Talk:Jim Steinman

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	Musical Theatre Portal Jim Steinman is part of WikiProject Musical Theatre, organized to improve and complete musical theatre articles and coverage on Wikipedia. You can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
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WikiProject Musical Theatre tasks: Help out with one of the WikiProject Musical Theatre tasks below. You may add your name to the Participants list to the right. edit this Open Tasks template Collaborate and work on the Collaboration of the Month Articles needing a content fork Mainly, these are articles on films and either their source or subsequent musicals. There are a couple where the musical needs to be "forked" from the source material. Feel free to add or remove as necessary. Important: If you split an article, please make sure that you move all the relevant links from the first article to the new one. To find which links to move, click on "What links here" at the old article and look through the list to see which links should be pointed to the film related link (for example, articles on actors in the film). Then, click on those links and update them to point to the film article. Thanks! Don't Play Us Cheap Roberta How to Succeed in Business Without Really Trying I Married an Angel Lady in the Dark The Band Wagon - musical adaptation will to be forked after it opens in April.

To-do list for Jim Steinman:

edit · history · watch · refresh

Here are some tasks you can do: Cleanup: rewrite the article to make it sound less like a fan site. There is currently too much focus on the work, rather than Steinman himself. The article needs to be thoroughly cited, using inline citations. NPOV: The legal dispute with Meat Loaf must only contain sourced facts. There are a small group of obsessives, probably from a certain forum, intent on adding unsourced POV.

Contents 1 Expand article? 2 Article name. Page move? 3 Re: Publicity Still 4 Article Expansion 5 Fair use rationale for Image:FasterThanTheSpeedNight.jpg 6 Fair use rationale for Image:MeatLoafDeadRinger.jpg 7 Recent Changes 8 more 9 inclusion of projects 10 comment 10.1 Photo of Steinman 11 next step 12 WikiProject class rating

[edit] Expand article?

I think this article needs to be expanded, and improved to a professional status. I'd like to see it on the main page someday. I was thinking that it should mention more about his World Guiness Record with Meat Loaf on Bat Out of Hell, and a couple of pictures on Jim would be cool to. I'm sure his official site would allow us to use some if {fairused}, or wouldn't it? Anyway, give me suggestions. Call me biased, but I think that more people should be aware of this awesome composer/lyricist. EliasAlucard|Talk 18:24, 13 Jun, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Article name. Page move?

To avoid the millions of redirects, can the title of this article not be Jim Steinman? The Richard Wagner is not called 'Wilhelm Richard Wagner'. A page move would make sense as this is the name that he is known by (the opening paragraph would still, of course, include his full name). The JPS 16:06, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Does anyone else think Steinman wrote his own entry (who else would have access to that publicity still?). Nonetheless, he's clearly a genius. I just doubt the utility of being a genius.

Who cares if Mr.Steinman wrote his own page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrsstump23 (talk • contribs) 8:18, 10 April 2007

[edit] Re: Publicity Still

I believe that image came from Jim's "BAD FOR GOOD" album art.

That is where I know it from - Antmusic 21:47, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Maybe JD can authorize some more photos? 204.120.207.2 21:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article Expansion

I like your idea of expanding the article on Jim Steinman. Personally, I am a big fan of Jim Steinman and Meat Loaf (Meat Loaf is how I heard of Jim Steinman). I just want to add my support for expanding the article by saying I would love to have much more information on Jim Steinman — and his outstanding records as well!! I agree, Steinman truly is a musical genious and (call me stupid if you want) the whole world should be familiar with him and his amazing works!

~ djh2400 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Djh2400 (talk • contribs) 00:48, 31 May 2006

I agree, good job

~ Commander vlad

As long as we remember to keep a neutral point of view. We shouldn't really duplicate much of what's in the other articles: which means keeping it relevant to Steinman, rather than his work (if his work is discussed in a separate artilce). There has been some really bad additions to this article recently. The priority at the moment is to add references (I've started doing that). It's not about expanding the article at the moment, it's about making it better.The JPS^{talk to me} 21:28, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

I think this article still reads like a fan site, and it's really one of the poorest articles on Wikipedia. I keep trying to rectify the problems, but anons come along and add fancruft stuff... It's quite limited in view: what about Def Leppeard, etc.? The JPS^{talk to me} 11:45, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

There's Floodland by The Sisters of Mercy, too. -- Beardo 14:16, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the album covers should go. The JPS^{talk to me} 17:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:FasterThanTheSpeedNight.jpg

Image:FasterThanTheSpeedNight.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 07:49, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Add rationale, "This image is being used to illustrate the audio work Faster Than the Speed of Night by Bonnie Tyler, therefore it qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law." Antmusic 18:02, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:MeatLoafDeadRinger.jpg

Image:MeatLoafDeadRinger.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 22:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Added Rationale: "This image is being used to illustrate the audio work Dead Ringer by Meat Loaf, therefore it qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law." Antmusic 18:03, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Changes

OK, so I just did a fairly drastic overhaul of the article, and if anybody has comments about those changes I'd be interested to read them.

My objectives for the recent changes were the following: - I wanted to make the article have as much emphasis on Steinman's career as a producer as on his career as a writer. I think a lot of the fans who put this together focus pretty much exclusively on his writing, but he's arguably been more productive and in-demand as a producer than as a writer.

- I wanted to make the article such that all his productions are listed, and the ones that were most successful got a little more space but not a whole lot more. I didn't want this article to play favorites, where some projects get an essay and others no mention at all. I wanted this article to be useful to the collector, it should provide the collector with the information he needs to actually find Steinman's work, because it has been scattered about on so many different projects here and there.

- I wanted to take out promotional-sounding stuff. I wanted to take out some of the dubious mythology and apocryphal legends that fans tell each other about this guy. I wanted it to be fact-first. Also assumptions about the motives behind various decisions, that is something I wanted to take out.

- I'm actually not sure if the aborted past projects section belongs there, but somebody on this page mentioned Def Leppard, and having a section like that is the only way to work Def Leppard in there. There are probably a lot of aborted projects we don't know about, or that fans are mistaken about, so that section could easily get out of hand if it were to grow

- I tried to think of things about the man and not the work, but the problem is that very little is known about him outside of his work. The ideas out there among fans about him are often fairly wild stories that could easily be false. As far as I can tell, he's a very private man.

- I wanted a clear separation between Tanz der Vampire and Dance of the Vampires, because people who saw both, and Steinman himself, almost invariably think of those as two separate projects

- I strongly considered deleting all content about Meat Loaf's Bat 3 album. If this article were to include every project where somebody else made a cover of some sort of Steinman's work, I'd have to add literally hundreds of projects that aren't in here right now. I only left it in because of the legal battle, which did receive coverage in the press.

[edit] more

I'm still thinking about how this article could be improved. Aside, obviously, from the complete lack of citations. That's the big thing on wikipedia that this article doesn't have. I'm suspecting it's too long. If it needs to get shorter, I'm thinking it would be better to say less about each project than to reduce the number of projects mentioned. Excluding projects presents an inherent POV issue, because people will vary as to which projects they think are the most important. I have my own strong opinions as to which are the most important, but I KNOW those opinions are very different from those of some others who've listened to Steinman's work just as much. I think the only solution is to list every Steinman production, and state no opinions as to which is most notable or best. I put my opinion as to which Steinman works are "best known" in the second paragraph of the article, and I intentionally kept that separate from the listings of the projects, because the listings shouldn't take any POV as to which are important and which aren't. Beyond, obviously, reporting facts about how successful they were.

[edit] inclusion of projects

I wanted to include any recording that is: - the first project to include a particular melody or lyric of Steinman's - produced by Steinman

I did not want to mention: - covers that Steinman didn't produce of already released Steinman songs - television covers, such as when his songs get performed on American Idol - advertisements using a recording of Steinman's music that has already been released - movies that have, on the soundtrack, a recording that has already been released of a Steinman song

If I were to include anything in the latter group, I think this article would explode to a ridiculous length, and mention tons of stuff that nobody cares about. It would become harder to find the information that somebody interested in learning about Steinman's work would want.

[edit] comment

As I see it, some of the problems this page used to have stemmed from repeating things that definitely can be cited, but cannot be proven. The thing about Steinman is, there are lots of magazine articles and interviews about him that repeat all kinds of wild anecdotes, exaggerations, and bizarre speculations. A lot of those just got repeated onto this page, as if the journalist of a rock&roll magazine is "official", and as if every amusing anecdote from an interview with Steinman is true just because he said it. In a way, this page was probably more "citable" before I got my hands on it, in the sense that you could have put at the bottom a good long list of interviews and articles that say the same ridiculous things this article used to say. For example this article used to say that Steinman's college student theater project was hailed by critics as a masterpiece. There seriously is an article you could cite that says this, written by somebody who may not have even been there for the show. (In fact, some of the articles about what the 1969 Dream Engine show was like seriously were written by people who, I have since learned, never attended the show). I deleted that because I was thinking, why would there be "critics" for a student production? The student productions I've been to rarely had critics or reviews.

With Steinman, any efforts to do a real Steinman biography are plagued by all the myths and legends about Jim Steinman that are codified in print, including interviews with him. It is my personal belief that Jim Steinman sometimes has been guilty of exaggeration and telling anecdotes that are amusing but not exactly accurate.

This current article, as it stands right now, is mostly the result of a combination of my skepticism, and reading about Steinman through materials that have circulated among fans. I've tried to leave in things that: - could conceivably be proven true if they absolutely had to be - I have heard with my own ears or seen with my own eyes - can be read on an official credits list for some musical work - don't seem like they could have been said for the purpose of "entertainment" or "amusement" or "astonishment" or "promotion" - are not contradicted by other information

So, pretty much, I've sacrificed "citability" in favor of some of the other qualities desired on wikipedia.

There are some sections on here that used to read like a fan site written by a 13 year old. I honestly don't believe the people who inserted that content were trying to make it that way. I think they were just trying to incorporate what is said in the only written materials available about Steinman.

Another comment I want to make. On the paragraph about his legal battle with Meat Loaf, the many short articles published by rock&roll journalists said a lot of contradictory things. I was interested in the case back then, and I obtained the court documents for the case (which are not hard to get) and read them (some of them are not very long) and what I've written there is my own very brief summary, in my own words, of what they say. Some of the rock&roll journalists who wrote about the case obviously did not read those documents, yet those journalists are, in a way, citable and I am not. So you see, building a wikipedia article out of "citable" statements can have both advantages and disadvantages.

Anyhow that is kind of a long comment but it should give some insight as to why I felt the need to, by myself, so completely overhaul an article that already had input from so many people.

Thanks for your work. We've spoken on your talk page, but best continue it here for transparency. I agree with much of what you're said. Some of the writing was quite poor, but I put that down to non-native speakers (there was often repetition of "Jim Steinman", rather than Steinman in subsequent references). There are two issues:

• Citing reliable sources is essential. We can get around the hyperbole by using phrases such as "In an 19xx interview, he said that..." This statement would be accurate without us claiming whatever claim to be so. Meat Loaf usually favours an entertaining interview in the expense of an accurate one.) If Steinman has claimed something in a reliable source, then that's fine. It is not up to us to decide what to ignore/what is exaggeration. In short, it is absolutely essential, per WP:BLP, that we have citations.

  Of course, reliable sources can be wrong, but we need other reliable sources to prove that! As I say, careful phrasing will help. Meat Loaf's autobiography can be referenced: not a book I suspect to be completely accurate, but as mere Wikipedia editors it is simply not our role to action that assumption. "Meat Loaf claims that...", however, would be completely accurate.

• The structure seems very fragmented, and is as I've seen some fansites. I think we should adopt a more chronological stance. It's supposed to be a biography of him, not his work (although his work will necessarily play a major component). Paul McCartney is a good example here. The JPS^{talk to me} 10:21, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I hear ya. Careful phrasing can help navigate these dilemmas. Still learning wikipedia, so of course I appreciate your input.

I'm going to go to sleep now, but in the next few days I want to decide which types of awards are notable enough to mention in this page. I did put in a note about the "Falling Into You" album winning two Grammy awards, because winning a Grammy is always a big enough deal to list. But there are lots of other, less major awards that Steinman productions have won. I'm not sure if a Juno Award (like a Canadian grammy) is major enough to list in here. But is it nationally biased to list the Grammy's but not the Juno's? There are numerous other types of awards where I'm not sure if they're major enough or not. I decided not to list any award nominations, because some people rack up a lot of those. Nomination = did not win. Only winning the award do I want to list.

Anyhow thanks.

I will also contemplate deleting the album covers. Album covers are something that I think should be there for every album or for none of them. I don't want this page to play favorites. And I don't feel like finding 40 album cover photos. Then again, would a page with almost no pictures be less appealing? I will think about this some more.

Agree. In the past the article had the entire right hand side full of alum covers, and it looked tacky. It could be argued that the first two Bats are notable, but you're right about playing favourites.

As for awards, yeah, keep the most notable on this page, and the rest can go in the specific article for whatever album. The JPS^{talk to me} 11:28, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Also, we shouldn't actually have that image of him at the top because it's a non-free image of someone who is still alive (meaning a free alternative can be created). I wonder if one of the fans from the OTT/Dream Engine shows could be persuaded to release one of their photos under a free license? The JPS^{talk to me} 11:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I've been in contact with one such fan in the past and I could ask him about using one of his photos. I think it's best to have a recent photo. I'll find a good photo from his website and ask him about it.

[edit] Photo of Steinman

I just want to make a note here that I've sent the free license email thing to the permissions-en AT wikimedia DOT org email address. It's for this picture:

http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j265/cdb_07/wikistein.jpg

It was taken in June of 2005 in Uncasville, CT at the Mohegan Sun casino. Steinman was there for a show of his work called Over The Top: The Songs of Jim Steinman, and a concert spectator took the photo when Steinman was giving autographs.

I'll have to figure out how to get it onto the Steinman page.

Sorted! Would the photographer like to be named? The JPS^{talk to me} 09:09, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

I just asked him that and he says he would. His name is David Akerman.

[edit] next step

OK, the article's developed a lot. This is what I reckon we need:

• a reliable source for facts relating to his person.
• once everything has a source, we can send the article to peer review to get outsider's opinions.
• One we've addressed any concerns after that we can elect it for good article status, which would identify it as one of the higher quality articles (approx. 1 in 711 articles are 'good'). The JPS^{talk to me} 09:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 17:12, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

I assessed the article as "start". Even though the article has a lot of good content in it, it is badly under-referenced and needs clean-up. Once the referencing is done, it should be easy to bring it up to B-class. -- Ssilvers (talk) 03:52, 26 March 2008 (UTC)