Template talk:Jewish and Israeli holidays

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Contents 1 New Israeli holidays as religious holidays 2 Shabbat 3 Which holidays to include and how to organize them 4 Community-specific holy days 5 Yitzchak Rabin day? 6 Counting of the Omer 7 Ethnic Jewish holidays

[edit] New Israeli holidays as religious holidays

Before this erupts into an edit war: how do the participants feel about making a seperate category in this box for Israeli national holidays? Not all POVs will agree that Yom Ha'atzma'ut is a Jewish religious holiday. JFW | T@lk 15:06, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I've changed the template to reflect the above. Please comment. I have also put all the Sukkot-related holidays under one link, as all of them link to Sukkot anywayz. JFW | T@lk 14:51, 29 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Why are "Sukkot, Hoshanah Rabbah, and Shemini Atzeret" in one link, and Simchat Torah under another? Hoshanah Rabbah is part of Sukkot, and Simchat Torah is part of Shemini Atzeret. Dreyfus 00:04, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I think it should be. The Israeli state and Zionists can be accused of hijacking Judaism for political purposes. Some of these are secular holidays. --MacRusgail 00:09, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

All of the following Orthodox Jewish organizations accept these four new days as Jewish holidays, and not just Israeli state holidays: The Union of Orthodox Congregations and Rabbinical Council of America; The United Hebrew Congregations of the Commonwealth (United Kingdom); and The Chief Rabbinate of the State of Israel. All of Reform Judaism and Conservative Judaism accept these four new days as Jewish holidays, and not just Israeli state holidays. The same is true for the smaller, newer groups, the Union for Traditional Judaism and the Reconstructionist movement. To the best of the my knowledge, no Hasidic or Haredi group accepts these as religious holidays. As for secular Jews who do not actively observe Judaism as a religion, most seem to have accepted Yom HaShoah and Israel Independence Day as real Jewish holidays; the other two days secular Jews outside Israel probably wouldn't know about. RK

Of course, that is why these holidays are on the same template. However, you must be aware that the Haredi view is quite unlike that of the OU and the RCA. To satisfy all opinions, I have seperated the two. JFW | T@lk 12:27, 1 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Fine by me. I started a brief section on this topic in the Jewish holidays article, but this can be edited and revised. RK 14:46, Sep 1, 2004 (UTC)

I object to the juxtaposition of secular modern Israeli holidays with ancient Torah holidays. They have nothing at all in common and it is nothing but misleading to suggest otherwise. I propose that this template be split into two: One for secular holidays and one for Torah ones. Yehoishophot Oliver 13:48, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

So no one objects to my suggestion to splitting up the box in this way? If so, I will split it so. Yehoishophot Oliver 15:26, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Since there was still no objection, and several weeks have passed, I have carried out my suggestion. This template has now been divided into two separate templates: Template:Jewish holidays and Template:Israeli holidays. For the meantime, I have redirected the old template to Template:Jewish holidays, because the majority of the holidays are there, and I will go to each of the Israeli holidays and direct them with Template:Israeli holidays. Yehoishophot Oliver 11:49, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I actually do object to this. I didn't notice this thread which had been dormant for three years. Most people don't notice discussions on templates. Most Jews do celebrate the Israeli holidays as Jewish holidays. Due to the reason that people objected to the incorporation of the Israeli holidays into the Jewish holidays, the compromise made was seperating them into seperate sections. This was a compromise that appeased both sides of the debate. I apologize, but the way you split it into two templates doesn't take into account the majority opinion that they are all Jewish holidays. I think we need to preserve the compromise and revert back to the sections of a single template. Valley2city 03:34, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed, since most Jews consider them Jewish holidays, they should be here, having them seperate within the table was a compomise made recognizing not everyone considers them Jewish holidays. I have reverted the change. Epson291 (talk) 06:00, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted back the change made without consensus. Most Jews do not consider them religious holidays, because they are not. They're secular days instituted by the secular gov't. It makes no sense to lump them together with religious days like Yom Kippur. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 14:52, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how we would measure "most". First of all, when asking whether "most Jews" observe something as a Jewish holiday we must be discussing only that subset of Jews that observes Jewish holidays in the first place. Those to whom a Jewish holiday is just a day on the calendar can't be counted for this purpose. Now of observant Jews, quite a lot do observe these days as religious holidays, by saying hallel, omitting tachanun, special prayers, etc. And quite a lot completely ignore them, or, if they live in Israel, observe them only as secular holidays. In Israel, probably a majority of observant Jews do keep them; outside Israel, probably a majority don't. So how do we handle that?

Well, how about Maimouna? That's certainly celebrated as a Jewish holiday, by those who celebrate it at all. And it's certainly not a secular holiday. So should it be counted as a Jewish holiday and included in the template, even though most Jews have barely heard of it? I don't know, but if it's decided to include Maimouna then I'm not sure on what grounds these other days can be excluded. (The same argument applies to such days as Yud Tes Kislev or the fast of the 20th of Sivan.) -- Zsero (talk) 15:14, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Yhoishophot, Jewish religious holidays have notghing to do with Israeli holiday's and should be kept separate. Shlomke (talk) 06:54, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

You split these two templates without any discussion so I reverted it (and after two objections), unless there is consensus it shouldn't be moved. To quote form RK above, "All of the following Orthodox Jewish organizations accept these four new days as Jewish holidays, and not just Israeli state holidays: The Union of Orthodox Congregations and Rabbinical Council of America; The United Hebrew Congregations of the Commonwealth (United Kingdom); and The Chief Rabbinate of the State of Israel. All of Reform Judaism and Conservative Judaism accept these four new days as Jewish holidays, and not just Israeli state holidays. The same is true for the smaller, newer groups, the Union for Traditional Judaism and the Reconstructionist movement. To the best of the my knowledge, no Hasidic or Haredi group accepts these as religious holidays. As for secular Jews who do not actively observe Judaism as a religion, most seem to have accepted Yom HaShoah and Israel Independence Day as real Jewish holidays; the other two days secular Jews outside Israel probably wouldn't know about." Epson291 (talk) 03:14, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The fact that a minority of Jews don't recognize them is why it is seperated from the other holidays. However it is POV to seperate it from this temeplate, those holidays are in fact reconized by many Jewish organziations as Jewish holidays as cited above. Epson291 (talk) 03:14, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

It's much more POV to put it in the template (which was done without consensus) clearly implying endorsement of the minority view that these days established by the secular anti-religious gov't are some sort of religious holidays. As for the groups you cite, The OU, the RCA, the UHCC, and the Chief Rabbinate of Israel (no kidding!) is a underwhelming minority of rabbinic organisations. And they don't necessarily say that all these days have religious significance, like the days in the Jewish holidays template, just that they think that they're all worth marking and participating in. You'll need sources to say otherwise. I'm reverting. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 04:17, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The fact that Conservative, Reform, and large Orthodox org.'s (like the OU), which make up a large part (if not the majority of Jews!) view these as Jewish Holidays makes them so, take your POV pushing elsewhere. Epson291 (talk) 01:02, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Most Jews are unaffiliated. The OU and the other groups you mentioned represents a minority of Orthodox Jews. You are the one who is POV pushing.

And you ignored my point: the issue is not whether these groups hold that these days are worth marking, which I don't deny, but whether they declared that all the days declared by the state also have religious significance, which would justify putting them on a par with the other days in the Jewish holidays template. The fact that they believe these says are worth marking could just mean a commemoration along the lines of the secular nature of these days as meant by the secular state that enacted these days as state holidays for all citizens, including non-Jews. Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 04:11, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

First of all, these holidays aren't even marked as "Jewish holidays" in this template. They are marked at the less then satisfactory "Holidays in Israel," withholding judgment on the Jewish nature of the holidays. Second of all, for a large segment, if not the majority of the Jewish population sees nothing "secular" in the world's only Jewish state. Days such as Yom HaShoah and Yom Ha'atzmaut are marked with prayers at many synagogue or community events in the Diaspora that are religious in nature. These organziations have accepeted them as Jewish holidays, not simply Israeli state holidays. In addition Modern Orthodox, Conservative and Reform Jews make make up the majority of Jews, Hasidic/Haredi do not. The majority opinion that they are all Jewish holidays. Epson291 (talk) 03:16, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Shabbat

Re: Shabbos as a holiday see: Jewish Holiday#Shabbat Jewbacca 22:27, Aug 31, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Which holidays to include and how to organize them

I think we should come to some sort of consensus on which holidays to include and how to organize them. I just added Pesach Sheni but I'm not sure whether or not it should make the cut. It is a holiday ordained by the Torah but is it significant enough to include here. Should we have a separate section for the holidays so minor that the only change is that Tachanun is omitted and that very few people observe/know about (ie: Tu B'Av or Pesach Sheni)? I do agree that the four Israel holidays should retain their own section as a compromise as not to offend those who do not consider them holidays nor offending those who consider them full-fledged Jewish-religious holidays. And Should Yitzhak Rabin Memorial Day be included here? --Valley2city^₪‽ 17:38, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Community-specific holy days

Sigd and Maimouna he: articlemore info come to mind. Any others? Tomer^talk 00:07, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Added them. -Reuvenk_{T C} 13:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Hi, see my comments below #Ethnic Jewish holidays. Thanks, IZAK (talk) 10:10, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Yitzchak Rabin day?

Whoever added ''Unofficial''{{spaces|3}} {{nowrap|[[Yitzhak Rabin|Yitzhak Rabin Remembrance Day]]}} to this venerable template has a lot of explaining to do...! I have removed it, naturally. IZAK 03:34, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Counting of the Omer

Since when is "Counting of the Omer" a Jewish holiday? Chesdovi 13:46, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ethnic Jewish holidays

It is pure WP:NOR to go down this path. Either a day is a Jewish holiday or it is not. For the same reason that Israeli holidays could not eventually be included here, "Sigd" or "Mimouna" (the latter not being a holiday, more of a eating fest like a post Pesach beerfest) also cannot. Otherwise we may as well start including the likes of Chrismukkah or 19 Kislev into "ethnic Jewish holidays" -- so sorry, let's keep our focus here please, and not fall victim to ethnic splintering. IZAK (talk) 10:07, 23 November 2007 (UTC)