Talk:Jewish lobby

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Warning Under the discretionary sanctions imposed at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Palestine-Israel articles, this article has been placed on a one-revert rule. Any editor who makes more than one revert (and this revert must be discussed on the talk page) in a 24-hour period will be blocked. Please edit cooperatively, and seek consensus and compromise rather than edit-war. Moreschi If you've written a quality article... 21:46, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Earlier discussion

Contents

[edit] Dawkins

Without getting into the larger debates, I wonder if the Dawkins paragraph here could be rewritten as follows:

A comment by British evolutionary biologist and atheist writer Richard Dawkins in 2007 in an interview in the Guardian drew fire for its use of the phrase. Discussing the limited political clout of atheists in the United States, Dawkins said: "When you think about how fantastically successful the Jewish lobby has been, though, in fact, they are less numerous I am told - religious Jews anyway - than atheists and [yet they] more or less monopolise American foreign policy as far as many people can see. So if atheists could achieve a small fraction of that influence, the world would be a better place."[26] The comment was criticized by commentators who suggested that it played into traditional antisemitic stereotypes. David Cesarani, commenting in The Guardian on Richard Dawkins use of the term, states that "Mearsheimer and Walt would doubtless chide Dawkins for using the term 'Jewish lobby', which they studiously avoid in order to give no truck to anti-Jewish innuendo."[27]

This would seem improved, particularly under the heading. Otherwise it's also a bit strong to say he was accused of being antisemitic, as compared with perhaps equally many who said the comment was antisemitic, or said otherwise. Any thoughts appreciated. Mackan79 (talk) 01:03, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually your version adds a lot of opinion statements, which the original statement does not. My problem is a) the POV presentation, which I change below in bold, and b) there's just more material than the subject is worth, and therefore unbalanced. Either Cesarani or Gee statement should be eliminated, otherwise looks like POV piling on to me.
Richard Dawkins, a British evolutionary biologist and atheist writer, stated in an interview with the Guardian entitled "Atheists Arise": "When you think about how fantastically successful the Jewish lobby has been, though, in fact, they are less numerous I am told - religious Jews anyway - than atheists and [yet they] more or less monopolise American foreign policy as far as many people can see. So if atheists could achieve a small fraction of that influence, the world would be a better place." He was accused of "repeat[ing] the anti-Semitic conspiracy theories of the Islamic fundamentalists" and of making antisemitic claims.
IMHO: USE ONE OR OTHER - or shorten Gee to 25 words or less.
David Cesarani, commenting in The Guardian on Richard Dawkins use of the term, states that "Mearsheimer and Walt would doubtless chide Dawkins for using the term 'Jewish lobby', which they studiously avoid in order to give no truck to anti-Jewish innuendo."
Henry Gee, Senior Editor at Nature, and author of a number of non-fiction books, said that the he found Dawkins's words "frightening": On the face of it, Dawkins wishes the atheist lobby had the success of what he sees as the Jewish lobby. That’s fine – but only superficially. However, the term ‘Jewish lobby’ is deeply loaded, and has been used by anti-Semites to raise the age-old canard that the world is controlled by a global Jewish conspiracy, an accusation used by many regimes, ancient and modern, for discrimination against the Jews.[21]
Carol Moore 01:57, 20 March 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
Thanks, I saw after I posted that this related to the discussion more than I realized. I mainly wanted to address the first sentence, now stating "Richard Dawkins, a British evolutionary biologist and atheist writer, was accused of being antisemitic[24] [25] after using the term in an interview published in The Guardian." Otherwise it may be overdoing it, but I thought following the block quote with a summary sentence might better illustrate the general reactions to the statement, while deemphasizing the individual comments (and trying to make it a little more about the ideas and less about the individuals). However, if it's between several other options I may just leave it as a passing comment. Mackan79 (talk) 04:07, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
If you write "He was accused", you should say by whom, or there's a verifiability problem. Also a WP:BLP problem. As for what to say about Henry Gee's credentials, I'd suggest we just Wikilink his name; he has his own article. I agree that the Dawkins incident is overblown; Dawkins is against all religions (see The God Delusion). We might identify Dawkins as author of The God Delusion, since we have an article for that and it leads readers to his positions on that subject. Gee doesn't have any books with Wikipedia articles (although he has a reference in List of Middle-earth animals because he wrote "The Science of Middle Earth", for which, amazingly, no Tolkein fan has yet written an article.) --John Nagle (talk) 04:22, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Right, I was getting rid of the first sentence about accusations, and adding one after the quote to say that some thought it invoked stereotypes. Beyond that I think Cesarani's comment lends itself to discussion more than Gee's, though I think I'd still prefer finding neutral-type summaries where possible (Cesarani's comment in some context could be worthwhile). Mackan79 (talk) 04:48, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Good point about his book. Also I still think Cesarani is dumb speculation and POV, but length of Gee quote biggest problem. I'll give till end of day and put in new version per this discussion. Carol Moore 13:22, 20 March 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
Yes, it's also not entirely clear how much irony Cesarani intends as to Walt and Mearsheimer, which makes it hard to convert into something encyclopedic. I'd probably leave out Dawkins and keep the whole thing more to direct commentary than responses to what one or another person said, but I say that without having read the material in detail or knowing if it would work. If he's there, that's where I'm suggesting it could be incorporated into a discussion of some sort. Mackan79 (talk) 15:16, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Highbeam as a source

Someone has been putting in cites to Highbeam for material like Jerusalem Post articles. It would be appreciated if editors could find a better link. Highbeam is a pay site that archives other sites; if the material can be found on the original site, or in "archive.org", that's better. Thanks. --John Nagle (talk) 03:53, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm confused. You didn't put in highbeam? Anyway, still would be helpful to see exact quotes.

Carol Moore 13:18, 20 March 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

I think that the Highbeam links to the Jerusalem Post went in with this edit by Jgui. I haven't found them in an earlier edit, but there was so much reverting going on that I'm not sure I found the first occurrence of those links. I didn't put them in; I don't have a Highbeam account. I can't even get one; Highbeam doesn't seem to like Firefox users. --John Nagle (talk) 18:28, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Those Highbeam citations are sloppy, and may have to come out. The citation The term has been used to refer to groups in other countries which promote the special interests of their Jewish members. <ref>[http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P1-95807415.html Seven Days], [[Jerusalem Post]], June 18, 2004</ref> has problems. I found the cited pages in the Internet Archive here, and I couldn't find anything specific about a Jewish lobby, other than a plan by the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations to work with the U.S. Department of Homeland Security on some kind of terrorist alerting system. --John Nagle (talk) 19:04, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Jgui put his Highbeam search results on a subpage of his talk page [1] where Google found them. I still can't match those results to the full text of the pages in the Internet Archive. I think the "Seven Days" section has nothing to do with the subject; it's just a heading the Highbeam search engine picked up. So I'm on the wrong page. Can someone with a Highbeam account find the correct cite for this info? The Jerusalem Post pages are in the Internet Archive, but they're not searchable there. --John Nagle (talk) 19:21, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Latest edits

I've made the following edits:

  1. I've removed the statement by the non-notable Edward Tivnan
  2. I've removed the lengthy paragraph by Mearsheimer and Walt about the Israel lobby, in which they state that people who claim there is an Israel lobby are accused of antisemitism. We already quote M&W twice elsewhere in the article, so there's an obvious problem of WP:UNDUE, and even if there weren't, their comments are about the Israel lobby and so belong in the Israel lobby in the United States article (or perhaps the The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy article). As a reminder to editors here, this article is about the Jewish lobby, there is a separate article about the Israel lobby (more than one, actually, and all quite awful).
  3. I've restored the quote from David Cesarani, he's obviously relevant, and writes frequently on the topic of antisemitism. The use of the terms "speculative and unencyclopedic" to describe it, aside from being incorrect, have no relationship whatsoever to Wikipedia policy.
  4. I've restore the original intro; the re-wording by Boodles turned it into unsourced original research (and inaccurate to boot), and the alternative would have been to slap an "or" and "fact" tags on it, then delete in a couple of days once it became apparent that the claims couldn't possibly be sourced.
  5. I've removed the sentence "The term has been used to refer to groups in other countries which promote the special interests of their Jewish members." - as has been explained and proven before, this is just original research. Don't bring sources that use the term, bring sources that describe or explain it.
  6. I've unfortunately had to NPOV some wording that was POVd - we can't say that everyone "states" and "writes" things, but Vidal only "claims" them.
  7. I've re-organized the material so that the related material is together - for example, the M&W material and the criticism - the previous division was arbitrary and fairly nonsensical. Jayjg (talk) 20:55, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
The zoologist's scratching post remains an UNDUE/RS problem, but other than that this isn't half bad Jay.--G-Dett (talk) 22:40, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
Henry Gee was restored to the article by Carol Moore[2], and rightfully so, as he's as good a source as others used in this article. For example, we quote extensively from Walter John Raymond's Dictionary of Politics which was, of course, self-published. Also, WP:BLP applies to comments made about Gee, even on Talk: pages. Jayjg (talk) 23:06, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't understand your post. Walter John Raymond was a political scientist, obviously better suited than a zoologist as a source for this article. His book is a standard scholarly reference work that's gone to seven editions. He did indeed found Brunswick Publishing Corporation – is this what you mean when you say Dictionary of politics: Selected American and Foreign Political and Legal Terms is "self-published"? The implication being that this 760-page reference work, written by a PoliSci scholar and housed in the libraries of most major research universities in the world, is the RS-equivalent of a zoologist's online diary?
Incidentally, my description of that online diary as a "scratching post" etc. comes straight from Gee himself; that's what he calls the blog you're using as your source.
But see, in taking these ridiculous propositions seriously, I am again encouraging your problem, "enabling" it as the water-cooler psychologists would say.--G-Dett (talk) 23:40, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
He founded the publishing house precisely so that he could publish his "dictionary"; read his bio. Jayjg (talk) 21:29, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm aware of the unsourced statement to that effect in his WP article (which may even be true, for all you or I know). Your attempt to equate as sources for this article a standard political-science reference work, 760 pages long and in its seventh edition, to a zoologist's blogpost, was, nevertheless, a fatuous piece of trolling.--G-Dett (talk) 23:42, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
It's actually a comment on a blogpost, to be precise. I think even he'd probably be surprised to find it in Wikipedia, though I admit it covers the issue well enough that I don't mind including it. Mackan79 (talk) 01:38, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
BLP also says we don't use comments from blogs as sources. I'm a bit mystified as to why Edward Tivnan, author of THE LOBBY: Jewish Political Power and American Foreign Policy. is "non-notable" but you then claim that Cesarani is obviously relevant. Catchpole (talk) 23:15, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
When you mention BLP, which living person are you referring to? Jayjg (talk) 21:29, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Richard Dawkings. Catchpole (talk) 11:05, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
I think you mean "Richard Dawkins". I've removed Henry Gee and restored Tivnan. Jayjg (talk) 00:51, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Jostle my beanbag and rouse me if you get a straight answer to this. Tivnan's book was published by Simon & Schuster, reviewed by the New York Times, etc. Jay's structural revisions aren't half-bad, but the RS-sophistries appear to be his usual street hussle, same old scam.--G-Dett (talk) 23:40, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

POV Problems with Jayjg Edits that Need Changing

  • Word count shows User:Jayjg’s new edit gives the article an even more unbalanced emphasis on anti-semitic uses:
    • NPOV Old Version: Descriptive: 2026 -- Antisemitic: 3454 (Both criticism about 1200)
    • POV New Jayjg Version: Descriptive: 2031 -- Antisemitic: (3617 plus most of Criticsm 1736) = 5353
  • ”Antisemitic/ and or Perjorative” section heading is both WP:OR and WP:POV. Where is the quote saying that highly critical and “perjorative” criticisms of specific acts of any “Jewish Lobby” supporting various state crimes against humanity in Israel or elsewhere is the same as antisemitic? (It would have to be balanced by quotes contesting that allegation of course.)
  • The Lasky quote doesn’t even make sense. the whole quote. His statement also doesn't make sense, more importantly it's WP:Undue and speculative, not to mention confusing and unedifying. Like Cesarani, sticking in people's odd ball opinions does not added to sum of knowledge and just POV_pushing.
  • The older (NPOV) version's two criticism sections, following the Descriptive and Antisemitic sections, make it clear what is being criticized and are NPOV. Your one criticism section leaves mostly POV section criticizing alleged antisemites and to average reader it makes no sense why it is called criticism.
  • The relevant removed M&W quote from early 2006 clearly conflates the Israel and Jewish lobbies. Their statements more than a year later that Jewish lobby is not synonymous with Israel lobby evidently was a change of mind. (So the comments should be dated.) But then it verifiability, not truth that matters, right? We do need a quote that makes that fact even clearer, of course, since it is DONE all the time, just not clearly described as being done all the time.
  • Removing Edward Tivnan, author of THE LOBBY: Jewish Political Power and American Foreign Policy is POV pushing against WP:NPOV policy.
  • Keeping Ceasarani in is also POV pushing which is against WP:NPOV policy. (Note, I don’t have a problem with a blog on a reliable source, since those are usually passed by editors.)

I will therefore be making above changes others haven't. reverting the whole article back to this version tomorrow leaving for Jayjg’s minor style edits, lansky quote if it is ever clarified, David Johnson incident and leaving out “countries” sentence until proper quotes are presented. I’ll let others argue on lead since I don’t have strong opinion right now. Carol Moore 01:47, 22 March 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

Carol:
  1. You can't decide what an article should contain based on word counts, and arbitrary decisions about which types of usage should have more material devoted to them. We have to go where the sources lead us, not decide beforehand what the article should contain, then try to support that thesis - please stop doing so.
  2. Regarding the section title itself, Boodles added that:[3] I don't feel strongly either way.
  3. Regarding something being "confusing and unedifying", it, like your comments about Cesarani, appear to have nothing whatsoever to do with policy. Can you please relate your concerns with specific material directly back to policy?
  4. The version I have restored is the NPOV version; please re-read it and the relevant WP:NPOV policy.
  5. Regarding the M&W quote about the Israel lobby, it simply cannot go in here, because it is about the Israel lobby. No version of this article can contain it, though it may, as pointed out, belong in the Israel lobby in the United States article (or perhaps the The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy article). It simply cannot stay, because it is about the Israel lobby. Please respect policy.
  6. Regarding "Edward Tivnan", you have not explained what you mean by "POV pushing", nor have you explained who he is or why he would be relevant. Please do so.
  7. Regarding Cesarani, your complaint has now changed from "speculative and unencyclopedic" to "POV pushing", but, again, you haven't stated exactly which part of which policy applies. Cesarani is an expert on antisemitism, who commented directly on Dawkins use of the term "Jewish lobby". Please direct your concerns to specific elements of policy you feel are being violated. Quote the policy, and explain how Cesarani's quote violates it.
Thanks. Jayjg (talk) 21:29, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Just noticed Jayjg's longer reply directly so will insert my other reply as part of that...
  • Word count just to make clear how much material removed
  • Boodles, I'm taking out perjoratively again for reasons mentioned above.
  • With Cesarani, I'll just agree with Wikipedia:Blp#Reliable_sources which clearly says blogs can't be used to talk about living persons (which Cesarani did on Dawkins). I think this policy needs to be changed so that major mainstream edited blogs don't apply - or at least to mention that blog entries that generate mainstream news should be included. Nevertheless, I think this is one more strike vs. Cesarani quote. (See talk above for my other strikes.) In wikipedia, avoiding BLP defamations, as you know, rules. One place you can revert 10 times a day!
  • RE; Tivan I agree what others said, see their talk refs

Carol Moore 16:45, 24 March 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

  • The amount of material removed is irrelevant; what matters is following what the sources say.
  • Regarding Cesarani, this is the third argument you've made for removal; however, unlike regulars blogs, the Guardian's blog is edited in the same way as the newspaper itself: The site is edited by Georgina Henry, former deputy editor of the Guardian. Matt Seaton is the deputy editor, Brian Whitaker is a commissioning editor, Theresa Malone is chief sub and Mary Clarke is the editorial assistant. Richard Adams and Conor Clarke are commissioning editors based in Washington.
  • Regarding "Tivan", try to use your own words. Jayjg (talk) 00:45, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Four new quotes

The first makes important point.

1. Linguistics professor Hagit Borer asserts that the “Israel Lobby” is “also known as the Jewish Lobby, or as AIPAC (the American-Israel Public Affairs Committee)...” REF:Transcript of KPFK radio program Debating the Primacy of The Pro-Israel Lobby, The Debate Between James Petras and Norman Finkelstein, moderated by Hagit Borer, April 18, 2007.

2. Do Zionists Run America? by Allen Ruff. Review of James Petras, The Power of Israel in the United States(Atlanta: Clarity Press, 2006) What sets Petras' work apart, first off, is his dropping or blurring of distinctions. The terms "Jewish lobby," "Israel lobby," and "Zionist lobby" are used interchangeably." He adds: "In an apparent attempt to deflect criticism, he states that he is justified in using the term "Jewish lobby" since that is what the Israelis use when discussing political support in the United States -- as if adopting the Zionist movement's cynical appropriation of all things Jewish serves any progressive purpose.

3. Challenging the power of the Israel Lobby: What should be done? James Petras, 09.29.2006 A number of writers have recently written critical articles or reviews about the power of the pro-Israel or Jewish Lobby and its influence on US policy in the Middle East. Most of these writings emphasize the power of the lobby over Congress, the two major parties (especially the Democrats) and the Executive branch. Some even describe the pro-Israel lobbies and the allied Jewish federations, the numerous propaganda institutes described as ‘think tanks’, publications as well as their influence or control over the mass media, from Hollywood, the print media, television to corporate “public” radio. However these critics and analysts paint themselves into a corner, attributing to the Jewish lobby so much power as to virtually incapacitate any effort to counter its influence and change the direction of US policy. The image of a near-omniscient and omnipotent Jewish lobby overlooks its vulnerability and significant issues around which an opposition or counter-hegemonic movement can be organized in the United States.

4. Israel Lobby's Pull Pales Next to Evil Saudi Input By Youssef Ibrahim September 25, 2007 That there is a Jewish lobby in America concerned with the well-being of Israel is a silly question. It is insane to ask whether the 6 million American Jews should be concerned about the 6 million Israeli Jews, particularly in view of the massacre of another 6 million Jews in the Holocaust. It's elementary, my dear Watson: Any people who do not care for their own are not worthy of concern. And what the Israel lobby does is what all ethnic lobbies — Greek, Armenian, Latvian, Irish, Cuban, and others — do in this democracy. Carol Moore 04:24, 22 March 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

Who is Hagit Borer? What do you think the Ibrahim quote adds? Jayjg (talk) 21:35, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Hagit Borer (shown in either blue or red), is a linguistics professor, who moderated a debate on our subject at hand.
Youssef Ibrahim, possibly answering a rhetorical question, states what he thinks should be obvious, and why, and then goes on to note what other similar ethnic groups do, which brings to his quote both legitimacy and NPOV. He also notes that the largest Jewish population (US), supports a similar population in Medinat Yisrael, because a similar number were exterminated during the Holocaust. This last thought notes anti-Semitism, which along with earlier 19th-Century, European incidents, was the primary cause and impetus for the establishment of political Zionism by Herzl, et.al.
The second (Ruff) ref (which is not a rough ref) brings in the very important term "Zionist lobby", which is historical fact and easily RS-able, that might otherwise be argued on spurious OR grounds. It is however, the link that that establishes the 'lobby' group within the Jews of the world as well as in America.[4][5] (Other than some lead-in, I am starting the 'History section' there; My (historical perspective) POV is that the terms should not be "used interchangeably," but at times may be used that way (after all three were established, and have since been tied-at-the-hip. Comments?) The question asked, "Do Zionists Run America?" is extremely important, because it highlights part of the 'Israeli(Jewish?) identity crisis'and tends to confirm the, as yet single, Tivnan quote now in the article.
The third (Petras) ref brings up issues that must be included in an encyclopedic discussion of our subject; they are basic and illuminating in regard to understanding the subject, rather than just describing it; I see it as one of those Wiki-basic "for the benefit of the readers" things. With a quick step to my soapbox, his last sentence happens to (somewhat) state my greatest personal fear concerning our subject, because Messianic fervor for Eretz Israel may become detremental to support for and longevity of Medinat Yisrael, given the 'modern' world's view of equal, human and civil rights for all peoples. An recent indication of how this difference can go awry is indicated here Regards, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 03:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
CO48, again, who is Hagit Borer? The website that linked to her told me nothing about her really. Jayjg (talk) 00:47, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Re. interchangeability of terms, it is obvious from any google alert subscription or internet search that in most discourse by everyone from Jews to antisemities the terms ARE used fairly interchangably. These quotes were best I could find so far that reflect that fact. The critics we quote here are some of the few people who object to that.
Obviously the historical link between use of terms Zionist and Jewish lobby needs to be clarified but this is not place for hsitry of all these lobbies - Israel lobby articles better place.
While I have not had time to play with it, my idea was to put quotes that make interchangability point briefly in descriptive section, with Australian BB ADC quote first to put "descriptive" uses right up front.
Let's try to avoid long soap boxes because it tempts others to do so - don't start me on libertarian property rights and right to self-determination only on justly acquired property ;-) (A view rejected by many on both sides of issue.)
Carol Moore 17:19, 24 March 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
Carol, the questions remain unanswered:
1) Who is Hagit Borer, and why would we quote her? Please be very explicit about the response.
2) Who is Allen Ruff, and why would we quote him in Monthly Review, a socialist magazine run by committed Marxists? The webzine and author seem rather extremist; for example, the section in the quote refers to "Israel's racist and expansionist practices".
3) Given your putative objection to "self-published" sources, why would you include a self-published quote from Petras' personal website? Also, please note, Petras again simply uses the term, but does not describe or define it.
Jayjg (talk) 04:03, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
  • To start, your edit summary reads: (Carol, I would have hoped that you would work through the mediation, rather than continually trying to force policy-violating material into the article. In any event, see Talk: and the mediation) Please tell me where this is a rule of mediation. Also, I gave you a whole week to comment on this or let me bring to mediation.
  • 1)Your only and single question or comment before was on Borer - therefore I had to assume you had NO problem with the rest of the quotes. And I answered it by putting her faculty summary as one of two references after her name.
  • 2) Allen Ruff "historian and long-time Madison political activist, author, staff member at Rainbow Bookstore Cooperative and radio voice on WORT (89.9fm, Madison), is a founding member of US Out Now, the Madison Area Peace Coalition, Jews for Equal Justice, and a member of Solidarity." Monthly Review is on wikipedia. You thought that was sufficient when you compared DissidentVoice.Org (knocked off wikipedia for no references) to Jewish Virtual Library (which is still on wikipedia despite having no references). What evidence do you provide per Wikipedia:Rs#Extremist_sources that this source is "widely acknowledged" as extremist?
  • 3) In wikipedia policy there is a difference between self-published sources libeling people per Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Sources and self-published sources which are OK per Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published_sources_.28online_and_paper.29: Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. However, caution should be exercised when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so. Now I wasn't sure how much might be relevant but since no one had commented, I had to wing it. Carol Moore 16:29, 30 March 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

[edit] Verifying Summaries through sharing original text

As you may have noticed I've been frustrated by this issue and brought it up in mediation. Waiting for Jayjg response:

  • Safire quote - Since we do not know what the original quote is, it could be it reads something like Some people in England refer to the "Jewish Lobby." "Kosher Lobby" is an even more perjorative term for the "Israel Lobby. So it is important to know the exact quote to see if what is written is an accurate - OR inaccurate - summary. If we don't get exact quote we should delete it.
  • Lasky quote - looking at source I think below is a more accurate, less confusing summary. Also brings up question of where this quote belongs since "unfortunate" does not mean "antisemitic" (and neither does perjorative, including in this context.) New suggested description:

Michael Lasky, author of The Language of Journalism, notes that Alexander Walker uses the "unfortunate phrase about the 'Jewish Lobby'" when he writes about "the 'Nazi'" films of Leni Riefenstahl. Lasky "imagines" Walker was not being "perjorative" but "only wanted to suggest that he agreed with 'the Jews' in thinking that those famous Third Reich documentaries were more propaganda than art."

  • Levey-Mendes quote - Given the above I think we should delete this if we don't get the exact quote for verification (quoted part sounds innocuous): According to Geoffrey Brahm Levey and Philip Mendes, the term is used in Australia as a pejorative description of the way in which the Jewish community influences the Liberal Party "by talking to its leaders and making them aware of Jewish wishes and views".REF:Geoffrey Brahm Levey, Philip Mendes. Jews and Australian Politics, Sussex Academic Press, 2004, ISBN 1903900727, p. 91.

And I do think this is a WP:OR attempt to conflate perjorative with antisemitic without providing a source that does so explicitly. Carol Moore 00:54, 25 March 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

  • Carol, Safire is quoted exactly in the footnote. The original quote is right there, there's no "summary" involved.
  • This is what Lasky says:

    The unfortunate phrase about a "Jewish lobby" was also used by that otherwise unexceptionable stalwart of the Evening Standard, Alexander Walker, writing about the "Nazi" films of Leni Riefenstahl. I imagine he didn't intend in pejoratively but only wanted to suggest that he agreed with "the Jews" in thinking that those famous Third Reich documentaries were more propaganda than art.

  • My summary was Michael Lasky describes the term as an "unfortunate phrase", and "imagines" that Alexander Walker's use of it while writing about the "Nazi" films of Leni Riefenstahl was not intended pejoratively. My summary is accurate and more succinct, as is obvious.
  • Given the other summaries were accurate, this hyper-questioning of quotes is unreasonable. Nevertheless, I've provided the exact quotation. Jayjg (talk) 01:17, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for finally clarifying Safire on the mediation page.
I think your Lasky summary is *really bad* because it took me reading the original twice to figure out what you are saying - so I assume average reader would have more problems. Can others comment?
Thanks for Levey-Mendes - actual quote does make more credible. So now the question is - does pejorative mean critical disapproval or derogatory demeaning?

Carol MooreCarolmooredc {talk}

Regarding the meaning of "pejorative", of what relevance is your question? Jayjg (talk) 02:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
"Pejorative" means "having a disparaging, derogatory, or belittling effect or force." So it is refering to the derogatory meaning. As for Lasky, I think I understand it perfectly fine. I don't see what the problem with Jayjg's summary is. Where it belongs, well we don't have an "offensive" or "derogatory" section, both of which would be good places to put it, so antisemitic seems fine to me. Yahel Guhan 04:29, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Use of Pejorative here is WP:OR and WP:SYN The meaning of Pejorative is disapproving, derogatory, derisive, dyslogistic, disparaging or belittling. Pejorative does not by itself mean 'bigoted" or "antisemtic." (Though obviously some pejorative comments could be.)
You only can say pejorative means antisemitic if you find a very reliable source's opinion that any/all "pejorative" comments, writings, etc. about the "Jewish Lobby" are defacto antisemtic - or - if "pejorative" is used in a sentence with quoted negative comments that are described as antisemtic. Therefore, the following statements are all WP:OR and should be removed - OR - moved to a NEW section on "Pejorative and Critical Comments" about "Jewish Lobby." (Some WP:RS comments by or about Petras', for example, could be there too.)
  • According to Geoffrey Brahm Levey and Philip Mendes, the term is used in Australia as a pejorative description of the way in which the Jewish community influences the Liberal Party "by talking to its leaders and making them aware of Jewish wishes and views".
  • William Safire writes that in the United Kingdom "Jewish lobby" is used as an "even more pejorative" term for "the 'Israel lobby'".
  • Michael Lasky describes the term as an "unfortunate phrase", and "imagines" that Alexander Walker's use of it while writing about the "Nazi" films of Leni Riefenstahl was not intended pejoratively.
Carol Moore 02:00, 26 March 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
Carol, when the section title used to say "Pejorative and/or antisemitic", you objected to it - we can return that title if you like. Now, if you're concerned about Titles in the article being Original Research, can you explain which sources describe the term as "Descriptive"? Because we've got a whole section with that title - see, for example, this edit, where you insert that Title. Jayjg (talk) 03:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
  • Re. Equating pejorative with antisemitic being WP:OR - that now has more specific mediation section
  • If the content equating pejorative with antisemitic is WP:OR, adding a section title that WP:OR equates them is just as WP:OR.
  • You have not answered question on equating pejorative with antsemitism being WP:OR, per above. Hope you will answer on mediation page.
  • Descriptive is discussed for second time in mediation in this mediation section.Carol Moore 14:01, 26 March 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
Since your general response to all questions is "it is mediation discussion," at this point, we should probably have all continued discussion to the mediation page. Yahel Guhan 16:05, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I actually am encouraging people to go over there by including links. But since requested, here's what I put there, which I think has been stated above in several forms, but maybe not:
Why "Descriptive" Section is Not WP:OR'

The B'nai B'rith Anti-Defamation Commission of Australia defines the "Jewish lobby" as "an unwieldy group of individuals and organisations devoted to supporting the needs and interests of the Jewish community." The article notes that: "The assumption, however, that Jews have a disproportionate power and influence over decision making is what transforms a descriptive reality about politics to an antisemitic argument about Jewish power."[2]

  • Even if this is not sufficient, WP:NPOV encourages all views to be used if have WP:RS. And it is customary to give a section SOME title. "Descriptive" certainly seems NPOV.Carol Moore 18:44, 26 March 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
Carol, do any of the sources describe the term "Jewish lobby" as "Descriptive"? I don't see any that do; rather, that is how you have described them. That's what makes it original research. As for the NPOV tutorial, it is neither policy, nor well written, nor relevant in this case. Jayjg (talk) 03:53, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Even the passer-by can see that "descriptive" is applied to the term "Jewish Lobby" (which I myself dislike, I wonder why we have to have such a dangerous article) is the word used in a heavily pro-Israel "The assumption, however, that Jews have a disproportionate power and influence over decision making is what transforms a descriptive reality about politics to an antisemitic argument about Jewish power." I'm tempted to put a magnifying glass on every edit made by Jayjg to see how many are aimed at calling people antisemitic. 86.156.111.207 (talk) 11:14, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
There is nothing "dangerous" about this article as long as it reflects reality that most uses are neutral or merely critical, not antisemitic. FYI, in this case I stuck that quote in to make the point about "descriptive" being an acceptable neutral title for a section. Now it is looking like definitions and other categories may be better, so that sentence isn't as necessary, though it does make a valid point. There are antisemitic uses - but usually in context of antisemitic pieces filled with generalizations and slurs that obviously are bigoted. I don't think the two examples (Dawkins and Davies) quoted are truly antisemitic, just clumbsy (as are many comments by people who have not learned to talk about ethnic lobbying issues in a politically correct way), though people who are paranoid or playing political games might. 11:48, 31 March 2008 (UTC)Carol MooreCarolmooredc {talk}

Outdent and bye -- Historically, regarding the Jewish lobby, the world has witnessed the following influential items/events (amongst many others) in historical order that should be considered for the sake of NPOV:

For those truly interested in learning, you might like this [6], Israel's Defense Line: Her Friends and Foes in Washington, by Isaiah L. Kenen. It is the oldest primary RS specifically on this article that I have found to date. I hope it helps and know Jay won't like it; I dont know if it has 'Jewish lobby' in it specifically. The main question now for editors and NPOV is only the degree of one’s Zion-ishness and how much anti-Semitophobia is self-attached.

So what about the Jewish lobby? Well, after two month's investment of time and effort and Mediation's locking other interested editors out, I will let you argue with Jay, el.al. and I will generally see you and him on other articles with more chances of progress. Jay, you won, see you elsewhere, some place where the anti-Semitism Info Box hasn’t been hung yet. Maybe, hopefully, you will leave that ‘chip on your shoulder' here. Regards, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 07:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

The historical material you mention above belongs in the Israel Lobby article - which I notice does NOT have such a section. I'd say get going on it there. And there should be a link mentioning that from this article. That it was and is called the Jewish or Zionist lobby as well certainly is relevant and we've developed some good quotes for that purpose here. Carol Moore 13:03, 2 April 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

[edit] Surely this should be merged into Jewish conspiracy?

'Jewish lobby' as used in this article is just another term for the old 'Jewish world-dominating conspiracy', just with slightly more honesty than Zionist lobby. John Nevard (talk) 05:19, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Evidently you didn't bother to read the article which includes mainstream and non-antisemtic uses of the word - not to mention the last two years of talk about all the Jewish and mainstream uses of the term. And while it is verboten to mention in the article itself the many USES of the phrase by Jewish and mainstream sources, a simple internet search will show how often it is used that way. Also you'll notice that the only two "examples" of anti-semitic use are Davies (who was merely critical of Israel lobbyists) and Dawkins (who was trying to use Jewish community organizing skills as a positive role model) so even this article only talks about the phenomena, doesn't even illustrate it. Carol Moore 11:07, 9 April 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
You know, possibly lost with the whole Dawkins thing is whether you can even apply this paradigm to someone who is specifically talking about religious lobbies and the need for another atheist lobby. Is there not a difference between someone writing a paper on the "Jewish lobby" in the abstract, vs. someone talking about the Atheist lobby vs. the Christian lobby vs. the Jewish lobby? It seems to get into whether this is always intended as a phrase or sometimes simply as an adjective and a noun. Mackan79 (talk) 11:44, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Working alternative to current version based on Mediation discussions

I have edited the existing version of the article, which Shell just unblocked (thank you), in order to produce a proposed alternative to the current version based on the Mediation discussions that we have been having. Please note that I DID make changes that are still being discussed in Mediation: I am not attempting to pretend that these issues are all resolved and that this version fixes all of the Mediation disputes.

I have, however, tried to make my edits consistent with any compromises that have been proposed in Mediation, and I have put aside topics that Shell has stated are "closed" and I have left out those edits.

My primary goal is to give the editors who are involved in Mediation against Jayjg a working version of the document that is up to date - the last version that we all agreed to, and which led to the start of this Mediation, is some months old and has had significant changes by Jayjg and others since that time. My goal, then, is to produce a working version of an alternative to the Jayjg document that the other editors can coalesce around. This also has the benefit of making the differences between the mediation groups' versions of the article explicit.

Hopefully it will be seen that the changes I have made are consistent with WP policies and guidelines, in the goal of producing a better version of the article acceptable to all involved editors.

To clarify and enumerate the changes that I made:

1) First let me state what I did NOT do: I did NOT remove any cited text from the existing version of the article as last edited by Jayjg and as frozen in time for the last month. I added some cited text, I reordered the sections to give them a more logical structure consistent with other WP articles, and I made changes as discussed in Mediation.

2) Added USLobbies box consistent with its definition. This had been removed and has not been discussed so far in Mediation.

3) Moved the dictionary definition to the top of the definition section.

4) Moved "Criticism" section to follow the "Definition" section, and renamed it "Definition criticisms" since these are all criticisms of the "Definition" and should therefore follow the "Definition" section.

5) Moved B'nai B'rith description and criticism to the "Definition criticisms" section since it is primarily a criticism of the definition as being inadequate due to the term's sometimes Antisemitic tone; also it is a good transition to the next section "Antisemitic and/or pejorative claim"

6) Changed M&W paragraph in "Definition criticisms" to be consistent with Carol's proposed compromise (of adding context to an existing quote), which has not been further discussed or resolved in Mediation, but seems a reasonable working compromise to consider.

7) Added Bard's experience at AIPAC (in addition to his current employment) as currently under discussion in Mediation.

8) Left the "Antisemitic and/or pejorative use" section unchanged, except to change the name of the section to "Antisemitic and/or pejorative claim", since this is a disputed usage, and should not be stated in the section title in WP's voice.

9) Reintroduced the "Antisemitic claim criticism" section which had been deleted.

10) Added back the full M&W paragraph to this section which was being disputed in Mediation, but is now archived. The compromise suggested was to include more context for this quote.

11) Added back M&W current employment titles, consistent with the proposed compromise in Mediation.

12) Moved "Activities" section to follow all the discussions of the meanings of the term. It was out of place in its previous location, and should be located after all the definitions and meanings of the term have been presented.

13) Added to the "Activities" section another quote discussing Jewish lobby from the Tivnan book where he claims to date the start of a "full-fledged Jewish lobby" to 1943.

I will also put a note to this edit on the Mediation page. Thank you, Jgui (talk) 15:52, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Looks like a good step forward. It covers the three main uses of the term, talks about what the Jewish lobby does, and covers the antisemitism issue from a neutral point of view. so we seem to be basically on track. I may have some minor comments to offer later, but for now, I don't see any pressing need to touch the article. Thanks. --John Nagle (talk) 17:15, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
As a simple matter, the mediation concluded that there was no reason to add Bard's 15 year old experience to his description, nor any agreement to include the M&W irrelevancies about where they made their statement. Nor, of course, did we agree to include the material that M&W write about the Israel lobby, since this article is about "Jewish lobby", not the Israel lobby. The USLobbies infobox was removed, since the "Jewish lobby" is not a defined lobby in any sense, particularly the sense used in the infobox. The B'nai Brith definition is as good as any other, and there was no reason to move it down, much less remove it from the definitions section entirely. The division of the criticisms into "definitions criticisms" and "antisemitism criticisms" is fairly nonsensical and arbitrary - for example, M&W dispute the term itself, they do not provide "antisemitism critism". This was a low blow, quite poorly done, jgui. Jayjg (talk) 00:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
What about all the other changes? So were Jayjg's recent mass changes within the one revert rule? Yoo Hoo Moreschi. Carol Moore 01:52, 29 April 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
We're in a mediation, and the second the article was unprotected Jgui decided to do an entire POV re-write, based on the false claim that the mediation supported it, and in fact, inserting material that the mediation specifically rejected. And you, Carol, seem interested only in getting people sanctioned, rather than working on the mediation. Jayjg (talk) 02:06, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Jayjg, you have to read more carefully and avoid accusing other editors of making "claims" that they have never made. It leads to a poisoned atmosphere and is definitely not consistent with WP behavior guidelines. Thank you, Jgui (talk) 07:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
Jayjg, the mediation "concluded" nothing of the sort about Bard, because that is not a decided issue. Nor is the M&W paragraph about Jewish lobby (not Israel lobby) resolved. Although these are not yet resolved, it is not at all clear why you think "your" version is the one that must be here while mediation is ongoing - could you perhaps explain that? Thank you, Jgui (talk) 06:54, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
If you claim the issues were not resolved, then why would you insert the disputed text, claiming it was based on the results of the mediation? Jayjg (talk) 01:49, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Jayjg, did you read what I wrote above? Please stop putting words in my mouth that I never said - it is not fair and it is not productive. Instead could you please answer the question I asked you - it is not at all clear why you think "your" version is the one that must be here while mediation is ongoing - could you perhaps explain that? Thank you, Jgui (talk) 03:38, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Please review begging the question. "My" version is this one. Note the difference between that version and the current one.[7] Jayjg (talk) 00:27, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree that the issues were not fully resolved (i.e., whether it was important that Bard worked at AIPAC; left it that more evidence needs to be found; perhaps Jqui mentioning which publication he worked on this time was that info).
However, I also agree it's good to bring the proposed changes here first or at least only make a few changes at a time, with different editors having input. Meanwhile hopefully Moreschi will tell us just what he means by one revert, per WP:revert, so we can stop this mass reverting.
I have a list of things will bring up soon, some settle in mediation, some not brought up or dismissed as too complicated or not resolvable. Carol Moore 12:49, 29 April 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

[edit] What DOES One Revert Rule Mean for this article?

I asked Moreschi on his/her talk page and didn't get a response. Perhaps we could agree on what it means? Thanks. Carol Moore 01:19, 28 April 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

[edit] Lobbying is good.

Lobbying is a necessary part of american democracy. Lobbyists in general and Jewish groups were/are responsible for connecting politicians to their people. Such lobbyists are responsible for getting the USA out of Vietnam, the blacks the right to vote, cutting down on car emissions and getting noriega. Lobbyists pushed the USA to enter WW2 to stop the German army. Lobby is not a bad word. AIPAC, J Street, even the church are lobbies as is the military industry. In fact AIPAC is the 6th lobby and the church is number 3.

Jewish lobbies have been behind the USA leaving Vietnam, public housing efforts, veteran administration rights and the development of internet. Lobbying needs a defender here. It's not a bad activity and I'll stand up as its defender. The Jewish lobbies are big strong but the church lobby is even bigger and in favor nowadays of the same things AIPAC wants: entering Iran for example. Jewish Lobby is in step with America's way of public involvement in feedback to the gov. AIPAC or J Street have interests in the Middle East but these are on the heels of general USA democratic expansion.

raquel samper
comunidad judia murcia
jewish community murcia spain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Murcia fluent (talk • contribs) 12:59, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Added capitalization and line breaks to above for readability, but changed no words. --John Nagle (talk) 01:40, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
We don't have anything about the J Street project. This is a new Jewish lobbying group, pro-Israel but not right-wing like AIPAC. "J Street is the political arm of the pro-Israel, pro-peace movement." Writeups in Haaretz [8], the BBC [9], the Jerusalem Post [10], and the Washington Post [11], so we have some reliable sources. Some sources use the term "Jewish lobby"; the BBC, Salon, Slate, al-Jazeera, Haaretz, the Jewish Chronicle and the Jewish World Review do, the New York Times does not. Here there's a clear distinction between the "Jewish lobby" and the usual AIPAC-headed "Israel lobby". --John Nagle (talk) 06:27, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
It is amazing to me that more than half of google alert articles (and blog entries) describe it as a "Jewish" lobby but frankly haven't read most of them to see if they describe/define it in anyway other than mentioning in passing. But kept links for future reference. Again, it's a matter of finding a relevant and enlighting quote or summary of statement. Carol Moore 13:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
The political landscape is changing. "J Street" seems to be positioning itself as a player should Obama win, but hasn't done much yet. AIPAC has close ties to the neocons and the Bush Administration. Something to watch; it's early yet. --John Nagle (talk) 16:21, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually, we do have an article on J Street. Jayjg (talk) 23:58, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
True. "J Street" is about a month old at this point. Much press coverage, so the organization is notable, but it hasn't done much yet. They haven't even decided which candidates to endorse. (There's a form on their web site for suggestions.) --John Nagle (talk) 17:06, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Which reminds me. Where did the "Lobbying" template go? Time to put it back? --John Nagle (talk) 05:47, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
It was just for lobbying in US and term is used worldwide. Carol Moore 20:32, 20 May 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

[edit] Interchangeabililty of Jewish Lobby and Israel Lobby

  • Bad news is Mediation is stalled again over some misunderstanding... Can't remember what, at this point... Update: Hadn't gotten that far up my Watch List and low and behold it's back in business...
  • Good News is I just found this Guidelines (which will be pointed out does not trump policy, but then we make policy, don't we?)

Wikipedia:These are not original research "Identifying synonymous terms, and collecting related information under a common heading is also part of writing an encyclopedia. Reliable sources do not always use consistent terminology, and it is sometimes necessary to determine when two sources are calling the same thing by different names. This does not require a third source to state this explicitly, as long as the conclusion is obvious from the context of the sources. Articles should follow the naming conventions in selecting the heading under which the combined material is presented." Carol Moore 02:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}

J Street seems to be referred to in the press as a "Jewish lobby", in contrast to AIPAC, "America's Pro-Israel Lobby". If the terms used to be interchangeable in a US context, they no longer are. Not sure what the article should say about this. --John Nagle (talk) 03:19, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
In my google alerts I have noticed that it is referred to that way a lot more than other groups, but then it is getting more press than a lot of groups cause it's new and perhaps more progressive media want to give it attention. On the other hand, the "J" in name "J street" may be causing an unconscious alliteration that spurs use of Jewish Lobby. And some right wing media may be trying to pull it into the fold by reminding it (and us) that it is first and foremost a "Jewish" lobby and should not go against Jews. And critics of Israel - and antisemites who use the phrase disparagingly - may want to remind readers that the group is still pretty conservative, for example supporting[ the Oslo accords which created bantustans.
A good solid WP:RS quote clearly making the point would be unassailable, of course. What's needed is mere recognition that phrases are used interchangeably by all sorts of sources, from mainstream to extremist antisemites, and context is usually only way to know how it is being used. Should be noncontroversial, but....Carol Moore 10:27, 30 May 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
It's getting interesting. J Street has been successful in getting McCain to reject the endorsement of John Hagee a (very) right-wing Christian pastor. Now JStreet is working on getting Lieberman to distance himself from Hagee. [12] Hagee has close ties to AIPAC; he gave the keynote speech at AIPAC's convention last year. [13]. J Street has been successful in drawing attention to some of the more embarrassing alliances between the Christian far-right, major Republicans, and AIPAC. For the first time in a long time, mainstream media have to distinguish between the Israel lobby, the Jewish lobby, and the AIPAC lobby. Newsweek writes about J Street in Washington's new Jewish lobby presses Israel. Arutz Sheva refers to J Street as an "American Jewish lobby. [14]. Use of the term "Jewish lobby" in Google News seems to be way up. --John Nagle (talk) 18:57, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Allegations of antisemitic usage

I was looking through the references in the "Antisemitic and/or pejorative use" section, and noted that there are no references to antisemitic usages of the term. All we have are allegations of such usages from partisan writers.

Susan Jacob's paper just mentions the "Jewish lobby" in passing, in a section titled "(Some) antiSemitic themes." No examples are given. (When she writes about discrimination about Blacks or Arabs, she writes about higher incarceration rates, high numbers of deaths in custody, and underrepresentation in the political process. None of those issues, she writes, apply to Jews in the UK.)

Robert S. Wistrich (of the "International Center for the Study of Anti-Semitism, Hebrew University of Jerusalem") is not properly footnoted. The footnote is just a link to Jacob's paper, which doesn't mention Wistrich. That needs to be fixed. The correct reference may be "Anti-Zionism and Anti-Semitism". There, Wistrich says "Although not a priori anti-Semitic, the calls to dismantle the Jewish state, whether they come from Muslims, the Left, or the radical Right, increasingly rely on an anti-Semitic stereotypization of classic themes, such as the manipulative 'Jewish lobby,' the Jewish/Zionist "world conspiracy," and Jewish/Israeli 'warmongers.'" He's just using the phrase casually, in the context of whether opposition to Israeli policies is antisemitism. There are no examples. (This quote might better belong in the New Antisemitism article.)

Michael Visontay's opinion piece in the Sidney Morning Herald talks about Jewish lobbying, but it's a piece on political tactics. It was about Jewish efforts to stop Hanan Ashrawi getting the Sydney Peace Prize, and various speakers from the Jewish community thought they might have gone too far with aggressive lobbying efforts. There's no mention of antisemitic activity from outside the Jewish community.

Levey and Mendes are represented only by a brief quote, but again, there are no ties to any incident of antisemitism, just a vague remark.

Safire mentions the term "Jewish lobby" being used pejoratively, but not antisemitically, in the British press.

The Chris Davis affair is the closest thing we have to a real-world event that involved both the "Jewish lobby" and antisemitism. Davis, if anything, was the victim of the Jewish lobby; he had to resign from a party leadership post (he remains in Parliament) for saying that he thought the Jewish lobby had too much power.

We've already discussed the Dawkins issue to death, so I'm not going to re-hash that here.

These references are almost all polemics or op-ed pieces from supporters of the Jewish lobby. We don't have any news-type incidents of antisemitism in a "Jewish lobby" context. It's all allegations. The heading should reflect this.

This also calls into question whether the "Antisemitism" box is appropriate for the article. --John Nagle (talk) 17:05, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

While I agree these are weak, the best thing would be to replace them with criticisms of actual antisemites who use the phrase. If you can find them. The most obvious example being A Straight Look at the Jewish Lobby by Mark Weber at Institute for Historical Review. It used to come up first in google search. Now it comes up first after the wiki article and the wiki mediation (oi!!) Anyway, I haven't read it since last fall but as I remember, while most of it is pretty straightforward critique, there's just enough negative innuendo that you would recognize it as being antisemitic, even without knowing about the author or publisher. Yet when I searched for any critique of the article branding it as what it is, couldn't find!
Certainly my google alerts do produce a good 10-15% of material that comes close to or crosses that line. But I don't know if any of it gets a specific critique. So I would say keep searching for better examples and then delete the weakest examples, starting with the vaguest of all - "pejorative" uses. I mean does every group, faction, tendency, etc. in the world now get a section just on "pejorative" comments!?!Carol Moore 03:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
The Institute for Historical Review is a "holocaust denial" organization, and is generally considered a nut group. Probably not a good source. I've looked before, too, and other than material published in countries with which Israel has had shooting wars, haven't found much in the way of antisemitic uses of the term "Jewish lobby". But keep trying. --John Nagle (talk) 03:46, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
The Wistrich citation was a duplicate (not a ref) of the Jacobs citation, and isn't a valid cite for Wistrich. So I removed the duplicate ref and put in a "citation needed". I have a link for Wistrich above, but it's to an excerpt on an order form for the Jewish Insitute for Political Studies. It's supposedly an excerpt from a UN document, and we should find the original. --John Nagle (talk) 23:14, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Wistrich didn't use the term "Jewish lobby" when he sent in a statement to the UN Commission on Human Rights. The original statement to the UN [15] doesn't contain the term. The lead paragraph, in italics on the JCPA page [16], does, but that appears to have been added by the JCPA. There's an exchange of letters between Wistrich and Krug that uses the term "Jewish lobby", but the context is different.[17] (That would be a good cite in New Antisemitism, by the way.) I can't find out where the JCPA got that copy; it may just be some material written by a JCPA editor as a lead for the Wistrich article. This needs to be fixed. --John Nagle (talk) 23:35, 7 June 2008 (UTC)