Talk:Joe Sakic

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Featured article star Joe Sakic is a featured article; it (or a previous version of it) has been identified as one of the best articles produced by the Wikipedia community. Even so, if you can update or improve it, please do.
This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or if there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard.

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[edit] "Šakić?"

I don't see the justification for spelling his last name that way. It's not reflective of the overwhelmingly common spelling or pronunciation in his native Canada or just about anywhere else. Aottley 06:50, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree, but given Joe's Croatian lineage, I think the Hrvatska spelling of his surname should remain in the article, along with an IPA rendering of it. My limited understanding of Slavic languages seems to say that his surname is actually pronounced Shak - EEtch (the way North Americans pronounce it, Sack - ick, can't possibly be correct), but since I don't know the IPA well enough to transliterate it, I'll just ask that someone else do it, please. Avalyn 03:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)
That spelling shouldn't be in the lead section, because it's doubtful that his Canadian documents have it that way. I had put it in the early life section because that's the most likely spelling of the surname of his parents, whose original documents could have had it that way.
As far as the surname itself - the 'ic' at the end is definitely 'ić', the Slavonic patronymic. The S at the beginning could be a S or a Š, but the latter is more likely because the Croatian phone directory (imenik.ht.hr) gives 62 results for Sakić and 489 for Šakić. The ratio is 3:119 for the county where Imotski is. --Joy [shallot] 02:56, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

In regards to having it at all: Unless there is a documented source proving that Sakic's family,, or ancestors, ever spelt it as Šakić, keep it out. I'm not saying that they didn't, and agree that it most likely was spelt Šakić in Croatia, but we need a source to prove it. So until then, don't add it back. Kaiser matias 04:34, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Seems fair enough. Kevlar67 23:20, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

[1] - [2] --necronudist 09:25, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

I have been unable to find any credible sources with that spelling of Joe Sakic's name, especially in regards to an official spelling. Jmlk17 04:31, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

He was born in Canada, so I really doubt his name is spelled with Slavic accents. However, if his father was born in former Yugoslavia, surely his is. So we can conclude that originally his name was spelled that way, but now it losts its Slavic accents. --necronudist 20:35, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Just because someone is born in a country whose language does not have the same letters, that does not mean that a name has to lose them. If I would be born in North America or wherever you prefer, I would keep being "Hernández" and not "Hernandez". But I think few people understand this point. Escorpión Canalla 11:50, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I bet many more people actually do understand. But I have yet to meet, nor find anyone who keeps accents from their ancestral homeland beyond a tilde or accent such as you have written. That's not entirely OR, but no NHL site, nor team site uses them. Jmlk17 04:11, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Because they don't have it on their keyboards and they're not going to bother themselves to copy and paste every time they have to write Šakić or other name. You can find lots of Croatian or Serbian websites where they write Joe Šakić (even though he's Canadian), because they do have those accents. There's a lot to talk about this... By the way, in Finnish, German, Dutch, Croatian, Slovenian (etc.) Wikipedias they put the accents. Escorpión Canalla 10:10 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, those Wikipedias do because they commonly use the accents in their everyday language, alphabet, and writing. Jmlk17 10:54, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Not all of them. German, Dutch or Finnish don't have those accents in their languages. But this thing about the names is funny. You can find here in the English Wikipedia Peter Šťastný, but his son is Paul Stastny. I don't get it. Escorpión Canalla 11:35 19 January 2008 (UTC)

They're not all accents! Š is its own letter different than "S." It would be almost like calling "John" "Kohn", "J" and "K" are different letters. Just because they look similar or even sound similar doesn't change the difference. EZC195 24 January 2008. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ezc 195 (talk • contribs) 11:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

This is ROFL: http://sk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Steven_%C5%A0aki%C4%87 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.47.34.86 (talk) 15:03, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Those characters can not be on his official papers because Canada does not recognize them. So even if his parents wanted it spelt like that, they would have no choice but to spell it Sakic. EZC —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.250.153.138 (talk) 12:24, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm all for diacritics, special characters, whatever when it makes sense. Sakic was born in Canada and lived in Canada all his life. There is no mention of his name being Šakic anywhere. Probably there is no Š in his legal papers, so... Look at what other wikipedias do: lv:Džo Sakiks.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 15:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] inconsistency of birthplace

isn't there some way to make this conflicting information more coherent? between the lines of text and the tet in the info boxes, this could be much more consistent. is there a source for his birthplace? -- Denstat 05:47, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

The NHL lists him as being from Burnaby, but other sources, such as Here, say Vancouver. However, Burnaby is part of the Greater Vancouver Regional District, and for all intents and purposes, would be considered Vancouver to most outsiders. Its a lot like saying your from Toronto, but really from York. Kaiser matias 23:35, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

I also just read the Encyclopedia of British Columbia, which states Burnaby. So until it can be proven otherwise with something as official, I'm going to delete the Vancouver reference. Kaiser matias 20:07, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Croatia or Yugoslavia

Over the last few days, numberous users have been chaning Sakic's ancestery from Croatia to Yugoslavia and back. All this time, there has never been a source for any of these edits. Well, I did a simple Google search for "Joe Sakic Croatia," and came up with several sources stating his parents came from Croatia. Yes, they left what was called Yugoslavia, but if you do your research, Yugoslavia was not one state; as it says on the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia article (where Sakic's parents would have left from), "the state was divided into six Socialist Republics, and two Socialist Autonomous Provinces that were part of SR Serbia." It is like saying that a Polish immigrant at the turn of the century was Russian, German or Austrian. They weren't, it just was the country ruling over them. So, unless anyone can prove that Sakic is not Croatian, but Yugoslav (which is a blanket term for all South Slavs, Croats included), don't revert again. Kaiser matias 21:53, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


It is very similar to Wayne Gretzky's heritage. He's of Polish background and his grandparents were Polish immigrants from a village which is now located in Belarus. It was a part of the Russian Empire at the time. This, however, does not classify him as being Russian or Belorussan, just Polish. As for Sakic, it should have been stated that his parents came from Yugoslavia, not Croatia. Yugoslavia was formed of several states, but they were NOT independent countries. Croatia was NOT an independent country at the time when his parents came to Canada. It was part of Yugoslavia.

Norum 22 December 2006

That is a valid point, with a very good analogy. However, according to the article Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, which would be the Yugoslavia of Sakic's parents, the state was divided into 6 socialist republics. It is similar to the former Soviet Union. It had several republics that were nominally independent, however all shared a unifying government. I'm going to make a change that should clarify the situation.

Speaking of the Soviet Union. Let's take Antropov and Ponikarovsky for example. Antropov is not a Kazakh. He's a Russian player born in the former Kazakh SSR. It does say he was born n Ust-Kamenogorsk, U.S.S.R. now Kazakhstan. Same goes for Ponikarovsky. He's Ukrainian, but it also specifies he was born in Kiev, U.S.S.R., now Ukraine. I think the way you have reverted to is good. Thanks.

Norum 24. Dec. 2004

Glad we've reached a consensus on this. However, it seems some people still do not like it. To whomever keeps changing this, there are reliable sources. The NHL reference is a notable one. And his speaking Croatian, which while a faulty point, is a good indicator he is/was Croatian. So simply put, stop changing this. Kaiser matias 21:41, 24 December 2006 (UTC)


I am not the one who is doing this Norum 24.dec.2006

I'm not accusing you of doing this, don't worry. It's random users without accounts who seem to not care about any established facts. Kaiser matias 23:40, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review

I had to fail this for the following reasons:

  1. The lead is too short and the structure of it needs to be greatly impoved. See WP:LEAD.
  2. No references in Quebec, but more importantly,
  3. the article has no paragraph structre, it's mostly 1 or 2 sentence chunks strewn everywhere.

So, it fails criterion 1c, and ceriterion 1 in general, among others. i would suggest a general expansion on his playing career, you guys can do fat better than that. this is quite heavily referenced though, so despite what I said in number 2, I really don't have a problem with that.--Wizardman 16:04, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Full Name

I can't find any source stating that his full name is indeed Joeseph Steven Sakic. If someone can get a source, that would be excellent. Kaiser matias 00:08, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't know how it works in USA but in Sweden you can simply contact authorities or some websites. Try this or the NHLPA. --Krm500 00:18, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Just rememberd that ESPN usually has full names of sports guys. Once again thanks. Kaiser matias 00:24, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New source added

I just added Sakic's HHOF Legends of Hockey profile into the external links. There's some interesting info there that isn't included in our wikipedia article, if anyone wants to take a look and integrate some of it in ColtsScore 07:54, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I used that site extensively for the the article. Just never thought of putting it up in the external links section. Good call. Kaiser matias 14:11, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA Review

GA review (see here for criteria)
  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS):
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    a (fair representation): b (all significant views):
  5. It is stable.
  6. It contains images, where possible, to illustrate the topic.
    a (tagged and captioned): b lack of images (does not in itself exclude GA): c (non-free images have fair use rationales):
  7. Overall:
    a Pass/Fail:
Comments

A very good article and easily passes the GA criteria. Just a few small things which aren't really required but will look a bit neater on the article IMO.

  • When I tend to write in Sports Bios I tend to use the {{mainarticle}} template just below the heading, for example for the Colorado Avalanche section you could put this:
Main article: Colorado Avalanche

Just below the section heading, this way the reader will be able to find the Avalanche link much more easily without going through the main body text to find the link. You could also try it with the Internation Career section, but link it to the Candian Ice Hockey team. Done that

  • In the lead sentence you have the birth details, but what I tend to do is not have the country in the PoB part - if he was born in the same country as his nationality then just put the location and state. So it would look like this, (born [...] Burnaby, British Columbia) rather then (born [...] Burnaby, British Columbia, Canada). Fixed that
  • For the succession boxes try and use {{s-sports}} and {{s-awards}} headings and sort each success under those two headings Not really sure what you mean by that, so I've left it
  • And get Image:Sakic3.jpeg on the Wikipedia Commons as it has the appropriate license. I have a lot of photos with the same license, and need to put them all up

Beside that, well done for producing an excellent article and good luck with it's further improvement.--Phill talk Edits 11:59, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for passing the article. It was a lot of work getting it here, and I'm glad that it finally made it. Now on to FA-status. Kaiser matias 02:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] All-Star statistics

I suppose I can move the all-star stats to the career statistics section. The reason I originally removed it was because I haven't seen it in most player pages, but it does seem noteworthy so I'll figure something out. Sportskido8 07:33, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it's noteworthy in the records he has set at the games. Jmlk17 07:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

What a great job you're doing with this article, Sportskido8. I just have one thing to say: I don't really think that it should be mentioned in Wikipedia that Sakic listed Tiger Woods or Ray Romano as people he'd have golf with. And I think the All-Star statistics are noteworthy enough to be mentioned, even if it is in prose only. Thanks for your work here.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 15:04, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

No problem. With the golf thing I guess I was trying to make "personal life" bigger since it's kind of small, but it doesn't need to be there. I may get rid of that. Sportskido8 16:26, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I have to say it's good to see someone taking control of the article after I had to let go midway through its FA nomination. And making it look much better than I could do as well. Good show. Kaiser matias 17:44, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Hear hear! Jmlk17 07:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Getting closer to FA

Once all the prose and the grammar are dealt with, I think this can go up for an FA-nomination. It shouldn't be hard to fix any objections that it gets. Sportskido8 06:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Once again, thanks for fixing up where I left off. I feel kind of bad for just abandoning it in the middle of the first nomination, but didn't have much choice. Kaiser matias 06:46, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
It's alright. It's tough to get it in on the first nomination anyhow. Sportskido8 07:45, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Common...anybody has better photo than this one?Virenque 09:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

Seems all has been fixed, and nomination has begun. Jmlk17 09:39, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
It's great that we're getting this up for FA again. At this time I am doing a complete review of this article to identify any potential manual of style issues. Two quick notes that I noticed: First is English vs. British (in this article, favour vs. favor, centre vs. center, etc.) - which are we using? Also, I believe the manual of style states using en dashes (–) in years, including years in situations where we'd say 2005–06. Right now, the wikilinks are to the season titles which do not use en dashes... should we simply change the appearance of our wikilinks or should we aim to have the article titles themselves overhauled? I'm not familiar with the policies or standards here. --SesameballTalk 00:30, 8 November 2007 (UTC)
And he played centre with the Nordiques, and he plays center with the Avalanche. -- Gene Nygaard (talk) 20:32, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

For the first question, I would guess British/Commenwealth spelling would be better, seeing Sakic is Canadian. In a personal matter, I'm Canadian and a major contributor to the article, so it helps me to use British spelling. About the en dash. I am not entirely certain about how that goes over through articles, but I am certain that the article titles should stay as is. Hope that clarifies everything. Kaiser matias 00:51, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment. It seems you are correct - on all the articles on the NHL awards featured list I checked, it uses the – formatting in seasons with the wikilink back to the article title (which uses the "-"), so I'll just go ahead and do the same in this article. --SesameballTalk 23:57, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Just on a pedantic point, there is no such thing as 'British English', it is simply 'English'. American English is the different language. Thanks. 131.111.195.8 (talk) 13:23, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New questions on number format and dashes in adjective phrases

  1. Format on numbers (e.g., eighty-three goals vs. 83 goals) and where to use them - the article used both formats in different places, and I changed season and post-season references to number format. I kept other mentions the same (e.g., "four goals in a game", etc.). I don't know if there is a hockey standard or anywhere in the WP:MOS that covers this.
  2. Format on adjective phrases (e.g., "100 point season" vs. "100-point season") - the former is what the article uses. I didn't change this yet, but I assume the latter is what is grammatically appropriate. I couldn't find an example in the Wayne Gretzky FA, but the Dominik Hasek FA does use "xx-win season".

Any comments of course appreciated. And if I've changed anything incorrectly please just let me know and I'll go fix it. --SesameballTalk 00:59, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ref probleme

Hello.

The ref #30 doesn't work anymore. --77.195.83.235 (talk) 23:03, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Exact date of achieving 800th career assist

Does anyone know when (the exact date) Sakic achieved his 800th career assist? Must have been in December 2002. Thanks! --Thomas ✉ 19:58, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[3] 7 March 2003 against Tampa Bay Lightning.--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 09:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks a lot!!! --Thomas ✉ 22:40, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] All star game 2008

Sakic was the 5th most voted forward for the Western Conference all star roster,[4] but did not play because of his injury of course. Shouldn't this be mentioned? And how?--Serte [ Talk · Contrib ] 15:02, 25 January 2008 (UTC) Well, he wouldn't have been a certain pick anyway - only the top three voted players are picked for each conference as starters. Though I don't doubt he would have been included anyway. 131.111.195.8 (talk) 20:13, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

It might be mentionable... Jmlk17 21:09, 19 February 2008 (UTC)