Talk:Jewish name
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 |
This article was nominated for deletion on 18 September 2005. The result of the discussion was NO CONSENSUS, which defaults to KEEP. |
Contents |
[edit] Pretty meaningless?
There are very few Jewish surnames in the sense that the overwhelming majority of holders of these names are Jewish or of Jewish paternal descent. (Of course, surnames go down the male line whereas Jewish identity goes down the female line, so you can have a Jewish surname if your father's father was Jewish but your other grandparents weren't. Conversely, you are technically Jewish if your mother's mother was Jewish but your other grandparents weren't.)
In Britain, it is likely that most people with German or East European names such as Bernstein or Rosenblatt are Jewish. However, this mainly reflects the fact that most immigrants from these parts of Europe have been Jewish. Go there and you are unlikely to find that the holders of these names there are Jewish.
Cohen may seem an archetypal Jewish name. However, it has been estimated that in Leeds around a third of Cohens are Irish Roman Catholics, probably a corruption of the Irish name Cohan. Another example is Levin. This was originally a Russian name, not a Jewish one. However, it was adopted by many Jews, especially those descended from the Biblical Levites, so it has become a Jewish name. RachelBrown 13:25, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
- Two comments:
- I believe the point, and value, of this article is that it lists and glosses surnames that originate in the Jewish tradition and languages, not simply a "laundry list" of "surnames of Jews". Does it require a rename and appropriate redirects?
- My remark relates to the List of Jewish surnames; I had no idea that this is part (?) of an article entitled Onomastics in Judaism, a term unfamiliar to me -- and further to which, I question whether the topic applies to Judaism, i.e. the Jewish religion, or rather, to Jewish History.
- -- Deborahjay 03:28, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
- Apparently "Levine" can also be derived from the French for "the vines", ie. someone who lived in or around a vineyard. It and similarly-spelled names are especially common in Quebec, and the ancestors of these people (who are very well-documented) were not Jewish. --Charlene 18:03, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] My Idea
I have a idea (if move to another page)
- Onomastikon on Judaism and Jewish History
- --Sheynhertzגעשׁ״ך 08:53, 8 October 2005 (UTC)
[edit] Geographically derived surnames
I would like to sort/resort some names, like Ashkenazi, Kalischer, and others, to reflect their origin as names which derive from a geographic location. Ususally such a name occurs when a native of one place moves to another, and is described in the new place in terms of his former residence. If there is no discussion, I will begin in one week's time.ThuranX 02:44, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Many German surnames in "Others"
The article would be greatly improved by editing and repositioning the many German surnames now listed as "Others". Ideally, each would be followed by a gloss noting the English meaning of the name (cf. "Leder"). NB: I myself don't have the requisite knowledge; I'm devoting my efforts to the Hebrew. -- Thanks, Deborahjay 04:02, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Surnames
The story of surnames that were "forced on" Jews who refused to take a surname or couldn't come up with a sufficient bribe is known as the "Ekelnamen" (horrid-names) story. It is largely myth. Franzos is one of the few sources for it; most others quote him with or without attribution.
The problem with the story is that some of the surnames mentioned are not humorous, ugly, or otherwise remarkable (Diamant, Edelstein); or have a known origin (Katzenellenbogen is not a cat's elbow but rather the Bavarian town that was home to a rabbinic dynasty); or are very hard to document in actual vital records. Franzos reports these names as coming from Galizia; other stories connect them to New East Prussia between the 3rd partition of Poland (1795) and the Treaty of Tilsit (1806).
Before editing or removing this passage, I'd like to ask for sources or other evidence. I'm quite willing to be proved wrong.RogerLustig 14:32, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] In Spain, Portugal, France, England and Germany
The German part has me puzzled. First of all, how are any of the names given as "Christian" actually such? Germanic, yes; but none of those names is connected to a saint or anything else particularly Christian.
Next, was Knoblauch really used as a given name? I'd love an example.
As to Bernhard and Wolf, those are two of the four "animal" kinnui that were indeed very popular among German Jews. They are in no way Christian; rather, they derive from Jacob's blessing of his 12 sons in Genesis 42. Judah was likened to a lion (Löwe in German, Aryeh in Hebrew); Benjamin to a wolf (Ze'ev); Naphtali to a stag (Hirsch in German, Zvi in Hebrew). Issachar was compared to an ass, a perfectly respectable beast of burden in those days; but the qualities we associate with donkeys today had already become part of the 'aura' of the animal in the Middle Ages; so the kinnui for Issachar became the bear (Baer or Dov).
Since the middle ages, many German Jews have had compound names from one or another animal-name complex, e.g., Zvi Hirsch, Naftali Hirsch, Naftali Zvi, Arjeh Löb, Jehuda Löbel, etc. Of course, there were Gentiles named Hirsch, Baer, and Loeb(el), too.
As for the -mann compounds, Kaufmann was formed from Jakov, and Selig(mann) derives from Baruch. RogerLustig 14:56, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Local names
The assertion: "A certain number of names which might at first sight seem to be derived artificially are merely names of towns, like Birnbaum (translated into "Peartree"), Rosenberg, Sommerfeld, Grünberg (hence Greenberg), Goldberg, and Rubenstein." strikes me as over-general. To be sure, there are towns with those names; but given the wealth of other names with the -berg suffix (Silberberg, Steinberg, Blumberg, Kronenberg, Sternberg), and the many other highly similar compound names (Grünzweig, Grünfeld, Grünbaum, Grünthal) I think the term "merely" could profitably be replaced by "sometimes." After all, How many Jews ever lived in the cities of Rosenberg (Upper Silesia) or Rosenberg (West Prussia) before the era of surname adoption? RogerLustig 15:04, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Jews in Franconia
Are Huber, Frank and Bartel Jewish surnames? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.169.243.251 (talk) 14:32, 27 December 2006 (UTC).
[edit] Undesirable names/payment for names
Is this article generally accurate? The way the purchase/assignation of desirable/undesirable names is not given in the same way in the Wikipedia article. Badagnani 07:45, 3 December 2007 (UTC)
=== No, it's not particularly accurate. It's a mishmosh of incomplete, inaccurate, sometimes misleading information. Some of the translations are wrong, and at least one is misspelled in an unintentionally humorous way. In general, the "Ekelnamen" (ugly name, i.e., assigned in spite or for lack of bribe) business is a myth. Many of the names volunteered as allegedly being of that type were actually fairly common among Gentiles too; others are not identifiably derogatory. Moreover, the evidence for many of these names ever having been assigned or used is very hard to find. See Beider's books on surnames for more. RogerLustig (talk) 16:13, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Is/Isn't/Ain't Jewish
Reverted Angelafromtheblue's deletion of Hollander from "general place-name-derived surnames." The problem is much more general and complicated, to wit: • Hardly any surnames are exclusively "Jewish"--most can be found among Gentiles as well. • "Holla[e]nder" is indeed the surname of many Jews. • On the other hand, it's not necessarily a toponym (i.e., derived from a place-name). "Hollaender" can also mean "dairyman." (So can "Schweitzer.") • Much of the text in this article, probably including the passage in question, is from the century-old Jewish Encyclopedia. There's little point in picking at individual items. Serious rewrites or amplifications of sections are more worthwhile. • Especially the parts that are simply wrong and/or outdated, like the "Ekelnamen" business.RogerLustig (talk) 16:05, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Pulverbestandtheil?
I seriously doubt that anyone would ridicule people by naming them like that. Stinker, piglet stomach.. wwwhat? Where's the citation for these names? Even though it's true that Yiddish/German-Jewish names are often funny (like Spielberg = play/game mountain or Liberman = loverman/dear man), these ones seem over the top and fake. I tried Googling Pulverbestandtheil but there are only 9 hits and all of them point to Wikipedia. --nlitement [talk] 11:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
