aspect of the UN.

The article forgets to mention Welch's secret support for campaign finance reform and his use of Barry Goldwater's statement to this end. Nor does the article most importantly not mention how the John Birch Society is a socialist tool of the Belmont Brotherhood. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.215.194.131 (talk) 15:03, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

The user JPGordon continually keeps modifying this article to give a far-right slant to the John Birch Society. The John Birch Society is a Libertarian organization. Libertarians are not "far-right" since they share many non-economic views with the "left" and are more centrist than anything. Please refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleoconservatism and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian —Preceding unsigned comment added by 7S52 (talk • contribs) 13:06, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User JPGordon continually modifies this artile to give extreme far-right slant.

The user JPGordon continually keeps modifying this article to give a far-right slant to the John Birch Society. The John Birch Society is a Libertarian organization. Libertarians are not "far-right" since they share many non-economic views with the "left" and are more centrist than anything. Please refer to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleoconservatism and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian 7S52 13:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, along with others, I'm reverting uncommented drive-by changes. If you want to provide reliable sources describing the John Birch Society as "centrist" and "libertarian", please do so. Meanwhile, other people will likely revert your changes again. --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 14:33, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree with jpgordon, this is about cites to reputable published sources, many of which describe the JBS (fairly or not) as "Far Right." Describing the JBS simply as "libertarian" is like describing the KKK as "ritual cross igniters;" accurate but hardly complete.--Cberlet 16:06, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
There are plenty of sources that call the JBS either "far right" or "ultraconservative":
  • The John Birch Society - ultraconservative anti-communist warriors who in the 1980s disappeared from public view along with such other Cold War relics as Che Guevara T-shirts - appears to be on the rebound, according to some who monitor the far right...These days, with the media focused on groups such as armed militias, the organization that once inflamed such passion now seems like the Rotary Club of the far right. [1]
  • The John Birch Society (JBS) has been one of the leading organizations of the far-right, and a major source of conspiracy doctrine, since the late 1950s. [2]
  • However, The Belmont Brotherhood revealed that the Anglo-American Establishment, which represents the interests of the aforesaid corporations, also launched the ultra-conservative movement in the United States, the John Birch Society being a pioneer of the extreme right of this dialectical process. [3]
  • "Far-Right Group Now Seems Not So Far" There are probably easier products to sell than the John Birch Society,... [4]
  • By the new standards, "President Benson wouldn't even be allowed to stay in the church," says a prominent Utah Mormon, referring to the leader's association with the ultraconservative John Birch Society. [5]
I think the term is accurate and NPOV. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:23, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd agree with this and note they were instrumental in shooting down the 80s 'constitutional convention' push. Kharaku 19:03, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

This page tries to represent the views of the JBS in an NPOV way, and to represent the views of critics of the JBS in an NPOV way. If you don't understand what the JBS means when it claims that the world is run by secret conspiracies, please feel free to write them a letter.--Cberlet 21:41, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

I realize this is almost two years old and I probably shouldn't comment - however, I just can not keep from pointing this inconsistency out, especially if this was written by one of the people responsible for keeping the article neutral.

How can you represent the views of anyone in a Neutral Point of View way? What I think you were trying to say is that Wikipedia keeps the article NPOV by giving both of the two opposing points of view - It is an oxymoron to state that the page tries to represent the views of the JBS in a Neutral Point of View way, and to represent the views of the critics of the JBS in a Neutral Point of View way. One can not be a critic and be neutral at the same time.--68.205.196.217 (talk) 06:19, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if it really matters as it is probably just semantics - but you can present a 'neutral view' of someone's view. - in much the same way that you can take a picture of a picture. (and presumably you could present a neutral view of a neutral view of a view) eg. - this discussion page is full of some neutral and non neutral views of an article which is purporting to be a neutral view of some people's views). But anyway - there is some stuff in [Neural Point of View] that talks about how views or opinions can be presented 'neutrally' - ie making sure you say it is opinion, identify the group, and where you got the opinion from.

--Wideofthemark (talk) 11:19, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Buckley's role in marginalizing the JBS

I have read in multiple restrospectives on William F. Buckley that he basically marginalized the JBS from the conservative movement, based partly upon their conspiratorial nature, but mostly based upon their anti-semitism. Should this marginalization not be at least noted in the article? Bellwether BC 01:41, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Christian Anti-Communism Crusade

The article states: "In their early days, the JBS shared a common ideology and some overlapping membership with Fred Schwarz and his California-based Christian Anti-Communism Crusade." As Schwarz was always opposed to the JBS, this extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence. There might have been an overlap in membership, but their ideologies clashed. Alpheus (talk) 02:57, 9 May 2008 (UTC)