Talk:Johannes Liechtenauer
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Liechtenhauer is technically a fencer, yes, but not in the sense that the fencing category suggests. Fechten is just one of many german words used to refer to martial arts. It has no connection to modern classical or sport fencing. Liechtenhauer has no connection to modern classical or sport fencing. Classifying him as a fencer is therefore misleading. He was the Grand Master of Medieval and Renaissance martial arts, and belongs in 'martial arts practitioners' with other martial arts creators.
The new classification also doesn't make sense given that 1) his students and the later Masters of his style all still remained in the initial category, 2) you invented a new category just for him ('Germany fencers'), and 3) he was from the Holy Roman Empire, since there wouldn't be a political entity called Germany for centuries still. Jaerom Darkwind (Talk) 05:45, 17 November 2005 (MST)
Well, I suggest we create a more fitting category then, "German school fencers", or something, so far, I have lumped anything pertaining to HEMA into Category:HEMA, but it may be time to do subcategories. Liechtenauer was clearly "German", even if there was no "Bundesrepublik" in his day, so we can put him in Category:German martial artists at least. The point of the "martial artists" category is not that these were "creators" or something, it is just the default category lacking further specification. dab (ᛏ) 15:44, 17 November 2005 (UTC)
- Well, the fact that he spoke old German has, I think, been the cause of more confusion in the HEMA world. (For example, the idea that some have proposed that the style of the Masters who spoke Italian was completely distinct from that of those who spoke German, even though they lived in the same empire, trade betwen their regions was constant, and the content of their respective manuals is extremely similar.)
- But anyway, I'd say that a Category:Masters of Defence would be great, and appropriate.Jaerom Darkwind (Talk) 13:27, 17 November 2005 (MST)
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- I daresay the German and Italian styles did have notable differences, even if they are not as different as some people believe. You have to realize that in the 15th century, "German" and "Italian" became the two big cultural poles in Europe. While it may be meaningless to talk of "German" nationality in the 10th century, it is certainly not meaningless in the 15th century. Anyway, I would perfer a category without the "Masters" characterization, so all practitioners can be listed, without debate of whether or not they were masters. Paulus Hector Mair for example probably wasn't a master, but it would still make sense to list him with the other fechtbuch authors. Fwiiw, these people were fencers, so it makes sense to list both Lichtenauer and Mair as "German fencers". Lichtenauer can furthermore be in Category:Martial arts school founders. dab (ᛏ) 08:42, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
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- I'd say that Mair was almost certainly a Master. His manual is among the most extensive we have, and it is all original material (in the sense that it was not copied in whole or in any part from any manual that we know of). No one who was not a Master could have knowledge that extensive. As to the Italians v Germans, keep in mind that the two regions had a common army that was very active--Italians and Germans were fighting side by side all during this time period. It's highly improbable to assume that the two ethnic groups had dissimilar fighting styles in these conditions.Jaerom Darkwind (Talk) 17:02, 21 November 2005 (MST)
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[edit] Modern Schools
A list of links to the web sites of organizations, groups, and schools make sense in some related articles. However, in this article the list of schools come off as just Link Spam. If this section remains then the list could grow to include links by every McDojo owner who has taken a workshop on Liechtenhauer's art. Unless someone can describe how these links add real value to the article I think we should plan on deleting this section.Ranp 23:45, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
I deleted the links to the schools. It just looked too tacky.Ranp 16:19, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
