Talk:Jewish views of marriage

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Contents 1 Question 2 Lieberman Clause 3 Requested move : "religion-X's view of marriage" to "religion-X's teaching on marriage" 3.1 Survey 3.2 Discussion 4 legally binding 5 Notice of CfD nomination 6 Ger Toshav proposal 7 Meaning of "Mekudeshet"

[edit] Question

As civil marriage does not exist in Israel, the only institutionalized form of marriage in Israel is the religious one, i.e. a marriage conducted by a cleric. In specific, marriage of Israeli Jews must be conducted according to Orthodox Jewish halakha(my emphasis)

What about Israelis who are not jewish? This implies that marriages in Israel between non-jews do not have to be conducted according to Orthodox Jewish halakha, however this makes no sense if there is no civil marriage. What was the intended meaning?

16:27, 15 December 2005 (UTC) (Skittle)

Israeli marriages are conducted by the religious streams. Christians get married by the Christian authorities, Muslims by the Muslim authorities, Druze by the Druze authorities. Etc. What's the problem? Incidently, this actually is simply a continuation of Ottoman law, from the time of the ottoman Empire Amechad 17:47, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

"Some hold, therefore, that much intermarriage today, is thus not a deliberate rejection of Judaism, but a choice to marry a person that one has happened to meet."

This is exactly how I see it. If you think Jewish identity is being threatened, don't blame intermarriage, blame the apathy towards religious education and towards inculcating piety that results in Jews and gentiles having enough in common to get married.

I was taught the syllables of the prayers and a few factoids about the major holidays, three hours a week, with no theological or doctrinal exploration, no indication of why this blooming, buzzing confusion was important. I think I and a practicing Jew (more than three days a year, that is) would be incompatible. --Calieber 18:12, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)

So you suggest to not tell Jews what they do wrong, because, since they weren't taught properly to begin with, why start now? I don't care how a Jew is raised, when he picks up a BLT I will quickly remind him that pork is not Kosher. - SF2K1

What if it was a girl? You'd be too scared to say anything I bet. Zargulon 12:18, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

---

Although I am not familiar with all the details of Steve Greenberg's proposal, I know him well enough to know that the way it was presented here is dubious at best. I will call him some time this week to ask him what he really said, noting that as much as I admire him as a teacher and a friend, his views on marriage (particularly gay marriage, for which he is most famous) are highly controversial in traditional circles. In the meanwhile, I have attempted to fix the article here so that it is more in keeping with my reading of Steve there. Danny 22:45, 5 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Greenberg has publicly published his views. The article gave a weblink to his own essay, reproduced below. As far as I know, everything he says nowadays is automatically rejected by most of Orthodox Judaism. They don't like the fact that a gay Orthodox rabbi has outed himself; until recently Orthodoxy had tried to maintain the fiction that no gay Orthodox rabbis existed. (Many even tried to argue that no gay Orthodox Jews existed.) In many mainstream Orthodox circles (Agudat Yisrael, Young Israel) he is trief. In much of the Modern Orthodox Rabbinical Council of America he also is considered damaged goods. Privately, however, he still has some currency among liberal Orthodox Jews, both rabbis and laypeople. RK 01:26, Oct 26, 2003 (UTC)

I seriously doubt that his proposal will ever be accepted by Orthodox Judaism. Publicly his proposal is being discussed and debated by many Conservative rabbis, but they show no signs of adopting this view. Instead, they are unofficially sending such couples to Reform rabbis, many of whom will perform a Ger Toshav marriage. The Conservative movement has had an outreach movement for such couples for years, and has recently stepped up efforts in this area. However, their official position, which they actually follow in practice, is that they will not perform any marriage ceremony between a Jew and a non-Jew. However if such a couple happens to come to a Conservative synagogue, and shows interest in a single-faith Jewish household, then they will be welcomed with open arms. (How open, of course, depends on the people in the particular synagogue. Some are more progressive, some shoot themselves in the foot.) RK 01:26, Oct 26, 2003 (UTC)

Among Reform and Reconstructionist rabbis, they no longer view halakha (Jewish law) as binding, and thus see no formal impediment to performing an intermarriage of any sort. Individual Reform and Rec. rabbis have total autonomy as whether or not to officiate at such ceremonies, and each sets their own preconditions. I have spoken to a few who agree with Rabbi Greenberg's Ger Toshav proposal, and they are already accrying it out, sometimes on behalf of O and C rabbis who sent couples to them. RK 01:29, Oct 26, 2003 (UTC)

Rabbi Steve Greenberg's Ger Toshav intermarriage proposal.

[edit] Lieberman Clause

What's the basis of the argument that the Lieberman clause in a ketubah is contrary to halakhah?

I haven't read it, but I believe the problem is that a forced get is not valid. So if the clause forces the man to give a get, even if he does, the get is invalid since it was under duress. 67.165.96.26 16:32, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

This is a debate. A few years after it came out Norman Lamm wrote an article in Tradition arguing it was not valid in halakha. Since the 1960s, btw, many Conservative rabbis have required a seperate pre-nuptual civil agreement (basically the same text as the Lieberman clause but in a seperate civil document) be signed. Amechad 17:47, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] legally binding

These marriages are legally binding in Israel, though not recognized by the rabbinate as Jewish. What is the benefit of marriage from israel authorities? Tax, social money, ..??--Stone 13:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Notice of CfD nomination

Removed cfdnotice, cfd has completed. --Kbdank71 16:50, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ger Toshav proposal

It would be interesting to hear other opinions concerning this section. Does one controversial man's controversial proposal deserve a large separate section? Does it merit mention at all? Also disturbing is that the section does not even identify Steven Rosenberg as a controversial figure. I will edit the article to include the "proposal" in its correct context.38.117.213.19 07:50, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Meaning of "Mekudeshet"

The article says that the word "Mekudeshet" means "Holy", but I remember hearing somewhere that the word "kadosh" from which the word mekudeshet derives means, in a way, "seperate" which in this context could mean exclusivity (This would also make sense grammatically). I'm not sure what the talmudic view on this is, anyone know or have any ideas? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.161.1.25 (talk) 17:32, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

mekudeshet literally means betrothed. It is etymologically related to the meaning of holy or consecrated or set aside for a purpose. I have removed the statement that "Mekudeshet" means "Holy". Jon513 (talk) 13:48, 25 February 2008 (UTC)