Talk:Jiaogulan

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[edit] Taxobox

This article needs a taxobox. Badagnani 23:01, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Done! Melchoir 01:39, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of speculation/conjecture

The following sentence under the "Alternate names" section contains speculation (in boldface):

One U.S.-based company markets jiaogulan under the name "Panta," but this name does not seem to be derived from any Asian language; instead, the name most likely comes from the plant's Latin name.

Such unsourced conjecture doesn't belong in an encyclopedia article; it constitutes original research which is prohibited by policy. I have reverted it twice now, and it keeps coming back. If there exists a source, then the article should state that the source is doing the speculating, not the article. -Amatulic 00:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

More to the point, the fact that one non-notable U.S-based company markets Jiaogulan under some name is largely irrelevant to this article. I am beginning to consider the re-addition of this material either vandalism or a conflict of interest. Please justify its inclusion here before adding it back. =Axlq 22:46, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I take strong offense that the implication that I made any edit at Wikipedia, ever, due to a conflict of interest. You have really gone too far with this comment, and need to apologize for it immediately. I added the product names because they are common ones and use a latinized name similar to the use of "goji" for the Chinese wolfberry. This is strictly so that our users will know that these brand names are actually what is called "jiaogulan" in Chinese. You did revert four times, then threatened me. That was wrong. I suppose you got carried away, however, so please give me a reason why I should not report you for 4RR. Best, Badagnani 22:58, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
Okay, some points:
  • If offending you was what it took to engage you in actual discussion, then it served its purpose. Please accept my apology for the ruse.
  • Repeated adding unsourced conjecture, and text that misrepresents cited sources, without explaining why in the edit summary, qualifies as tendentious editing, and like vandalism its reversion is exempt from WP:3RR. I attempted to engage you in discussion but instead you kept reverting my edits (which I explained) without explanation of your own. I did not get carried away, I am attempting to protect the integrity of an article.
  • I apologize for my failure to assume good faith here, but your behavior led me there after you continued your reversions after my polite request on your talk page.
  • The common product name I see all over the place is "Jiaogulan". If you can find a source (other than the Panta company itself) saying it's commonly known as "Panta" then please add it, and I will cease deleting what I see as a non-notable and irrelevant addition to the article.
  • Is there more than one brand name? If so, those should be mentioned instead of singling one out in particular.
  • The text you keep adding back contains citations that don't support the claim.
  • The text you keep adding back contains conjecture that doesn't belong on Wikipedia, as stated in the comment at the beginning of this section.
Now, do you understand why I have a problem with this text? Your statement above doesn't make a convincing argument for inclusion. =Axlq 23:11, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

There is no excuse for a troll. Badagnani 23:28, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

The answer is, there were two brand names listed: Panta and Penta. Both are widely available and their names are confusing, hence the explanation for our readers that they are the same as jiaogulan on the page. I don't agree at all with your reasoning above and your tone remains offensive. Your blanking of sourced text is even worse, and even worse than that is your grandiose notion that you are "defending" the article and are thus exempt from 4RR, which you just did. Blanking sourced text, which you did, is very bad! Badagnani 23:30, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

My tone may be harsh but at least I have remained civil. Sorry for my tone; I took offense at your behavior that I considered tendentious. I will excuse your name-calling because I know I have upset you.
Thank you for the explanation, but it still doesn't establish:
  • That these are widely-known names.
  • That the companies marketing Jiaogulan under these names (are there two companies?) are notable. Honestly, most of the U.S. marketing I see simply uses the name Jiaogulan.
  • That any verifiable sources acknowledge that either of the two names are how Jiaogulan is commonly known in the U.S.
I've done some googling, and I'm not seeing anything that passes Wikipedia:Notability. Are these names marketed by a notable company? (For example, Coca-cola is trying to make a sweetener called Rebiania out of the stevia plant; such a company's interest in an herb is notable enough to include in that article.)
Can you propose some alternative text here on this talk page? I'm certainly willing to consider anything that makes the article useful, as long as it contains no conjecture or misrepresented sources. I didn't blank sourced text: the text originally cited two sources, one of which I have that doesn't mention either brand name, and the other was an academic Chinese journal which is unlikely to mention a U.S. brand name. =Axlq 23:43, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

You're wrong: 101,000 287,000. Those names are massively documented and widely disseminated, and deserve disambiguation in our article. There was no name-calling; what you did, then admitted, was something called trolling. Badagnani 23:48, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, from my point of view, you were the one trolling with repeated re-addition of text that misrepresented the sources cited in it, and failing to use edit summaries to explain yourself.
Since when do google hits confer notability for the purposes of Wikipedia?
I ask again, can you propose some text? I am trying to be constructive. How about this:

Jiaogulan tea is also marketed in the United States by the trade names Panta tea or Penta tea, depending on the supplier.

That's a verifiable statement that wouldn't even require citation. And, that statement makes it clear that the brand names refer to the tea, not the plant itself or other products. What do you think? =Axlq 00:03, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

It is correct that the word "Panta" doesn't refer to the plant (though it is likely derived from the Latin name, as is "Penta"), as the recipe includes toasted rice and possibly also other ingredients. Panta Tea is notable in that it was on the market for years (possibly 10 years or more) before the jiaogulan craze hit the Western world. Its name, "Panta," is notable in that it's well known among "natural health" consumers and represents a likely latinization of a plant which has a cumbersome name in both Chinese and Latin (similar to the use of "goji" as a marketing term for the Chinese wolfberry (Lycium barbarum). Badagnani 00:14, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Hm, fascinating. I'm American myself, and I knew of jiaogulan by the name jiaogulan; the first time I ever saw "Panta" or "Penta" was right here in this article. My book by Blumert and Liu (which was cited in the text I deleted) doesn't mention either name.
There's a craze? Except for my Chinese friends, nobody else I have met (at work or at liesure) has heard of this herb, and I tell many people because they ask me what's that stuff I bring to work every day to drink for lunch. Even my spouse (native Asian) hadn't heard of it until an herbalist introduced it to us.
Yes, obviously Penta and Panta are derivations from the Latin name, but I don't think we need to state that. Adding that factoid constitutes original research; let others reach the conclusion on their own.
I think your assertion of notability may be worth including if a source could be found to confirm it. Otherwise it should be enough to mention the two names and leave it at that.
Can you suggest any improvement to the statement I proposed above, or should we just add it to the article? Again, I apologize for my earlier tone; I was just getting very frustrated with you! I will note that we have gotten along in the past, back when I added all those names in other languages.[1]
=Axlq 00:36, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tea

Based on my searching, the availability of this herb appears to be as a tea, although the article doesn't mention its use as a tea. So I added the categories Tea and Chinese Tea (and after trying this stuff, I must say it's probably the tastiest tea I know). I also removed the category Japanese Ingredients, because although it seems to be an ingredient sometimes, it doesn't appear to be notable or widely used in Japanese cuisine. -Amatulic 01:48, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Good citations needed

Some of the citations in this article are atrocious. They give only an author and article title. There is no information about the publication, journal name, date, etc. Surely we can do better than this. I can't find some of the citations (like "Liu et al") probably because the original paper was written in Chinese. As given in this article, the citations are unverifiable. =Axlq 19:43, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Literal meaning of "jiaogulan"

I understand that the Wiktionary entries for the Chinese characters don't seem to support the translation "twisting vine orchid" for "jiaogulan". That translation came from p.12 of the book by Blumert and Liu cited in the references. My spouse (native Chinese speaker) also confirms that "lan" can mean "orchid". Maybe the Wiktionary definition needs changing? =Axlq 00:46, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

There are a lot of examples in Chinese of "sound borrowing," and it gets complicated. If Wiktionary is to be trusted (and it often isn't) the "lan" you added ("蓝") seems to refer to a variety of indigo, or the color blue (then again, sometimes in Chinese the word for "blue" can also mean "green" (as in 青). The simplified character for "orchid" is 兰, as in "Gailan" (Chinese broccoli) 芥兰, literally "mustard orchid." Badagnani 00:52, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
All I know right now is, the book in front of me translates "jiaogulan" as "twisting vine orchid". So either that source is wrong (possibly), or Wiktionary is wrong, or the Chinese character used in the lead section of this article is wrong. I don't know which. The native Chinese speaker/reader available to me is asleep at the moment; I'll talk to her about it later. =Axlq 00:57, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
Apparently collard greens translates as 羽衣甘蓝 (yuyi ganlan). Badagnani 00:59, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
The interwiki link you just added also uses the characters the lead uses, so those characters are likely correct. Maybe 蓝 is a general suffix put on names of some green plants? I note just plain "broccoli" uses 蓝 as the final character too. =Axlq 01:06, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
I think you're exactly right. Interesting that the family Cucurbitaceae links to zh:葫芦科, which means "gourd family" (葫芦科). Badagnani 01:10, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Medical indication and possible dangers

"Studies have found it increases the activities of macrophages, T lymphocytes and natural killer cells and that it acts as a tumor inhibitor.[2]"

If so then it would not be recommended for people who suffer from a autoimmune disease.
And, or take drugs who surpress the overactive immune response, See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoimmunity http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_autoimmune_diseases
That's speculation. It would be nice to see a real source that said something one way or another about the interaction between jiaogulan and autoimmune disease. ~Amatulić (talk) 21:20, 24 April 2008 (UTC)