Talk:Jim Morrison/Archive 1

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Several Questionable Entries

There doesn't seem to be a great amount of citation going on with this article. I know for a fact that many of the things that were purportedly said by various individuals in this article were taken directly from the lines in Olver Stone's "The Doors" movie, and would be contradicted with statements made by the rest of the band in interviews and documentaries. I wouldn't be surprised if half of this article needed to be modified to correct inaccuracies like that. Do I want to do it? Nope. But if anyone else cares enough, I'll be happy to let you know there's plenty of work to be done.

Irish Ancestry?

What is the source for this? His biographies say he's Scottish. His mother's last name is Clark. I believe that's English.Wll the name Morrison is the gealic approximation of 'Moors Son'.We have to remember that during Roman occupation Celts were sent to Morroco and the Moors/Moorish were sent to Ireland,so Jim was probably from Irish descent

are you implying that the romans occupied ireland? and clark is an irish name, if not the biography im reading now seems to think differently

Marital Miscellaneous

See the discussion below under the heading "Morrison's Wife at Common Law." Briefly: The California probate court found that Morrison and Courson contracted a common law marriage under Colorado law. That means the he *was* married - if not as a fact in practice, at least as a fact in law. It is irrelevant that Morrison and Courson did not perform the formalities to contract a statutory marriage. The whole point of common law marriage is that it is a legally binding marriage which is NOT formally contracted by any one act, but by a coincidence of numerous acts (such as Morrison referring to Courson's parents as his in-laws, which counts as the two of them holding themselves out to the public as husband and wife).

Today, common law marriages can only be contracted in Scotland, the District of Columbia, and eleven U.S. States -- one of which is Colorado. California has not permitted marriages to be contracted as at common law since 1896, but the California Family Code explicitly provides that all marriages are valid in the state if they are validly contracted according to the law of the place of celebration. All U.S. states are the same on that point. As long as you were legally married according to the laws of the place where you got married, your marriage is legally valid in any U.S. state -- and that includes common law marriages.

There has been some discussion of Morrison's marital status and apparently some disagreement, as well. The last person changed the intro to indicate that Morrison had a "spouse." I think it's misleading to leave it at that because Morrison never formally got married. His relationship was recognized as being a common-law marriage by the California probate courts two years after his death, based on a number of factors, including his actions while in Colorado with Courson. I've added the phrase "common-law" to the intro and hope it resolves some people's concerns about accuracy.

24.7.5.47 08 March 2006

Sheesh, some people sure get bent out of shape at the mention of Pamela Courson and the California probate court's recognition of her status as his common-law wife. Although some info about Courson has been in the intro paragraph for quite some time, it is probably better placed in the section dealing with Morrison's personal life. I have added a mention of Morrison's untimely death to the intro in its place. I doubt that this will please some fanatics but it seems to be a reasonable enough arrangement. Ande B. 10:31, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

More Miscellaneous

... would be another contender for bacchanalia, but I've never been so I'll leave it to someone who can write about it with more confidence. Koyaanis Qatsi 18:54 Jul 22, 2002 (PDT):After months of thought, replaced bacchanalia with vices, which had to be extended to cover the Morrison case.

I've written a 20-printed-pages paper about Jim Morrison for school last year and I'd like to submit extracts from it to wikipedia. I think Jim would be the first person ever to be explained together with his work. A major part of my paper was about the main-themes of his poems and songs. What do you think of that? There's also a German translation planned. see [1] for the paper. -- TomK32 17:20
Concerning the edit of (18:43 5 June 2003);
  • "..reportedly enraged his father, ending all communication..." that is heresay, not the facts. Why take the part out about his mother? Surely she was an influence on Morrison too?
  • It's known that Morrison began consuming large amount drugs well before the Doors group formed.
  • "...basically being blacklisted.." Some concert cancellations do not equal blacklisting.

It is not relevant that some of Jim Morrison's So called fans, deface the French cemetary gravestones. Why give them notice? (unsigned)

because you cannot visit Pere LaChaise without noting his post-death cult there. French girls in halter-tops swarm all over the cemetery, querulously asking "Ou est Jeem?". As you near his gravestone the painted graffiti grows heavier, and on the nearest mausoleums these transfigure into signposts and arrows all pointing the way for his admirers. At all times of day, at least 10 young people are clustered around the tombstone, generally strumming their guitars and singing old Doors hits. It's an actual phenomenon, one which no one who has actually been to Pere Lachaise can miss, and deserves to be mentioned. And it's interesting. -- Someone else 17:46 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)

[Again, I stand by the idea that vandals deserve no place in Morriosn's bio page. It had nothing to do with his life. Misguided people doing destructive things to people's gravestones possibly should have their own listing under; Morrison Gravestone Phenomenon. I admit the defacing of property is unusual, but not significant at all to Morrison's life.]

*.."in the years folowing his death, fans allegedly spotted Morrison.." got to go.  Tabloid fotter.

Oliver Stone and his movie, The Doors, should not get a first or last mention in a Jim Morrison article. Ray Manzarek's remarks concerning that film should be revisited.

  • To me the idea of wikipedia is to collabratively create a fair, honest, fact filled article on a person, place, or thing. This version is not factual, full of POV, and very incomplete. The article talks about unsubstantiated ideas, blatantly incorrect statements, and unimportant sidelines i.e. vandals in the cemetary. What does that have to do with the man, the character, the music of Jim Morrison?

I think a fair, factual version is the one I added to. (9:45 6 Jun 2003) Thanks, Xio

I think this still reads like too much of a PR release. The bit on the potential assassination gave me a good chuckle, thanks. Also, I can't understand why you keep removing the bits on Pamela Courson. It was important to Morrison, even if it wasn't important to you. Koyaanis Qatsi 17:32 6 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I agree that much of this is unworthy of an encyclopedia, though quite funny (did Morrison fake his own death or was he killed by the government?!). The site that purports to show JM still alive is crazy enough to have something to do with him, but has no place on this page Brentford 23:59, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[Pamela Courson is mentioned as long time girlfriend. Whether Courson is important to Morrison seems to be stated with this included sentence. In another version, His two girlfriends are mentioned in the first paragraph about his life. I'm not sure that that's the place where they fit in. Also, the two statements on two of his girlfriends just said things weren't official. That's not saying much at all about Courson, who Morrison said was his soulmate.] Xio

The pic of the cemetary on a person's page about his life seems weird. Xio

A public domain pic of Morrison is hard to find...I hope this version seems better. Xio

The Indian story certainly explains the Peace Frog bridge. "Indians scattered on dawn's highway bleeding. Ghosts crowd the young child's fragile egg shell mind."

Removed a quotation misattributed to Morrison:

  • "You know that it would be untrue, you know that I would be a liar if I was to say to you, 'Girl, we couldn't get much higher.' C'mon, baby, light my fire."

Though he is famous for singing these lines, it is one of the few Doors songs where he did not actually write the lyrics. It was written by Robby Krieger, the guitarist for The Doors. ~ Kalki 10:58, Jul 23, 2004 (UTC)

Suggestions for reading?

I plan to add a list of books about Jim Morrison to this article. There are many books written about him, some better than others. This will be very helpful to people who want to learn more about this important artist and performer. Any suggestions, folks?

I went ahead and added books that I have read. These books are the ones you are talking about, although, there are some books written about Jim by the other members of the band but I have not read them so I do not know how good those books are. --Lizardking85

Rumored authorship?

Along the same line, I also ask this question: Should there be a list of books that are "allegedly authored" by Morrison on this page? There is strong evidence that these "books" are hoaxes. Why are they included here? This kind of stuff fuels inane rumors that Jim Morrison is still alive, which is egregious and irresponsible.


DATE? what is december 8, 1971? Not born, married, death. removed

Jim Morrison did not drop out of UCLA

The film school was having their annual film "festival". The students would present their films to the class to see if their films would make it to the event. Jim Morrison's film according to Jerry Hopkins' book "The Lizard King, The Essential Jim Morrison", his film was not liked but was given a complementary "D". Jim did not take criticism very well so he told his professor that he was going to quit, but it was too late because he was already going to graduate. When it was time to pick up his diploma he was walking down Venice beach smoking dope. This whole page needs to be redone because there are countless misleading statements. I have read all of the books about him pretty much and I would like to take a stab at it.

That's fine. Please use the books as references and cite your sources. Cheers, -Willmcw July 7, 2005 05:28 (UTC)

Question

I'm a bit too young to have experienced The Doors first hand, so, i'll have to ask the older wiki editors: Is it just me, or was Morrison what in the 1990s we call a geek? a geek that got the idea how the social structure of his time worked, and he reversed engineered and turned it against itself?

Project2501a 22:42, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

PS but then all poets do that inside-out thing, don't they?

He turned it against itself, and also against himself. But rather than a "geek", he was more an intellectual. ---Alexander 007 10:38, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
I'd say "Bohemian" is a better term.
[Bohemian]] was used to describe artists, writers, and disenchanted people of all sorts who wished to live non-traditional lifestyles. bogdan | Talk 10:47, 10 September 2005 (UTC)
Bohemian can fit him well, but "Bohemian" does not refer specifically to intellectual types. Many "Bohemians" are complete dimwits. I wasn't looking for a one-word description in any case. ---Alexander 007 18:41, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

In the 90's I would say that he would be what we call am 'EMO' maybe not a geek.203.39.13.66 03:56, 23 August 2006 (UTC)me

Grave Picture

Anyone in paris willing to go take a picture and GFDL it for us? Hipocrite - «Talk» 20:42, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

Speaking of Morrison's grave, here's an interesting piece of information that maybe should go in the article. I've read that Père Lachaise is looking to get rid of Morrison's remains. They say that they can't cope with the fan attention (and vandalism) that his grave attracts. Basically, they would ship Morrison's remains to anywhere in the world, to anyone that would simply pay for the transference. How about that?? Regards, Redux 01:07, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
That'd be a suitable addition if you can find a decent source for it. I've heard the same thing. Cheers, -Willmcw 05:56, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
I read this on the respected Brazilian magazine VEJA. They have all of their contents online at their website going back as far as 1997. I could probably find the piece (it was either about Morrison himself or the French graveyard — most likely the latter, if I recall correctly), but no one here would be able to access it, since the contents of their archive are exclusive to subscribers (which I am), and plus it'd be in Portuguese. But it is there, they ran the story and mentioned specifically the thing about Lachaise's administration being eager to get Morrison out of there. I could post the link to the story here, just to vouch for its existence, if it would be preferred (but again, no one would be able to open it). Regards, Redux 06:48, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay. This is the link to the VEJA story on Morrison: [2]. I remind people, however, that this content is restricted to subscribers of the magazine, so most people will not be able to open the page linked. Also, the article is in Portuguese. The declaration that Père Lachaise can't wait to get rid of Morrison's remains was made by historian Christian Charlet, who's the Administrator in charge of the cemetery. The story was published by the magazine in its issue released on May 26, 2004. Should we include the information now? Regards, Redux 21:43, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

I read some time ago that the cemetary decided not to move Jim's remains because his grave site was the 3rd highest tourist attraction in Paris after the Louvre and the Mona Lisa -- I do not however, have a source for this -- Krysstoffer Rodriguez-Lopez

I have been to jim's grave about 6 months ago, I have video and photo coverage of his grave contact me for info. vescio21@hotmail.com please use subject JIM MORRISON WIKI. October 15, 2006.

The new insertion about a supposed girlfriend, Martha Clark

There are enough scurrilious rumors going around about Jim Morrison that we don't need to include this rumor alongside two women who DID play an important part in Jim's life.

I agree. Material as detailed as this needs a solid source, but none has been provided. Let's take it out until the references, if any, can be checked. -Will Beback 19:43, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

I also changed "common law wife" to his "cosmic mate," as Jim and Pamela were not married; in fact, he was single. Common law marriage has never been legal in California. Pamela was able to get this distinction only through the probate court some 2.5 years after Jim died by claiming they had a common law marriage in Colorado (CA at the time recognized a "common law marriage" if it was legal in another state and the parties became residents of CA) in order to be entitled to "widow's benefits."

It's important that facts are stated on this site, instead of rumours, conjectures and misinformation. If that's what folks want, then they can read any of the dozens of "biographies" of Jim for their fill of BS.

But "cosmic mate" is not an appropriate term for a Wiki article; it's Morrison's personal reference for Courson. "Common-law spouse" is the closest appropriate terminology biographers have in describing Courson's relationship to Morrison. We could use "domestic partner," but in its current connotation the term only refers to LGBT relationships. But all in all, it doesn't make any sense for Wiki editors themselves to use "cosmic mate" in reference to Courson. We're supposed to have a "neutral point of view."--Pinko1977 02:03, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Agreed that we are supposed to be NPOV, but I'm not sure what is non-NPOV about that phrase. However, if that is objectionable, the closest appropriate terminology that is factually accurate is "live-in girlfriend". The problems with the "common-law wife" phrase have been pointed out by others above - there is a clear, objective meaning to that phrase, and it doesn't apply. Morrison was never married, common-law or otherwise. Merenta 20:07, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok can't you just say that she was his partner - I think everyone could understand that203.39.13.66 03:59, 23 August 2006 (UTC)me


The Unknown Soldier : first video ?

What's this about Jim doing the "first video"? The Beatles music videos in Hard Days Night pre-date in my opinion. MA

While "Hard Days Night" is a feature film rather than a video, there were music videos before "The Unknown Soldier". The earliest one I can document is Bob Dylan's video for Subterranean Homesick Blues, filmed May 8, 1965. I have corrected this article. Merenta 17:10, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Was Dylan's Subterranean "video" shown on television? No, but "The Unknown Soldier" had a limited television viewing audience, and it was named by VH1 as the "first official video 15 years before MTV." I'll go with VH1.

Death edited by some anonymous user, please remove.

There is an incomplete sentence under the Death section of the main article and it seems to be a false statement as well. It is quoted as: "supposedly he is still alive living in the french underground" for easier finding. ([3] by 210.210.33.231.) Thought I'd leave the editing to someone else as I am not authorized to do so. 70.37.74.226 06:13, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Mother's Recent Passing

I just wanted to let everyone know that Jim's mother Clara Clarke Morrison passed away December 29, 2005 at the age of eighty-six. You can find this tribute to her life at the Doors official website here. --Pinko1977 22:29, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


Spelling of the Brecht / Weil operetta

I have a question about the use of German spelling for the word "Mahogany." Since the rest of the title has been translated into English, why does this one word appear in its German form? If you do a web search, the "mahogany" spelling is used consistently on both commercial and university sites that use the English language. "Mahagonny" is used in the original title and on German language sites. Does the Wikipedia have a convention regarding this spelling? It shows up in the same manner on the link to the article about the operetta. Thanks. Ande. (Who doesn't do much of this editing stuff.)

It's hard to know how to translate nouns that have similar spellings. However this discussion would be best handled at the article itself, Rise and Fall of the City of Mahagonny. Thanks for catching the underlying error, the confusion w/ "3 Penny Opera". Cheers, -Will Beback 07:09, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Faked death & postmortem rumors

Deleting a balanced discussion of a text you dismiss as conspiracy theory and preposterous is simply POV by selective editing. It's a fact that some deaths have been faked successfully before, it's more than wishful thinking by fans, it's relevant to the subject, it was written with balance, and it deserves fair mention. 69.145.82.2 08:48, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, first we have fils du soleil pulling a relevant mention of the hoaxed-death angle, which my POV complaint speaks to, then we have 24.7.5.47 pulling it yesterday sans explication, and since neither of them seems to grasp wikipedia well enough to discuss matters, it seems we're in for a revert war followed by an admin giving them a lecture they'll probably ignore till he/she locks them up for a bit :-/ 69.145.82.2 07:18, 6 March 2006 (UTC)


Sorry, you're right, I should have justified my edit - I was new to Wikipedia at the time. The "Jim Morrison cowboy" is not only a hoax, it's also a scam : this guy is using his fraudulent claim to sell videos and other products. I'm sure everybody can agree we don't want to give him publicity by linking his site to this page. However, a brief mention along all of the "postmortem rumors" - as is the case at this time - seems fair and acceptable. Fils du Soleil 21:05, 17 May 2006 (UTC)


Hello, 69.145.82.2! You seem to be talking about me here a bit (24.7.5.47). Honestly, I had seen previous removals of the cowboy stuff and took your re-posting as just another nuisance posting but it looks as if you are serious about the matter. Didn't intend any insult. But the cowboy hoaxer really doesn't warrant a full discussion of the possibility that he may be "genuine." That's just giving unnecessary credence to a hoaxer and it is not NPOV, as you believe. Just because something is written in a neutral tone does not mean that it is a neutral view point. By giving equal weight to the cowboy story, you lend it too much credence and create an unbalanced description. It would be similar to giving a full fledged discussion of the merits of the Moon-Landing Deniers on a page for NASA. I added a paragraph about the various rumors that surround Morrison's death because I think you are right about these rumors being important to his myth and appeal. I would expect at least some people would be drawn to this page to check out such rumors, the cowboy rumor being the most recent. Someone else has added a link to the cowboy story, and that might satisfy your purposes. 24.7.5.47 08 March 2006


Excuse me, no credible evidence exists that Jim EVEN WANTED to "fake his own death." Could we please remove the tea-reading BS and stick to the facts? First you need to understand Jim Morrison's background: He was the over-protected oldest son of a prominent, comfortable middle to upper-middle class intact family, who rebelled at 21 in the 1960s. Let's not spin more garbage around Jim, OK? It wasn't until January 1971 that Jim came up with the anagram of his name, "Mr Mojo Risin'." The remark Hopkins quoted in his book attributed to Jim talking about "faking his own death" came about in 1966 when Jim was trying to figure out a way to garner the group more attention. Period.

(I'm responding to the preceding paragraph.) We have no way of knowing whether Morrison ever wanted to actually fake his death. What we do have are statements form Hopkins and other Door's members about such an idea. Those were statements that lots of hopeful or gullible fans took as being fact. I think it's helpful to explain why so many people initially refused to believe that Morrison was really dead. Why those beliefs are so enduring is a different story. People like the cowboy hoaxer certainly play on this with some regularity. And, unfortunately, way too many people fall for this stuff. Hey, I just met a guy who fell for the Nigerian bank account scam and lost close to $100,000! And the guy isn't even stupid, at least in the rest of his life, just naive and foolishly hopeful. 24.7.5.47 10 MAR 2006


Let's avoid editorializing on the article page

Someone has rather strong opinions about Morrison and even stronger opinions about Morrison's fans. Unfortunately, nearly all of the edits made by the recent poster rather froth with contempt and, perhaps not surprisingly, make as many errors as the poster has attempted to "correct." I reverted the article to an earlier one by Silentium who seems to be making careful edits. Perhaps the other poster could post his / her remarks on the discussion page so whatever valid concerns he / she raises could be addressed in a non-inflamatory manner. Ande B. 21:25, 10 March 2006 (UTC)


When I first read the information on Jim Morrison, it was pretty accurate. However, during the past few months, a number of typos, grammatical errors and plain misinformation has appeared, examples of which include: Jim was never married. Common law marriage has never existed in California. Dates of birth of Jim's siblings, and other dates and locations where the family lived were deleted. Too much emphasis on whether or not Jim really died is conjecture, not fact.

The article is supposed to be non-biased, straightforward, and factual. There is too much editorializing. It appears some folks would like to change the course of history into their way of thinking, culled, I assume, from the numerous books written about Jim, and seeing "The Doors" movie (which, according to those close to Jim, failed to capture the intelligent, charismatic man and was one long MTV-style video). Information on the Morrison family is speculation only, but presented here as fact. Jim's parents often appear as monsters, something they never were in real life.

I haven't made any changes, just commenting on the subject matter.

A. Beaconsfield


Sorry, Beaconsfield, but you are going beyond editorializing and becoming simply argumentative and hostile on the article page. Your comments belong here where they can be considered more dispassionately.

There are many reasons that bring people to celebrity biographies on Wikipedia. For Morrison, some of the most common are questions are about whether and how he died, whether and to whom he was married. There are plenty of tabloid rumor sites out there and the least that Wikipedia can do is enable the curious reader to satisfy their desire to get at some real facts. Whether you disapprove of people's curiosity is not relevant. If you don't think that certain sources are reliable, and plenty of them aren't, then start a section that responsibly presents the critiques that other, more reliable sources, have made of those weak sources.

I have no idea what you are referring to when you claim that Morrison's parents are represented as monsters.

You seem to have mistaken the definition of NPOV to mean "the point of view that I agree with." I don't believe that is the standard and expect to be corrected by those more knowledgeable than I am if I am wrong about that. Attributing motivations or attempting to psychoanalyze other contributors is not helpful and would be experienced as insulting to most people I know.

As to the near hysterical cry that "California has never recognized common law marriage," you are absolutely wrong. Article Four of the U.S. Constitution requires all the states, including California, to recognize the effect of the laws in other states, even common-law marriages formed in other states. This is generally referred to as the "full faith and credit" and "privileges and immunities" clauses. So, ever since California was admitted as a state, it has accepted the common-law marriage status of those who enter into such arrangements in sister states. The fact that California does not permit common-law marriages to be initiated within its borders is not relevant to the discussion.

It doesn't matter how long it took the California courts to determine whether Courson and Morrison entered into a common-law marriage: that was their ultimate determination and it was never overturned. (There is no such thing as common-law divorce in American law. Common law spouses must go through the same procedures as formally married couples.)

The bulk of the time in the probate case was eaten up by litigation over the amount of debt Morrison owed the Doors for advances made during his life and excessive attorney fees generated in part by Courson's insistence on fighting the Doors and everyone else, including her own attorneys, each step of the way.

Please don't start arguing law with me because, like it or not, I am a California attorney. (Note: Nothing I state here is to be taken as legal advice.)

If you have facts that should be added to the article, by all means add them. But arguments have no place there.

If I have wrongly accused you of making changes actually inserted by someone else, then I seriously apologize and redirect my comments to the real culprit. 24.7.5.47 06:49, 13 March 2006 (UTC) __________________________________________________________________________________ You have wrongly accused me of making changes. Read my last sentence: "I haven't made any changes, just commenting on the subject matter." Apparently, you didn't read that because you were too busy trying to discredit me. I am not arguing with you. BTW, from which law school did you graduate? Stanford Law School here; I practice patent, trademark and intellectual property law in the City.

The only reason Pamela was able to get the "common law marriage" status was because no one appeared on behalf of the family (the next of kin) to dispute that claim. It was her last grab at the Golden Goose. I am surprised by the so-called experts who perpetuate Jim's and Pamela's wonderful relationship when in reality it was a dysfunctional dance by two young adults who were disabled by their own internal problems. No psychoanalysis here, them are the facts.

My rant was directed at the people who make edits without first discussing them here. Repeating rumours and outright whoppers from the various books written about Jim does not an accurate biography make. Jim has turned into a cardboard cut-out on which anyone can paint his or her image of their "Jim," then force feed it to the masses as fact.

If people want to continue exploiting Jim, then by gosh, go ahead and do it. The Estate's coffers only swell with each "new" Morrison adventure. (Amazing how much that guy packed into five years.) By last count, he's been married 4 times, has 11 children, is hiding out in Africa, signed his name over 25 million times (keeping eBay as the premier Morrison goldmine), ad nauseam.

You'd be surprised at the people who knew Jim Morrison well and visit this site to get yet another chuckle at some of the more outrageous claims. Wikipedia is sadly just another extension of the great Morrison myth.

And to Fils du Soleil: Au contraire. You are referring to the "Lizard King," not the real Jim Morrison. If Jim hadn't had competent legal representation, he would have landed in prison over the Miami incident (not to mention his numerous brushes with the law). Jim had nothing but respect for Max Fink and was very impressed by Fink's representation. In fact, Jim became enthralled with the legalities of the trial, namely the "free speech" defense, took copious notes and planned on writing a book about his experiences in America's courts. ----192.168.255.255 _____________________________________________________________________________________


Gee, if lawyers start to get involved, we're never gonna make it... Who would have thought that an article on Jim Morrison required so much legal expertise, especially regarding an artist who had so much loathing for authority and the law in general. Guess life can sometimes be ironic. Fils du Soleil 13:57, 13 March 2006 (UTC)


Hello Fils du Soleil, guess ya just never know. When I was in art school I would have never imagined that I would become a lawyer. But I found myself attracted to civil rights and First Amendment issues somewhere along the way. I don't want to be a royal pain about anything here, I get enough of that in my work.

When I first dropped by a little while back, it was because I was helping a kid with a junior high modern music project. The site had been vandalized so I had to direct the research to the handful of books I had on the subject. Then I came back later to get rid of the crap and saw just how fanatic some people are about their own version of "truth." If they could write half-way decently, as most Wiki contributors seem to manage, it probably wouldn't matter much. But strident exclamations on the article page are distracting, to say the least.

I am amazed at the vehemence with which some misinformed people spout legal and medical opinions. I don't see a need for that in the Morrison bio. And I doubt that any current contributor here knew Morrison on a personal basis, so all we have are publications of varying reliability and crazy rumors. Crazy seems to attract the most attention.

Anyhow, for whatever it's worth, I did get beat by the cops at a Doors concert when I was a kid. That should count for something! 24.7.5.47 20:48, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Scott Stapp does not belong

Those musicians who Morrison has influenced is truly long and varied. However, this page cannot be a complete list of such persons. To this end, Scott Stapp's name does not belong alongside the other notable musicians who have had significant impacts on the musical landscape. Until Stapp establishes a larger body of work, his name should not be included.

Morrison's Wife at Common Law

Someone should actually read the probate court's decision. It is NOT a "legal technicality." The probate court in California found that Morrison and Courson contracted a valid marriage under Colorado law.

Colorado is one of eleven U.S. jurisdictions (plus Scotland, outside of the U.S.) which still allow the common law contract of marriage. By living together and holding themselves out to be husband and wife (Morrison referring to her parents as "the in-laws," etc.) in Colorado, they legally became husband and wife under Colorado law. It is irrelevant that California does not permit common law marriage, because California law on validity of marriage provides that all foreign marriages are valid in California if they were lawfully contracted by the law of the place of celebration (or in the legal Latin, "per lex loci celebrationis").

Apart from that, Morrison left a will (dated 12 February 1969) in which Courson was named sole heir, provided she survived his death by three months. California probate and family courts are NOT sentimental. If the California court found a marriage was lawfully contracted under Colorado law, then that was indeed the case in fact, as well as in law. Whether Morrison himself (or even Courson) actually beleived they were contracting a common law marriage at the time they did is a debatable question, but that they *did* contract a marriage at common law under the laws of Colorado is *legally* a proven fact, whatever either of them may have thought they were doing.

The ruling by the court simply reinforced the provisions of Morrison's will. Courson having inherited his entire estate by will, as well as as his wife, the heirs to that estate upon HER death were, thus, HER heirs at law instead of Morrison's heirs at law -- that is, HER parents got the lot instead of HIS parents when she died in 1974.

Oh, by the way, California IS a common law state. All of the individual states, and the United States (i.e., the federal entity), common law states EXCEPT for Louisiana, which is a civil law (or code law) state. "Common law state" means the basic law of the jurisdiction is the common law of England. "Civil" or "code law state" means the basic law of the jurisdiction is the French civil code, as propounded by Napoleon. (It was Napoleon who sold Louisiana to the United States in 1803.) Whether a state is or is not a "common law state" is irrelevant to common law marriage.

207.200.116.132 07:08, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

The whole "common-law wife" thing is irrelevant to this article. It's a legal ruling made after Jim died, and in the context of the resolution of his will. So it has no significance other than a legal technicality. When Jim was alive, Pamela Courson was his girlfriend for the last years of his life, and his "cosmic mate" - which is already a lot. So the "common-law wife" ruling may be mentioned in passing, as an aside (which is the case now), but NOT made a central part of Jim & Pam's relationship, and certainly not be mentioned in the introduction of the article, as was the case in an ealier version.

Fils du Soleil 14:28, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

You know, Fils, I'm tempted to agree with you on this part. The common-law stuff was here long before I came around but it does seem to add a lot of consternation. My concern about reducing it too much is that inevitably someone will add it back in and the battles will start all over again. I'm thinking of maybe adding a sentence that says something like "the decision by the court was made in the context of Courson's application for a widow's allowance." Then, perhaps a link to the Courson page for further details. I was surprised that Courson had her own Wikipedia page. Shows what I know about who is important it the minds of fans! Ande B. 22:48, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Good point, Fils! I agree with both of you. The common law designation was awarded by the probate court only after Pamela's petition was filed, and Jim had been dead for several years. Jim was never married to anyone and, while he and Pamela had a somewhat dysfunctional relationship, she was the main person in his life. Giving more attention to Patricia Kennealy only perpetuates the myth she has created for herself as Jim's bereaved widow.
BTW, the biography as presently written is excellent. Well balanced -- not too "out there" (vis-a-vis the rock idol Lizard King image) and not too tame. I like the mixture of conjecture and rumours about Jim's death, since like it or not, these are part of the reason for Jim's continuing popularity and newfound fans.
I suspect when the two documentaries come out in 2007 celebrating The Doors' 40th anniversary, more information about Jim will become known. Admiral Morrison and his daughter Anne met with Dick Wolf on a Saturday afternoon in December 2005 to discuss and participate in the main documentary set for theatrical release. ---- Annie1004, 13:32, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

I have reverted the recent reinsertion and expansion of the details about various common-law marriage laws, which was done by User:207.200.116.14 (who has now been blocked for vandalism). This is not an article about common-law marriage laws. The legalese that was there would be confusing to the average reader, and the section was already too long. I had already worked twice to compress it and bring its tone more in line with the rest of the article. I think I was erring to the side of verbosity by leaving as much in as I did. User:207.200.116.14, if you become un-blocked and seek to edit this article some more, please do not just re-insert these long tangents into the article. Consider working on articles on that topic, and come discuss any proposed additions to this article here on the talk page. And when you do, please place new comments *after* the previous comments, not before them. Thank you. --Kathryn NicDhàna 04:35, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Inscription on tomb

I changed the wording slightly in the section dealing with the transcription on Morrison's tomb. In Roman characters, it reads: KATA TON DAIMONA EAYTOY. Only the Greek delta is changed to the letter "D." Previously, the description read that this was a "transliteration," which was inaccurate and may have induced someone to attempt to render the pronunciation into English. My background with ancient Greek is quite rusty and focused on the Aeolic dialect, I don't know what dialect was chosen for the inscription. Most of the time, the Greek character upsilon is transcribed as a capital "Y" although it is generally pronounced as "u." I don't know which dialect would render the upsilon as "u" in one instance but as "v" in another' although the "V" may have been intended as the Greek letter "nu." I'm not familiar with that convention and would appreciate it if the person who rendered that transliteration could point me in the proper direction. I believe it is more useful for the reader to see the letters as transcribed rather than an attempt at an English pronunciation. Thanks for any insight. Ande B. 01:45, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Film

Does anybody know the whereabouts of Morrison's thesis film?

ABresnahan 16:35, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

I seem to recall Manzarek saying he thought that it had been lost during one of Morrison's relocations after school. Try asking at The Doors official site. Ande B 06:03, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Grandparents

I corrected the names of Morrison's grandparents and removed a weird line inserted by the same spammer. Ande B 06:03, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

My understanding from several family members is that Jim was particularly close to his grandmother, Caroline Morrison, because she encouraged & nurtured his passion for the arts (something neither Clara nor Steve had any use for; this was the cause of a lot of friction between parents and son). OTOH, according to the books writtens about Jim, the Admiral's parents were cold/strict/teetotaling, etc., which is not accurate.----Annie1004 13:59, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Hello Annie 1004, I'm sure that the Morrison family has been subject to a great deal of unfair criticism and pop-psychologizing by people who have nothing better to do. But the Wikipedia is designed to reflect what is callled "verifiable" and "sourced" matierial, which may not necessarily "true" or "accurate" material. This is understandably a source of frustration to those who have actual, personal knowledge about a person or any topic. If you know of a verifiable, written or recorded source of reliable information that contradicts any of the material in this article, then it would probably help your cause to cite to that material as a source for clarification. As you no doubt understand, the Wikipedia cannot simiply accept the word of contributors because, on the internet, anyone can make claims that are incapable of being verified. It also takes some practice to learn to write to the "approved" Wikipedia "neutral" style. I'm going to suggest that we consider creating a subsection to this article captioned something like "Problems in verifying Morrison's personal history." Perhaps inconsistencies among various authors and from interviews can be briefly high-lighted there. But unless the Morrison family makes a publicly available statement for all to read, we're pretty much stuck with the written materials, good or bad, that have managed to be published. And I, for one, would not blame the Morrisons for being reluctant to talk to the media. Ande B 22:07, 19 April 2006 (UTC)

Aliases/Nicknames

Shouldn't there be a section, or at least a sentence in one of the sections, that lists Morrison's nicknames? It seems strange that there isn't one already...but if there was one, why delete it?--Reed9277 22:59, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


==Question== Was Jim Morrison Gay?

Need opening photo pronto

Jim Morrison is a major cultural and historical figure, and we need a photo of him at the beginning of the article. Can someone suggest a good source for fair use images of Jim?--Pinko1977 20:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Both pictures are the same

Both pictures of Jim Morrison are the same. Could there be a different picture for the beginning of the article? Rocketqueen 15:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Relationships

Something about Jim Morrison's past girlfriends before Pam Courson, such as Mary Werbelow, should be added along with his red-head 'fetish'.

I'm curious as to why there isn't any reference to, at least, the Mary Werbelow story. (Which, from my understanding, is fairly credible and well-researched by the St. Petersberg Times -- http://www.sptimes.com/2005/09/25/Doors/Mary_and_Jim_to_the_e.shtml )

If we're going to talk girlfriends/lovers/one nighters or what have you, what about Gloria Stavers of 16 magazine? There are SEVERAL sources that have her romantically linked to Morrison.

Native American

I heard he had some Native American in him, anyone know if this is true or not?--Stripedtiger 06:16, 7 July 2006 (UTC)


Story about Indians "fake"?

"Both of Morrison's parents claimed that event never happened. In his many comments about this episode, Morrison stated that he was so upset by the incident that his parents eventually told him he was "just having a bad dream," in order to calm him down. Regardless of whether the incident was real, imagined, or fabricated, Morrison stuck with it and made repeated references to the imagery in his songs, poems, and interviews."

What is the source for this? Cheers.



Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland Ohio / Jim Morrison

I was just recently at the Rock and The Roll Hall of Fame maybe about two weeks or more so ago as of this date here in the talk section. And I had taken particular interest to the small exhibit that was focused mainly on Jim Morrisson. I did my best to pay careful and close attention to the chronology time line of the letters and photos through all of 1965 and well into 1971 to and from Jim Morrisson before the time of when he and the Doors had gotten there start. Now in and around what was maybe 1965 for when Jim did not seem to have such long hair as he is so well known today from so many photos that are circulated all over the world leading up to the time for when he died in Paris in what I think was possibly either 1970 or 1971. I was kind of somewhat amazed from that exhibit. That before the time of when the Doors had got there start and in the letters and the photos with his family. He had seemed to me quite bright and educated and infact lucid and clear not just in the ways of poetry and of language and cinema and of film but also in many other ways as well. And so then maybe 4 or 5 years later he is found dead inside of some bath tub somewhere there in Paris. It seemed a shame even though I never really let him nor knew him as others did. I guess that is what excess drinking and drugs will do in a person. Before the formation of the Doors, he had seemed quite sharply intelligent and balanced and rational and educated and quite a unique and a interesting person back in 1965 to know.
www.geocities.com/berniethomas68 06:57, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Ed Sullivan lyrics

Why did Ed Sullivan want the lyrics changed? There is nothing wrong with "girl we couldn't get much higher". I don't see any drug references in that line. Being or getting high can have so many different meanings. Like in Tal Bachman's - She's so High, I don't think he's talking someone high on drugs. Its very strange that anyone would find this line offensive.Davez621 08:05, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, apparantly Ed Sullivan and his associates considered the phrase to refer specifically to drugs. If I had been there, I would have suggested to the group that they ask the Sullivan Show officials if they could replace it with “Girl, we couldn’t GO much higher,” then if they approved that, to add, “Girl, we couldn’t GO TOO much higher,” and if they approved that, just sing it with the vowel sounds in “go” and “too” lapsed into a “schwa,” sounding like, “Girl, we couldn’t guh-tuh much higher,” and then, sung in the rhythm and melody of the song, the audience would barely be able to distinguish any change at all between that and the original lyrics. (Sigh) Too bad I wasn’t there to think that up and suggest it to them, eh? —Keith H.

Rolling Stone Mag in 1985

"He's Young, He's Hot, He's Sexy and He's Dead" - worth adding anywhere in to the article?

The Soft Parade

I think there should be a little more mention of the albums, Waiting For The Sun, and especially The Soft Parade (which has no mention at all). As the latter is heavy with orchestrated music, and an example of the Doors' courage in testing new ground, it is worthy of mention. Especially in context of how the staple popular songs from earlier albums were becoming 'boring' for Jim. As for Waiting For the Sun, the mention could focus around how originally, Jim was wanting one side to be an entire recording of Celebration of The Lizard, but was later decided against. So, I'll leave this up to any regular contributors to discuss and/or implement in the article. G.g. 19:06, 21 August 2006 (UTC)


  • I agree this would be a worthy addition to the article (although Celebration of the Lizard is already alluded to here and there). And it doesn't sound like something controversial. You seem to have a fair knowledge of the subject, so you should try implementing these ideas into the article. This is what Wikipedia is all about.

Fils du Soleil 03:36, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Ray stated in an interview that the live PBS performance of The Soft Parade was one of the best Doors performances ever recorded -- no source -- Krysstoffer Rodriguez-Lopez

Crusty

You forgot the Simpson's episode where Crusty was playing a montage of past shows with him screaming into the microphone while lying on the stage just like you know who.

200.165.103.213 20:06, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Editorializing

I think the section about the legacy of Morrison and the Doors contains some editorializing that should be deleted. Specifically, I refer to the passage:

They let us "break on through to the other side", however briefly. They did indeed open the "doors of perception", doors that can never be shut again. And that is probably the true legacy of Jim Morrison and The Doors.

I appreciate and understand the author's feelings, but this is not really suitable for a Wikipedia entry.

Any comments?

--Skb8721 20:12, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. This article has an ongoing problem with opinion and POV being inserted. Contributors need to remember that this is an encyclopedia, not a music review or personal essay. --Kathryn NicDhàna 20:21, 10 October 2006 (UTC)


  • Although it is probably on the fringe of Wikipedia's standard practice, this small paragraph you refer to seems appropriate in an article about a music idol. And it has been here for quite a while without causing any trouble. 172.210.94.179 11:50, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

"[Friedrich] Nietzsche killed Jim Morrison..."

I'd love to include this John Densmore quote in here somewhere. The artistic influences or death sections are the most obvious candidates, but those are pretty well-written right now, and right off hand I can't see anyplace it wouldn't disrupt the flow. Thoughts? Also, if someone has the page number of the quote (from Riders on the Storm by Densmore) it would be good to be able to cite that. --Kathryn NicDhàna 00:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)


  • Do you know what John Densmore meant by that ? Is this a reference to Jim's "dionysiac lifestyle" ? Or just a pun related to Nietzsche's "God is dead, we killed him" ? - Fils du Soleil 00:54, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't have the Densmore book at hand but, IIRC, he was referring to Jim, like many other young people, being adversely affected by Nietzsche's philosophies, and that those ideas led him to act in a self-destructive manner. So, imho, the former, but the latter does add another level of possible interpretation :-) Hence, I added it to the article a while back. --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 19:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
What value does that quote give to the article? Maybe it should be on Wikiquote or in Densmore's article. It really seems out of place in the middle of that paragraph. I will not delete, though, until more people state their opinions.(Antonio.sierra 01:30, 21 March 2007 (UTC))

JIM MORRISON ACCIDENT - YEAR

Hope I'm doing this correctly.

Just saw this in Morrison article.

According to Morrison, one of the most important events of his life occurred in 1949 during a family trip in New Mexico. He described the event as follows:[citation needed]

The accident is being researched for a documentary. So far research shows it happened in 1947, not 1949, while the Admiral was stationed in New Mexico. Jim said it was when he was around four years old, maybe just turned five, before they moved to Los Altos, California. I'll check data, since you need a citation and get back soon.Salliort 23:08, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

LA WOMAN ALBUM REHEARSAL DATE CORRECTION

I would like to add a correction to:

After a lengthy break, the group reconvened in November 1970 to record what proved to be their last LP with Morrison, L.A. Woman.

Actually the group had reconvened for rehearsals for the album by the week of October 12, 1970. I interviewed Jim for Circus Magazine on October 13, 1970. They had a meeting that day after the interview and I watched one of the rehearsals for L.A. Woman on October 15, 1970. - Documented in Lost Interview Tapes: Number Two.Salliort 23:22, 2 November 2006 (UTC)

Any editors reading this? Guess not. Also Stephen Davies' book, 'Jim Morrison, Life, Death, Legend' Chapter 8, (citation)Salliort 17:32, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Kathryn, It's now several weeks later and I'm wondering why you have not bothered to answer my request to clarify Patricia's real standing with Jim Morrison which was that Jim did not take the ceremony seriously. Her own words in the book Rock Wives and her own words in the Riders on the Storm CD clearly state the doubt she had about Jim's feelings matching her own.

We need balance on this. I do not find the entry as it stands balanced in the inference. So let's change it with Patricia's. What we have about Patricia now is contributing to the lack of credibility from which Wikipedia seems now to be suffering.)Salliort 23:17, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

KENNEALY MORRISON - PRESBYTERIAN MINISTER WITNESS. HANDFASTING LEGITIMATE?

Kathryn,

I have checked a variety of sources: Kennealy Morrison's autobiography, her Rock Wives interview, newspaper interviews, etc. The only place I can find any reference to the "Presbyterian Minister" is in Kennealy Morrison's blog on livejournal.

Since "blogs are largely not acceptable as sources" (wikipedia usage-sources) and every other source I was able to find in various archives and search engines does not in any way identify the witness as a Presbyterian minister, I hope you concur that it is not correct to keep that reference in Jim's article.

I would like to discuss this with other editors as well.

It's in *Strange Days*, hang on and I'll see if I can find the page number... page 63, hardcover edition. --Kathryn NicDhàna 22:18, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for the info.
A question as to WIKI procedure: My source for almost all of my information about Jim came directly from Jim. We were able to discuss a great deal about both personal and other subjects over the period of time we knew each other.
What makes my personal experience "Original Research," which cannot be used on Wikipedia, different from Patricia's first hand information (Original Research), which is used as a fact on Wikipedia? Is it the fact that Patricia wrote her original research in her AUTObiography?
You have said you also have knowledge. What makes it different for both of us?Salliort 00:04, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi Sallie, What makes your, or my, recollections or analysis of the matter (or our recollections of what someone else may have said to us) Original Research is that our opinions and recollections have not been previously published by a reputable source. And if they had, it would be more appropriate for another editor to document our work than for us to quote ourselves. What makes the inclusion of information that was published in Strange Days not Original Research is that, even though it is an autobiography, it was published by a major publishing house (Dutton/Penguin). In order for the book to be published, the content had to first be cleared by the firm's lawyers. This degree of accountability is one of the things that makes it a more Reliable source than, say, a posting on a personal web site or message board. If the author of that book wanted to come here and post additional recollections that had not been previously published, she would also not be permitted to add those things as any unpublished recollections would be considered original research. Please read the links. I hope this makes it clearer. --Kathryn NicDhàna 00:39, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you, Kathryn, it does. Salli Salliort 05:51, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Kathryn,

I have asked for a more balanced POV on the Kennealy handfasting ceremony. Several days ago you asked for documentation. Several days ago I posted the section pertaining to this matter for you on private talk.

The Doors on the Doors, (Hyperion) gives Jim's POV. It is now documented that Jim did not take the ceremony seriously. The way the article on Jim currently reads it gives the facts but in a manner that clearly conveys that Jim also took the whole ceremony seriously. Since Jim did not and it is documented, it is my opinion that it would be proper for you to finally allow the quote from Victoria Balfour's Rock Wives where Patricia says that Jim probably didn't take it seriously, or a quote from the new release, Babe Hill's quote perhaps. I think this would be the fair and accurate thing to do. Isn't that what Wikipedia is about, fairness and accuracy? Salliort 00:26, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, we could add a quote from one person (say, Babe Hill) who claims Jim said one thing about the ceremony, then another who swears he said another thing, plus the letters and poems Jim addressed, "To my wife, Patricia" and "To Patricia Morrison". Then we could add a quote from one person who claims Jim swore he was leaving Pam and only stayed with her out of pity, then a quote from someone who claims Jim swore to the end Pam was his one and only. Then a quote from someone who claims Jim said he was intending to reconcile with his parents, and another who claims Jim died yelling "I hate my father". That's a lot of clutter. A lot of hearsay. I think the approach we have now is best: Just the facts. What *is* documented is that Jim signed a document stating that he and Patricia declared themselves "wedded". That is of a whole different order of proof than hearsay. --Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 01:09, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Kathryn,

The quotes in The Doors latest book (published by Hyperion) were run through the same legal process as Patricia's book "Strange Days." So to use any of those quotes would follow the documentation Wikipedia allows.

That is why we should have Patricia's quote from her interview in Rock Wives about Jim's probably not taking the ceremony seriously. That would solve the whole problem. It is a fact. Patricia said it. It is documented in a book that went through the same legal process as Patricia's Strange Days. It is probably the most honest statement Patricia has made about the handfasting.

The only Mrs. Morrison that I knew of was Pamela and she was legally Jim's wife per the states of California and Colorado. So the letters addressed to "My wife, Patricia," are doubtful as to source, because the veracity of the handwriting as Jim's is in question by those who are familiar with his handwriting.

Additionally, those particular letters seem to have increased since Jim's death. The letters that Victoria Balfour and Jerry Hopkins saw were described as a very small handful. Jim referred to about ten letters, poems, and drawings in total that he sent to her in 1970, not 1971. By 1971 Jim was through with her and had kicked her out of his life. So the fact that Patricia says they are legitimate, doesn't hold a lot of credibility in my book. I would take Jim's word over Patricia's letters, notes, and "document."

Finally, I have to wonder why you're stalling on this. What is your interest here? It can't be just Wikipedia. If so, you'd just allow the quote from Patricia in Rock Wives.

As I have posted to you repeatedly over the last couple of weeks, that would balance the tone and allow Patricia to save what face she is able to, in view of the fact that the only principal participant who took that handfasting seriously was Patricia.Salliort 18:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Kathryn,

It's been a couple of weeks.

The section on Patricia's ceremony still reads as though both Jim and Patricia took the ceremony seriously.

Jim did not. Patricia knew that. She said so on a CD, which I have in my possession, and in Rock Wives, so will you stop blocking the posting of a reasonable and more balanced view in Jim's article and allow the quote from Rock Wives?

It's avoidance like yours that is contributing to Wikipedia's loosing credibility in research circles.

Perhaps you would like to refer this to someone else at Wikipedia who might have a different perspective on this situation?Salliort 23:36, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

JIM FILM SCHOOL: UCLA DID NOT HAVE ONE THEN

Jim studied at the College of Fine Arts, UCLA. The College of Fine Arts was established in 1960, with degrees available in art, dance, music, and theater arts.

Although Jim studied film courses at the College of Fine Arts, he got his degree in Theater Arts.

UCLA did not have a film school until 1989 when it became the School of Theater, Film and Television which replaced the College of Fine Arts.

See UCLA History Project on UCLA website. Salliort 16:47, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

The Theatre Arts department was UCLA's film school. Everybody called it "film school". While we should be technically accurate, we should make it clear he was attending film school. The new language is too indirect. -Will Beback · † · 19:26, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Actually no, it wasn't.

In 1963-64-65 the Theater Arts Department was part of the College of Fine Arts. The Theater Arts Department was not ever listed as UCLA's film school. After basic courses in theater, you could study courses in Theater or Film. The film courses at UCLA were not as extensive as what they are now. They were not comparable to the courses taught at USC's film school at that time. The curriculums were different in scope and importance.

People who went to UCLA or planned to go to UCLA said they were studying film or cinematography, but there was no film school there. Therefore, Jim could not attend film school.

From what I remember, calling it the film school was something that they called it after they left UCLA, not while they were studying film there.

In 1963-64 I was planning to transfer from Santa Monica City College to the College of Fine Arts where I was going to study theater as opposed to studying film or cinematography. I had friends there studying cinematography and theater classes.Salliort 22:59, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

I just know that it was common usage to refer to UCLA's "film school" long before 1989. I think we should be correct but not punctilious. If Morrison said he went to film school then we should also incorporate that usage. -Will Beback · † · 05:49, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
"Film school" is the common usage, even among those at UCLA.[4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12]. I've edited the text to include both designations. -Will Beback · † · 22:46, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

guys, who died before 30

We should start such a category, not? Jimi Hendrix, Curt Kobain, Jim Morrison, James Dean ...

We had one, it got deleted.

A Deleted Paragraph (But added, due to its beauty, to the discussion section)

Since this paragraph is problematic as part of an encyclopedia, I deleted it. However, since it is such a profound and beautifully worded paragraph, I moved it here so it could be preserved.

--Andy Jones

"If my poetry aims to achieve anything, it's to deliver people from the limited ways in which they see and feel", Jim once said. And that is exactly what he and The Doors achieved. With their hauntingly beautiful music that stays with you long after "the music's over", they take us to uncharted territories. They let us "break on through to the other side", however briefly. They did indeed open the "doors of perception", doors that can never be shut again. And that is probably the true legacy of Jim Morrison and The Doors. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.210.68.227 (talk) 12:10, 16 December 2006 (UTC).

  • This paragraph should probably be put back in. Although it is on the fringe of Wikipedia's "standard policy", it is indeed quite well written and informative, and it's probably acceptable in an article about a music idol (and it's been here for a very long time without causing any trouble). - 172.204.69.111 03:08, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
That material certainly does not belong. It is not written in an encyclopedic tone and makes POV value judgments without attribution. -Will Beback · † · 22:44, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. It does not belong in the article. ~ Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 23:01, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Also agreed. The paragraph clearly doesn't fit with the rest of the article. Wikipedia isn't the proper venue for a tribute of this type, it needs to be removed or edited so that it conforms to wikipedia's conventions. 211.31.161.9 13:50, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Jim Morrison & The Doors' Legacy

Here is the paragraph in question, for future reference (keeping it, removing it, or putting it back in). - Fils du Soleil 19:40, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Jim Morrison often claimed he walked in the footsteps of French poet Arthur Rimbaud (1854-1891), once having said, "I am a Rimbaud with a leather jacket". Some sources allege, although it's unverified, that while in France at the end of his life, Jim undertook a pilgrimage to Rimbaud's birthplace in northeastern France, Charleville.

This lineage between "the man with the soles of wind" (Rimbaud's nickame) and "the Lizard King" (Jim's nickname) is very fitting. Both symbolized the bravado and the rebellion of youth against a conservative society that seeks to squelch the individual through social control. Both were brilliant individuals torn between their ambition to shake things up through their art and their temptation to drift away, before being caught up and finally struck down by their inner demons. Most of all, they were both visionaries with a profound and mystical feeling that there is something "more", something "beyond", something that their poetry and music allowed us to touch, if only for a brief moment.

"If my poetry aims to achieve anything, it's to deliver people from the limited ways in which they see and feel", Jim once said. And that is exactly what he and The Doors achieved. With their hauntingly beautiful music that stays with you long after "the music's over", they take us to uncharted territories. They let us "break on through to the other side", however briefly. They did indeed open the "doors of perception", doors that can never be shut again. And that is probably the true legacy of Jim Morrison and The Doors.

Celebration of the Lizard (Absolutely Live)

Jim "You know whats really weird; Los Angeles California has the best landscape and climate and all that, but New York has the grooviest people". To which the crowd goes wild. This would lead me to believe that the version in absolutely live is in New York and not the Aquarias in LA?????

Wild Child

I doubt that the song Wild Child is about Arthur Rimbaud as the subject of the song is ostensibly a young woman - the subject matter may refer to Rimbaud, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it was about Rimbaud. Tzittnan 22:35, 30 January 2007 (UTC)