Talk:Joan Miró

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[edit] Catalan

Ok, the individual in question, like Antoni Gaudí or Pau Casals, insisted during his life in being Catalan, being Spanish citizens at the same time; and if you accept tagging people as Scottish and not British subjects or places as in Scotland and not Scotland, UK...

 Perique des Palottes 2002/07/23

Perique, I see your point on him being Catalan and the similarities with Scottish or Welsh. However, most readers of this encyclopedia, which is in the English language, will not know that Catalonia is actually a part of Spain, while they do know that Scotland is actually in Great Britain.

So, the question here is: consistency or readability. Of course I'd favour both, but writing "Catalan Spanish" doesn't look pleasing to my eyes. Maybe you can explicitly mention that "Miró considered himself to be Catalan; Catalonia is an autonomous region in Spain." or something like it.

Maybe you, or somebody else has other proposals for solving this problem? Jheijmans 02:24 Jul 23, 2002 (PDT)

This encyclopedia is in the English language, and this is why I think of it as neutral and international as, I hope, many of its readers will not have English as their first language and will not have a UK or US centered education or culture.

So, it is probable that they will have about the same chances of locating Virginia, Kurdistan, Wales, Catalonia, Montserrat or Denmark on the map. Or even of saying if they have been, are, o might be regions or nations or places or countries or whatever. And if they cannot, then they will be able to after reading this encyclopedia and/or following its links.

Moreover, if you want to follow that argument, there is an area named Catalonia outside of Spain as well, where people call themselves as Catalans, while Orcadians and Shetlanders do not consider themselves as Scotish, while they are usually included in the pack.

Now, any constructive proposal?

 Perique des Palottes 2002/07/23

I see your point... Maybe we could try and standardise this, always mentioning the country of the person (or place, for that matter) in question (so also say Britain iso Scotland). However, this does not entirely clear us from problems, as "country" is (and certainly was) not always well defined; to keep it in Spain, I suppose many relevant (to an encyclopedia) people from Basque will consider themselves to be from that "country", which is however not recognised by anybody.

On the language topic; I agree that it is international, but it is still English language, and that means also somewhat English oriented. The island of Mallorca is at Majorca, because that's the English name for it. But, no, that doesn't mean it should become US/UK-centered, I agree.

Jheijmans 02:58 Jul 23, 2002 (PDT)

That "catalan-spanish" definition is clearly an anachronism, its use is very recent and it is used mainly by nationalists, implying connotations as two different identities or nationalities, not complementating ones (that is Scottish-English, not Scottish-British; if we could really compare it, because comparing Great Britain with Spain isn't very accurate neither).

I also think it is biased to put the link of Catalan to "Catalan people" and not Catalonia while puting the link of Spanish to "Spain".

Also are we going to put in all Andalusian notable Spaniards as "Andalusian-Spanish"? Or even are we going to define dictator Francisco Franco as Galician-Spanish? Franco didn't denied being Galician and Spanish.

I think the better option should be "a Spanish painter, sculptor and ceramist born in Barcelona, Catalonia." or anything that would define himself as one of both identities and then specifying (being the structure "Spanish and inside Spain, Catalonian", or "Catalan, which is part of Spain"), but I can't find the formula with my not so good english. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.26.84.138 (talk • contribs) 13 November 2006.

Spanish as ethnicity is certainly inclusive of the Andalusians, so that is a straw man. Miró's being Catalan is not just a matter of place of birth, it is a matter of ethnicity. I don't have strong feelings either way on how to categorize Franco, except to remark that he, having been a strongly centralizing Spanish nationalist, would probably not have wanted the term qualified. - Jmabel | Talk 22:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal Catalan speaking world box

I think the Catalan speaking world box should be removed from this page for 2 reasons:

1) I think the Catalan speaking world box does not any useful information to this page, and therefore should be removed. After all Miro was a painter not a poet! More explicitly of the box contents the following main chapters have no relevance to this article as far as I can see: Language, History, Geography, Government; leaving only traditions and arts, which in my opinion is way to weak to allow the inclusion of such a large and dominat box.
2) Is about the nationalistic impression of adding this box. Why should we add a 'x speaking world' box to a (non language) artist. Can you imagine that we add an 'English speaking world box' to Pollock, and Warhol and Henry Moore etc. Or a Dutch speaking world box to Rembrandt, or an Italian speaking....etc (you got the point). I think we can all agree that this would be plainly ridiculous. So the only reasons that it should be added to Catalan artist is a Catalan nationalist feeling, which in my opinion is a very subjective reason which should not be taken into account (especially not in an English encyclopedia where the Castilian Catalan controversy is not well known). Of course there is plenty of room in the text (as indeed implemented) to talk about Catalan origin of Miro. The box is just overdoing it. Arnoutf 23:21, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
We've been around this elsewhere. As I wrote at Template_talk:Catalan-speaking_world#Not_only_Picasso, "This template isn't mainly about language. It's an effort to use language as a method to split the difference between whether or not to handle the Catalan-speaking world as a "nation". Miró, in particular, is pretty iconic for the Catalan world. Banks derive logos from his design; there's a Miró mosaic in the middle of the Rambles." Pollock, Warhol, and Henry Moore do not have this kind of iconic status. Rembrandt does, and I'd expect a template on the Dutch-speaking world to include him. So, no, we cannot agree that this would be ridiculous. And this is not a matter of "the Castilian Catalan controversy", this is a matter of how we handle Catalan and pan-Catalan identity: it has absolutely zero to do with Castile.
I'm not going to edit war over this, but I think you are dead wrong, and would welcome others' opinions. - Jmabel | Talk 02:58, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
I think Miro is larger than Spain (or Catalunia) as is Rembrandt is larger than the Netherlands. But I can respect your arguments, indeed I would welcome others opinions on this as well Arnoutf 18:30, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

"Catalan-speaking world" template is a brilliant idea in order to link toghether some disperse articles on catalan culture that trascend the estrict territory of Catalonia, avoiding the politically charged term "Catalan countries". Such an effort to use language as a method to split differences should always be encouraged and I support it. This template supplies useful information and introduces issues (even unexpected) on the Catalan culture. So I welcome it in articles like Catalonia, Menorca, Catalan-language, Catalan architecture or History of Andorra...

It is possible that this information can have no relevance to a user looking information on Miró, in particular the Government or Geographics issues. I mean that the template have not the same use in both directions: it's useful to somebody that focus on "Barcelona" and afterwards found Miró, and not that useful to sombody that looks for "Surrealism" and afterwards found Miró. I think this is the central point of the controversy. I have not a solid opinion on it. Maybe a "Catalan-speaking culture" template can help, but visual arts seems to be excluded... --Joan sense nick 00:11, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Joan sense nick, for the comment. Indeed my proposal to remove the box stems from my search for the painter Miro. If my search had come as the result of a surch through e.g. Barcelona, I would never have suggested a removal. Perhaps there is a possibility in the middle, with a much smaller box for importatn Catalunians that have transboundary importance (such as Picasso and Miro). Such a box could lead to an 'umbrella' article for the Catalan speaking world. An extensive box could then be applied to undoubtedly Catalunian articles, regarding histroy, language and literature. Arnoutf 15:38, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the Template:Catalan-speaking world shouldn't be here. IMHO only a part of it (Arts) belongs here. I hope you agree so as to edit the article. yanis 11:07, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you, the article seems more NPOV without it and the layout looks neater. bbx 15:08, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation

How does one pronounce his first name? I suppose I want to know how it is pronounced in Catalan (ie how he pronounced it) as well as how the English speaking art community commonly pronounces it (if different). I have seen 4 different pronunciations on the internet : ho-an, hwan, jo-an, and zho-an. Mauvila 03:37, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes, the one that I have always used, and likewise for the name Juan is 'hwan', with a slight guttural sound on the H. It sounds like 'one' but with an 'h' in front. I am from England and have never heard it pronounced differently. Vanderdecken 15:37, May 19, 2005 (UTC)

"Joan Miró" should be pronounced in Catalan as [Zu'an mi'ro], or in pseudo-english spelling joo-AHN mee-RAW. Perique des Palottes 10:56, 17 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup Tag

Lots of great facts, but the writing is disjointed. Minor cleanup needed.

Has the above debate ever been officialy settled? Lampros 05:01, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

I agree. There should be clear information about where he was born, where he was died, etc.Geyiming93 20:45 29 March 2007

[edit] Your pics

i realy like your pics and they inspire me. i am in juvy and i am only 14. looking at you pics has helped me.Iam going to Florda in a cuple of days and i am going to bring some pics of yours that i got the internet.I really wish i could meet in person but i know you are to busy for a little kid like me but hay if you have the haert to send me one of your pics i no that that would make raelly happy. my addres is: address removed oya my name is YESEANI GUZMEN) well i know you do not want to here my life story but i hope you right me! LOVE, YESENIA GUZMEN

I feel very sorry to to say this, but this is an article about an artist who died over 20 years ago. So, it's not that he's "too busy": he died before you were born. - Jmabel | Talk 02:38, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Death

What did Joan Miró die of?

Thank You in Advance

Joan Maxwell —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.74.21.46 (talk) 2006-03-03t21:12:29z

I am not sure, but since he died 90 years of age, died of old age seems a reasonable guess. Arnoutf 11:35, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Google homepage link and resulting vandalism.

[edit] He's on Google

Does anyone know why his work is on the Google logo today?–Clpalmore 4:12, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure exactly what the emphasis in your question is... do you mean "why him?" or "why today?" or "why google decided to do this?" etc. If you mean "why today?", it's because it is his birthday(113th). Lookingforgroup 04:30, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

--- Sorry Miro is no longer on Google's homepage cos of some controversial claims from Miro's Family and the ARS, Philipp Lessen's Blogscoped has more on it. As of Thursday afternoon, Google removed the logo after being threatened with a breach of copyright lawsuit by the Miro Family, to me this sounds ridiculous but again.. that's what happened. Cheers, Angelo @ Google's World 82.194.62.22 09:18, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


"Google" was created very Miro-esque that day because it was his birthday. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Artpub (talk • contribs) 19 May 2006.

[edit] External links

I cannot figure it out. In the External Links section there is a link to "Miró at Olga's Picture Gallery". But it actually leads to some weird page (http://www paraparapu com/) although in the page source I can only see the proper link (http://www.halter.net/gallery/miro-os.html). Any idea why?... aiks 07:28, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Now there is only this strange link (http://www paraparapu com/) in the source page. I guess somebody is making jokes aiks 08:13, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Google spam

Considering this is an article about a significant artist from pre-google days, I don't see why the reference to the google-logo in miro-style is necessary; looks more like spam to me and I suggest to remove the line.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.8.98 (talk) 2006-04-20t08:30:34z

Section rewritten and moved to Google logo. -- Jeandré, 2006-04-22t12:54z

[edit] Google diversion

The used Miro's birthday to throw off national pot day, and Hitler's birthday as well.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.222.139.161 (talk) 2006-04-20t13:05:02z

[edit] Google Picture and Need some reorg on the site

Hi,

This page needs some reorganization, as well as a way to make sure that the link for Google, always returns the special Logo created for Joan Miró. Just having a link to Google, will stop showing the logo a day after. Chirag 15:45, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some nitwit has defaced this page (references to Hobbits)

Now that is surreal!—Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.42.46.162 (talk) 2006-04-20t17:41:55z


[edit] Proposal: Instantly ban anyone who changes his ethnic identification to Spanish

This will annoy us all day. lots of issues | leave me a message 18:56, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Psst, he WAS born in Barcelona, hence the spanish ethnic identification.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.15.232.106 (talk) 2006-04-20t19:03:52z
Spanish would be one possible political/legal identification. But if you call him spanish you're losing information from his cultural group, which was catalan, which is also a political/legal identification (meaning inhabitant of the autonomous region of Spain, which capital is Barcelona).
Catalan is more descriptive in this case, and consequently i changed it. Anyways a link to Spain appears in the first sentence, this should clear any misunderstanding a reader could have if he ignores about the existence of Catalonia or his culture.
BTW, have a happy Diada de Sant Jordi (or International day of the Book) today, got your book and/or rose today?. --62.57.90.7 21:13, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of Google Logo section

I removed the section wich covered the Joan Miro logo incident. The issue is covered on the Google logo page, which is a more appropriate location. Also, the entry is clearly plagarized from Slashdot. (I'm making the assumption that the two do not share common authorship.) See the original Slashdot writeup, the section in this article is clearly not original writing. Oasisbob 00:06, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

That the issue is more appropriately covered on the Google logo page is debatable. That the section was plagiarized from Slashdot, however, is ludicrous. The only commonalities they share are the overall subject being dealt with and the common quotations (properly attributed) from the President of the ARS. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 22:13, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Can someone paste the section here for review? Thanks. —Viriditas | Talk 09:32, 27 April 2006 (UTC)
Link to diff where the section was removed. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 16:21, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

[Slashdot article]

Anonymous Coward writes "In a homage to Joan Miro on his birthday, Google changed its logo as to spell out the word "Google" in Miro's style. Google has a history of changing its logo in order to commemorate events and holidays of particular significance. In this case, the homage was not well received by the Miro family or the Artists Rights Society which represents them, as reported by the Mercury News. According to Theodore Feder, president of the ARS, "There are underlying copyrights to the works of Miro, and they are putting it up without having the rights". The ARS demanded that Google removed the logo, and Google complied, though not without adding that it did not believe it was in violation of copyright. The ARS has raised similar complaints regarding Google's tribute to Salvador Dali in 2002. "It's a distortion of the original works and in that respect it violates the moral rights of the artist," Feder said." It seems to me that the art world has a glorious history of incorporating prior art into modern creations. It's amusing to me that ARS doesn't understand that.

Section in question:

On April 20, 2006 (Miró's birthday) Google unveiled a tribute logo in honor of Miró's contribution to the art world. Google frequently alters their logo for a single day to honor a holiday or other occasion. The Artists Rights Society (on behalf of the family of Miró) asked Google to remove the logo, alleging that portions of specific artworks by Miró were utilized without permission. According to Theodore Feder, president of ARS, "there are underlying copyrights to the works of Miró, and they are putting it up without having the rights". Google complied with the request, but denied that there was any violation of copyright. This is not the first time that ARS has contacted Google. In May of 2002, they asked Google to remove a logo that incorporated portions of works by Salvador Dalí, which Google later removed. Feder remarked, "It's a distortion of the original works and in that respect it violates the moral rights of the artist.

Although the wording has been slightly altered, the summary is a clear duplication, sentence by sentence:

  • Sentence introducing that Google changed their logo in honor of Miro.
  • Acknowledgment that Google often changes their logos to celebrate holidays or other events
  • Description of opposition by Miro family in cooperation with ARS
  • Usage of the same quote from Theodore Feder, with the same introduction "According to Theodore Feder, president of ARS..."
  • Statement that Google removed the logo to comply with the request, ending with Google's belief that they were not in violation in copyright.
  • Statement that this is not the first time ARS has complained to Google, citing Salvador Dali.
  • Abbreviated version of the Feder quote in the Slashdot article.

The Slashdot article was not cited, this is clearly plagiarism. Oasisbob 22:42, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

First of all, you didn't quote the Wikipedia section correctly, as you left out the reference that was cited (Ackerman, Elise (Apr. 20, 2006). Artist's family asks Google to take down 'painted' logo. Mercury News. URL accessed on 2006-04-23). Second of all, I don't see any plagiarism, so I don't know why you have made that claim. I agree with User:Dante Alighieri on this matter. —Viriditas | Talk 02:51, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
You're right, I didn't quote it right, my mistake. So, here is my question: If this section really was original work, using the Mercury News article as a source, why does it have the same syntax, sentence order, quotes, and even approx. length as the summary written for slashdot? Unless one believes that the similarity is a coincidence, this is plagarism. It was the original Slashdot author who summarized the Mercury news article, chose the quotes, and created the narrational structure. Syntax, ideas, and research are all covered. Oasisbob 08:58, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Without lending credence to your claim, the original Slashdot poster was anonymous, and as far as I can tell, Slashdot copyright does not apply to his comments. Also, it is common for widely reported stories to make use of the same quotes, as I found them on at least four different articles. I don't see any problem, nor any plagiarism. —Viriditas | Talk 11:34, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Oasisbob, if you are going to keep making baseless accusations of plagiarism, I'd start being concerned about libel. --Dante Alighieri | Talk 04:55, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
I don't mean to accuse, you're obviously an accomplished member of Wikipedia. However, what I've pointed out above is accurate and without malace. I'm focusing on the contribution, not you Dante. Oasisbob 08:58, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Well, for the record, I did summarize the Mercury News article independently from Slashdot. The Mercury News happens to be my local paper, which I receive every day here in the Bay Area. I see your point about the "similarities", but please reflect on the following. The syntax is only the same in that both summaries make use of basic English in the style of a news report summary, there does not seem (to me) to be anything particularly distinct about the style or syntax. The ideas are the same because they are both summaries of the same source material, and there are key points that are relevant to the issue. The quotes chosen were indeed the same, and (I believe) if you review the Mercury News article, the most appropriate quotes to use. The length is similar in that they are both approximately one "average-sized" paragraph long... standard for a summary. They follow the same basic structure (note that the sentence orders are not precisely identical) because both were drawing from the same source material... the Mercury News, which order the two summaries both followed (for lack of a good reason to rearrange the order of the concepts).
Further differences between the articles.... the slashdot article claims that the logo was an homage to Miró on his birthday, my summary uses the language (admittedly without source) of Google's press statement, ("Joan Miro made an extraordinary contribution to the world with his art and we want to pay tribute to that."). My summary makes it clear that beyond being displeased, the family of Miró (through ARS) alleged that specific artworks had been utilized without permission, rather than the logo simply being in the "style" of Miró... a point that the Slashdot article neglected to mention. If anything, the added information in my Wikipedia summary illustrates that my source was the Mercury News article, not Slashdot (don't forget the link I added to the MN article at the end of the summary as well.
While I don't assert that you are making the accusation out of malice, please reflect that you are in fact accusing me of something. You even went so far as to call it "clearly" plagiarism. I consider the matter closed from my end (I've taken pains to explain my position as to the complete lack of plagiarism, either intentional or accidental), and accept that you have nothing against me personally. :) --Dante Alighieri | Talk 02:21, 29 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Commentary

Anyone know were I can get some comentary on Miros work, Im doing a project on him for spanish and I need to know where I can get some comentary (English or Spanish) (The MAtrix Pwns you) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Neoanderson2003 (talk • contribs) 2 May 2006.


I'm doing a project too and need help. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.184.44.196 (talk • contribs) 1 June 2006.

[edit] Miro quote

"in his words "murder" and "assassinate" and or "rape" them" Can we find a source for this refrence, prehaps an in-context quote? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.248.248.254 (talk • contribs) 4 May 2006.


[edit] Adding an External Link

We are an international fine art gallery and publisher located in Scottsdale, AZ. We represent the original works of Joan Miro including aquatints, carborundums, and lithographs. We are secondary market specialist in buying and selling and our focus is that of the original 20th century masters including Warhol, Picasso, Miro, Botero, Rockwell, Wyeth and more. Is it possible to be added to your External Links for Miro as a source to acquire his works?

You can visit our website at www.americanfineartgallery.com, not all of the artists we represent are currently listed on our site, we are working on reconstuction of it to include all of the artists we feature.

Thank You, American Fine Art Editions, Inc. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Artpub (talk • contribs) 19 May 2006.

We do not normally link to commercial sites. Frankly, just giving your URL here on the talk page borders on commercial spam, by our standards. The only possible exception would generally be if you had an extensive, informative page about the artist; even then, the commercial nature of your site would be an argument against linking to it, unless it was uniquely informative compared to other sites available on line. - Jmabel | Talk 22:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Merge 4D painting

Support As the 4D article is now a 1-liner stub is support. If the 4D article develops further it might warrant its own article though Arnoutf 17:49, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trimming links

I'm trimming commercial external links that don't have much Miró material. I'm of two minds about the FantasyArts.net link: there are rather decent reproductions of half a dozen interesting pieces, but there are also an awful lot of ads (through Google AsSense, it appears). Others' thoughts? - Jmabel | Talk 05:52, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Similarly for abcgallery.com. Very nice material, but really annoying animated GIFs, pop-ups, etc. - Jmabel | Talk 05:55, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Miro Museum, found in the United States

I reworded the section about an award he was given "for all his works" in "Miro Museum, found in the United States".

But the bigger problem is - what is this museum? Can anyone provide a source?

Thanks in advance. --Amir E. Aharoni 16:17, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

No reply for a month, i'm removing it. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 15:10, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Posthumous sale

Joan Miro's "La caresse des etoiles," was sold to an anonymous bidder for $ 17 million at Christie's auction in New York on May 6, 2008.Afp.google.com, Monet fetches record price at New York auction --Florentino floro (talk) 07:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)