Talk:John Abraham (actor)

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[edit] Neutrality

No Personal feeling should be used to discribe the actor (dho 14:17, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC))

while the article has many sentences that are POV, you really shouldn't do any half-baked editing. pamri 11:25, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I seriously don't think that we need that statement to describe John. (dho 11:34, 19 Dec 2004 (UTC))

I didn't disagree with your view, just the way the editing was done. Anyways, I have removed the whole sentence and added a {{POV check}}, since the whole article seems to be written by one of his fans . pamri 05:58, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think it`s more or less neutral now, so I removed the POV-warning. --Plumcouch 18:12, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] John was born in Cherapunji?

I thought John was born in Bombay. Atleast thats what he says in all his interviews.Abhishek is JOhn

[edit] Vandalism

19:22, 23 April 2006 (UTC) I think this page is being vandalized because it doesn't need to be deleted. It's a part of Bollywood-related articles which are already quite a few. John Abraham is a growing actor and he is becoming an influential actor as his growth can be seen in the recent movies. You cannot delete this article. It's a useful reference to many people. 12:15, 23 April 2006 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shez 15 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Why Delete

Dont know about Vandalism but iam definately against htis article being marked for deletion i wonder why is it marked so —Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:|]] ([[User talk:|talk]] • contribs) atul83

I don't see why this page has to be deleted, i think alot of fans who likes John would love to know about his personal life....even my 4 years old brother likes John and he loves to know things about him..my brother sees John as a role model and it's great to know things about him... i thought John was muslim as he's surname is "Abraham"?..don't know why they bother keeping names like that if it doesn't mean nothing to them...?

[edit] Latest revisions

Calling him "Delicious" is not appropriate in an encyclopedia. If his mother is from Iran, she cannot be a Parsee; Parsees have lived in India for centuries. They are quite distinct from regular Iranians. It is not clear that she is Zoroastrian. I haven't found anything to support that. Someone repeated the info re Bipasha Basu.

I may go back and trim the article some more; it is full of unverified information, not found on the two references listed, the IMDB and his own website. Zora 12:16, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Shygal, I've found nothing to indicate that his mother was Parsi rather than Iranian. Do you have a reliable source that would prove that she is Parsi? We can't just put gossip column rumors here. We have to limit ourself to what we can show is factual. Zora 21:23, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, I did some determined googling and found a number of Rediff articles that refer to his mother as Parsi. Rediff is usually reliable, so I've changed the article back. Whoever entered that his mother was from Iran, seems to have been wrong. Sorry for the mix-up. Zora 03:08, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnicity

In the "making of" segment on the Water DVD, Abraham said one of his parents was Syrian Christian and the other was Iranian. The first would seem to negate the claim in this article that he was half Malayali. He may, however, have been loosely referring to Parsi as "Iranian." Does anyone have sourcing on the Malayali and Parsi claims?—CaptainCarrot 06:30, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

The Saint Thomas Christians (even Roman Catholics among them) in Kerala are also known as Syrian Christians (see here). This, as well as the Parsi claim is backed by this ref.--thunderboltz^(Deepu) 07:41, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edits by anon

An anon changed John Abraham's birthdate (IMDB has 72, not 82, and official site doesn't give age) and added various unreferenced and ungrammatical statements in odd places. I reverted. Anon, if you can come up PROOF for your statements they can stay in the article. Zora 05:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

If the rediff article is correct, then John's year of birth is 1973, not 1972. Gamesmaster G-9 16:48, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bipasha Basu

Bipasha Basu appeared on Karan Johar's talk show - Koffee With Karan - and spoke about the fact that her and John are engaged and she even described how he proposed. So, why is any mention of Bipasha removed from John's page?

[edit] Acting in Water

Someone had written that he won critical praise for his role in Water. Um, I read numerous reviews, and as I remember, most of them said that he sleepwalked through his role. He was not good. I rewrote to remove the inaccurate reporting. Zora 05:47, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Iranian claims

Borobaba, you completely munged the article in inserting your Iranian claims. I can't follow the Hindi in the YouTube interview, but I trust G (I'm blanking on spelling of username) when he says that John is saying that his mother is Parsi. For one thing, Parsi is likely, in Mumbai; Iranian is completely unlikely. Comments re Iranians being better looking than Indians are also completely unnecessary. Zora 20:28, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

You never been to India then. Lots of Iranians! If you never been there, you shouldn't make nonsense claims. Firouzaga 21:25, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Calling Parsis (who migrated waay back in 11th century) Iranians is like refering to descendents of Mayflower immigrants as Englishmen!

Born in Mumbai, India, on 17th December 1972, John Abraham is one of the most successful male models in India. His father is a Christian from Aluva, Kerala, and his mother is from Iran. From IMBD Other sources and he himself says the same thing. Firouzaga 21:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

IMDB material is user-supplied, like WP, and it is sometimes wrong. The John Abraham bio there now is a badly written mess and doesn't seem all that trustworthy. Firouz, I'm going to keep reverting from your version until you use the preview button and actually LOOK at the mess you've been restoring. You completely messed up the references and they're unusable without a lot of work. Put the references here, on the talk page, in usuable form and then we can discuss whether or not there's something to what you're saying.

I've been googling furiously and I think I might have found some clue to the problem here. In this interview [1], John Abraham's mother is described as cooking Parsi-Irani food. I looked further and found this para in a story about Irani cafes:

The people who started these joints are Zoroastrians who migrated to India from Iran at the turn of the 19th and 20th centuries. Legend has it that in their early days in India, the Iranis (the second generation of migrants) worked in Parsi (the first generation of migrants) homes and later gathered in the evenings to reminisce about their homeland. At one such gathering, one of the men apparently served tea to the rest and charged a small amount for it. This sowed the idea for Irani cafes. [2]

Then, I found the WP article on Irani :)

OK, so we have two Iranian Zoroastrian migrations, one early and one later, and apparently some mingling between the two groups. Irani in the Mumbai sense would then mean someone who immigrated to Mumbai 100 years ago -- not a recent immigrant from Iran. It's not at all clear to me just how separate the old and new Zoroastrian communities are and how much intermarriage there has been between them. John Abraham's mother could be descended from people of the first migration, second migration, or both. Perhaps it would be best to describe her as having grown up in Mumbai's Zoroastrian (Parsi-Irani) community, unless we have further information. I don't think that we should describe John as part-Iranian at all. He's a Mumbai boy, not an Iranian. Zora 23:59, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I dont think there's any evidence so far to support that he was not the child of a late immigrant from Iran. At this point, it's just your assumption, Zora, that Iran (Persia) and India never had any large scale contacts aside from the Parsi and Irani migrations. That's all.

For all I know, it is quite possible, and perhaps even probable, that his mom might have been an immigrant. Iran and India enjoyed strong cultural and social ties well into the 20th century. From the time when Persian lost its status as India's official language in 1844, to 1932 when Muhammad Iqbal published his Persian opus magnum Javid Nama, one can see extensive relations between Persia and India. The largest dictionary of Persian language up until the Dehkhoda compilation was Farhang-i Anandraj, written in India. In fact, up until the mid 1980s, a noticeable portion of physicians in Iran's rural areas were Indian nationals. There was much exchange between the two nations in the 1800-1900s, and some if not much of it was not even necessarily Zoroastrian related. Heck, I've been to India, and we were pulled off the street by someone and given free breakfast, just because we were "Persian". And even today, 3 of my classmates from the days of Tehran University are living in India.

So no, Abraham's mother being from Iran is not that improbable as Zora says.

I propose that we insert the information, but use quotes to clarify the claims and take out the objectivity which might turn out to be wrong, as we find more data later on Mr. Abraham's exact origins.--Zereshk 05:37, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

If you'd read the article to which I linked, you'd see a multitude of references to family links to Mumbai's Parsi community. John Abraham talks about all the Parsi weddings and other functions he has attended with his mother. That's not behavior you'd expect from a recent immigrant from Iran -- who would be much more likely to be Muslim than Zoroastrian, in any case.

Why so anxious to claim this guy for Iran? Zora 06:30, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Not a claim, but a fact Firouzaga 16:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Well John's mother might be Irani. But still that doesnt make her Iranian! We've had similar dispute at Freddie Mercury with Iranian guys calling him Iranian despite the fact that this guy was a Parsi, i.e whose ancestors migrated back in 10th century! Amey Aryan DaBrood^© 06:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes we all know how much you hate Iranians and want to deny their presence in India Firouzaga 16:43, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Firouzaga. I am afraid that i keep on placing SOLID references which include INTERVIEWS by John Abraham in whcih he clearly states that his mother is Iranian. I can place countless more references to prove this. For Gods sake HE SAYS hes Iranian yet you are saying hes not. He has never said he is Parsi. PLEASE CITE VALID REFERENCE that has him expicitly say he is Parsi. He is half Iranian. Borobaba2008 17:53, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Furthermore, If you do not cite a VALID reference i will report you to Wikipedia standards because you seem to be deleting my frankly excellent references and placing a rubbish 20 second youtube clip as a reference. Borobaba2008 17:53, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Borobaba/Firouzaga, it's clearly just you, switching between sockpuppets, editing from anonIPs, and haranguing us in all caps. You removed an interesting rant signed by Firouzaga and replaced it with a slightly less unhinged contribution by Borobaba. Please stop with the sockpuppetry. Zora 20:51, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and I looked at that article from the Hindu Times and he does say his mother is Iranian. But what does he mean by that? I suggest that he means "Irani" and is not choosing his English carefully. The other article I found, re his family and their style of cooking, clearly indicates that she's part of the Parsi-Irani community in Mumbai. Unless you can come up with something PROVING that she herself immigrated to Mumbai from Iran, all you've got is a linguistic confusion between Irani and Iranian. Zora 20:58, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

And what is your proof Zora? That he can "not choose his English carefully"? Or that he doesnt know the difference between "Irani" and "Iranian"? So now we get to decide if people (and references) know what theyre talking about?! You have to do way better than that.

What I want to know is why is using quotes not acceptable to you? That way we can refer responsibility of verifying the claim to the cited reference, and let the reader decide. And at the same time, the quotes imply subjectivity and a degree of uncertainty on behalf of the claim.--Zereshk 03:22, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

There must be someone from Mumbai here. Someone should just ask her! Zora 07:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Why do you insist that he is not Iranian Zora? Why? Why MUST you deny that he is Iranian at the expense of saying John doesnt know what the hell hes on about and he MEANT to say Irani. He has stated numerous times he is half Iranian, and even in the BBC webchat he states he would like to visit IRAN. It sounds very silly that you think YOU know better than HIM what his ethnicity is. Im sorry but the references are there and they are perfectly sound and solid and have come straight from John Abraham. If you question that his mother is from Iran than you must question everything on wikipedia. Stop clinging onto the hope that his mother is somewhat Indian. She is Iranian.

BoroBaba2008 07:01, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

JUST TO MAKE IT CLEAR THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT THE ETHNICITY OF JOHN ABRAHAM BECAUSE ALL THE INTERVIEWS, ARTICLES, REFERENCES, AND JUST ABOUT EVERYTHING ELSE SAY JOHN IS HALF IRANIAN. THERE IS NONE THAT SAYS OTHERWISE. SO PLEASE TO NOT MAKE UNFOUNDED CLAIMS THAT HE IS IRANI OR PARSI OR ZOROASTRIAN RELATED UNLESS YOU HAVE A SHRED OF EVIDENCE TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIMS. WIKIPEDIA REQUIRES YOU TO BACK UP STATEMENTS THAT YOU MAKE WITH SOUND EVIDENCE.

Just one thing. There is no such thing as an Indian "race" and no such thing as an Iranian "race". These are countries and their denizens of a particular nationality and culture. Only ignorant people confuse between the concepts. There are many "races" in India (from Mongoloid Mizo/Kuki/Nagas to Caucasoid Sindhis to Paleo-Australians in the South and the Andamanis etc.) and many "races" in Iran (Balochi, Kurdish etc.). Rumpelstiltskin223 10:15, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Irani Confusion

[3]

In an interview with Simi Garewal, he says that his mother was Irani, and her maiden name was Irani.

It's not unlikely that the Mumbai Iranis who immigrated in the early 20th century, maintained ties with family in Iran, which would explain why he speaks of kin in Iran.

I do think it's fair to say that his mother is of Iranian descent, but if she was born in Mumbai, to a Mumbai Irani family, it's misleading to say that she's Iranian without qualifying that a little. Zora 07:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you a lot Zora, at least you made an effort to bring up some sort of evidence. Well I think you will now agree that saying he was from a Parsi community is totally wrong as Parsis are Indian in ethnicity. As for the Irani claim, i think you do know that Iranis are FROM IRAN AND ARE IRANIAN. The only difference is that they are the small population of zoroastrians in Iran. Zoroastrianism WAS Irans religion but Zorastrians were persecuted in the 1930s and hence fled to India. Thats why ethnically they are 100% Iranian and very different from Parsis who immigrated to India thousands of years ago as opposed to 70 years ago with the Iranis. Iranis are still Iranian as they speak Persian and have full Persian culture and heritage. Parsis are not Iranian. Johns mother is simply a zoroastrian iranian migrating to India just like Pakistanis and Indians migrated to Britain. HENCE THE STATEMENT ' John is of mixed ethnicity with father Indian and mother Iranian' is still true as his mother is ethnically not Indian just as British Asians are not ethnically related whatsover to the British.

BoroBaba2008 04:58, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

What I've read about the Iranis is that this is the name given to some Iranian Zoroastrians who migrated in the late 19th and early 20th century. They mingled with the Parsi community already there in Mumbai, where they became known for running cafes. Hence the interview where John speaks about eating Parsi food and attending Parsi weddings. It's wrong to suppress those ties (which link him to India) and stress the Iranian alone. I also question your statement that the Parsis aren't Iranian and the Iranis are. You seem to have some personal, private definition of what it means to be Iranian. I should think that it means someone who is a citizen of Iran. Once he or she is settled in a new country, with the intent to stay there, that person becomes an Iranian-Indian or an Iranian-American or whatever. If Phiroza's family had been in Mumbai long enough to acquire the name "Irani", then she was surely born in Mumbai, and couldn't have been an Iranian citizen.

I think it's fair in this case to be exact rather than slapping a label on John and leaving it at that. Saying "Iranian" doesn't describe him as fully as describing his ties both to Iran and to the Zoroastrian community in Mumbai. Zora 19:03, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Parsi people are zoroastrians. Iranis are iranian zoroastrians. Parsis are Indian as going back about 30 or 40 generations they are Iranian. Iranis are from iran. They have nothing to do with parsis. Johns mother is an iranian zoroastrian. She is not from Mumbai, A mumbai girl or whatever you want to call it. Ethnically John is not Parsi. Parsis do not exist in Iran. Phirouza is a persian name and not a Parsi one. I will acknowledge that she belongs to a zoroastrian commun ity but saying she is Parsi is false as Parsis are not from iran. The sources all say that johns mother is iranian. PARSI IS NOT IRANIAN. Please get it right.

The interview that I cited above, in the talk page, clearly shows that John's mother cooks Parsi-Irani food and attends Parsi weddings. Irani and Parsi communities are not separate! If she was born in Mumbai, with the surname Irani, she's not Iranian. She's Iranian-Indian.

Why this need to label John Abraham as Iranian? Is it because he's a famous actor? Does it make an Iranian heart swell to claim someone famous? I see that sort of thing all the time, and particularly on WP, but I just don't understand it. You're not any different, or any better, if you can claim a link to someone famous. Their achievements aren't yours. You come into the world naked and all you can claim is what YOU do. Zora 10:51, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Thats very rude and silly. Im not linking myself to JOHN ABRAHAM. I am simply refusing to let people trample over Iranian culture like that. Come on its everywhere. People do not want their admired people to be linked in anyway to Iran, so they try and label them as something like Parsi, Persian, Persian Jew, Persian american, Zoroastrian american, and many more used as labels for people who are Iranian. An in answer to your query, WHY THE NEED TO DESPERATELY REFUSE THE STATEMENT THAT HE IS IRANIAN. Is something wrong with Iran?

BoroBaba2008

So you admit that you're on a mission to label famous people as Iranian, because you believe that otherwise Iranian culture will be trampled. Well, the purpose of WP is to give information, not to promote Iranian culture. Trust that if it's worthwhile, it will speak for itself. Iranian filmmakers (unambiguously Iranian directors who live in Iran) are certainly well-regarded by critics, to give one example. Zora 14:10, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Im not on a mission to lavel famous people as iranian. I label them iranian only if they do so, as John has. What are u on about? And why are u deleting Johns interviews and my sources. They are valid so stop deleting them.

Borobaba, all I took out was material that wasn't from the actor. If he's inconsistent in stating his background, naturally other sources are going to follow one or another of his statements. They don't prove anything other than that they took him at face value. Saying that he sometimes says Irani and sometimes says Iranian is true. What you're doing is paying attention to one thing he says, that you like, and censoring the other. Zora 20:17, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

What im saying is Irani and Iranian are the same thing except for the fact that her mother immigrated to India which i have acknowledged. You are saying they are conflicting but in what way. He clearly isnt Parsi so i think we can safely throw that out of the window, but problem is he says he is iranian in all the other interviews except that one you pointed out where he says his mother is Irani. So whats your suggestion on how to solve this?

Irani and Iranian are NOT exactly the same thing. Irani is a surname taken by people who settled in India up to 100 years ago, mixed with the existing Parsi community, and became Iranian-Indians. Iranian implies that someone was born in or grew up in Iran, and is possibly still an Iranian citizen. In the US, if you say someone is Italian, that's what it implies. It's more exact to say "Italian-American" for long-time immigrants or the second generation. There's not only intermarriage, but cultural mixing. The Parsi-Irani food that John's mother cooks is not Iranian food. Her surname, Irani, implies that she was born in Mumbai, to a family that had been there long enough to acquire the surname. See the [Irani] article. My own thought is that John said Irani when he was talking to an interviewer whom he thought would understand what that meant, and says Iranian when he's talking to people who don't know Mumbai and don't understand what Irani means there. That's just a guess, however. All we can really say is that he says two things that don't mean quite the same thing, which is confusing.

Oh, and I just remembered -- you've accused me of wanting to denigrate Iranian culture. Actually, I've done a fair bit for Persian culture. I did the bulk of the work in preparing two volumes of selections from Persian literature, translated into English, for Distributed Proofreaders. You can download the free ebooks from Manybooks.net [4].

Not the best translations of Ferdausi, Hafiz, etc., but the only completely free ones. Zora 11:26, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I think you new edits are pretty good now. I think weve acknowledged that we arent quite sure what he means when he says Irani or Iranian. I would add however that the interviews he did do were not with english people and the articles that were written were not english ones so they would have understood what Irani meant. In saying this however i cant be sure, and you cant be sure coz maybe hes got no idea what hes on about and therefore the article expresses that degree of abiguity. What we havent touched upon however, is that maybe he is purposely trying to present Irani as fully blown iranian so to add a touch of 'mixed-race' to himself just as the moron Dino Morea keeps referring to himself as Italian, and likes the media calling him the 'Italian stallion' so hes different and special.

Borobaba

[edit] Possible reconciliation?

I don't really have any axe to grind on this one - I didn't know anything about him before I started reading this article. My observation is that the contributors to this discussion do not agree on the evidence regarding his mother's origins. I propose that you come up with some text that quotes the facts as they are known (from interviews or articles) and then mentions the options. For example, the article in the Hindu quotes John as saying that his mother is Iranian - this can be quoted but then qualified by pointing out that he may be referring to the Farsi community. Incidentally, I cannot find anything that states that he sees himself firstly as a Keralite. However, if you can find it, you could mention it, but only alongside the following: in his bio on his site he identifies himself as a Mumbaiite (capital of Maharashtra State), and I think this should be quoted. I don't think you should identify him as Malayalee unless you can find a reference to that. You could also mention the fact that his father's background is Malayalee and from Kerala (if it is true, which is likely to be the case because he is quoted as being Marthomite). I recommend removing the reference to being loved by many but only loving one - if this is a quote from him, then identify it as such, otherwise just take it out.

Incidentally, his father is mentioned as being Marthomite. How do we know that? Does that mean he is associated with the Mar Thoma Church, or is it making a more general point that he is from the ancient community that traces its roots to the church founded by St Thomas (Mar Thoma)? Does anyone have any reference? I understand that there are a number of divisions in that community, and it would not be good to assign him to the wrong sub-group. :-) --Muchado 14:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why?

why do my edits keep getting deleted? Salaam-e-ishq, and Baabul were flops!!

[edit] Grammar

The grammar, punctuation, repetition and general level of English was very poor so I have corrected it but the content is the same.Fay06 14:36, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A few clarifications regarding John -- Contributors please discuss and edit accordingly

Howdy all. I made a recent edit including formatting, re-phrasing and adding a flim. I left the thesis of the entire article unaltered, becauce with all due respect I want you guys to discuss and make decisions accrodingly. (John is a friend of mine, but I am not very close to him and do not pry much into his private affairs, so I would only state what I believe, I hope you can be understanding as to not asking details that I do not know and cannot share)

Firstly about John's height, he's 6'1" (maybe a quarter inch under, but eh).

Secondly about John's background of birth, I don't follow what he states publicly, that might've led to conflicts and confusions to the public, regarding his parents' ethnic/religious backgrounds. But I do know that he refers to his mother as Parsi (and John's favorite food is Parsi), no questions about it. The "Iranian" thing is only what he infrequently uses to explain the origin of Parsis; especially to some less culturally informed foreigners (as I am), he would at times affiliate their understanding of his mixed bloodline by saying he's half Iranian. His mother is however always dressed in Hindu clothing, which can be assumed that she partakes in one faith or another of Hinduism. His father is Christian (and I'm not sure which denomination but assume it is Catholic) and is from Kerala. It is unnecessary to go into these details for lengthy discussions or publication - citing his parents ethnic origins (Parsi and Keralite) should do plentiful. I don't even think stating their faiths is necessary. John himself is often referred to as Christian by others because of his name "John" (and his father), but to my knowledge he does not participate in any organized religion and is rather agnostic, he still hasn't put a God (or Buddha) statute in the altar built on his flat's balcony!

Thirdly I saw that there is (in his "career" section) a speculation that he was to star in Prince of Persia. Well, I did paraphrase it and kept it as was, but I know that they are already casting for the movie and John is not there for it(either he was not called for it, or he rejected, which doesn't really matter). I understand that many fans may have believed that he had a significant chance in winning this role as he did lead other candidate actors by a leap on an online poll. So I guess will let the contributor who inserted the speculation choose how to deal with it, or other contributors may collectively decide.

Lastly, I suggest the additions of: his designer status ('John Abraham Clothing' line with 'Wrangler Jeans', launched in Dec 2006, which has been a bomb in its sales). His participation in humanitarian causes should also be added into his "career" (UN ambassador of anti-narcotics, Peta India spokesperson, etc.) because he has devoted a great part of his time and dedication therein. Other suggestion is that his ardant passion for motorcycling and his endorsement in the motorcycle/racing industry should be considered for addition as they are an unique identity of John (which also earned him much popularities among young fans) - other endorsements/accomplishments that are common fare among most Bollywood stars can (and I think, should) be left out.

Thanks guys. You are doing a good job... I hope that the English writing can be somehow significantly improved... I would've tred more editing, but again, I want to stay neutral and refrain from revising others' works and I hardly come on here. :)

--Indigo Mare 14:22, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, anyone can say they know John Abraham, that doesn't mean anyone will believe you, secondly what you "know" amounts to original research unless verified by independent sources. Fay06 00:35, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Fay06, frankly I cannot see your constructive point as to the article itself other than personally taunting a stranger? I respectfully left the whole article up to other contributors to decide as to make any major edition, I care not what some individuals think of me or of my knowledge - thou shall not sweat it. As to your notion of "original research", the factual/objective references to a living persona, such as height, ethnicity, religion, career CV, etc., are not new/novel knowledge dependent on third party's dicovery and articulaton - I deal with personas by profession, this much I can assure you, sweets ;) I in good faith have put my recollections and input out here respecfully for all to see, leaving no subjective/controversial private/personal matters of his. I encourage all to seek "qualified" independent sources; those who are confident in their qualifications for editions are left to themselves, you included, my dear. Happy editing and Cheers. --Indigo Mare 04:03, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I was refering you to the Wikipedia rules on original research not personally attacking you, I didn't make the rules up, they do exist and should be followed Fay06 13:22, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

My dear, I'm sorry but cannot help think that the intent of your citing the 'rules' was plain silly. Did you mean to remind me of such rules of no bearing herein, when I have not violated ANY wiki rules by willfil misrepresetations of facts, or by arbitrary edition of those in the main article? -- With due respect, you should have posted such a big cap 'reminder' elsewhere, if you indeed did not mean to "presonally" address it to me or relate it to my thread... I'm flattered by your attention and I thank you. For future reference, if there is an inquiry about any particular fact I've uttered, please address it restrictively and in good faith; otherwise, please be at peace ;) --Indigo Mare 19:41, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

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