Talk:Jewish hat

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Not sure if a different English term exists for this or not. If so, it should be merged/moved. -Tydaj 04:15, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Judenhut seems to be the most common name. Saintswithin 12:22, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

I changed "Jewish hat" to "Jew hat", a more precise translation of Judenhut, both grammatically and in register. Nasorenga 20:54, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

I changed it to "Jew's hat" for the same reasons! Really the article should be moved to "Jewish hat", as used by Norman Rose & Shreckenburg etc. Johnbod 18:42, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 Painting 2 Preserved Judenhuts? 3 Harun al-Rashid in 807 4 "Jewish hat" or "Judenhut" 5 Antisemitism !? 6 cut

[edit] Painting

A Swedish painting of a Danish king holding a Swedish town for to ransom features a Jewish merchant wearing a Judenhut. Just in case anybody might find it interesting. Valentinian ^{T / C} 19:32, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks; I do find it interesting. Itzse 23:33, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Preserved Judenhuts?

Are Judenhuts known only from written descriptions and illuminated manuscripts, or are there any beaten-up old examples of actual Judenhuts in museums?--Pharos 16:03, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure I saw an example that has survived - I think from Italy - on the web, but have not been able to find it again. In general medieval clothes, especially of non-royals, are vanishingly rare. Johnbod 13:26, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Harun al-Rashid in 807

I have removed this bit, which had a fact tag, as though a belt and badge are referred to in several fairly good-quality online references, I can see no such references for the hat (apart from many that look to be derived from WP): "In 807 Harun al-Rashid ordered all Jews living as dhimmi under Muslim rule to wear yellow, pointed hats and yellow belts." Johnbod 15:04, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Jewish hat" or "Judenhut"

I think that, it was incorrect to rename this article to "Jewish hat". While "Jewish hat" is an exact translation of "Judenhut"; this article doesn't talk about a Jewish hat; it talks about a particular hat worn by Jews, which was then called the "Judenhut" and is of important historical interest. The new name waters down the historicity of this article.

I think with time someone will come along and think that this article deals with hats worn by Jews; and add here a few other ones (e.g. Hasidic hats); then someone will correctly rename this article to "Jewish hats"; which is totally not the objective of this article. Itzse 23:28, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

It was only called "Judenhut" in German-speaking areas, when it was worn all over Europe and beyond. "Jewish hat" is the term used by the best modern sources. The lead para is clear enough - other Jewish hat types have their own articles. Johnbod 23:35, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

True, it originated in Germany, but although at first it literally meant "Jewish hat"; it subsequently took on a life of its own and was called by everybody, even by non-German speaking people as the "Judenhut".

In the late fifteenth century the ruler of Meissen; issued a groschen coin depicting a man (presumably a Jewish man), that circulated for about 30 years and it was and still is known as the "Judenkopf groshen". Even for English speaking historians (like me) "Judenhut" preserves its originality, and in my opinion "Jewish hat" should be its secondary name, only used for explanation. Itzse 00:07, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Do you have any evidence it was called a "Judenhut" outside German lands at the time? It sounds unlikely to me. Most contemporary references are of course in Latin. Norman Roth & Schreckenberg use Jewish hat. Johnbod 00:13, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

It's a fair question. That’s why I explained that the historical coin depicting a Jew wearing a Judenhut is called nowadays by all numismatics with its original name "Judenkopf groschen"; not "Jew" or "Jew head" "groschen". "Judenhut" might not be exactly the same, but I wanted to weigh in with some historical details that few have. I just don't have the time to go digging for the evidence which is very scarce; but hopefully the "Judenkopf groschen" which for that I have documentation that I can easily dig up is enough. I'm only expressing my opinion on something that very few have dabbled with. My point is that nowadays, the term "Jewish hat" is used only for translation of its meaning, not as its real name. I still am openminded enough and might be wrong; thanks. Itzse 00:31, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Ok. You'll see at the top, btw, I raised the matter here on Oct 9, & then waited until Oct 26 before moving it, with no comments in between. I think from your page you were on a break then? Glad somebody else is watching it anyway. Johnbod 01:34, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

You acted appropriately with ample time to hear any objections. I like to voice my opinion on things that matter to me, or I think I have some knowledge about; and did so when I noticed it. I'm not saying, it has to be so; but rather that this is the way I see it; and that if you or anyone else sees any merit in what I'm saying, then good; if not, then it's also ok.

I hope to upload a picture of the Judenkopf groschen as soon as I get it photographed; I think it might liven up this article. Itzse (talk) 18:29, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Antisemitism !?

I really fail to see why this comes under antisemitism.Surely thats ridiculous. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.21.204.72 (talk) 21:43, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] cut

Unreferenced, & probably from a modern period: "There is also a rothwellish type of skullcap called the fidder. Rothwellish as in from the Israeli town of Rothwell(mayored by James Oliver). This fidder is made of sheep's wool and is water resistant." Johnbod (talk) 03:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)