Talk:JFK (film)

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[edit] Garrison Played the Shaw Trial Judge - NOT Earl Warren

It was erroneously stated that Garrison appeared as Ealr warren in this movie. He did not. he actually appears as the judge in the Shaw trial. I have corrected this.

According to the IMDB he did in fact play Warren. I have changed it back. Count Ringworm 13:19, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Garrison plays Warren, and can be seen fairly early in the film interviewing Jack Ruby in jailKimwell (talk) 00:44, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Added Content

I added several paragraphs articulating possible criticisms of the movie in the second section. I'm not sure whether these additions are compatible with the NPOV policy. I would welcome a second opinion on this matter. (Dkostic 23:22, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC))

  • From what I saw the page looks fine. Anyway, I took out the paragraph expressing confusion about Oswald switching politics. I don't think that's an unexplained continuity error- I think Stone was heavily implying, if not outright saying, that Oswald was an anti-Communist who faked Communist sympathies for the purposes of making the Kennedy assassination look like it was done by a radical as opposed to the government. CanadianCaesar 8 July 2005 05:54 (UTC)
I've also edited somewhat. I've retained the relevant facts as presented, but I can't agree that Garrison's rejection of FBI ballistic evidence (regardless of the merits of his argument) is logically inconsistent with his acceptance of FBI evidence about the difficulty of placing three accurate shots in such quick succession. Not that the case as presented was POV. It just didn't make much sense.
An argument could be made that Garrison was deliberately trying to employ false logic, ie
a) The FBI is biased towards the lone gunman theory (premise)
b) The FBI wanted to make the shots if at all possible (fact)
c) If anyone could make the shots, it's the FBI (premise)
d) the FBI couldn't make the shots (fact)
e) therefore, there was more than one gunman (false conclusion based on a and c, unproven).
However, the critism presented did not attempt to present such an argument. It seemed only to suggest that Garrison's rejection of one part of the FBI's evidence as potentially tainted means that he should then reject all their evidence, regardless of whether it supports their bias or not. That doesn't make sense to me.
If the FBI had been arguing against the theory of a lone gunman firing three shots from the Texas School Book Depository, and if one was to reject their ballistics evidence as tainted against the "magic bullet" aspect of that theory, then it would be consistent to reject their sharpshooter evidence on the same grounds (ie, they could have made the shots if they'd really tried).
However, Garrison contended that the FBI's evidence might be tainted in the interests of promoting the lone gunman theory. If that contention was correct, then it would obviously be in the FBI's interest to show that those shots could be so placed. Their failure to do does somewhat support the opposing contention, that the fatal shot did not come from that building, regardless of their alleged bias. (It doesn't actually prove anything, of course.)
It does not follow that rejecting one part of the FBI's evidence as potentially biased in favour of one version of events means that Garrison should then reject another, unrelated part of their evidence when it apparently supports the opposing version.
Unfortunately, we're now left with an article which alleges inconsistencies, without saying what they actually are. TheMadBaron 21:52, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Peter Jennings

I just saw a great show on the History Channel by Peter Jennings that went through the film piece by piece and proved most of the film's portrayal as utterly baseless. It would be great if someone could add a little more about this - I haven't seen the film myself, so I don't feel qualified to make any more contribution than the one liner I put in - in the controversy section.

I agree, the History channel has a show as well. This movie is a farce, and it's claims should be fully exposed in this article to avoid confusion and stop the conspiracy nonsense.Strunke 02:06, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
I think this is covered with the link to this website under the Historical Inaccuracies section. It does a pretty amazing job exposing where the film gets it wrong. --J.D. 13:31, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Production History

I've started working on a detailed history of the film's production. Unless otherwise stated, all quotes come from Stone: A Biography of Oliver Stone by James Riordan. Let me know how it sounds and if you have suggestions, changes, etc. There is more to come. J.D. 01:25, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Dallas in Wonderland"

One reviewer (Washington Post, 1991) called it that. Can somebody say who? Trekphiler 03:39, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Yep. Washington Post national security correspondent George Lardner. Count Ringworm 20:49, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Wayne Knight's Character"

Is listed here: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001431/ (imdb) as "Numa Bertel", Not Neuman. Although it clearly DOES sound like "Newman" in the film. So, the assertion that he is called Newman in both films is essentially mis-informed.

[edit] Trivia Section

In order to get this article in shape for a possible GA status, I've removed the Trivia section as most of the points really don't fit anywhere else in the article and don't seem to merit inclusion but I am posting it here in the Talk section in case someone can find a way to make these points fit. Count Ringworm 20:46, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Trivia

  • Of several films featuring both Walter Matthau (Senator Long) and Jack Lemmon (Jack Martin), JFK is the only one in which they do not share a scene.
  • The film makes extensive use of suggestive imagery. In one scene, a close-up of the "Umbrella Man" is replaced by Tommy Lee Jones as Clay Shaw—only to vanish a second or two later. Some frames have apparently been doctored to contain images of Presidents Reagan and Bush. The film contains a number of images of skulls, often glimpsed for just a few frames. One repeated shot of the Clay Shaw character, sitting against a green background and waving to someone, has a large skull in the background. [1]
  • Gary Oldman, who played Lee Harvey Oswald, also voiced Oswald in the 1992 mini-series Who Was Lee Harvey Oswald?.
  • There are numerous references to William Shakespeare and Julius Caesar, including:
    • John F. Kennedy is compared to Caesar with the government ready to assassinate him by Mr. X. Later, he is compared to Caesar in Garrison's closing summation.
    • Garrison quotes Hamlet, "One may smile, and smile, and be a villain" (Act I, Scene V).
    • Garrison quotes Caesar's father-in-law Lucius Calpurnius Piso Caesoninus, "Let justice be done though the heavens fall (Fiat justitia ruat caelum)".
    • The quote in the epilogue, "What is past is prologue" is from The Tempest (Act II, Scene I).
    • David W Ferrie quotes Shakespeare by saying "Oh what deady web we weave when we practice to deceive"
  • Oliver Stone says that the character of Jim Garrison in the film is partly based on the real Jim Garrison and partly used as a composite character for presenting various conspiracy theories.

[edit] Cast

As there is no "Cast" section, I'm proposing the following - if someone wouldn't mind adding it to the more appropriate place. I was thinking after "Casting", but couldn't make up my mind. SkierRMH 09:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cast (in credits order)

I've since integrated this information back into the article. Count Ringworm 19:27, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA comment

All of the images need fair use rationales or the article will be quick-failed. --Nehrams2020 07:30, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Done. Count Ringworm 13:42, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA review

One of my favourite films, but I do wonder why there's barely anything on the plot? A concise plot description is needed. I mean it's 3 hours, there's plenty to write out. Alientraveller 13:31, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

True. Although, there is something to be said about being concise. --Count Ringworm 13:46, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

It's just I'd like something to describe what happens in the film, a more normal summary under 900 words. Alientraveller 14:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I've fleshed out the Synopsis a bit more. --Count Ringworm 19:03, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Where is the ISBN for False Witness?--165.173.137.82 15:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Failed GA

I am failing this article as:

  • Failure to write a consise plot section.
  • No cast list.
  • I'll congratulate the editors on the Production and Reaction sections, but some paragraphs do not cite their sources, and the Reaction needs a cite on the Disclosure Act.

Good work, but not there yet. Alientraveller 09:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, it's one of those topics which really should be GA, and on first glance looks like it is. My biggest concern is the relatively low amount of cites. An article of this length really needs more than nine distinct references. There's bound to be loads of RS on this! A rule of thumb is that there should be at least one cite per section. Good work so far, and I'll look forward to seeing this reach GA. The JPStalk to me 09:53, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
You'll probably find it useful to borrow some references from other related articles. Box office stuff could do with sources: take a look at some FAs and GAs like Jaws (film) and Jaws 2 to see where they got their refs for that sort of thing from... I've reorganised the 'reaction' section into more manageable subsections. Don't forget that Stone's commentary could be a reference too... do you have that? Curiously enough, I was listening to it last night, but fell asleep. The JPStalk to me 10:09, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Images

The images have fair use rationales, but they are lacking somewhat in depth. Do you think the DVD cover is necessary, considering it is effectively identical to the poster in the infobox? It tells us nothing that the text doesn't. The film has some strong frames, and I'm not convinced the article has chosen appropriate ones. The JPStalk to me 11:14, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References to Popular Culture

Until this information can be substantiated with references, I'm placing it here for now. Count Ringworm 19:27, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References in popular culture

 This article does not cite any references or sources. (April 2007)
Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unverifiable material may be challenged and removed.

The film has been homaged, parodied or referenced in several television shows, films and musical works.

In his 1993 miniseries, Wild Palms – set in 2007 – Stone had a small cameo appearance in which he played himself on a television interview program, where he revealed that the documents pertaining to the assassination had been made public and that the film's version of events had been proven right.

The scene in the courtroom where Garrison makes his "second shooter" demonstration was spoofed in a 1992 Seinfeld episode ("The Boyfriend"). In the episode, Jerry uses Newman as one of the people in his own "second spitter" demonstration. Wayne Knight, who plays Newman in the series, also had a small role in this film, and was one of the people in Garrison's demonstration. Coincidentally, Knight's character in "JFK" is named Numa.

A two-part episode of Quantum Leap ("Lee Harvey Oswald") was created largely as a response to Stone's film. The episode attempted to debunk many of the conspiracy theories proposed by the film, and suggested that Oswald was indeed the lone assassin.

In the film Dave, with Kevin Kline, Stone has a cameo appearance as himself in which he is interviewed on CNN by Larry King about his conspiracy theory regarding the president in the film. This parodies appearances he made during the time of JFK's initial release.

An episode of The Itchy & Scratchy Show, the cartoon within The Simpsons, was "guest directed" by Oliver Stone and shows Itchy shooting Scratchy in a manner similar to Jack Ruby's murder of Lee Harvey Oswald, in reference to JFK.

The song "Martin Sheen or JFK" by Yellowcard is a reference to this film.[citation needed]

[edit] Synopsis - order of events

In the film, Garrison interviews Shaw well before meeting Mr. X. Also X does not suggest that he should arrest anyone in particular. At the initial meeting with Garrison, Shaw denies knowing Ferrie et al rather than following his arrest as suggested in the synopsis. I can work up an alternative text but thought I would just mention it first to see if someone else wants to revise it. HDarke 18:58, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA on hold

Very good work so far, now some minor issues:

  • "The first draft of the JFK screenplay was 190 pages long. Stone managed to pare it down to a 156 page shooting script" in Screenplay is uncited.
  • Could the casting information be moved up to the cast section section? Considering this is a historical film, based on reality, no matter how loosely, so real-world information on casting can go easily with real world characters.
  • This paragraph, "Two principle criticisms of the film were the depiction of Jim Garrison as not historically accurate..." could go into historical inaccuracies, alongside the note of Stone's commentary.
  • The 7.9. rating on IMDb should be removed, per WP:MOSFILMS.
  • The DVD section isn't sourced: this can be easy, due to Amazon or IGN pages for those releases. The British DVD, with its lack of documentary, could be mentioned.

I'll check up tomorrow to offer further criticisms of the article, but it is shaping up fine for a GA article on such a controversial film. For FA, someone should track down JFK — The Book of the Film to really expand the article. Alientraveller 18:03, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the many constructive comments. I've managed to make all of them except for mention of the UK DVD. I do have JFK - The Book of the Film and am going through it right now for info that could beef this article up to an FA status. --J.D. 18:53, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Some more suggestions:

  1. You don't really need (credits order) for cast. In fact, consider combining relevant information to each entry, ala the Batman Begins article. The "Sean Stone..." paragraph should be combined with "Supposed assassination witness..." Also the quote should be centered and in italics if you really want to draw attention to it, or else just make it part of a paragraph.
  2. You could take "Filming was going smoothly... negligible conscience" and put it in reaction, to show how the press were always after Stone. Reception could get very long, so seperate all the reviews, awards, impact and editorials from finite elements such as box office performance and the DVD releases. That'd be fine due to the lack of information on the box office.

Alientraveller 19:37, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

This is great. Thanks for the suggestions, some of which I've already implemented. --J.D. 20:53, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

GA passed. Alientraveller 11:18, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citation Needed

"though thousands of pages are still being withheld as of 2007"...This line, referring to the ARRB, needs a citation, or I'm deleting it. Bugliosi's book flat-out denies this is the case, and I'll take his word over some conspiracy nut any day of the week. Also, the mention of destroyed documents is somewhat inflamatory. I'll do some checking on that to see if any documents were known to be destroyed. But come on, people, the Wikipedia is supposed to be a collection of facts, not nonsense.--Sm5574 (talk) 00:54, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I thought so too. I removed this statement. --J.D. (talk) 14:23, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Oswald's qualification as a marksman

The words "sharpshooter" and "marksman" mean the same thing. Using the word "sharpshooter" after using the word "marksman" to describe Oswald's qualification makes it appear as though his marksmanship was of high quality, which is POV pushing. Robert Ham (talk) 13:48, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

While the dictionary meanings of the words are nearly identical, the military designation of skill with a rifle differentiates between "marksman" (lower proficiency), "sharpshooter" (mid), and "expert" (high). I will be removing the following line from the article in the historical inaccuracy because "sharpshooters" are not highly-proficient "marksmen", often they are considered, at best, "average" marksmen (http://www.okinawa.usmc.mil/PDFs/2006/20061020.pdf) - on top of that, Oswald just BARELY eeked by in getting sharpshooter designation and is recorded to have generally scored lower. aerotheque (talk) 23:29, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
Original quote:
Despite the movie's suggestion that Oswald was not a highly proficient marksman, upon his enlistment in the Marines in 1956, Oswald qualified as a "sharpshooter".
Original reference:
"While he was at San Diego, Oswald was trained in the use of the M-1 rifle. His practice scores were not very good, but when his company fired for record on December 21, he scored 212, 2 points above the score necessary to qualify as a "sharpshooter" on a marksman/sharpshooter/expert scale. He did not do nearly as well when he fired for record again shortly before he left the Marines. He practiced also with a riot gun and a .45-caliber pistol when he was in the Marines but no scores were recorded http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-13.html "This excellent shot would have given him the ability to hit a ten-inch bull's eye, from a minimum of two hundred yards, eight times out of ten-from a standing position" (Case Closed, by Gerald Posner, ISBN-13: 978-0385474467, page 20).

[edit] Magic bullet trajectory

In "The scene indicates that the president was directly in front of the president" one incidence of "president" would be "governor"? MartinSFSA (talk) 06:04, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Edwin Walker

When Stone started his project, did he bother to do any research on Oswald's attempted assassination of Maj. Gen. Edwin Walker? According to Oswald biographer Priscilla MacMillan, it's the 'rosetta stone' for the Kennedy assassination. And003 (talk) 02:27, 2 March 2008 (UTC)