User talk:Jmabel/Archive 52

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Current issues on Vladimir Tismăneanu

Joe, it appears that I have to trouble you again on this issue. This may form part of the requests you are not answering, but I'll take a shot at it. I respect your competence and your neutrality, and you know me well enough by now to be able to comment on my supposed or real POV. A complicated debate has recently risen on this article, and I feel that I am being subjected to untenable accusations, and that a group of users makes use of templates to manipulate information without being able to cite wikipedia policies which the text has broken. If you have the time and patience, I would like to ask that you look into the matter and help establish what is supported and what is not in my detractors' theories on the text and on my person. Thank you. Dahn 10:39, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you again for your outlook. However, I feel that much of the issues in the debate have been obscured, and I have clarified why the text looks the way it does and why most or all of the tags are POV blackmail in a new section. I would appreciate it if you read my comments on Talk:Vladimir Tismăneanu#Facts vs. fiction: the tags and the scandalous reasons behind them. Dahn 11:31, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Sorry for jumping in, I want you to try to relent Dahn's behaviour. He's currently expanding the conflict emerged in that page for which you already intervened. He commented in some other user talk's page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Attilios#Hi calling his opponents "Romanian detractors", his new comments are actually a straw man (he accuses the user Vintila Barbu of the contributions made by the user Dc76 and though afterwards Dahn admits that himself he doesn't apologize and tells me to stop harrasing him!; later edit: now he modified the talk page and simply replaced the names) where again he calls his opponents users with "strong agendas", his language is generally arrogant, ireconciling and insulting at times. He also appears to keep track of his past conflicts (I've noticed he previously had issues with the users involved, while his hostility on me started from the debate he had with me on Talk:Getae and amplified gradually in other pages). I voice my concern on the good intentions of the user Dahn and on his ability to resolve the conflicts he has with other users. Daizus 12:48, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Spin. Dahn 12:53, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Guys, I'm not wading further in. You have my comments. This is exactly what I have been trying to avoid. - Jmabel | Talk 17:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Question about new edits on the Oscar Wilde page

Hello Jmabel. Editor Neal kydd has recently made a series of edits on the Oscar Wilde page without providing sources and which seem to me to have a touch of original research. While I could be wrong about the orig. res. aspect the message on the editors talk page seems to bring it into question. In any event the lack of sources is the bigger issue and I am wondering if you might be able to give this editor some direction in this area (if you have the time). It is also possible that I am out of line about this which is why I have come to you as I know that you will let me know if I am and I want to avoid a revert war. Many thanks for your time in this matter. MarnetteD | Talk 16:45, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Since my above message another change has been made removing some of the article as it stood wothout any comment why in the edit summary and another question has popped to mind, in that, if this editor is adding passages from their published works is there a copyvio problem on the horizon. Again, I could be off base but I wanted to make you aware of all of this. MarnetteD | Talk 17:02, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
One further note. I had not read your user page before posting my messages. If your frustration with wikip means that you would rather not look into this my apologies for bothering you. If you can recommend someone or somewhere else to relate my concern to than again I will offer my thanks. Take Care. MarnetteD | Talk 17:08, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm not really willing to wade into this, but I did look. As far as I know (and I've read a couple of biographies of Wilde), he has his facts basically right, he has done a poor job of citation, and he's made some errors in spelling and punctuation. Offhand, I couldn't quickly see what might have been removed, so I can't comment on that.

I'd suggest that you fix his spelling and punctuation, and that you press for clarification of his citations, which are certainly not enough to let anyone find his sources and verify them. Feel free to quote me or to direct him to my remarks here. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:04, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Getae

I hope you won't take it as impertinence, I'm simply appealing to you because it looks you know Dahn (he said to you "you know me well enough") and you seem a reputable user in this community.

I also have a problem with Dahn on Getae. I started a RfC to no result, I even conceded to his arguments (he argued on a bit of a text, particularily the word "but", which though I don't think he's right I have removed it on his request) and he keeps tagging the page as WP:OR (nota bene: he added the tag to my grievance, you can check the edit history: "have a tag" is his reason!). He told me he won't give up until I'll drop my "OR" (which frankly I don't know what it consists of) so I'm really wondering if I have any chances with other methods of resolving a dispute. From what I've read, the only way to make that page right is arbitration. However RfA-s seem to require that I should have tried other methods. Since Dahn doesn't want to hear other arguments (he calls them "sophistry" and "chorus" and he explicitely told me I'm making them in vain!), I am not sure to what purpose should I try other methods? What exactly can appease him?

I know you're busy, I don't want you necessarily to read that lengthy debate (and perhaps uninteresting for you), just an advice. Thank you very much in advance, Daizus 16:12, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I apologize for bothering you, it seems he finally conceded with a different order of the sentences in the paragraph! Daizus 16:17, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Daizus, I had made my point clear on the talk page. As clear as dew.I had cited the guideline you were braking and the way in which you were breaking it. You started arguing pointlessly and endlessly, engaged an irrelevant pep talk with some of your pals, and theorized and then theorized some more about Boia's validity as a reference. I cannot be expected to play on your court every time you feel like it, so I just refused to answer beyond the evidence I have cited - given your spin and your failure to answer to the point. Do I make myself clear? Dahn 16:19, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
As to the point I made about order of sentences and "but also", if you would not spend so much time creating yourself straw men, you could have found it as such in several of my first replies. That is one more reason why I did not bother replying on the talk page. Dahn 16:22, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Can you stop at least for a while your aggressive language and gratuitious insults? Pointlessly? Endlessly? Irrelevant? Pep talk? Pals? Spend time creating straw men? Do you have evidence to justify your hazardous epithets and characterizations?
Briefly, you have claimed that "POV1. But also POV2" constitutes Original research by synthesis (to quote you: "That is the very definition of OR, no matter what sophistry you envelop it in."). You haven't proved I'm breaking this rule, you have required me to drop the "But also" (which I did to concede and to get the page moving) and recently you have put POV1 and POV2 in two different paragraphs. Requirements which still I find absurd. And what I find even more absurd you started a quarrel against me (personally, you're not even addressing to Jmabel) on Jmabel's talk page!!! You have Talk:Getae for all your concerns regarding my alleged "straw men". Please! Daizus 16:33, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Whatever. Dahn 16:36, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The step between an RFC (which is mainly for gathering facts and opinions) and arbitration is mediation, if both sides are willing. It can be either formal or informal. In my view, when both parties are willing to engage, and there isn't an issue of someone's conduct being so egregious that you'd like to see them banned from the article or from Wikipedia, it is a much better way to go. - Jmabel | Talk 17:15, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Ukraine/Russia

OK, I've reverted. Incidentally, I've marked Jacob Adler as British (as weel as Russian and American), because he is listed in the (British) Dictionary of National Biography.--Newport 22:17, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

I need your help

Dear Sir: I need your help. I have chanced across a Wikipedia article which strikes me as very "point of view": so much so that I feel it should be edited by a senior wikipedian. The article is "Raghavan N. Iyer", and the specific section in question is the "Theosophy" section. It was evidently written by a member of the Theosophical Society (the "New Age" spiritual movement founded by Madame Helena Petrovna Blavatsky in the later nineteenth century) and gives off the strong scent of propaganda. Here is a sample: "From 1975 to 1989 he was Editor-in-chief of Concord Grove Press and the golden journal Hermes - the primary vehicle for promulgating the alchemical teachings of the 1975 Cycle with its unconditional devotion to the spiritual regeneration of humanity and its unswerving conviction in the existence of Masters of Wisdom as ideals and facts." The bulk of the article as a whole is a rather long (perhaps I should add, "tiresome") catalogue of the Great Man's awards and achievements. Take a look - you may be wryly amused! Namaste, Writtenright 04:51, 1 February 2007 (UTC)Writtenright

Well, it's tagged as needing cleanup. And it's not as if it is a topic of enormous importance. The nature of the article is pretty clear to anyone who takes a look, so it is one step better than having nothing at all: think of it as a really long stub. Not a topic that really interests me much, so I'm not the one to work on cleaning it. - Jmabel | Talk 06:05, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Marat

Hi. I agree with your comments. Can you pls make a Marat (name) article and move it there? 203.213.97.55 11:08, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Vilem Flusser

Hi, done. Feel free to edit these changes. ≈Tulkolahten≈≈talk≈ 10:47, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Image tagging for Image:Poster_against_Paragraph_175.jpg

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Women's studies AfD

You've been a welcome voice of reason on Talk:Women's studies in the past; would you be interested in chiming in at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Women's studies? -- Rbellin|Talk 20:17, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Questions about licensing images produced by a corporation or educational organization

As I was reading through Wikipedia:Donating copyrighted materials, I thought of a question: What are the legal requirements upon the owner of the copyright to an image who wants to license their image under a specific license? I know that, at least on Wikimedia Foundation projects, individuals who own images need only tag the image description pages with a template indicating GFDL, PD, CC, etc. But for corporations or educational organizations, who actually owns the copyright (is it the individual researchers, programmers, etc. or is it the top level of the organization), what has to be done to license the image (in particular if there are more than one copyright holders), etc. I have been looking for answers on these questions and am thus far left unanswered. Your page, however, came closest to answering my question. Any further help would be greatly appreciated. --Iamunknown 23:47, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

I am not a lawyer, so do not consider this legal advice but…
This will vary. There are probably companies that have not even properly secured the rights on their own logos, which makes it particularly complicated. When you speak of "researchers, programmers, etc.": at a corporation, normally their work is done as work for hire, and the corporation owns all rights. An educational institution might make arrangements like that for materials that are intended to represent the institution, but normally won't claim any rights over the work of its students or faculty. So there isn't really any one general answer. It always comes down to cases. - Jmabel | Talk 23:56, 6 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply. I posted my specific conerns earlier this week at Wikipedia talk:Copyright problems#Concerns regarding images from BrainMaps.org. I would sincerely appreciate it if you could look at that specific post. I have given legal advice where I have no qualifications to give any, and am now at a loss of what to do next to rectify the problem. Again, thank you very much. --Iamunknown 00:16, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I looked, but I don't think I have anything to add. The discussion is really not all that clear, and I hesitate to step in, since I'd just be one more person with an uninformed opinion. - Jmabel | Talk 05:17, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. --Iamunknown 07:28, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

How to change a user name

Hi Jmabel, I am an administor on the Zazaki Wikipedia. I need to change a user name, but I don't really know how to do it? Can you help me or do you know how to change a user name? Best, --Daraheni 00:40, 7 February 2007 (UTC) diq:user:maviulke12

I think that requires a higher level access than admin. You can ask at WP:AN and I'm sure someone will know what needs to happen. - Jmabel | Talk 05:11, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Hit and run on Forests of the Iberian Peninsula

Greetings Jmabel, Thanx for your note. Your own reference to "hit and run" sums up nicely what I've been doing to the article - "meatball surgery" is another expression that springs to mind! I know that it'll probably get some people's backs up, but I reckon something on Wikipedia is better than nothing, and then it's up to the community at large to clean it up as much as possible. Just wish I could spend more time on it (and other things ...) but I've got a life of sorts to lead. If you have any suggestions for other "interesting" pages to have a hash at in the future, please drop me line. Good luck! --Technopat 15:34, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

BTW - I agree with you abt Catalunya, etc. but am just following the general style of the article. Not too sure abt the Wiki angle on this one, but how would it be if two (pretty consistent) editors set the tone for future contributions ...? Bit like the US/UK spelling thang.

Rgrds --Technopat 15:44, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

I've long since conceded that Wikipedia favors "Catalonia" as a spelling. At least they let go of "Majorca". - Jmabel | Talk 17:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Your edit of Xueta/translation

Please do not post non-English articles in the main-space of Wikipedia. You can post this in your sandbox and do the translation there. When you are finished then post it in the main-space. Thanks for your contributions. ww2censor 05:36, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I have responded at User talk:Ww2censor. - Jmabel | Talk 06:58, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
I've asked some of the Catalans I know here about the questions you had put up on the talk page. They all shuddered and asked what on earth was being translated :D But they did promise to get back to me about the terms. -Yupik 19:00, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

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Blackface

User:Skinmeister is at it again at Blackface -- with the same old crap. I don't have the patience. Given his track record with this piece, is there some way he can be enjoined from editing it in the future? deeceevoice 05:33, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Oscar Levant / Judy Garland

I have tried working in the qoute you suppled from Oscar Levant about Judy Garland. I tried to fit it into the section before Movie Star where her erratic behaviors started to manifest at MGM. May need future relocations to go into an entirely seperate new section (Qoutes About)? --Ozgod 22:34, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Request

Hi,

Can I ask you, please, your oppinion, whethere this erased text was a personal attack or not. If it seems to you it wasn't, I simply intend to restore it and end there. (I don't want to get into more discussion with the other user.) If it seems to you it was, then I will just forget about it (will not ask more people). I just want your honest oppinion, no strings attached to it (when you get time, it's not urgent).:Dc76 22:10, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't look to me like what you wrote should have been a problem; I'd say that the presence or absence of the remarks should be no big deal—after all, it isn't as if you said something that really advances the discussion—and that characterizing them as a "personal attack" amounted to an unnecessary put-down of you and your motivations. But I would suggest that you back off a step and think about whether this is worth arguing over. If you do, I'd suggest that simply restoring the remarks amounts to preferring a fight over a solution. On the other hand, starting a discussion on whether your remarks were within the pale—I certainly think they were—might be productive. I just can't think where would be the best place to have that discussion.
Anyway, you can feel free to quote me on this, but this is about as far into this as I'm willing to wade. - Jmabel | Talk 00:13, 16 February 2007 (UTC)
This is my final action regarding the dispute. Thank you very much for your advice to back off and for your time. :Dc76 13:36, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

See debate on the article Ashkenazi Intelligence

The article was proposed for deletion. I am the one who created the article. I did so not as some kind of fan of Gregory Cochran's work, but rather to get the material (which I find distasteful) off the Ashkenazi Jews page. I consider Cochran's theory to be an attempt to justify a genetic interpretation of race and IQ differences in general. Better material has been written about "Jewish Intelligence" and there is no agreement on the environmentalism versus genetics issue. I don't like to see the baby thrown out with the bath water. I would rather see a much better article written that would be balanced and inclusive. Barring that, I would like to see the Cochran material moved onto the page about Gregory Cochran himself, not back onto the Ashkenazi Jews page. Unfortunately, the Gregory Cochran page is one of those "admiration pages". Please see Ashkenazi intelligence and add your opinion if you wish. --Metzenberg 11:17, 19 February 2007 (UTC)


Somera Respuesta, a las candidaturas independientes en Nuevo León

Debido a que usted es de otro paìs es completamente comprensible que encuentre confusión en los términos "Diputados Independientes plurinominales". Esto debido a que México no es una democracia y ha inventado toda una seríe de términos retoricos.

En primer instancia, no estan permitidas o mejor dicho están prohibidas las candidaturas independientes, SOLO los partidos políticos pueden presentar candidatos. Violación clara a el derecho inherente de los ciudadanos. Por tanto no se puede ser Diputado Independiente proveniente de una Candidatura Independiente. Ésta solo se da, cuando un candidato de algún partido gana la representación y luego el ganador Renuncia al partido político. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 189.153.69.54 (talk • contribs) 20 February 2007.

Fara_Zahar

Hi Joe, I dare to ask you to look at a new article about a new Romanian band. I am sure you can make it much better.MihaiC 20:06, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Ma'ale Adummim

Since you seem to be quite recognized as an impartial authority here, I wondered if you would take the trouble (a real trouble indeed) to check out that page and the current controverse. If you don't, I'll understand you don't want to involve in such controversial articles. I just rather had the (wrong, it seems) idea that BBC articles were respected by both parties of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict... Thanks, Tazmaniacs 03:42, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I am also surprised at the censorship of my deposing a Wikiquette alert here in an attempt to resolve the issue by having exterior advice. Am I entitled to reintroduce it? Tazmaniacs 03:52, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Not if you falsely attribute actions and claims to me that I did not make. Jayjg (talk) 03:55, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I am not getting involved in this, beyond saying that BBC News is generally considered a reliable source. If they have been inaccurate, then the burden would be on someone else to provide contradictory references, and even so, in most cases, BBC's disagreement with those references would usually at least belong in a footnote. I say this without having looked at the particular article; you may feel free to quote me.- Jmabel | Talk 17:47, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Jmabel. Tazmaniacs 17:52, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Gran i General Consell

Let me know when you start translating this and I'll help out as much as I can. And just in case you run out of Catalan material to translate, I've filed a translation request at Wikipedia:Translation/Nubia about getting the Catalan article translated since it is so much more extensive. How much Catalan have you studied by the way? Quite impressive :) -Yupik 15:25, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. No formal study, just good Spanish, moderate Romanian, a few visits to Barcelona adding up to about 8-10 weeks, and forcing myself when I'm there to do my best with menus, museum wall texts, the occasional copy of Avui, etc., and then what I've been doing here on Wikipedia.
I'll probably get Gran i General Consell started in a week or two, if no one beats me to it. - Jmabel | Talk 18:44, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I put a link up about it on the translation page, so I would remember to get around to doing it and if I don't, then someone else might do it. -Yupik 15:56, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

Article on Jimmy Carter's Palestine Peace not Apartheid

I was hoping you might weigh in on a dispute between myself and NYScholar on the Palestine Peace not Apartheid discussion page. The dispute is summarized under discussion section 19, "Criticism vs. Carter's response." Up until now the discussion has been a back and forth between me and NYScholar, so it would probably help if a few other people weighed in. Your thoughts are appreciated. Gni 16:25, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

Spanish reader wanted

Hi there. I came across your name in the es-en translation category and was wondering if you could spare some time to help with a Spanish source. I need someone to read over this. Shouldn't take too long. If interested, the payment is one barnstar. Marskell 17:37, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

What exactly do you need read? This leads (indirectly) to a 40-odd-page booklet, which is more than I will take on for someone else's project. If you just need certain passages translated, I'll take it on. (If someone has cited it, presumably they've cited particular pages, right?) For starters, though, here's the information on the "card":
Title The holy city of Caral-Supe at the dawn of civilization in Peru
Author Shady Solís, Ruth Martha
Published Lima: UNMSM, Fondo Editorial, 1997
Description 42, [4] pages: illlustrate, maps; 22 cm.
Note Bibliography: p. 38-42
Theme Indigenous people of South America - Peru - Supe; Valle del Río (literally "River Valley", but presumably a placename) - Antiquities; Excavations (Archeology) - Peru - Supe; Valle del Río Supe, Valle del Río - Antiquities
- Jmabel | Talk 20:03, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Thx for reply. I was thinking of the four summary HTM links here. I see now that "Texto completo" links to a large PDF, which I'm not asking to be translated. To go over it:
  • The page in question is Norte Chico civilization. I'm currently involved in a naming argument with an anon who, I'm tentatively guessing, is a researcher, and possibly the relatively well-known researcher I'm citing (Ruth Shady). See the talk. The phrasing used by the anon mimics that used by Shady herself that I've seen in other web-links. (I say this just as background—I'm not asking that you post a comment.)
  • The anon presented the link (which I had seen previously but, being a mean English triumphalist, ignored) and I have decided it is important.
  • I don't want a full a translation, but just a read over and maybe a translation of a sentence or two. Can you tell me to what extent the summary links suggest a full-throttled civilization rather than a single archeological site? Does the source only mention Caral and the Supe Valley, or does it mention other sites and other valleys? How does it generally describe a larger civilization? Two or three translated sentences, summing this up, would be bang-on.
To prod you (if the offer of a barnstar hasn't already!), I think the page on Norte Chico is (in all immodesty) a total scoop. There's nothing as extensive on-line in English, and I want to get it right. Cheers, Marskell 20:48, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, am I asking too much? Marskell 19:31, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I'll get to it, but if you are asking me to make this priority number one ahead of things I am currently working on, then you should try elsewhere. - Jmabel | Talk 23:11, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
No worries. As you can do it. I'm constantly making wiki-promises I don't keep... Marskell 21:03, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I think the four links amount to the same thing as the PDF. But here is a quick rundown, tell me what you might need fleshed out:

The city of Caral-Supa at the Dawn of Civilization in Peru

Chapter 1 - located on the left bank of the Supe River on the north central coast of Peru, near present-day Caral. Lack of water today raises questions about how 17 large civic centers were maintained. Obviously conditions must have been different, possibly through river-based irrigation projects (also mentions some possibilities of subsoil irrigation).

There are some relicts of rich and varied past natural resources (you can probably work out exactly which plants are mentioned by using Google to get the Latin species names, then looking up the English. It also goes on about fish, etc. Basically it's trying to explain how a large population could have been fed.) There were also good routes of communication.

Groups antecedent to the inhabitants of Caral: disappearance of megafauna in the Holocene, etc. (pretty much the expected story for the region), neolithic tribes, etc. Interregional contacts and development of complex organization beginning 3000-2500 BCE. Increasing social inequality as productivity increased in Late Archaic or Preceramic Era. Establishment of complex societies, monumental constructions, appearance of civilization and the state. This is the period of Caral.

Other contemporary establishments: Áspero, on the littoral of the Supe valley; La Galgada in the basin of Chuquicara, a tributary of the Río Santa; Piruro, in Tantamayo, Huánuco; Kotosh in Huánuco; Huaricoto, in el Callejón de Huaylas; and el Paraíso, in the lower valley of the Río Chillón. These places interacted with one another, and they show a greater complexity than was originally supposed to pertain to the Late Archaic: this suggests that civilization in Peru is a millennium older than previously supposed. Of these, Caral was the most distinguished by extent and monumentality.

It then goes on to detail the discovery of Caral.

Chapter 2 - the holy city of Caral, city of the pyramids (6 large pyramids visible from valley floor). Description of setting. Aproximately 50 hectares, more than 32 architectonic complexes of various sizes and diverse functions: temples, residential sectors, public plazas, amphitheatre, storehouses, altars, streetss, etc. Layout somewhat described.

The work of the countryside: on the archaeological investigations (who did them, etc.)

"The temple of the amphitheatre": describes this complex in some detail

"The altar of holy fire": again, a physical description, "Kotosh religious tradition"

The small temple of the "Banqueta" (pavement? stool?)" another physical description.

Different areas of the north central region: residential sectors, "constructions of Huarango and Quincha", special deposit of offerings, "latrine", stepped platform: each described in some detail.

Human sacrifices: evidence of, associated with a pyramid

The large temple (Pyramid E), the auxiliary structure of the quadrangular pyramid: again, physical descriptions.

Chapter 3: The society of Caral-Supe, preliminary inferences

We can assign the city to the Late Archaic (3000-1500 BCE), beginning in the third millennium BCE and lasting several centuries (as we can see from superposed constructions). We can see changes over time in the design and conception of the city. It was the largest city in the area, monumental (they list some of the complexes of buildings).

The sacredness of the city: socioeconomic and political focus was the temples, which were periodically remodeled, major burnt offerings associated with the remodeling.

Aspects of the economy: mixed economy (agricultural, sea fishing, river fishing, molluscs. They cultivated the fertile riverbanks, and used river water to irrigate creating an abundance of flora and fauna.

The residents (the term that they use more or less means "parishioners"): they knew architecture, geometry, astronomy. There was an urban character. Similar enough to Aspero in the littoral of Supe to suggest specialists who made their services available to both places and intense communication between the two.

The formative period shows more extensive (vs. intensive) construction, more diversity, less focus on sacred character. Religious structures from that period seem to be more intimate, possibly familial. The society then became more hierarchical, with specific social roles (peasants, fishers, specialists in religion or as officials). Some buildings had walls to separate them off from the rest of the community (and there are some remarks about a symbol of power called the usnu).

Besides peoples primary jobs, they were periodically pressed into construction services.

17 urban centers in the valley would require more investment than could come from just the valley itself. Possibly the name of the valley, Supe (from Supay, "demon", "devil"), might reflect respect and fear of the onetime power.

Other populations of the time: (I'm skipping this unless you need it)

Significance of Caral in the Peruvian cultural process and international context: mostly seems a reiteration of what they've already said: that Peru has the oldest civilization in the Americas, antedating similar Mesoamerican civilizations by a millennium.

The abandonment of the sacred city: Before abandoning, the inhabitants buried all the buildings with dense layers of pebbles, cut stonees and boulders, as well as traditional offerings. Sand then naturally accumulated on top of that. In the first three centuries CE, some groups buried their dead in certain sectors of the old city, without knowing its history. Excavations have revealed its splendor; there is nothing else similar known from the era.

Chapter 4: Conclusions

  1. The Supe valley was one of the most important places where Peruvian civilization began.
  2. The city of Caral, from the Late Archaic (5000-3500 years ago), is one of the most developed places associated with this.
  3. It was an agricultural ecmonomy, complemented by fishing (and a couple of other things)
  4. High level of social organization using religion to manage the work force.
  5. Complex hierarchical social organization.
  6. Built, destroyed, built again in a ritual context.
  7. Drew on the resources of an area greater than the Supe valley
  8. (Summarizes the sphere of interaction)
  9. Seat of a society of great prestige in the Late Archaic.

- Jmabel 08:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Excellent, thank you! This is enough to form the generic sentences I may use it for and it seems obvious it's arguing for a "civilization", not merely a "culture" or one large center. I'll only ask for a specific translation of one thing, if you could: "17 urban centers in the valley would require more investment than could come from just the valley itself." (I'll post the Spanish in a note, if you point me to it.) Thanks again, Marskell 19:46, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
The relevant passage is:
El número de centros urbanos (17), identificado en el valle de Supe, y su magnitud, requirieron de una gran cantidad de mano de obra y de los excedentes, para su edificación, mantenimiento, remodelación y enterramiento. Si consideramos exclusivamente la capacidad productiva de este pequeño valle, esa inversión no habría podido ser realizada sin la participación de las comunidades de los valles vecinos.
That is:
The number of urban centers (17) identified in the Supe Valley, and their magnitude, requires a great quantity of surplus labor for their construction, maintenance, remodeling and burial. If we consider exclusively the productive capacity of this small valley, this investment could not have been realized without the participation of the communities of neighboring valleys.
By the way, the HTML page is in ISO-8851-9, which is a bit annoying: if you are doing searches, you need to change to this odd encoding. - Jmabel | Talk 20:03, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, I don't know ISO-8851-9 from a barn door. The anon who posted, and the Spanish sources generally, have a problem with presentation (there's much good stuff on a blog, for instance, but I can't use it.) If you read the page you'll see interesting hints of how Anglo researchers can maximize their language advantage; but that's a long story, and hopefully being able to cite what you've translated will be step against systemic bias. So, then:
The Rosetta Barnstar
Awarded to Jmabel for aiding in Spanish translation on Norte Chico civilization, and thus: avoiding English language bias on an obscure article, assisting a fellow user, and contributing to the exposure of important knowledge. Marskell 20:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)


Marskell 20:15, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Survey Invitation

Hi there, I am a research student from the National University of Singapore and I wish to invite you to do an online survey about Wikipedia. To compensate you for your time, I am offering a reward of USD$10, either to you or as a donation to the Wikimedia Foundation. For more information, please go to the research home page. Thank you. --WikiInquirer 03:22, 4 March 2007 (UTC)talk to me

Transwiki cleanup tag

Hi, you left a message in the Village Pump assistance section regarding the Transwiki cleanup template which had been left on an article you were working on and other articles. You stated there that you felt the template gave no information about what needed to be done regarding why it was there, how to get it removed, and so on. It's already been removed from your article, of course, but in case you're interested, I've changed the text of the template to try to make it more comprehensible and to explain to editors what to do regarding the template. See Template:TWCleanup. --Xyzzyplugh 06:56, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, tremendously clearer, especially the explicit exception for glossaries. - Jmabel | Talk 08:05, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Upload image

I would like to uoload an image: the symbol of the Italian Socialist Party that you can find here. Can you help me? --Checco 13:51, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

More, can you help me to find the same image in a better shape? The one I found (see above) is not clean. Here you can see the same symbol, but it is covered by a X. --Checco 14:02, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Finding the image, I'm afraid, is your affair (you might find something on the Italian Wikipedia), but as for uploading it:
  • First, download to a drive on your own computer.
  • Do any cleanup you need to do on your own machine, and produce either a PNG file or a JPEG.
  • Then go to Special:Upload (for the English Wikipedia) or Commons:Special:Upload (for Commons, but only for images that are public-domain or free-licensed) and follow the directions there to upload from your own machine. - Jmabel | Talk 18:53, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

132.216.104.200

...was actually Constantzeanu. NorbertArthur's IPs always start with "66.36". Khoikhoi 02:36, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Requested move

First off, sorry to hear about your hiatus from Wikipedia, because you're great editor from what I've seen. I'm on a less voluntary wikibreak myself, but one thing I have done recently is create User:Draeco/Fed, a page that I would like to have moved into the main namespace, thus creating an article for the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies. This article move/creation would in actuality be a part of the ongoing effort to split the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement article, a need that was identified when the Movement article was nominated for FA status here. A separate ICRC article has already been created in a similar manner, as you know, but unlike that earlier split, this one is basically just a reorganization of the Federation material now found in the Movement article. Of course there will be a big overhaul of the Movement article once this second (and final) split is done.

I RM-ed a week ago and placed notices on related pages. The move discussion is at User talk:Draeco/Fed. Nobody has commented at all, and the only dissenter to the last move (Uwe) seems to be fine with the move this time. Since there's already a Federation article (just a redirect), could you wave your admin wand and move the page for me? Thanks, and don't leave. - Draeco 18:05, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Done. - Jmabel | Talk 18:17, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks - Draeco 18:19, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
One more thing, not to be a pest, but could you move the talk page as well so that the RM discussion stays with the article? Thanks. - Draeco 18:21, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Since you presumably don't want to lose the article's old talk page, you are going to have to either do a cut-and-paste merge, or simply link from the article talk page to the discussion in your user space. (You can also transclude: {{User talk:Draeco/Fed}} will include the one page in the other). - Jmabel | Talk 18:28, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

DYK

Updated DYK query On 8 March 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Smokey Fontaine, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

--Carabinieri 19:00, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Catalan portal

I've found this, by chance. Maybe you want to take a look at it... Catalan-speaking Portal. Salut! --Joan sense nick 00:19, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius

Hi, speed of editing maybe to blame in not spotting that this was a Short Story, normally short stories are published within another publication and thus a cover illustration is not relevant, see {{infobox short story}}. However if this is the first publication "stand alone" as a book then the {{infobox Book}} template could be relevant and the 1st edition in that form might be worth using, with full reference to the earlier publication. Always the First Edition publication has priority as it is its first appearance to the wider world and the event of literary significance. Does that help at all. :: Kevinalewis : (Talk Page)/(Desk) 09:01, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

DYK

Updated DYK query On 9 March 2007, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Mad Forest, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

--ALoan (Talk) 11:51, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

RfC for Valencian Country.

Hi! In this respective talk page there are a large discussion about most proper name usage in English for Valencian Country. As a third party opinion, would you mind to help me to put there a RfC? You may to create a section for the RfC on the bottom of the article talk page with a brief, neutral statement of the issue. If you have interest and time for it, I would appreciate your efforts. --Joanot Martorell ✉ 22:06, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

User:Pancasila (personal attacks)

Pancasila (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log)'s block has expired and now he/she is continuing to make the same personal attacks against User:John Hyams.[1] As you were the administrator who blocked Pancasila to begin with, and since my report at WP:ANI#User:Pancasila (personal attacks) is languishing, I thought I'd bring this to your attention. —Psychonaut 17:40, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Bring it to WP:AN/I. There is no particular need for this to be done by the same admin who blocked him/her last time. In fact, it is best if someone else does it so it doesn't get personal. - Jmabel | Talk 19:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
I did post it on WP:ANI, as I mentioned. It scrolled off the page without any administrators replying or taking action. —Psychonaut 20:08, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Moshinsky

Yeh, that falls under the "WTF" category :) Speaking of categories, he's in the "Category:Prince of Asturias Award winners", which was part of WP:SPAIN, so the bot put the banner there. In hindsight, that cat shouldn't have been automated. Please remove the banner if he doesn't belong. Thanks :) -- SatyrTN (talk | contribs) 22:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

That explains it: roughly like sticking all Nobelists in a project on Sweden... - Jmabel | Talk 03:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Are Fascism and Nazism forms of Socialism?

Sorry to be a pest, but would you consider at least looking at this vote? Thanks. -Cb

Please take part in the current vote to rename the Nazism entry to National Socialism. See: Talk:Nazism#Requested_move. This is part of a longstanding dispute that goes back at least to 2004, in which some editors argue that Fascism and/or Nazism are merely a variety of Socialism. This is the view of a small number of libertarian/Free Market authors, and an even smaller subset of authors on the left. I argue that a majority of scholars reject this formulation, but this is being challenged on a number of pages. In addition, several editors have started redirecting [[National Socialism and National socialism away from National Socialism (Disambiguation) to Nazism, which they are attempting to rename National Socialism, as part of this larger campaign to suggest Nazism is Socialism. If you are interested in the outcome of this vote and the larger discussion, please visit: Talk:Nazism#Requested_move. Thanks.--Cberlet 17:10, 11 March 2007 (UTC)==Are Fascism and Nazism forms of Socialism?==

Could you?

Hi, Jmabel. As an admin, could you please remind User:Icar of why erasing and manipulating source-based information ([2], [3], [4], [5]) is considered vandalism? He won't take it from me, and instead of following wikipedia guidelines relies on this extortion tactic ([6], [7]). Dahn 10:16, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Dahn 23:43, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Critical works

Hi Jmabel,

I have a question on the sense of the expression "critical works". When you say "Critical works on X", does it mean "critical works on X's scholarly works", or "all scholarly books on X"? Or is there a nuance I still miss?

Thanks, Dpotop 15:08, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

It's ambiguous, but it would tend toward the broader meaning. "Literary criticism" for example is criticism of writing, mainly of fiction. But adding to the problem, in some contexts "critical" means only things that disagree with the original, and in others it means all commentary, favorable or otherwise. - Jmabel | Talk 19:13, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

User:HIZKIAH

Is it true? I mean, the fact that he's a Bonaparte clone, as Khoikhoi stated? Is this a checkuser diagnostic or something? I'm asking this because I did a little background check (last 500 edits) and the guy seemed mostly interested in Israel. Not like the guy I (we) knew once. Dpotop 20:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I have no particular knowledge on this: I have no access to checkuser. On the one hand, editing from the same place doesn't clinch it if patterns are dissimilar, but on the other hand I've always been convinced that there was more to Bonaparte than he was choosing to show, so nothing would really surprise me on that front. Sorry I don't really have anything to add. - Jmabel | Talk 00:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Joshua Bolten's Jewishness, care to comment?

Hi Joe, long time no speak. Would you care to take a look at the discussion at Talk:Joshua Bolten#Removal of category as I know you have experience with these type of issues. Take care, IZAK 05:21, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't really have much to say on this, other than that I think ethnicity is usually worth a mention for an article anyone who is not of the dominant ethnicity of their country (i.e. there is no need to mention that a Parisian is ethnically French). - Jmabel | Talk 06:29, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Mozambican War of Independence

Hey Joe. Here's an invitation to take a look at this article we're tweaking for featured article status. It's one of those articles that hopefully addresses your systemic bias concerns back in 2004. We're nearly there on this article I think! So take a look if it catches your fancy.-- Zleitzen(talk) 14:09, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I did what I believe was a fairly good copy edit. I also raised some issues both on the talk page and in HTML comments in line. - Jmabel | Talk 17:51, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Joe. I've been copyediting it myself for the last few days, but it is amazing what you miss when you only have one pair of eyes. Good work.-- Zleitzen(talk) 20:08, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Hey there Jmabel, thanks for your comments on the talk pages! I have tried to address them all (admitedly for one or two of them other users may have to help me out) but I would appreciate if you could give it another once over so I can see if I'm on the right lines. Oh, and incidentally, my terrifically slow browser means that I'm finding it a little difficult to find your in-article-hidden-comments, so I haven't addressed any issues raised by these alone as of yet. Nevertheless, please keep bringing up your observations/ideas! Thanks, SGGH 20:37, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Moishe Finkel

Hello JMabel

You may have realized that Faith Jones is the same as Nomi Jones--I tend to use my Yiddish name for Yiddish-related projects (such as adding Yiddish content to Wikipedia). So I can tell you exactly what the Forward article refers to. The main information I found in English was in a book about Paul Muni called "Actor" (by Jerome Lawrence). I later realized that the pages that deal with the scandal are a translation/summary of the way it is presented in Boris Thomashefsky's autobiography--just about the least reliable source you could think of. As I was digging I found good information in the "Leksikon fun Yidishn Teater", but it was a bit circumspect and minimizes the affair Emma was having with Levinson and Finkel's extraordinary cruelty. So it was really the contemporaneous news sources that provided the best framework.

I haven't seen it but apparently the story is retold in a new book on Yiddish theatre, "Stardust Lost" by Stefan Kanfer. But I'm told this author doesn't read Yiddish and his account probably relies on the Muni book which in turn relied on the Thomashefsky book.

The information in the earlier version of the Finkel article--that Finkel killed himself in despair over the decline of the old fashioned theater he produced--is the story the English-language version of the Adler memoir implies though it doesn't state it categorically. That must have been added by Lulla Rosenfeld. This is just one of many examples of the way Yiddish culture was cleaned up for an English-speaking audience. You really need to go to the sources for a lot of this stuff.Nomi Jones 19:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Nope, I didn't even give thought to the possibility that was yourself. And, yes, I would consider Boris Thomashefsky's autobiography to be unreliable for anything other than the preferred spelling of his name! Adler's is enough of a minefield, but at least in his case it tends to be omissions rather than outright lies. And while Lulla Rosenfeld is clearly more of a plus than a minus, yes, she cleans some things up, and also, while a generally good scholar, I find her lousy with dates: I've caught her out in several errors on those.
I unfortunately don't read Yiddish. Never learned the Hebrew alphabet, I'm ashamed to say. I can deal decently with transliterated Yiddish but, yes, the stuff I've written in Wikipedia about Yiddish theater is pretty much entirely from English, Romanian, and German language sources. - Jmabel | Talk 20:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Catalan people

I think that editor was referring to Asturian People from the region of Asturias in Spain, not Austrians.--Burgas00 22:46, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

DYK

Updated DYK query On 15 March 2007, Did you know? was updated with facts from the articles Bernie Whitebear, Luana Reyes and Lawney Reyes, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the "Did you know?" talk page.

--ALoan (Talk) 14:43, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Fascism and Nazism as representative forms of socialism

I am sorry to bother you again, but I really need some help. There is an ongoing campaign by a few editors to portray Fascism and Nazism as representative forms of socialism. As part of this effort (a debate that stretches back to 2004), there are a tiny handful of editors who revert and redirect National Socialism to Nazism. I believe a majority of editors support redirecting National Socialism to National Socialism (disambiguation). I realize we just had a poll on the Nazism page where I thought this issue was settled, but apparently the struggle is not over. Please consider voting in the new poll, or adding a comment at: Talk:Nazism#Survey:_redirecting_National_Socialism. Also consider notifying other editors with an interest in this matter. I am doing the best I can, but need assistance. Thanks.--Cberlet 17:09, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Isn't "Nazi" short for the German words for "National Socialist"? Wahkeenah 17:20, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
    • That's its etymology. And Justicialismo in Argentina comes from justicio and socialismo, but it hardly shows that Peronism was either socialist or just. Similarly, Zhirinovsky's "Liberal Democratic Party" in Russia is neither liberal nor democratic. - Jmabel | Talk 17:46, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
      • I see the problem. "National Socialist" has many usages, and certain users are trying to equate them all to Nazism, either out of ignorance or POV-pushing, or both. Another parallel is the DDR, which was obviously D but was certainly not very D and not much of an R. Wahkeenah 18:12, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Could you have a look at these articles?

Could you have a look at these articles and their talk? --Metzenberg 03:10, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

I feel the articles are extremely well sourced and balanced. I'd like somebody else to remove the tags. Please look at my last versions, because I have run up against somebody from the evolution/creation universe who wants to troll around for lehakholis (Aramaic word, you might be able to guess what it means). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Metzenberg (talk • contribs) 19 March 2007.


I really need your help here. ZayZayEM is engaging in troll-like behavior, such as making edits on the very materials I am editing, removing materials immediately after I add them, and so forth. It is a harassment pattern that extends across multiple articles. The main articles involved are:
* Jewish reactions to intelligent design
* Jewish opposition to evolution
* Natan Slifkin
It is bizarre behavior, because I can see no reason why he is even interested in this material. As you and I both know, it is material you have to really understand well to edit. Over the last week, I have substantially rearranged all the materials on Judaism and evolution in an effort to clean up the main Judaism and Evolution page first of all, so that it can be turned into a page that is not dominated by issues (such as the Slifkin affair) that would have undue weight. ZayZayEM has simply made it impossible for me to work. He has followed me from one article to another, demanding arbitrary changes. many of his edits, and his changes, show that he knows very little about the subject, which as you and I both know, is quite abstruse at times. --Metzenberg 16:14, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree that you need help here, but I disagree that you need my help. I suggested several relevant WikiProjects, none of which had been approached about the matter; you could also approach individuals who are associated with those projects; you could ask for informal mediation (which will take a few weeks to arrive, but I really don't see any urgency to this; it's OK for us to have a bad article for a few weeks). I've been trying to avoid being heavily pulled into more and more controversies in areas where I have only a marginal interest, since I'm really not giving Wikipedia the time I used to. I made my remarks on the talk pages of the two articles you initially brought to my attention, but I'm not willing to wade in here up to my neck. - Jmabel | Talk 17:29, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I am going to ask for mediation. All I need is one other wikipedia user to agree that there needs to be mediation. I think an appropriate thing to ask for in mediation is simply to ask that this person not edit the pages that have to do with Judaism and evolution, including the Natan Slifkin page. In other words, I would like a very limited ban. He can go on working on the other 1.695 million wikipedia pages to his hearts content. My question to him, "where's the kosher kangaroo meat?" is my way of saying, what the heck are you doing putting a stumbling block in front of someone who actually does know the Jewish material about an American political issue well, and wants to edit it. He is 21 years old. You and I are both reasonable men in early middle age, from what I gather. Will you be the one that joins me in the request for mediation? --Metzenberg 18:04, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Lupescu

The footnotes, especially the second one, do seem problematic. I'll see if I can turn up something more definite. Meanwhile, these citations may or may not be of use to us (note her birthdate kept changing):

The “Lupescu Issue” Echoes in the Realm of King Carol
The New York Times, May 6, 1934, p. XX5
“Her age is between 35 and 40.”

Attacks Are Renewed on Red-Haired Magda
The Washington Post, December 25, 1934, p. 3
“His 36-year-old friend”

Carol Marries Lupescu, Ill
The Washington Post, July 6, 1947 p. M1
“Magda, who is 50”

Slight Gain Shown by Magda Lupescu
The New York Times, July 8, 1947, p. 12
“On the [marriage] petition Mme. Lupescu gave her year of birth as 1902”

Magda Lupescu, Woman behind Rumania’s Throne, Is Dead at 81
The New York Times, June 30, 1977, p. 73

Magda Lupescu Dies at 81; Mistress, Wife of Former King of Romania
The Washington Post, July 1, 1977, p. C10 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Biruitorul (talk • contribs) 16:27, 21 March 2007 (UTC).

Looks good to me. Biruitorul 18:29, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Let's hope so. I also changed the "no author has explained" wording to a slightly vaguer variant, at least until we find a clearer explanation of the matter. Biruitorul 20:28, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

I have filed a request for arbitration

You are allowed to make a statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#Metzenberg-ZayZayEM

Please review the record and feel free to comment. --Metzenberg 16:27, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

I have also entered proposal for a compromise on Talk:Jewish reactions to intelligent design. If my proposal is accepted by User:ZayZayEM and User:Guettarda I will withdraw this request for arbitration, and we can consider this resolved. I have informed them. --Metzenberg 01:58, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Hello

Just wondering how you were doing this year. I know you've been less active in Wikipedia lately. --Lukobe 04:53, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Sure--what's your schedule like? --Lukobe 06:15, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Hey, sorry I didn't return your call--that's my home number and I've only been there for a few hours in the last 48. Is sometime this weekend good for you? --Lukobe 22:16, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Is it content or conduct

> I think this is more an issue of content than conduct.

It is impossible for me to work on this with ZayZayEM's style of editing by edit war. Will you have a look at Judaism and evolution, where I am working now? --Metzenberg 15:42, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

If this is a conduct issue, then please take this to WP:AN/I rather than to me. I've already said that I don't want to go deeply into this, and there are over 1000 other administrators, many of them far more actively in the role than I am these days. - Jmabel | Talk 17:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC)