Talk:Jewna

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[edit] The original text of this article

I contacted the person by email, assuming that would be the original author 193.109.145.194, and they confirmed by email that the information here was in error and that in fact, it referred to the wives of Lubart, son of Gediminas and Jewna. I am moving the original contents to the Talk:Lubart page for those who know the subject to verify it and merge into Lubart. - Introvert ^talk 22:59, 8 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Translation from the chronicle

Text in Ruthenian: "Y kniaziu welikomu Olgierdu, starszemu bratu ich, y kniaziu welikomu Kieystutiu ne spodobałosia im na Wilni y na kniastwe Litowskom dla nekotorych pryczyn, bo kniahinia Jewna umerła.

My attempt at a gloss: "And [to the] Grand Prince Olgierd, their older brother, and [to the] grand prince Kieystut, it was displeasing [to him] in Vilnius, and [on the] Lithuanian throne for several reasons, because the princess Jewna had died."

I'm most confused by the "im na Wilni y na..." portion, as the dative im has no clear antecedent. Could use some insight from a Slavic speaker. Also, I only vaguely recollect that бо in Ukrainian is "because", and I may very well be mistaken. Same with spodobalosia; if I recall - big if - сподобалося is Ukrainian for "it pleasing + [dative]" (like нравиться in Russian?). That may not even be the same word, though. KolyaFrankovich 18:22, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

• Thanks for getting back to this -- I was trying to keep my hopes alive :) As far as I can see, speaking Russian only, I came up with pretty much the same translation. Here's an expanded quotation from the Bychovets chronicle which might make better sense:

Kniaziu Jewnutiu panuiuczy na Wilni y na Welikom kniastwe Litowskom. Y kniaziu welikomu Olgierdu, starszemu bratu ich, y kniaziu welikomu Kieystutiu ne spodobałosia im na Wilni y na kniastwe Litowskom dla nekotorych pryczyn, bo kniahinia Jewna umerła [ в Евреиновской летописи: чтоб брат их на том княжст†сидЂл ]

... which I reconstruct in Russian this way:

Князь Евнутий правил в Вильно и в Великом княжестве Литовском. И не понравилось великому князю Ольгерду, старшему брату их, и великому князю Кейстуту, не понравилось им по некоторым причинам в Вильно и в княжестве Литовском, потому что княгиня Евна умерла (в Евреиновской летописи: не понравилось, чтобы брат их на том княжестве сидел)

...and am now hoping that you are much better able than me to make that whole thing into glossy English :)

something like this,

"Prince Jawnut reigned in Wilno (Vilnius) and in Great Lithuania. And his elder brother the Grand Prince Olgierd, and the Grand Prince Kiejstut became displeased in Vilnius and Grand Lithuania for some reasons as princess Jewna had died [or: because they didn't like it that their brother kept the throne ]

- Introvert ~? 06:50, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

• Now we're getting somewhere! Context helps. I made an almost identical translation into Russian (doing it in Latin characters messes with the mind) but didn't have the helpful first sentence. So how's this for a gloss:

  "Prince Jewnut reigned in Vilnius and the Grand Principality of Lithuania. It displeased both his older brother the Grand Prince Olgierd and the Grand Prince Keystut in Vilnius and the Principality of Lithuania for several reasons, as the Princess Jewna had died. (in European chronicles: they were displeased that their brother sat on the throne)"

  I'm still a little confused as to why it's "starszemu brat ich" - assuming that ich = их, I'm guessing that the plural refers to Prince Keystut in the previous paragraph. In any case, I think we're coming along. KolyaFrankovich 10:58, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

• Yes we're getting there all right -- between my English and our Ruthenian... :) Your tranlsation looks quite accurate to me but a couple subtleties perhaps...

  To both Kiejstut and Jawnut, Olgierd was their elder brother -- that's why ich (их, their). It doesn't have to be translated exactly word-by-word, I don't think? the way we got it looks fine to me.

  A bit more of the story for you, as far as I learned. According to the Giedymin's will, Jewnut became the Prince of Lithuania, sat in Wilno, and -- here's the catch -- the Queen/Princess (княгиня) Jewna, their mother, lived with Jewnut in Wilno also. Under the same will of Giedymin, Olgierd and Keystut had principalities for them to own, as well. It seems that as long as mother Jewna was there, Jewnut's loving belligerent brothers kept minding their own business. But once she died, Olgierd and Keystut, apparently each being stronger, more authoritative, perhaps more aggressive and with greater will to power than Jewnut, didn't like it that Jewnut would have continued to reign in the absense of the Queen mother, and decided to raid Wilno and take over him and divide Lithuania and Wilno among themselves (and they did) -- for whatever "some/several reasons". They then made Jewnut a Duke in some other place.

  All that said, the only point in quoting from the chronicle in the article a bout Jewna was, I think, that the chronicle somehow ties back to the year 1344 when she died (don't know exactly how the historians did this). There's nothing else there about Jewna personally. So I certainly didn't mean that any of my ramble needs to go anywhere, but I just thought that my freestyle retelling of the "horror" story might help you in your efforts to add more glint, if you want.

  So how do you feel about this:

  "Prince Jewnut reigned in Vilnius and the Grand Principality of Lithuania. Both his older brother the Grand Prince Olgierd and the Grand Prince Keystut became displeased by Vilnius and the Principality of Lithuania for several reasons, as the Princess Jewna had died (in Evreinov chronicle: they were displeased that their brother would have kept that throne)"

  Note: "Евреиновская летопись" --> Evreinov chronicle (not "European"), was named after the last owner who donated the 17th-century manuscript to historical archives http://litopys.org.ua/psrl3235/lytov14.htm#evrejin.

  Also, should we perhaps leave Vilnuis at Wilno? since we use all other names in their versions as in the chronicle. Leaving to your discretion... Kind regards - Introvert ~? 08:29, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

• Sounds cool to me. D'oh on the Евреиновская; I just stopped reading after Евр-.

That gloss looks excellent, and I like the idea of leaving Wilno in. Therefore I propose this as a final gloss:

• ""Prince Jewnut reigned in Vilnius and the Grand Principality of Lithuania. Both his older brother the Grand Prince Olgierd and the Grand Prince Keystut became displeased by Wilno (Vilnius) and the Principality of Lithuania for several reasons, as the Princess Jewna had died (in the Evreinov Chronicle: they were displeased that their brother would have kept that throne)""

  Thanks also for clearing up the 'ich' thing that was bothering me. I'm not good at wiki formatting (I really only do French -> English translations and other translation gruntwork), so could you put this on the page? This has been fun! KolyaFrankovich 14:15, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

• The final gloss looks perfect and I will try and wrap it all up shortly, not to worry. Merci bien - спасибо - Introvert ~? 09:10, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed chronicle translation

The following was removed by me because it's not encyclopedic. Such stuff belongs on Wikisource. And the colors...

Renata 21:19, 15 October 2006 (UTC)