Talk:Jewish Voice for Peace

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Contents

[edit] Neutral point of view

Articles are supposed to maintain a neutral point of view. That doesn't mean that this article shouldn't mention legitimate criticism of JVP -- it absolutely should. But I don't think that the text I removed did that.

  • "JVP shunned by Jews" is a statement that cannot be supported by facts. All Jews? No, because it has plenty of Jewish members. Some Jews? Maybe. Get a reference, and write a sentence that your reference can support.
  • The paragraph that was allegedly supported by the JTA article was a misrepresentation of what the JTA article says.
  • The sentence about "Israel at the Ballpark" was from an article about dozens of pro-Israel groups -- including Meretz USA! -- who aren't considered kosher enough for the right-wing groups that control the leadership of American Jewish organizations. Including it under the heading "JVP shunned by Jews" is dishonest.

I hope you get my point. I support JVP, and I make no apologies for it, but discussing criticism of the group belongs in the article. Just keep a neutral point of view. Malik Shabazz 02:17, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

As written by Shabazz, the article is simply a PR peace portraying JVP as the organization wishes others to see them.

JVP is regarded as outside the pale by the mainstream American Jewish Community - the Federation, which is a big-tent organization - has taken the extremely unusual step of disinviting this group because it does not support the Jewish State. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Evidence-based (talk • contribs) 09:02, February 4, 2007

First, I didn't write this article, as a glance at its history would show. Second, I again recommend that you read Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy. In the meantime, I've asked an impartial third-party to review your additions to this article. Malik Shabazz 18:09, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey JVP,

As a man born of Middle Eastern parents, I'd like to say I support your cause and your wish for a final and everlasting peace between Israel and Palestine. I hope this can be achieved soon. Tonezz 03:59, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Third opinion

While the added section is indeed very POV, the major problem with this article is that it does not assert the notability of this organization. Without non-trivial reliable source coverage of the organization itself, this article is likely to be nominated for deletion. However, in the meantime, the POV problems certainly should be corrected-criticism of the organization should be sourced, most of it now is just weaseling. Seraphimblade 18:56, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Provide citations for these allegations

I've deleted these allegations from the article, pending reasonable citations:

  • The group is not treated as part of the mainstream Jewish community.
On Jan. 28, 2007, more than 50 Jewish organizations convened a conference of Jewish progressives active in a range of progressive political causes, especially in the peace movement, for the purpose of discussing the rise in anti-Semitism. Jewish voice for Peace was "not invited to co-sponsor the conference. " http://jta.org/page_print_story.asp?intarticleid=17507&intcategoryid=4 -- (a) The reference does not indicate that JVP is not treated as part of the mainstream Jewish community. (b) The reference does not describe a "a conference of Jewish progressives."
  • Jewish criticism of Jewish Voice for Peace is caused by the tendency of members of the group to advocate for and empathize exclusively with Arab and anti-Israel concerns and perspectives. As JVP member Hilda Bernstein Silverman has written,
"I am empathizing more and more with “the other side.”...
"I attend the magnificent Workmen’s Circle commemoration of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising. People are singing their hearts out, but the words are, under the circumstances, quite jarring. There are songs of pride about Jewish honor being upheld by fighters armed only with stones and rifles against the Nazi tanks. I start to cry. I cry through the entire second act. One of my friends in the chorus later confesses only half facetiously that she got through the experience by pretending she is a Palestinian.
"Days later I read of Palestinian pride that in the ferocious battle of the Jenin refugee camp a 13 year old boy threw stones at Israeli soldiers after he had run out of ammunition. Stories of such heroism are circulating widely among this devastated but still-proud people..."

http://vopj.org/conflict3.htm -- (a) The reference does not identify Silverman as a JVP member. (b) Even if it did, there is no indication that she speaks on behalf of the group. (c) The reference does not indicate the existence of Jewish criticism of JVP, let alone its putative cause.

  • And it is criticized because it retails unverified, defamatory accusations that tend to demonize the Israe Defense Force, “"The Israeli army is demolishing Palestinian houses with people still inside them, and using older people as human shields in front of their tanks," said Rosenwasser, who lives in Oakland. "Bodies are being left to rot in the streets.” http://www.taparts.org/ActionsDetail.cfm?ActionID=19 -- (a) The reference does not indicate the existence of Jewish criticism of JVP, let alone its putative cause. (b) The use of words such as "defamatory" and "demonize" violate NPOV.

I left a few criticisms that were sourced. I encourage you to (a) find better sources if you want to put the preceding allegations back in the article and (b) edit the portion of the article you added to improve its readability. Malik Shabazz 21:14, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category:Jewish anti-occupation groups

I see that [[Category:Jewish anti-occupation groups]] was removed from the article. I also noticed that the category seems to have disappeared. Can somebody fill me in on what happened? Thanks! — Malik Shabazz | Talk 22:44, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

User:Jayjg removed this article from the category, and then deleted the category. Given the reason provided, it would seem Jayjg has no objection to someone else recreating the category (though it might be worth checking around to see if there's already a similar category). —Ashley Y 08:36, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I have recreated it. —Ashley Y 06:08, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks! I'll restore it to some of the groups that had it previously. — Malik Shabazz | Talk 06:33, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

If I understand correctly from the article, criticism of JVP consists of:

  • "airing dirty laundry", a phrase that suggests that much of what they have to say might actually be true;
  • guilt by association, since they once attended something that was attended by some other group that may or may not be anti-Semitic;
  • allegations about one particular member (Plitnick) that can't be confirmed.

Is that correct? —Ashley Y 09:49, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes. The activities in question are either a betrayal of the Jewish people, or upholding Jewish principles of peace and justice, depending on whether you take the perspective of the critics or the JVP, respectively.
Some people regard a denounciation by FrontPageMag.com as an honor, like being on Nixon's enemies list. In regard to your specific questions:
  • "airing dirty laundry" — this is a Jewish term of art which describes any public discussion of anything that the speaker believes reflects negatively on Jews or Israel. (If true, it damages Israel's image even more.)
  • "guilt by association" — More precisely, the logic of this argument is that (a) all Palestinians and their supporters, including the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs, are anti-Semitic and want nothing less than the destruction of Israel, and all of their conciliatory offers and actions are lies and deceptions, and (b) anyone who concedes any of their facts or arguments (regardless of its truth) or associates with them is a supporter of the Palestinians and of the destruction of Israel.
Another criticism of JVP is that they are condemned by "the mainstream Jewish community". This is another Jewish term of art. It refers to whomever the speaker believes represents the Jewish community, usually the minority of Jews affiliated with formal synagogue organizations, Jewish fundraising organizations, wealthy Jewish contributors, and Jewish lobbying organizations. It does not mean "the Jewish establishment", which would also include influential leaders of Jewish Americans, like Tony Kushner, George Soros, and Noam Chomsky. In polls, majorities of American Jews disagree with policies asserted by "the mainstream Jewish community". Nbauman 21:04, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
Another criticism:
  • The ADL didn't invite them to a conference.
I'm sure that's damning if any of them are... —Ashley Y 05:10, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I think you've correctly identified most of the criticism.
I would like to beef up the section with JVP's activities/accomplishments. Their website has a section about JVP in the news, but it's mostly a collection of op-ed columns. It's very light on articles about things that JVP has done.
So, please contribute to the section on activities, or add a section with acclaim to balance the section with criticism. — Malik Shabazz | Talk 06:03, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


Just added short quote form Liat Weingart detailing JVP activities.

Nonsense. Mainstream is no more difficult to define than other political terms. For example, when an official of the Chicago Board of Rabbis takes a position, that position is mainstream because the Chicago board of Rabbis includes independent, reconstructionist reform, conservative and orthodox rabbis - everyone except the far right wing.
Furthermore, to classify Noam Chomsky as a major Jewish leader is absurd. He is a leading American intellectual, certainly. But Jewish? Only in re sense of having been born of Jewihs parents. He has abstained from any participation in any aspect of Jewishlife or culture for his entire adult life. To classify such a man as Jewish is an act of pure racial essentialism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.35.34 (talk) 15:34, March 4, 2007
I agree that Chomsky isn't a "Jewish leader" in any meaningful sense of the phrase (unless one means "a leader who is Jewish"). I would even argue that he's not a leader at all. But he is a Jew. Like it or not, "having been born of [Jewish] parents" is what makes one a Jew. He takes positions contrary to those of most other Jews, but that doesn't make him — or any Jew with similar views — any less Jewish.
On a related note, I think this section of the article is rapidly becoming a quotefarm. I don't think it's appropriate to include every negative thing said about JVP by every Jew in America. If editors want to add more criticism in the future, I think they should consider deleting existing items to make room for the new items. There are only so many ways to make the same point: JVP and its viewpoints are not welcomed by many Jewish groups. — Malik Shabazz | Talk 00:13, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rabbi Ira Youdovin / "JVP is beyond the pale"

I deleted the following paragraph, which was inserted by Evidence-based:

According to Rabbi Ira Youdovin, executive vice president of the Chicago Board of Rabbis, writing in the left of center newspaper the Forward, "Jewish Voice for Peace, which supports divestment and is currently circulating a petition urging Congress to heed Carter’s words, is certainly beyond the pale." http://www.forward.com/articles/the-progressive-jewish-question/

Before I removed it, I read the Forward article to see what this quote means, because I wanted to fix this paragraph rather than delete it. Unfortunately, the article is just as unclear. Unless there's some context, a vague phrase like "certainly beyond the pale" doesn't mean anything.

I moved the paragraph here so it can be easily copied and pasted back if Evidence-based or any other editor can make more sense out of this, but I read Rabbi Youdovin's column twice, and I still don't understand his specific criticism of JVP, except that he doesn't like that they support divestment and are circulating a petition urging Congress to heed Carter’s words. — Malik Shabazz | Talk 05:58, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I understand what Youdovin means. Many Jews, even in the Jewish peace movement, draw the line at advocating divestment. They believe that divestment is "beyond the pale", or in this context, beyond the permissible boundaries of debate. There's a radio program on WBAI called "Beyond the Pale: the progresive Jewish radio hour," whose title plays on that phrase, in a double-entendre. ("Beyond the pale" literally refers to the pale, a region of I think Russia in which Jews were required to live, so a Jew who left the ghetto and becomes secular, and often socialist, would also be going "beyond the pale" into the secular world.)
I don't agree with Youdovin, but I think his statement clarifies the position of those who believe as he does — he's trying to suppress the idea of divestment. I would put it back in. Nbauman 06:25, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Actually The Pale refers to the English in Ireland in the 15th century. —Ashley Y 07:36, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm familiar with the expression "beyond the pale." My concern is what it means in this article. If Youdovin had said "By calling for divestment and supporting Carter, JVP has isolated itself from the Jewish mainstream," that would be one thing. He didn't. He phrased his comment in such a way that the reader either (a) is forced to read the remark in context to understand it or (b) has to be familiar with the internecine debate among American Jews concerning the best way to support Israel. I'm not sure how to keep the rabbi's criticism without putting words in his mouth. — Malik Shabazz | Talk 07:53, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Shabaaz,
Rabbi Youdovin's article is admittedly far from being a model of clear prose. However, two paragraphs up he makes clear that he is discussing "the line separating claumny from legitimate dissent."
This is a statement that gives the clear opinion of the mainstream Jewish community re: JVP.
I have replaced the paragraph with this:
In an article in the left of center newspaper the ForwardRabbi Ira Youdovin, executive vice president of the mainstream, multi-denominational Chicago Board of Rabbis, discusses "the line seperating calumny from legitimate dissent." While admitting that "the line is unclear and ever shifting," he does not consider that Jewish voice for Peace is not a debatable case. "Jewish Voice for Peace, which supports divestment and is currently circulating a petition urging Congress to heed Carter’s words, is certainly beyond the pale." http://www.forward.com/articles/the-progressive-jewish-question/
The Forward self-defines as left of center (it was the voice of the Jewish socialist party forward meant forward toward a Marxist future). It was anti-Zionist for a long time, and can still be described as non-Zionist Jewish paper that is very critical of Israeli policy.
The Chicago Board of Rabbis is a serious, mainstream organization. A specific statement from such an organization on the standing of JVP in the Jewish community is significant and worthy of inclusion in this article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.35.34 (talk) 15:44, March 4, 2007
I'm sorry that I missed the earlier sentence in which Youdovin described "the line." Thanks for pointing it out. With that in the paragraph, his statement about "beyond the pale" makes perfect sense. Without it, one of the editors would have to put words into his mouth about what specific "pale" he was referring to. — Malik Shabazz | Talk 23:59, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


[edit] United for Peace and justice

I have removed this paragraph:

Jewish Voice for Peace, which opposes the American war in Iraq, is one of a small number of organizations that have confronted United for Peace and Justice, the organizer of large anti-war rallies, on the issue of the anti-Israel bias of its speakers.[1]

Problem is, the referenced article form the Forward does not say anything about 'confronting" United for Peace and Justice. It says: "Before the march, Silverman, of Jews for Racial and Economic Justice, helped organize an informal breakfast of bagels and coffee in a Washington park that she estimated was attended by 150 Jewish protesters. Some attendees — including members of Jewish Voice for Peace and the Labor Zionist youth group Habonim Dror — left together to join up with the Buddhist marchers."

I don't know whether JVP has "confronted" U for P&J or not. The thing is, all the article says is that the JVP gorup marched in the UPJ march in a marching Group with Buddhists.

And this http://www.unitedforpeace.org/article.php?id=3454 page lists JVP cosponsoring a Jan 27, 2007 march with UPJ.

It may be that JVP has indeed "confronted United for Peace and Justice, the organizer of large anti-war rallies, on the issue of the anti-Israel bias of its speakers." Only, it shouldn't be in the Wiki article unless there is a source to document it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.39.35.34 (talk) 20:07, March 4, 2007

You're right. — Malik Shabazz | Talk 04:04, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Position of Jewish Voice for Peace within the Jewish Community

I decided to separate this from Criticism in the interest of clarity.


I think that it is logical to separate criticism of the organization and its activites, form discussion within the Jewish community of whether or not JVP is a legitimately Jewish organization.

So far, this section only has commentary from those who believe that JVP is "outside the pale" of the Jewish community.

It would be useful for someone to find and post a defense of the "Jewishness' of the organization form a Jewish newspaper, or Jewish organization. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 160.39.35.34 (talk) 01:35, 5 March 2007 (UTC).

This is an article about Jewish Voice for Peace. It is not an article about self-appointed Jewish snipers and their criticism of JVP. There is no need for anybody to establish the Jewishness of JVP. — Malik Shabazz | Talk 03:52, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed New first Paragraph

In order to provide a better contextualized description of this organization, I propose the following introductory paragraph which addresses the issues of the organization's goals, character, and relationship to the conflict and to the American Jewish community:

JVP is an organization of US Jews that advocates for a solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict based on human rights and international law. JVP works to change US Policy on the conflict, particularly to suspend US military aid to Israel until the end of Israel’s occupation of the territories it conquered in 1967. JVP does not propose any particular solution to the conflict, but supports any just solution agreed upon by the parties. [2] JVP’s stance on Israeli policies has earned it criticism from many Jewish organizations and leaders, but it represents the thinking of a substantial portion of American Jews and is part of a tradition of Jewish dissent about Israel. [3] alex tolstoy 20:13, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


alex tolstoy, thanks for discussing it in talk first before you change it.
My problem with that language is that it's less specific than the current language. Everybody claims that they "advocates for a solution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict based on human rights and international law." If I read an entry, I want to find out in the lead the difference between JVP and all the other Jewish peace organizations.
The part about suspending military aid certainly belongs in the article -- there aren't too many Jewish peace organizations that take that position. I think it belongs in the body of the entry, and in the introduction as well.
However, it's hard to include context in view of Wikipedia's strong WP:NPOV policy. In practice, you have to find somebody to quote. Nbauman (talk) 21:46, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Latest revision

SelfEvidentTruths, while the cleanup and organization was useful, I don't know about the introduction. It's too generic. The old introduction was more specific.

It says

Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP) is one of the largest Jewish peace organizations in the U.S. dedicated to promoting a US foreign policy in the Middle East based on democracy, human rights, and respect for international law.

Wouldn't every Jewish organization claim to be doing that?

With chapters across the U.S., JVP engages in grassroots advocacy and educational efforts, publishes policy papers and press releases, and hosts public speaking events.

Doesn't that describe every national Jewish organization?

The old intro says:

Jewish Voice for Peace (JVP) is an American Jewish advocacy organization that opposes some of the current Israeli government's policies, such as the construction of the Israeli West Bank barrier and military excursions into Gaza and the West Bank, and supports Israeli refuseniks. Unlike many other organizations concerned with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Jewish Voice for Peace "endorses neither a one-state solution, nor a two-state solution."

Don't you think that describes them better, and distinguishes them from all the other Jewish organizations? Nbauman (talk) 23:12, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

If all Jewish organizations make these claims, why should JVP have to be the one to distinguish itself? Boodlesthecat Meow? 23:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
JVP doesn't have to do anything. We are distinguishing JVP from the other organizations. It's giving our readers better information to tell them exactly what the JVP stands for. A generic statement like the one we have doesn't tell them anything. It is to JVP's credit that they take specific stands. Nbauman (talk) 04:48, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
It's all in the article. I can't imgagine that with sections such as
  • 2.1 Distinguishing criticism of Israel from antisemitism
  • 2.2 Support for Israeli refuseniks
  • 2.3 Selected divestment
  • 2.4 Opposition to AIPAC
  • 2.5 Muzzlewatch
  • 2.6 Opposition to Israeli settlements in West Bank
that anyone is going to confuse JVP with the ZOA. Boodlesthecat Meow? 19:12, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but the issues is whether that should be in the summary. In WP, the introduction should summarize the article. If the summary of the JVP article could serve equally well as the summary of the ZOA article, is that a good summary? Nbauman (talk) 20:39, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes I understand, and I'm not trying to be contentious. My sense is that, eg, "one of the largest American Jewish peace organizations dedicated to promoting an American foreign policy in the Middle East based on democracy, human rights, and respect for international law" pretty much narrows the field, and is fairly specific, and the details (2.1, 2.2...) follow right after. Boodlesthecat Meow? 23:05, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
First, wouldn't the ZOA claim that they, too are "dedicated to promoting an American foreign policy in the Middle East based on democracy, human rights, and respect for international law"? Wouldn't the Conference of Presidents of Major Jewish Organizations? Wouldn't AIPAC? Is there anyJewish organization that claims to be opposed to democracy? Or human rights? Or international law?
Second, what's the WP:RS to support the statement that they are "one of the largest" such organizations? I don't think they're very large, I don't think the size matters, and I think "one of the largest" is so vague as to violate WP:WEASEL. Nbauman (talk) 03:06, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Remember, we're talking about the category of "Jewish Peace Organizations," a group doesnt have to be very large to be one of the largest within this subset. The other groups you've named are much larger but are not "Jewish peace groups;" they are communal organizations, Zionist advocacy organizations, lobbying organizations, etc. I agree a source or two on their relative size would be good; perhaps the editor who made the changes could supply one? Boodlesthecat Meow? 03:46, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I tend to agree with Nbauman here. Every Jewish organization in the U.S. concerned with Israel probably would describe itself as "dedicated to promoting a US foreign policy in the Middle East based on democracy, human rights, and respect for international law"; the devil is in the details.
What differentiates JVP from AIPAC, ZOA, and most other American Jewish organizations is that it opposes Israeli government policies concerning the Palestinians. Based on my experience, it is also somewhat unique in its openness toward the possibility of a binational state. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 21:51, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm going to give Boodlesthecat a chance to give a good reply to this, and if he doesn't, I'm going to revert it to the original introduction. Nbauman (talk) 22:41, 26 May 2008 (UTC)