Talk:Jewish Messiah claimants

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Contents 1 Split from Messiah article 2 Bibliography 3 When did the Arizal hakodesh claim he was the Moshiach?? 4 Recent move 5 Asher Kay 6 Jesus... 7 Neither Jesus nor the LR

[edit] Split from Messiah article

Except for the intro and the paragraph about Jesus, all the material was in the Messiah article in a section titled Other historically significant Jewish Messiah claimants. It reached the point where it constituted most of the article and people basically stopped contributing.

These are intended as overviews and not detailed descriptions. If you want to add information about a particular person included, please add to the related article and not here.

REMEMBER NPOV! This is not the place to get into religious debates about whether Jesus is the Messiah!

The source article did not contain references for the information.

RickReinckens 08:13, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bibliography

I have added a general reference bibliography on the subject of Jewish messianism. At the moment, I have also added specific bibliographies for Jacob Frank, Rebbe Menachem Mendel Schneerson,Isaac Luria and Sabbatai Zevi, which are located within their specific entries. These are not intended to be comprehensive, and I would welcome any additions if other users are aware of them. Unfortunately, I can't read Hebrew, so I've been largely restricted to English language literature...

User Calibanu 17:09, 31 May 2006

[edit] When did the Arizal hakodesh claim he was the Moshiach??

BS"D

When did The Arizal Hakodesh or his talmid R' Chaim Vital claim to be the Moshiach??? I have never heard that and don't belive it to be true. Could somebody please clarify that for me?

Thanks, Shaul avrom 18:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Does anyone read this talk page any more???? Its been a month since I posted my question.--Shaul avrom 22:56, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I have to be the only one who looks at this talk page and knows Jewish History. R' Chaim Vital was a talmid of a talmid of the Arizal HaKodesh. --Shaul avrom 15:12, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Shaul avrom: I have the same question/s as you. IZAK 09:20, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

I think we should remove the Arizal from the list temporarily unless someone can show that the arizal declared himself as the moshiach. The wikipedia page on the ari has no mention of this and I have not seen such a teaching in various jewish textbooks. If someone finds a source to the contrary than they can put his name back in.Sagtkd 07:06, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

One other thing I noticed in the deleted portion was that there was no claim of him declaring himself as the actual moshiach but rather the forerunner to the moshiach. Another innacuricy is that the section said that the arizal claimed to have the soul of the Moshiach ben Yosef. It is known that the Arizal was from the house of Dovid and therefore would not have claimed to have been otherwise. Sagtkd 07:18, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

It gives R' Chaim Vital as having said to have been Moshiach ben Yosef. Not the Arizal. --Shaul avrom 13:11, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

What is said originally was: "Isaac Luria (b. 1534 in Jerusalem; d. 1572 in Safed, Israel) taught in his mystic system the transmigration and superfetation of souls, and believed himself to possess the soul of the messiah of the house of Joseph" Sagtkd 04:32, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent move

Care to explain the logic on this one? A Jewish messianic claimant could be someone Jewish filing a claim in court in the manner of a Messiah (whatever that would imply). "People who have claimed to be a Messiah in Judaism" would be perhaps the most precise title, but it's also long and unwieldly. The original title seems the best option, to me. SnowFire 17:09, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Seeing no response, I'm moving it back. I don't know; maybe the page should be at Jewish messianic claimants, but without a reason to go on... SnowFire 05:00, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Asher Kay

Removed the following from the section on Asher Kay:

Not much is know about his Reincarnation, but most believe he was reborn in Columbus, Ohio in 1988.

no cites, no references, and a highly speculative and dubious claim - have removed. (forgot to log in before making the edit tho - apologies) --Black Butterfly 18:42, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jesus...

Before I put it in I was wondering if there was a logical reason that Jesus isn't on the list. Eno-Etile 05:50, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I was sure this had been discussed but evidently I'm wrong (either that or the discussion was on another article.) I'd be in favour of putting it in tho with a "Main article: Judaism's view of Jesus", due to this article focusing on the Messiah from a Jewish perspective rather than looking at the more general concept (see Messiah). --Black Butterfly 08:44, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

OK, well I'm just going to put the name on the list, since Jesus meets the list's criteria. Someone else can make it a link since I'm not sure what would be most appropriate. Eno-Etile 08:45, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

I have made it link to Jesus. --Black Butterfly 09:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Neither Jesus nor the LR

ever claimed to be the messiah. Their followers believed it and made the claim, but they did not endorse it. They both refused to rule out the possibility that they might be the messiah - how could they? - but I don't see how that makes them "claimants". I'm not sure either should be in this article. -- Zsero 20:45, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

So you were there? Or did you find their journals? I don't who "LR" is. But since a religion was founded on the idea that Jesus claimed to be the messiah, the son of God, and God himself it seems a bit presumptuous and insulting for you state that he never claimed to be the messiah. Especially since there is no Jesus journal in which he stated that he wasn't the messiah and since there are records kept by his closest followers that say that he made these claims. Eno-Etile 01:15, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

You can't leave out the most famous of all of the people who claimed to be the Messiah. Including Jesus on the list shouldn't offend Christian sensibilities (It doesn't offend mine.). The list doesn't make any comment on the veracity of Jesus' claim, it just says Jesus claimed to be the Jewish Messiah. And by all accounts, Jesus did. Jsc1973 (talk) 05:03, 23 November 2007 (UTC)