Talk:Jigsaw Killer

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[edit] Classic Horror Icon?

At the bottom of the page, where there's a list of similar Horror Icons with links to their wikipedia pages, Jigsaw is with the "Classic" characters such as Dracula, Frankenstein, and the like. I have a feeling a fanboy movied him there, since it's rather obvious he belongs with the "Modern" characters such as Hannibal Lector, and Jason Vorhees, since Jigsaw is really a 21st century horror icon and not really one of the great classics. Somebody want to confirm/change this for me? I'm not 100% sure how to change that template.

Also, Chucky, Ghostface, and Freddy Krueger should also be moved into the Modern Horror Icons, since they were spawned in the 1980s and 1990s. I think what determines whether something is "classic" or not is based on it's age [Alfred Hitchock's Psycho Killer being the youngest Classic Horror Icon [1950s?] and everyone else coming before that. It seems the judgement between which characters were "Classic" or "Modern" was made by a fanboy, who simply took the killers he liked and made them Classic. I'm sure Leatherface would be ashamed of this biased judgement. ARBlackwood 02:14, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm sure when Leatherface uses his laptop and looks up his article on Wikipedia he'd be devastated at this unfair judgement. Then he'd run around hooting and hollering, carve up the door with his chainsaw only to have Drayton Sawyer come in and scream, "You damn fool! Look what you did to the door!"--CyberGhostface 02:48, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
They are in the "Modern". The "Modern" title sits in the middle of two rows. If we were to line them up it would be adjacent to them, but that would make for a very long table. Everyone from "The Creature" to "The Wolf Man" are in Classic, and everyone from "Norman Bates" to "Jason Voorhees" is in the Modern. There are 4 row, 2 rows for each category. We had to break them up because they were too long. Bignole 02:40, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
I see it has been fixed. Good work wikipedians! ARBlackwood 23:20, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Victims

I removed the victims section. It seemed sloppy and tacked on. I think it'd be better suited for the Saw movie pages than Jigsaw's.--CyberGhostface 14:52, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] life before death

shud there be something about his life before jigsaw? how he was a toy maker and his trademark doll (called billy) is what he made? id add it myself but im lazy :D—Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.195.201.169 (talk • contribs)

[edit] Morality

I'm sick and tired of this "Not really a serial killer" thing. He poisons people and refuses to give them antidote, HELLO, felony murder? He cuts the throat of a police officer (who barely survives), and kills another with a load of shotguns. But no, "not really a serial killer". He poisons someone who is forced to (try to) kill a family, chains another to a pipe and never lets him go because he missed one obscure unknown chance to live... Someone needs to change that part. // Gargaj 19:23, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

No one's excusing his actions. No one has said he's a nice person. But the film has referred to the fact several times that he is not a serial killer in the traditional sense. If you can't see that, that's your problem.--CyberGhostface 00:25, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
That's an opinion shared by a few sympathetic characters, including Jigsaw himself, a specific point of view. It would probably not be the point of view of a person in law enforcement. Looking at the serial killer page, he fits the profile of a highly organized, mission oriented serial killer. He has killed much more than three people, and playing and toying with them doesn't really change that he was the one who killed them. It's not a moral thing, it's a NPOV thing. - Xtreme680 14:29, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
I removed the line.--CyberGhostface 20:00, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

The only reason it's says "not really a seral killer" is because jigsaw himself believes that he is not a serial killer. He belives he never killed anyone. Not that this is true it is just what he believes....and it is his movie. UnReaL 21:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC)UnReaLUnReaL 21:14, 28 August 2006 (UTC) (Christina)

There's also a line in the first film by Lawrence Gordon where he states a similar hypothesis.--CyberGhostface 22:16, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Yo it's just a movie guys get over with it...you know Saw 2 is all bullshit...and I don't know about Saw 3...

Jigsaw, in technicality, is not serial killer. He sets the people up in life or death situations. It is up to the person to decide whether they can bear X-amount of pain in order to save their own lives. Also, he states everything that a person needs to know in order to live. Take, for example, Obi in the furnace. Jigsaw said that the only way out of Hell is through the devil. Had Obi actually looked around the inside of the furnace, he would have seen the emergency shut-off valve. But no, none of the people ever decide to think about the approach, just the ending. The only one that Jigsaw is convictable of killing is the guy in the beginning of Saw III b/c of the bomb in the room. All other deaths are at fault b/c the victim(for lack of a better word), is to scared to inflict pain upon themselves to live. -posted by A Really Analytical Movie Lover 7 Oct. 2006

If you put someone in a a death trap that will kill them if they don't do something, and it kills them, its your fault. Besides, with the exception of Amanda most of his victims had to mutilate their bodies to survive. --DrBat 14:03, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Besides that, given that the traps involve self-mutilation he's still guilty of assault and battery by proxy and attempted murder, even if the victim survives. Iceberg3k 11:12, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
He hasn't killed anyone (with the obvious exception of his traps), but he has TRIED. He attempted to slash Tapp's throat. Also, he didn't even give Jeff (from the first movie) an escape plan, just said he was part of an experiment of something much bigger than him or something like that... JackOfHearts 05:51, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
I think it all depends on your point of view, and No: I don't believe that Jigsaw perfectly fits the discription of a serial killer. But Yes: Because his actions have interfered with people's lives (and resulted in their deaths), he would be considered a serial killer. The only difference between Jigsaw and other serial killers is that the others have the one major characteristic that actually makes them a killer: the intent of killing their victims. Jigsaw has never intended to kill his victims. Jigsaw views the actual "kill" as a failure on his victim's part, and that is actually an arguable point because of the intentions that he has (or more literally, doesn't have). --Majinvegeta 22:52, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
The reason it says that, as has been mentioned, is because Jigsaw himself says he isn't one, and so does Lawrence. The traps that killed people, such as that bomb one - were made by Amanda, and if you remember, Jigsaw did not condone that, because then they are just victims. Yes, he did try to kill Tapp, and yes, he almost killed Jeff, but he didn't, and so he couldn't be prosecuted for murder there, and that is what the topic is about, no? Calvin 15:48, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image

Shouldn't the image of him, at least in the lead, be with his mask? - A Link to the Past (talk) 08:41, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Do you mean the pig mask? Thats down later in the article.--CyberGhostface 18:40, 8 October 2006 (UTC)
No, rather, I mean the puppet. - A Link to the Past (talk) 19:07, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
There's already an image of the puppet below as well, although it's a little grainy...JackOfHearts 23:34, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
Its supposed to be grainy...its based off a poster from Saw and thats the feeling they were trying to convey.--CyberGhostface 19:57, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I meant to say that it should be in the lead in place of the picture of him, I'd say that's what people most identity Jigsaw Killer with. - A Link to the Past (talk) 00:44, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, this is more or less an article focusing on him (John Kramer),so I think the picture of him should be the head display pic. If it were an article about the puppet (Which would be awesome), Billy, or whatever his name is, then yes, I would suggest putting the pic of the puppet...JackOfHearts 01:06, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the main image show feature jigsaw in his pig mask - the image is a spoiler!. Will Tingle 01:06, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

No one can verify that he ever wore the pigmask. The only time we some any take off the mask is when Amanda takes it off, and since we know that Amanda has been working with him since before he every kidnapped Adam and Gordon, we don't know for sure if he ever wore the mask. John Kramer is Jigsaw, the image should be John Kramer. If people come to this page and don't know that John Kramer is Jigsaw, then that's just tough luck. Wikipedia is not censored, even for those that don't want to ruin movies for themselves by accidentally clicking something they have no business clicking till they watch the film.  BIGNOLE   (Question?)  (What I do) 
There were two pig masks in the lair, so I'd think that he probably wore it at least once. Although I agree that Jigsaw's main pic is better suited as him unmasked.--CyberGhostface 03:26, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A few questions

When is it revealed that the puppet is named "Billy", out of curiosity? And how did you know it was Amanda's former drug dealer who was in the cell with her? JackOfHearts 03:09, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

I think John worked at a toy factory and Billy was one of his puppets...Billy has been the name referred to by the creators on the DVD. I think its more of an injoke than anything else, but it its legit.
As for Amanda and her drug dealer...I don't know, I'm not the one who added it. My best guess is that its explained on one of the documentaries on the Saw DVD.--CyberGhostface 19:59, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jigs

Saying that Jigsaw is 'affectionately called Jigs' is not only innaccurate (what fans have said that? I've seen maybe one or two) fancruft, POV and irrevelant. I'm sure someone right now is calling Leatherface "Leathypoo" but I don't see anyone adding bullshit like that to the article...--CyberGhostface 20:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Splitting the Article

I think the traps shouldn't be on this page, but rather have their own article, named something like "List of Traps in the Saw Series." In my opinion, they are a little off-topic; however, mentioning one or two traps to show his "genius" is OK. Anyone agree? SuperDT 02:13, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree and I'll try splitting it today if I can.--CyberGhostface 15:24, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Done. List of Saw Traps I've also modified the Saw template a bit.--CyberGhostface 15:36, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Influences?

Are there any serial killers similar to Jigsaw? If so, they should be put in the article. SuperDT 02:13, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Not that I'm aware of.--CyberGhostface 15:24, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

Can I add that the serial killer in the Italian movie called The Bloodstained Shadow (Solamente Nero) wears a black cloak very similar to Jigsaw's? Avanze 11:13, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I definitely think I heard about a killer that Jigsaw was based off of, that killer lived in some southern state like Kentucky or something. Majin Hannibal Lecter

yes i belive there was a killer that Jigsaw was based off of. He was never caught and a differece between the two were that this killer would pick up any random person (man, women, child) and place them in elaberate puzzles.

...and you heard this where?--CyberGhostface 00:53, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

http://www.crimelibrary.com/serial_killers/notorious/serial_killer_movies/5.html (sorry dont know how to make smaller links) in crime library it says he wasnt excatly based on any killer. This is just my opinion, but i think some of Jigsaw influence (mostly how he tortured people) comes from H.H. holmes, Holmes did built a hotel with torture equipments like gas chambers and other torture devices. Korn1128

[edit] Traps section?

In the Jigsaw's apprentice paragraph it states "For more details, see the Traps section". I think it should be specified that Traps is an actual Wikipedia article and the text should be linked to it. When i first read it I thought that Traps was a paragraph in this article and that it had been removed because I couldn't find it. --XezzeX 23:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

It was removed, but I'll modify it if it hasn't been already.--CyberGhostface 00:20, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article title

Should the article's title remain as it is, or should it perhaps be renamed to The Jigsaw Killer? PlatformerMastah 18:39, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

The title maybe, but not the actual page name.--CyberGhostface 01:32, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What more can be added?

Someone wants this article expanded, but what more can be added, at least until the third movie comes out? JackOfHearts 01:02, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I added the "expanded" just so people would be encouraged to seek out some more sources for information about Jigsaw (i.e. The writer's concept of him..just more details) Bignole 01:04, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Final Test

I beleive that the Final Test does not belong on Jigsaw's page... but rather Saw's page. I would do it but i thought it would be better to get other's opinion first...

Why? It is afterall his last test, an important part of Jigsaw's history. Why would you put it on the page for Saw? The first movie has next to nothing to do with the final test. JackOfHearts 00:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Abandoned Wilson Steel Warehouse

It lists that as his location, but is that really accurate? I thought it had changed since the second film to some other abandoned warehouse...

Nope, it's the same warehouse. SuperDT 20:53, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
If that were so, how is it possible that Rigg and Kerry wouldn't think to return following the events of Saw 2? The warehouse in the third one had one level, and had a large room where Jigsaw's equipment layed, and another larger section where Jeff went through his tests... The warehouse in the second didn't seem the same as the third one. And what about the one from the first one? JackOfHearts 00:26, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Seeing one room, or one angle from the outside of a building, doesn't denote how large it actually could be, or what other buildings may or may not be attached to it. Also, his location shouldn't be the place where his victims are, but the place where he stays. Thus, it should be the city in which he resides, because he kind of moves from place to place. It's clear he isn't in the same warehouse he was in during Saw II as he is in during Saw III. So, if you know the city that he is located it use that; until then I'm removing the entire section till it can be properly filled. Bignole 03:59, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Victims?

I think that this is up for debate if Jigsaw's "victims" are actually victims. I think the morality of this depends on the point of view because I wouldn't consider Johns "victims" as victims. He is the instrument of their deaths, but essentially......yes, Jigsaw's right, they do kill themselves. I heard him refer to them as "Subjects" in Saw II, and I think that would be a better term to use for them. Thoughts?

First off, I'm a big Jigsaw fan myself, but we can't change the article to fit our personal opinions (as you did in your recent edit). I think its fine the way it is; it describes exactly what Jigsaw does (I.E. place people in traps that lead to their deaths unless they are clever enough to escape, sometimes having to commit mutilation) but in Jigsaw's favor, we include why he thinks the way he does and why to him his motives are justified. Saying that he makes 'brilliant' traps and that its debatable that he's a killer shouldn't be there.
Also, I removed your line about John's attempted suicide as thats brought up later in the same section.--CyberGhostface 14:50, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Whole article is a spoiler

This entire article is a spoiler (spoils the first Saw movie) - especially the infobox picture. I'm pretty sure that's against the rules, so I've moved it (along with the actor's name). ··gracefool |☺ 21:53, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

What rules does it break? The one that says Wikipedia contains spoilers? I mean if the movie was recent I might agree (although it is stupid to look at a Wikipedia article if you don't want to be spoiled) but its two to three years old now.--CyberGhostface 22:02, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dead

Jigsaw may be dead, he may be alive, but the third film did not show him as "dead". He was definitely dying, but he didn't pass away yet. For all we know Jeff could do something to prolong his life long enough to save his daughter. All of this is irrelevant as the character is fictional. Per MOS for writing about fiction, you do not treat fictional characters like real people, they do not get biographies on their life.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 01:54, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible Name Change?

I was just wondering if "Jigsaw killer" is the best name for this page. I mean, What about: John "Jigsaw" Kramer, or something; because technically speaking "Jigsaw" in Saw 2 and 3 is actually 2 people, Amanda and John (even though John was the original). --Majinvegeta 04:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Actually, she helped in 1-3, remember she was really the one in the pig mask that grabbed Gordon and the other guy. Anyway, she only helped, and was never "Jigsaw". She tried to be him, but she couldn't live up to what he wanted; she even cheated in her own games.  BIGNOLE  (Contact me) 11:26, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I would disagree with changing it.
For one thing...Amanda. She was NEVER referred to as Jigsaw at all in the series. She helped Jigsaw, and worked for him and tried becoming his apprentice, but she never took on his mantle or ever went under that name. If John were to die and for the next couple of films it was her and her alone going under the Jigsaw moniker I'd agree. But it wasn't.
Although John doesn't care for the name, it IS the name he is most used by. In interviews, with his action figure and even in the film he is largely referred to as Jigsaw. Its not like Francis Dolarhyde being called the Tooth Fairy. John Kramer, for all intents and purposes, is Jigsaw.
Another point of interest: In A Series of Unfortunate Events there was a villain called the Hook-Handed Man. I don't recall him ever calling himself that, it was mostly the author due to the hooks he had. In a later story, his name was revealed. There was some discussion to change it to the real name, but in the end, the original article was kept, mainly because that's the name he's most known by.--CyberGhostface 20:56, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Repetition

There seems to be some unnecessary repetition about the jigsaw-shaped piece of flesh taken from the victims, at the end of the section called Jigsaw, and through the majority of Name origin. Jack Of Hearts | Miss A Turn 01:29, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] He Doesn't Call Himself Jigsaw?

I'm just wondering if that should be called into question in the article. In the first film, when Adam finds the picture of Gordon's family gagged in his wallet, the picture is signed with a Jigsaw symbol. This seems to contradict Jigsaw's claim he doesn't refer to himself as such. The Clawed One 00:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Did you see the second film? This is brought up. Matthews asks Jigsaw about the name, and Jigsaw responds that puzzle piece is supposed to represent the piece that people are missing. The name itself was coined by the media.--CyberGhostface 02:29, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I've seen all 3 films, several times, thank you, that's why I brought up the issue. Because he signed the picture with a Jigsaw piece, showing he himself at least accepts the name. You did nothing to answer my question. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by The Clawed One (talk • contribs) 03:32, 15 May 2007 (UTC).
Maybe you aren't listening then. Using a puzzle piece as a signature does not mean that he endorses the name Jigsaw. The REASON why he uses the puzzle pieces is to symbolize the pieces people are missing. It DOES not mean that he calls himself Jigsaw...that is something the media coined. And making speculative theories on the article saying "He uses a puzzle piece for a signature, thus saying that he endorses the name counts as original research. Understand?--CyberGhostface 20:30, 15 May 2007 (UTC)
So, signing my name "Adrian" does not mean I call myself Adrian? As stated, I've seen the films, I know why he cut out the pieces, the whole "survival instinct" thing the subjects were missing. And I never added anything about this to the article, so I don't know why you're mad at me. I'm just saying that it seems like he does at least embrace the name somewhat: he may not have started calling himself that, but it seems like he does now. In the future, when someone brings up something for discussion, please try not to be so condescending about the matter. The Clawed One 04:55, 16 May 2007 (UTC)
Jigsaw never signed his name 'Jigsaw'. He used a puzzle piece as his signature. Not the same thing as you signing your name Adrian and that not being your real name. Lets say I use a pumpkin to sign my name because I like the symbol, and the papers call me "The Pumpkinhead Killer" and pretty soon its accepted that I'm to be called "Pumpkinhead". If I were to say "I don't encourage that name" thats not me being contradictory, even if I did use the pumpkin a signature piece. And he's never used the name in any of the films himself. I've never gotten the impression that he hates the name, but he's always gone by John.
As for me being condescending and/or rude, I tried being relatively civil in my original post where I was trying to be helpful in explaining about Jigsaw's signature.I answered your question to the best of my abilities, and it WAS the answer to your question, and you got rather snippy at me with "You did nothing to answer my question". Thats why I was a bit aggravated in the following reply.--CyberGhostface 22:33, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Jigsawkiller.jpg

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[edit] Original research

Saw IV fills in more of Jigsaw's backstory, contradicting much of what was revealed in Saw: Rebirth.

This line is disputed whether this is WP:NOR or not. I think it reaches too far in making an original conclusion based on interpreting the stories. I tried rewording it to simply say "It's a different story" but CyberGhostface disagrees. Starting topic here so that the WP:THIRD can give his/her input. hbdragon88 02:47, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Again, I don't see how it counts as original research. The two sources discussed are both reliable (one is an officially licensed comicbook, the other is a film) and they both contradict each other. Saying "It tells a different story" and "It contradicts Rebirth" are both pretty much the same thing except the latter is more specific. It would be original research if someone attempted to explain the continuity error and make their own hypothesis to fit the two together. Stating that the second released work contradicts the continuity of the first is simple fact.--CyberGhostface 03:23, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
But an alternate storyline doesn't necessarily contradict the first. It could be just that; that doesn't make it contradictory. P.S thanks for explaining the letter on the Amanda Young article. hbdragon88 19:11, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I saw this on the "third opinion" page. If the existence of the contradictions requires interpretation by the viewer then it can be considered 'original research.' Not all viewers will interpret the same way. If no interpretation is needed to determine that there are contradictions then it is not original research. So for you 'Saw' students you might want to refer to things like 'Star Wars' to see how these things are settled, since that license crosses film, books, comics, etc. and has similar issues. Rob Banzai 19:48, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I guess its not worth arguing about anymore. I'll say that Saw IV had a different history than Rebirth's.--CyberGhostface 20:15, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Alright, it now says "Saw IV fills in more of Jigsaw's backstory, telling a different story than what was revealed in Rebirth."--CyberGhostface 20:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Jigsawonbedwithwax.PNG

Image:Jigsawonbedwithwax.PNG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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[edit] Hoffman

Nothing in the Saw series indicates that Hoffman is the 2nd or 1st apprentice —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nico92400 (talk • contribs) 09:44, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

It seems pretty clear at the end of Saw IV. That's not to say that they're going to pull the rug from under the fans in V, but considering he was working with Amanda and Jigsaw during the events of III at least and were helping them with the traps it seems pretty clear that he is. Of course, maybe he's poisoned like Zep, but there's nothing to indicate that.--CyberGhostface (talk) 15:27, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Was just thinking that it seems odd calling Amanda the 1st and Hoffman the 2nd as there's no definitive proof that Hoffman was recruited 2nd. Perhaps I'm misreading it but maybe they should just be called apprentices.Agent452 (talk) 16:32, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Change it if you want.--CyberGhostface (talk) 17:01, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jonathan Kramer or John Kramer?

At the top, it says he's introduced as Jonathan Kramer. (Is that accurate?) Elsewhere in the film series, and indeed, the article, he's listed as John Kramer. John and Jonathan are different names, with "Jon" being the abbreviation of Jonathan... Should this be changed to "John?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 140.251.212.89 (talk) 15:12, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

In an interview, Tobin Bell said his full name is Johnathan Kramer.--CyberGhostface (talk) 15:51, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I think it's stated by one of the characters in the fourth movie as well. --VorangorTheDemon (talk) 04:08, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
The credits of all four movies have always listed the character as "John/Jigsaw," as do the production notes on the Lions Gate website, so why would one interview with an actor be enough to retcon what the movies have established? I could understand it if Leigh Whannell or somebody involved with the writing process said his real name was Jonathan, but as far as I know, Tobin Bell and Wikipedia are the only references to that name. MattSutton1 (talk) 16:59, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Johnathan instead of John is hardly a 'retcon'. Its not a drastic change that contradicts the films.--CyberGhostface (talk) 20:29, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, maybe I misspoke called it a retcon. I actually don't really think it's all that big a deal if "John" was short for "Jonathan." I just don't think "Jonathan" should be accepted as canon unless it's stated in one of the movies. MattSutton1 (talk) 21:08, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
If you want to change it, go ahead. Maybe Tobin's take could be mentioned in his respective section. --CyberGhostface (talk) 21:52, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tobin Bell Section

Tobin Bell was quoted without a reference. With no citation, how is one to know that he really said those things? Deleted. Kind regards, Yeldarb68 (talk) 17:31, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Johnkramersawii.PNG

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BetacommandBot (talk) 22:12, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New Picture?

I think that we should put a new picture of John up. The one where he is hooded just doesn't seem like Jigsaw to me. Sure, he wears it for 5 minutes in Saw, and in Saw 2 he wears it, but he doesn't wear the hood, but 95% of the time you see him he is in normal clothes (even though thats mostly in flashbacks). I'm just saying maybe we can find a different picture of Jigsaw. Moenbro (talk) 19:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I think wearing the hood is still representative of Jigsaw even if he's not wearing it all the time. Obviously he's not going to be wearing it when he's on his deathbed or in Pre-Jigsaw flashbacks but its still for the most part what he's most recognized by. (And although this is WP:CRYSTAL on my part, he'll probably wear the cloak in future flashbacks)--CyberGhostface (talk) 20:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Rigg?

Should Rigg be added to the list of Jigsaw's relationships? The head detective in IV states that Rigg was being "recruited" by Jigsaw as a successor. --VorangorTheDemon (talk) 21:41, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

I think that was his personal guess, and perhaps if Rigg was successful he might have been Jigsaw's protege, but it was never made clear if that was Jigsaw's initial intentions.--CyberGhostface (talk) 21:50, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Jigsaws smart enough to know that Rigg wouldn't go for that. He isn't the type who could help kill people or set them 'free'.Darkwarriorblake (talk) 21:51, 3 February 2008 (UTC)