Talk:Jewish population

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[edit] Maps

I didn't give you permission to use my maps.

This comment was added anonymously 28 Dec 2004. No way to know if it was posted by the creator of the maps but it got me to look at the provenance. The image pages attribute them to Matthew White and link to http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/maildrop.htm. On that page, he writes, "I do not release my work into the public domain. I do not allow my work to be distributed under GNU Free Documentation License." He's also pretty clear about giving permission only for non-commercial use, whereas Wikipedia is not supposed to use images with that restriction. I'd say this use is almost certainly not legit, and I am going to flag the images as probable copyvios. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:48, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC)
Jmabel, I added the images when I created the article, and I did make sure that these images were tagged properly. According to the usage page, his older maps were acceptable to reprint as long as credit was given and they were not used commercially. Even though they were not GNU licensed, they seemed valuable to include, and available for wiki use under the author's own usage restrictions. If that was a mistake, then do remove them. --Goodoldpolonius2 16:00, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Given the above note, which may or may not be from Matthew White, could you possibly contact him and try to get his overt permission to use these? -- Jmabel | Talk 21:36, Dec 29, 2004 (UTC)
Yeah, though he warns that he checks his email less than once every six months - hopefully he will come back (if that is him) and answer directly. --Goodoldpolonius2 23:17, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Yes. It was me. If you personally were the end user, I would be more relaxed about it, but Wikipedia content gets copied by about three hundred unrelated sites, some of whom are commercial, most of which are unedited without even the minimal quality control. Also, I only allow 3 maps per site, and Wikipedia is up against its quota already. Also, since Wikipedia has ten thousand writers and it's never finished, there's no guarantee that in three months the maps won't be illustrating some neo-Nazi tirade, which will then have my name attached. So please, remove them. Sorry. Matthew White 30 Dec.
Okay, Matthew, too bad. Let us know if you change your mind. In the meantime (every hopeful), I will remove them. --Goodoldpolonius2 15:12, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Israel vs. Diaspora

It seems to me that the breakdown of the numbers into Israel vs. "diaspora" is a political one, rather than anything else. World total is, of course, appropriate, as are these other breakdowns, but "diaspora" (which is simply the total minus Israel) seems to to be in this chart as a separate entry only out of Zionist political position. Barring a clear reasoned objection in the next few days, I will remove it. -- Jmabel | Talk 09:37, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC) Since no one has voiced disagreement, I am going ahead with this. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:06, Dec 30, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV issues in this article

There are some NPOV issues in this article but I am not editing directly first purposing it in the talk. The most evident of those is following.

Jewish population in ‘west bank’ and ‘gaza strip’ should also be mentioned because many countries don’t recognize it as a part of Israel and that makes it forth largest ‘jewish population’ after US, Israel and France.
Zain 13:22, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Maybe just footnote Israel as "including disputed territories"? Because otherwise we are going to get dragged into the distinction between unilaterally annexed East Jersualem and the rest of the West Bank, and the issue of the small number of Jews (but possibly comparable to the number of Jews in Gaza) living illegally even by Israeli standards in territory not authorized for settlements, etc. Anyway, for now, I'll just add the footnote. -- Jmabel | Talk 18:35, Dec 20, 2004 (UTC)
As the concern section gives ‘Jewish population distribution’ in different areas if you give approximate number of Jews in occupied areas, from my side contents will be acceptable. The number which I believe is 370,000. You can also check this number as a foot note on Jew article.
Thanks for your cooperation Zain 21:30, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for your changes :-) Zain 23:37, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Population tables

Jmabel, would it be more interesting to see the 1900 and 2002 tables side by side? I think it would allow for interesting comparisons, and fill the page better as well. Thoughts? Jayjg | (Talk) 02:31, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

They are not very comparable on any level smaller than continents. For example, the meaning of Austria in 1900 is so archaic that I didn't even link it to our Austria article, I linked it to Cisleithania. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:16, Dec 31, 2004 (UTC)
Well, ok, but on the continent level it is, and I think the aesthetics are better. Cisleithania? Very impressive. :-) Jayjg | (Talk) 03:48, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC

New population info: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/jewpop.html

160.39.226.97 06:13, 8 February 2007 (UTC)lauren160.39.226.97 06:13, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Table problem

These tables are messed up again. I would change them if I knew how, but I don't. I'm sure one of you out there must know what to do. I'm sure there's valuable information there if I could see it in any clear format. Help! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.59.221.184 (talk • contribs) 15 Nov 2005.

Looks fine to me, browsing at the moment with Internet Explorer. If you are still seeing a problem, could you be more specific? -- Jmabel | Talk 23:26, 17 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Nice Job, Jmabel

Good job on the rewrite of the page - coherent and informative. --Goodoldpolonius2 03:08, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree. Jayjg | (Talk) 03:13, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Tables

What happened to the tables on this page? OneGuy 23:25, 20 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Yikes, that's awful. I think something has changed in Wikipedia, in the past couple of days "un-executed" html format commands have started showing, rather than being hidden. That's how I discovered I had one in my sig. Jayjg | (Talk) 14:32, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)
Hmm. Looks fine in my browser (FireFox). Either this is browser-specific or it's been switched back. -- Jmabel | Talk 02:55, Jan 22, 2005 (UTC)
It's displaying fine now unlike yesterday. OneGuy 04:53, 22 Jan 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Bnei Menashe

someone wanna update this to include the estimated 6,000 newly "official Jews" (Bnei Menashe) in India? Tomer TALK 03:05, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

Well, according to Rabbi Shlomo, they aren't Jewish until his folks finish officially converting them[1]. Then, I suppose, they are all going to Israel, like the previous Indian Jewish communities, so there will be little need to update the India list. --Goodoldpolonius2 03:18, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
From what I've read on the subject, relying on other articles than just the Haaretz article, is that the Rabanut is planning to open a semipermanent "outreach" facility. There are some 5 million people who are members of the ethnic groups in question (it doesn't just involve the Mizo)...and from what I've read, the rabanut sees this as an ongoing process. My understanding, again, relying on Shavei Israel and other sources, is that the rabanut has declared "kosher" those who are already living as Jews, and is planning for the future, rather than merely giving a stamp of approval to what is essentially already a given "fact" in the mind of Shavei Yisrael and the Bnei Menashe community already living in India. Tomer TALK 04:32, Apr 4, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Double counting

The Israeli population stats include anyone who has Israeli citizenship or permanent resident status and has visited Israel within a year. Most of these people are also included in the Jew population of other countries. So summing these numbers is meaningless and deceptive.

"Meaningless and deceptive?" Perhaps you want to provide a source on the magnitude of this "deception"? Or actually read the report cited in the article, which talks about methodology? The numbers are population estimates, and as the Jewish population surveys have not been shy about showing decreases in Jewish population, I am not aware of any source that says that worldwide Jewish population numbers have been systmatically inflated. Israel does indeed count in its census citizens that live abroad but return once a year, similar to how other countries count their population, but there does not seem to be any reason to believe these people are double-counted in any large numbers in the censuses of other countries. The counts of population in the United States are done by sampling surveys of local Jewish communities, for example, not citizenship counts, and efforts are made to weed out dual-counting, which is always a problem in surveys and are included in margins of error(take a look at the methodology section). In fact, the numbers provided here are the lowest population estimates, the big debate is over the definition of what it is to be a Jew, and many of the margins of error are high in any case -- 3.5% for the US, larger for some other countries. --Goodoldpolonius2 15:19, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
I wish I had a source for the the resident and non-resident populations. The CBI has this information, they just don't publish it. I have seen estimates of several hundred thousand "Israelis living abroad". I can find nothing in the report that indicates they have corrected for this. Most other countries publish statistics on the number of people actually living there (useful for planning roads and schools, etc.)24.64.166.191 23:39, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
The numbers are usually that as many as a few hundred thousand Israelis live abroad, according to an article I read awhile ago (sorry, no source). But the census figures are done similarly for the United States, in that they count citizens living abroad in the census of US citizens. Again, there isn't really any reason to suspect massive double-counting, given the methodological differences in the survey techniques, and any double-counting, even of several hundred thousand people, is entirely overwhelmed by the uncertainty around the numbers as a whole. From adherents.com: "Estimates of the world's Jewish population range from about 12 million to over 17 million. On the high end of realistic estimates of how many people would consider themselves Jews seems to be about 15 million, but a figure this high would include a large number of non-practicing, purely ethnic Jews"[2] --Goodoldpolonius2 02:38, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
I found some info on the Canada census. They count diplomatic and military employees abroad.
I am skeptical about your claim about the US - they have no way of contacting civilians living abroad and they do not keep records of every border crossing. Until recently at least.
I pulled the US stuff off of the census methodology page, but what they claim and what is real is probably very diferent. In any case, as I said, the 5 million person discrepency between surveys, plus the fact that the article's numbers are lower than the "realistic estimates" of 15 million cited above, leads me to believe that this is not a problem in any case. --Goodoldpolonius2 07:34, 28 October 2005 (UTC)
The US stuff is moot regardless. The US does not count "Jews" in the census, and so the AJYB conducts "surveys", which are questionable at best (read "pure bunk"). Not only are their criteria for Who is a Jew? somewhat murky, their "survey" methods are rather flawed. For example, on page 268 of the 2002 AJYB, it lists only an estimated 100 Jews for Appleton, Wisconsin (a preposterously low number) and an estimated 300 Jews for Wausau, which it notes "includes Stevens Point, Marshfield, Antigo and Rhinelander" (p.274). It also lists 300 Jews in "other places", which seems like kind of an "out". I can tell you, there are more than 300 Jews in "other places" in Wisconsin. How I know is that in Eau Claire, where I live, there are about 100 Jews who associate actively with the Jewish community at least during high holy days. There are many more who are Jewish, who don't deny that they're Jewish, but don't feel any particular need to be part of the kahal. According to the AJYB, they should be counted as Jews, but they're not...why not? Because their flimsy "survey" only asks about people who identify with the local community when they call around to synagogues out in Podunk, USA. Not that a miscalculation in the number of Jews in Eau Claire is going to have a great affect on the total Jewish population, by whatever definition of Jews that's used, whether by the AJYB or anyone else, but the community here is just one of hundreds across the US, and I have a hard time believing this is the only place that's been erroneously enumerated. So, like I said, it's moot. Spending much time arguing over its accuracy is time wasted. The whole article should just be changed to read "not many" or "not enough".  :-\ Tomer TALK 05:51, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] New JPPPI numbers

I note that the JPPPI, under Sergio DellaPergola et cie, has released new numbers which estimate as of 2005, at http://www.jpppi.org.il/JPPPI/SendFile.asp?TID=67&FID=2377 (it's a PDF). I had assumed that these numbers are newly authoritative; the 2005 estimates are indeed estimates but, then, so are all previous numbers too I imagine -- it is hard to believe that an exhaustive census was conducted! Anyway, writing to let folks know about it. Jewish diaspora now reflects these numbers although, if there is a good reason not to do so that I am missing, that would be fine too. --AnotherBDA 06:21, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

I looked at the JPPPI report, and we can certainly include it, though I wonder what the methodological differences are from the World Jewish Population 2002 report, as it is lower by 200,000 people, yet that seems to come from data revisions and not population changes. I think it might be better to wait for the full WJP to come out in the next few months. --Goodoldpolonius2 14:34, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Ancient Roman Empire?

How about some information about the population of Jews in ancient Rome? Not neccesarily just the middle east but the empire as a whole? Flyerhell 04:44, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It would be welcome if anyone has citable numbers. If someone wants to follow this up, it might be in Harry J. Leon, The Jews of Ancient Rome (Philadelphia 1960). - Jmabel | Talk 00:13, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major overhaul (moves, merges, renames, and additions)

Hello Wikipedians. Based on talk discussions and merge templates, I was bold and shuffled a ton of content tonight. In summary:

I tried to move all the references properly, but please feel free to check things over. Several of the tables need to be converted into Wiki syntax, and I will try to get to that.

I am cross-posting this message to:

Thanks! — Reinyday, 08:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge With World Jewry

I am very much for the merging of this article with the more lucidly termed World Jewry. If you read the above editors points, you like I will realize all our content is too confusing and falling short of any real categories. Chavatshimshon 11:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Not sure what "above editors" you mean. "Jewry" is a word frequently used in antisemitic writings, usually for scaremongering. "Population" is neutral and much more common in scholarly works. Beit Or 16:31, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I put my Google filter off and made a search for 'Jewry'. Besides for the fact that in my readings and in everyday life Jewry is not the oft negative term you say it is, the first hundred result I looked didn't allege your case. I also did a search on a few ani-semitic websites like jewwatch and didnt find the word Jewry. Please study your claim, it is simply ficticious. Chavatshimshon 17:43, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Historically, post-exile and pre-Haskalah, Jewry is a perfectly reasonable term. And it remains a reasonable term for a particular group of Orthodox Jews organized under a rabbinate. But it is an absolutely inappropriate term here. As a secular Jew in Seattle, I am certainly part of the world's Jewish population, but I am not part of any "Jewry". - Jmabel | Talk 17:45, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I would also prefer Jewish population to World Jewry. Another benefit of this title is, it makes clear that the article is indeed about population. ←Humus sapiens ну? 00:07, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Conflicting Entries

This article ("Jewish population") claims that the number of jews living in the United States is 5,914,682. The article, "Jew", claims that the number of jews in the United States is between 5,300,000 and 5,671,000. Furthermore, "American Jews" claims the number to be 6.4 million. In the interest of consistency, at least two of these articles should be changed.
--137.99.174.125 17:33, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Argentina?

This page lists Argentina's Jewish population as being close to 600,000 (which far surpasses Canada and is on par with France), while the Jew page lists Argentina's Jewish population at only 185,000-250,000. This is a MAJOR discrepancy between the two; what is going on here? --WassermannNYC 13:17, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Russia

According to the last Russia's census there are 229,938 Jews in Russia in 2002. So where the figure of 717,101 is taken from? --Koryakov Yuri 09:32, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Brazil

Hey, I have never edited on a wiki talk page before, so if I screw up on etiquette, sorry. Anyway there seems to be a huge discrepancy between the Brazil Jewish population, between graphs 1 (approx 80 000) & 3 (approx 290 000), does anybody have any idea on how to fix this? I believe they both come from primary resources, so I do not know if the numbers can actually be changed in the graphs. Perhaps the less recent one should be removed?~~BCapp

[edit] Iran

Maybe it's just my ignorance, but somehow it seems unlikely that there are, or were in 2002, 20,405 Jews in Iran, given the recent statements made by their leader. Would someone verify this?

Logically I would agree, but they do in fact exist, and even have an allocated amount of seats in the government, along with Christians (jews, christians, and muslims are the 3 recognized religions). Bewilders me too...~~BCapp


Just to let you guys know, Ahmadinejad is against Zionism, not Judaism. Islam recognizes both Christians and Jews as people of the book, and both religions and their liturgical writings are used to testify to information found the Qur'an. ~~ctreddy —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ctreddy (talk • contribs) 03:21, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Accuracy of the data in "Largest Jewish populations by country"

The data in this section contradicts the estimates given in Jew by a factor as high as 3 (e.g. Russia, est. 228k in Jew and 717k in this article). The data from Jew seems reliable; it comes from [3]. But I suspect that the data in this section is highly inaccurate: as mentioned in [4] it's a multiplication of Jewish population percentages from [5] by total population figures. This source is not focused on Jewish population in particular, so I would tend to think that in countries like Russia where Jewish population is less than 1% it could lead to very inaccurate figures...

I'm not sure how to fix it though: the source from Jew does not detail the population in every single country. --Croustix 12:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] by country list out of date

The list claims that the US has the largest Jewish population - which is no longer true: In 2007 the number of Jews in Israel surpassed the number of Jews in the United States. Source: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/903585.html. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.106.108.4 (talk) 21:17, 19 March 2008 (UTC)