Talk:Jim Jones

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[edit] Why persist in calling this a mass suicide?

The bulk of the available reputable sources on this event state that most of the people who died in the event were murdered. To call this a mass suicide, without any modification, is grossly inaccurate. To call it a mass murder/suicide would be more accurate, and would provide room to clarify that many of the people who died did not in fact commit suicide.

sign your posts and if you show some sorces maybe we can change it 24.16.180.125 (talk) 06:15, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, "the bulk of the available reputable sources" state that people drank the poison, either from cups or needleless syringes. Some needle marks were found on people, but it is not clear whether those were relief injections to speed death while they were convulsing violently after already orally taking the poison. No medical examiner found any gunshot victims in Jonetown outside of Jones, Annie Moore and maybe one other individual. In fact, none of the huge number of people there afterwards has stated anything to the contrary, except Charles Huff. Whether, for adults, given the presence of armed guards, people shouting dissenters down and mental rigors of living in Jonestown, drinking the poison was technically "murder" or "suicide" is at least debatable, though many people have strong feelings in either direction. Outside of old Soviet era propaganda (Jonestown Carnage) and John Judge conspiracy books (and perhaps Mark Lane -- shudder), no one seriously believes the CIA was involved in murdering anyone. Mosedschurte (talk) 09:03, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
No one's saying that the CIA murdered the people, Jones forced people to commit suicide, he was a control freak and wanted his way. No doubt many would have protested to killing themselves regardless of circumstances since it was a cult that was mainly focused on making the world a better place (or at least that is what most members thought).
I recently saw a history channel documentary on the subject which is why I became interested in it, it had an interview from an alleged survivor and eye witness who stated people were being forced to drink the poison or where injected with it against their will.
Either way it is certain that many children died as well, and their deaths are definitely murders.
Feyre (talk) 23:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
It's sort of a question regarding most events history labels "mass suicide", as well. For example, like most, one of the most historically well known (though we don't if its accurate per Josephus), Masada, also involved kids. They theoretically lack the capacity to consent. Moreover, the kids and women might have also died unwillingly. Then men killed them after drawing lots. A few women and children purportedly escaped.
But the term "murder suicide" as a generalized description is certainly inaccurate at Jonestown in that it describes someone killing others then committing suicide. This is definitely the case here, as no one disputes that many members did willingly take poison.
In fact, everyone else on the tape is against Miller (who argues against suicide), even after the poison is being taken. No one was found fleeing with gunshot or crossbow wounds. They'd also practiced this before, and people had taken what they were told was poison without being forced. Some also wrote suicide notes expressing their reasons.
The term "mass suicide" is often used to describe instances where multiple people commit suicide, even if it is not clear they all had the capacity to consent (or were even willing to consent).
Some children had it injected in their mouths, usually with needle-less syringes. Mosedschurte (talk) 01:20, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Beginnings

The article is too short on his early life. Maikel (talk) 23:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I added significantly more material on the formation of the Temple decades before the mass suicide (1951-1975). Regarding Jones childhood, there is quite a bit from his mother Lynetta on audio tape, but it is frankly incredibly boring to listen to, even for the most devoted of Jonestown researchers. Such as B.S. stories of animals following Jones around, his childhood pretend church services and like stories. About the most interesting thing is that his mother was a labor activist and that was probably what helped form Jones' worldview, and eventually, the Temple's worldview, but that's speculation.Mosedschurte (talk) 09:09, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Where and in what way was his mother a labor activist? I'm from the Richmond area and I find this curious. Wildhartlivie (talk) 09:41, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
I took a look in Reiterman's Raven just now, and it just said that she worked in a cannery and then other "factory" jobs, "unions eventually became her cause and she did some organizing" and was considered a "troublemaker" by other workers and management. There is more on some of the audiotapes, and I remember seeing some manuscript by her, but (hate to sound mean) she's honestly one of the most boring speakers I've ever heard. A joke like this sounds horrible on a serious subject, but my first thought 15 minutes into listening to her was "now I know why Jim was suicidal." Mosedschurte (talk) 09:53, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Interesting. Well, I don't know where a cannery would have been around here, but that doesn't mean that particular job was in this area. There was a fairly contentious union issue at the Perfect Circle Corporation in 1955, which involved the acceptance/refusal to unionize the plant by the UAW, and the use of scabs. It got the notice of the Wall Street Journal and Time magazine, which is fairly significant for a small manufacturer in Indiana. Before that time, labor relations and unions weren't much heard of around here. Just curious about it, thanks. Wildhartlivie (talk) 11:16, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

The placement of the "Other Issues" section interferes with the continuity of the article because the article jumps from telling about Jones's death in the previous section to talking about specific instances in his earlier life when it gets to the "Other Issues" section. For this reason, I propose that "Other Issues" be moved right below "Early Life," or done away with and incorporated into "Early Life." ~Anon1

[edit] Category: Self-declared Messiahs

I eliminated this because it's a common myth about the PT. In fact, it was so false (they were actually atheists) that Jones used people claiming Jones declared himself a messiah to "prove", in speeches to the Temple members, that those making those accusations were "liars" about everything. For example, Annie Moore even stated her anger at these false claims that they looked at Jim as a God (they didn't) in her suicide note. Part of the confusion here was caused by Jones' early 70s healing services to try to draw people into the Temple to convert them later to socialism. But he didn't even declare himself the messiah there, and instead, said he believed (parroting New Age theory) that an "energy" in the human body lived after death that could be reincarnated and that he was reincarnated, claiming he believed to be a re-incarnation of Lenin (mostly), and also others like Christ and Mao. But he made clear he wasn't actually them, and said people were getting "carried away with" the old reincarnation words during speeches in Jonestown. Mosedschurte (talk) 06:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Category: Communist rulers

I'm actually not sure that Jim Jones should be considered an actual "Communist ruler" (although he certainly acted like one). I mean he took his people to the middle of nowhere in Guyana, and set up the community on the ideals of Communism, it's not really like Jonestown was a mini-nation or at the very least, an an illegal sovereign nation.Uglyguy2006 (talk) 08:15, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree they weren't a completely independent state (though Jones believed them to be), but ruler doesn't just mean the head of an independent state. They were a sovereign territory in Guyana (they also didn't have to comply with many Guyanese dictates under a special Guyanese act) and Jones was undoubtedly the ruler. Actually, the Temple referred to him as the "D of the P", "Dictator of the Proletariat", but I didn't think that was worth including in the article. Mosedschurte (talk) 08:23, 26 May 2008 (UTC)