Talk:Johann Tetzel
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[edit] Bias
This article had monstrous amounts of bias within it. Not only was it bordering on non-factual, it seems to have been written with no reagard towards Catholic doctrine, of, for that matter, Tetzel's own teachings.
I was forced to delete numerous amount of material from this articel. I do not feel that Wikipedia can afford to have that heavy of an offensive bias within it.
Please, I beg of you, write some quality, nonbiased material for this article if you come across it. I can not fix it all and maintain a high level of quality by myself. Chuximus 4/5/05
- This is not the Catholic encyclopedia, so articles do not have to follow Catholic doctrine at all. It is important in the history of protestantism. No book discusses the origin of Martin Luther's motivation to write his 95 theses and launce the Protestant Reformation without discussing the sale of indulgences by Tetzel. An article can always benefit from the intriduction of good scholarly reference, of which there are loads. Edison 17:28, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Revision?
c.1465–1519, German preacher, b. Pirna, Germany. He joined the Dominicans. He became a well-known preacher and was made inquisitor general of Poland at the instance of Cajetan. Preacher and salesman of papal indulgences, the son of Hans Tetzel, a goldsmith of Leipzig, was born there in 1465. He matriculated at the university in 1482, graduated B.A. in 1487, and in 1489 entered the Dominican convent at Leipzig. He early discovered his vocation as a preacher of indulgences; he combined the elocutionary gifts of a revivalist orator with the shrewdness of an auctioneer. He painted in lurid colors the terrors of purgatory, while he dwelt on the cheapness of the indulgence which would purchase remission and his prices were lowered as each sale approached its end. He began in 1502 in the service of the Cardinal-legate Raymond Peraudi; and in the next few years he visited Freiberg (where he extracted 2000 gulden in two days), Dresden, Pirna, Leipzig, Zwickau and Görlitz. Later on he was at Nuremherg, Ulm and Innsbruck, where he is said to have been condemned to imprisonment for adultery, but released at the intercession of the elector of Saxony. This charge is denied by his apologists; and though his methods were attacked by good Catholics like Johann Hass, he was elected prior of the Dominicans in Glogau in 1505.
In 1503 he preached an indulgence mission for the Teutonic Knights and in 1506 another along the Rhine. In 1517 his promotion of the indulgence for the erection of St. Peter’s Church aroused the indignation of Martin Luther, whose theses were in part promoted by Tetzel’s preaching. Fresh scope was given to his activity by archbishop Albrecht of Mainz. Albrecht had been elected at the age of twenty-four to a see already impoverished by frequent successions and payments of annates to Rome. He had agreed with Pope Leo X to pay his first-fruits in cash, on condition that he were allowed to recoup himself by the sale of indulgences. Half the proceeds in his province were to go to him, half to Leo X for building the basilica of St. Peter's at Rome. Tetzel was selected as the most efficient salesman; he was appointed general sub-commissioner for indulgences, and was accompanied by a clerk of the Fuggers from whom Albrecht had borrowed the money to pay his first-fruits. Tetzel's efforts irretrievably damaged the complicated and abstruse Catholic doctrine on the subject of indulgences; as soon as the coin clinks in the chest, he cried, the soul is freed from purgatory. in June he was at Magdeburg, Halle and Naumburg; the elector of Saxony excluded him from his dominions, but Albrecht's brother, the elector Joachim of Brandenburg, encouraged him at Berlin in the hope of sharing the spoils, and by the connivance of Duke George of Saxony he was permitted to pursue his operations within a few miles of the electoral territory at Wittenberg. Martin Luther was thus roused to publish his momentous ninety-five theses on the subject of indulgences on October 31, 1517.
Even Albrecht was shamed by Luther's attack, but he could not afford to relinquish his profits already pledged for the repayment of his debts; and Tetzel was encouraged to defend himself and indulgences. Through the influence of Conrad Wimpina, rector of Frankfurt, Tetzel was granted a Dr. of Theology of that university, and with Wimpina's assistance he drew up, in January 1518, a hundred and six theses in answer to Luther's, and their dispute became famous throughout Germany. But the storm overwhelmed him: sober Catholics felt that his vulgar extravagances had prejudiced Catholic doctrine, and Miltitz, who was sent from Rome to deal with the situation, administered to him a severe castigation. Tetzel soon retired in bad health to his monastery at Leipzig, where he was overwhelmed by the attacks of his enemies and the censures of the papal legate. Tetzel has been greatly overrated in importance. He had no thought of personal gain from his preaching of the indulgence. His teaching on indulgences was not in accord with the doctrine of the church; the sine qua non in gaining an indulgence is to feel contrition for all sins, but Tetzel did not require that for indulgences gained on behalf of the dead, only for those gained for oneself. He died at monastery at Leipzig in 1519, just as Luther was beginning his famous disputation with Johann Eck
Johann Tetzel
"When the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs."
Johann Tetzel, a Dominican friar, was the Pope's master salesman. Tetzel traveled from village to village with a brass-bound chest, a bag of printed receipts and an enormous cross draped with the papal banner. His entrance into the town square, with the papal bull announcing the indulgence on a velvet cushion, was heralded with bells, candles, flags and relics. Staging his show in the nave of the local church, Tetzel would announce, "I have here the passports...to lead the human soul to the celestial joys of paradise. The Holy Father [the Pope] has the power in heaven and earth to forgive sin, and if he forgives it, God must do so also." The cost of the indulgence, Tetzel was quick to point out, was cheap when the alternatives were taken into account. Among the demons and tempests in the medieval world, the indulgence, no matter the price, offered a glimpse of light in a world of darkness. In Germany, Tetzel exceeded his quota, as he always did. Indulgences were most popular among the peasants, yet it also hit them the hardest; they had the least money to spare. Tetzel's indulgence-selling campaign led Martin Luther to act on the frustrations that were consuming his thoughts. When Luther posted his "Ninety-Five Theses," the sales of indulgences dropped considerably. Tetzel, like Pope Leo, underestimated the power the monk from Wittenberg..—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.32.88.91 (talk) 18:49, October 30, 2005
[edit] "As soon a coin in coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs."
I find the fact that he used the above statement, because it rhymes to well in the English to be a translation of the German - unless possibly if it is a selective translation. Also why is its use described as "using the catchy line". It makes it sound like a jingle. And it takes away from the merit of the article. Chooserr 21:33, 29 December 2006 (UTC)
- Tetzel was a marketing genius. His little rhyme was intended to pry coins from pockets. There is also a surving sermon where he goes on asking how a man could let his dear mother remain one day longer in purgatory that she had to. As for he similarity, the English language is derived in large part from German, so it is no surprise that the same words are in both languages with slightly different spelling. Per Online Etymology dictionary, "spring (v.) O.E. springan "to leap, burst forth, fly up" (class III strong verb; past tense sprang, pp. sprungen), from P.Gmc. *sprenganan (cf. O.N., O.Fris. springa, M.Du. springhen, O.H.G. springan, Ger. springen). Edison 17:23, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
According to de.wikipedia, the original was "Sobald der Gülden im Becken klingt im huy die Seel im Himmel springt", normally known today in a modern version "Sobald das Geld im Kasten klingt, die Seele (aus dem Fegefeuer) in den Himmel springt!" which introduces the purgatory (in parentheses) and is, using that phrasing, practically a direct translation of the English phrasing used here. --84.60.121.105 06:25, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] An indulgence, 1517
I restored the fact tag on the translation. I don't think 'all saints' is correct - it's probably 'In the name of the All Holy' - i.e. of God, which is much better theology whether you're Catholic or not. -- BPMullins | Talk 00:52, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Aller is plural. The concept of "All" in the singular sense is expressed by the word ganz. Aller Heiligen means "all the holy ones," i.e. "all the saints." Fishal 19:28, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
- I had just enough German to know that aller is plural, but an indulgence in the name of all the saints seemed remarkable. I had the thought that the plural waa an intensifier similar to the use of elohim in Genesis for God. That said, if you're confident of the translation, please pull the tag for me. Cheers, -- BPMullins | Talk 04:35, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
- Will do. Fishal 20:53, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] authenticity of image bearing the name Tietzel?
The image purported to be that of an indulgence signed by Tetzel, is signed "Tietzel", not Tetzel. Knowing nothing in particular about whether Tetzel was known to have used both spellings, I searched the Internet and found no direct support for that possibility, other than a single reference to (apparently; my screen displayed no corresponding image) an image acknowledging the same (variant? mis-? fake?) spelling. To me, absent a discussion with references about the Tietzel spelling, the image's authenticity is doubtful and should perhaps be omitted from Wikipedia. However, I am not well versed in Wikipedia's approach to authentication as a prerequisite for inclusion of images. Anybody have any thoughts or information about this? Publius3 20:19, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Well, I've learned a bit more about the spelling of Tetzel's name. The tail end of the German Wikipedia article about him includes amongst its external references, an old (Fraktur) collection --now digitized-- of short biographies of Germans, that includes an entry for Tetzel. It mentions 3 variant spellings of his name directly. None happens to be Tietzel. Also says "u a m" which I suppose may be an abbreviation for "und auch mehrere" (and also more...); just guessing, don't know German abbreviations beyond 'usw'.
Also, it cites two spellings for his father's name, both beginning with D rather than T. Again, neither is Tietzel, but the latter of the two is Dietze (with no "l"). All of which suggests that the name we render today as Tetzel was rendered in the past in quite a few different ways. Does not really address how Tetzel himself was known to have signed his own name...or whether he would have even written all the indulgences himself, versus having some/all of them written by other monks. Publius3 21:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
