Talk:Jewish Autonomous Oblast

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[edit] Pictures

Any photos or paintings of the region and it's cities? It would help a lot with the article.

-G

[edit] Older discussions

By any chance, did the Jewish Autonomous Region issue their own postage stamps?

No, they didn't.

This article should mention and show the coat of arms of the region, which has a field of the very unusual heraldic tincture aquamarine. Can anyone get a copyright-free of licensed illustration? --Daniel C. Boyer 20:14, 11 Mar 2004 (UTC)

from my talk:

Where did you get the information that this region is also called Birobidzhan. While Birobidzhan is the administrative center (capital can be used, but technically is incorrect) of this autonomous oblast, but, having lived in the near vicinity for most of my life, I have never heard the whole autonomous oblast called this way. Any clarifications would be much appreciated. --Ezhiki 20:20, Apr 27, 2004 (UTC)

i've never been there, and don't speak russian. reverted. Badanedwa 21:12, Apr 27, 2004 (UTC)

---

Does anyone know why so many Jews went to Germany after the fall of the Soviet Union? Is it because many Jews spoke Jiddische or German and didn't want to learn modern Hebrew?

Imagine you're an absolutely secular person of European culture and your country is breaking apart with everyone talking about the inevitable hardhsips, a civil war or three and what not. Two countries in the world are particularly eager to accept you: one a very parrochial state in the Middle East surrounded by hostile neighbours and plagued with terrorism, another a richer secular European country offering immigration quotas to people of your heritage to atone for some past atrocities. Where would you go? --apoivre 30 June 2005 18:36 (UTC)
Your characterization of Israel as "parochial"—I think you meant religious—is highly incorrect. Israel is a secular state. Its primary concern is with promoting/saving Jewish culture, not with promoting Judaism as a state religion. There is no state religion in Israel. Theshibboleth 00:12, 26 April 2006 (UTC)
Israel is economically weaker, life is more expensive, it's hot there and the social institutions are hardly developed compared to europe. As a naturalized German citizen you can settle everywhere in the European Union - it is by far not the case with Israeli citizenship. Terrorism is hardly an issue - there are plenty of other ways to die, though it's not a nice feeling to have neightboring countries wanting to wipe yours out especially if at least one of them has nuclear arms. Though both countries still have military slavery (draft), the German one is four times shorter, less dangerous and only for males - care for children might also be a reason. Also, the situation with human rights is far from perfect - nobody wants to get mistreated by Shin Bet even if it's for highest ideals and for the sake of the country's security.84.167.197.48 16:36, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] When changed from republic to oblast?

"In 1991, the Jewish Autonomous Region was elevated to the status of an Autonomous Republic [...]"

"Some political observers [...] have proposed resurrecting the Jewish Autonomous Republic"

Somewhen in between it must have been changed to a "oblast".

Actually, while the possibility of JAO becoming a republic was heavily debated, it never actually came into life. Ever since JAO fell under the juristiction of the Federation in 1991 (as opposed to being a part of Khabarovsk Krai before), it remained an autonomous oblast.—Ëzhiki (erinaceus amurensis) 16:13, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Jews in the region

About this sentence:

"...was founded with the help of Komzet in 1928 as the Jewish National District. It was the result of Vladimir Lenin's nationality policy..."

This is wrong for several reasons. First of all, Lenin died in January 1924. Second, this nationality policy was introduced by Stalin at a later date. Third, it is also ideologically inconsistent: between 1923-1928 there were major conflicts and changes within the Bolshevik party - one of which is the conflict of 'internationalism vs nationalism' in which Lenin and his close comrades effectively represented the internationalism, while Stalin and his men represented nationalism. So this policy conflicted with Lenins ideology.

Therefore, I corrected the name in this article to Josef Stalin.

131.211.45.85 20:41, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Autonomous oblasts

Does it really need both AO cats?

Does the Autonomous Oblasts of Russia cat need to exist, since it applies only here?

If it does, why not as a sub-cat of Soviet AO? Septentrionalis 02:45, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

True. There is only one such entity in this category. Maybe a more general category on the subnational administrative units of Russia is preferable. Then we wouldn't need to change categories every time a unit is upgraded or split off or merged with another one of a different level of self-government. //Big Adamsky 07:18, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel words

Some political observers — particularly those sympathetic to the Palestinian cause in the Middle East — have proposed resurrecting the Jewish Autonomous Republic as both an alternative to Israel as the Jewish national homeland and as a permanent solution to the ongoing Arab-Jewish difficulties.

Who are these "political observers"? Theshibboleth 00:15, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

've seen an interview of an Israeli Jewish hardcore Stalinist proposing moving there.
Either way that's the dumbest proposal yet. The whole point of Israel being Israel is that Jerusalem is there, Mount Zion is there, what on earth would the jewish homeland be doing in the middle of Russia? There's no mention of this area in the Bible. Might as well send them back to Europe, would be under the same context. Joffeloff 18:06, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
It's not our place to have a discussion of that here, but rather to document it if it's true. --Improv 22:05, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
It wasn't meant to be a debate; I'd say my comments are a surefire way to say that it's non-notable. You know, I could say that the jews could go to the moon with a Saturn V rocket, but it wouldn't be added to the list of Middle East peace proposals. Catch my drift? Joffeloff 07:46, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand how your disliking of a proposal helps us understand it as not notable. The notion of a homeland differs from person to person, and to several (including some sects of the Orthodox), the current Israeli government is not the Israel that would be reborn out of prophecy (that presumably being reestablished by Moshiach upon his return), and this is at best a distraction. As I understand, that faction (which has been around for a long time and has a certain amount of shared people with those who see the ressurection of Hebrew as a day-to-day language as almost sacreligious because they want to keep the language reserved for holy purposes) was considerably more friendly towards Birobidzan and other experiments than they were towards the early Zionist movement. You may, of course dismiss them as ridiculous, but if you ever meet one, be prepared to argue :) --Improv 14:15, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
It's not my dislike of the idea, it's me noticing that it contradicts the entire Zionist movement. Anyways, the point still stands; there have been no mentions of this proposal from notable academics and so it is not notable. Joffeloff 14:31, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
Not all Jews are or historically have been Zionist. By my understanding of the history of the area, it actually has gotten some coverage as an alternate homeland, both when it was originally created and in more modern times -- not a lot of coverage, but enough to be worth noting. --Improv 15:41, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

It will never rplace Israel as the new Zion.

[edit] History section and Russian POV

I feel the history section is very lacking and side with Russian POV, making it sound like the place was uninhabited and devoid of people and history. There's no mention of Goguryeo or Jurchens's historical occupation of the area:

In Manchu-era the place was part of "East Tartary". During the Qing Empire era there were many Chinese settlements north of the Amur River, which lasted beyond the Treaty of Beijing and finally destroyed/expelled by Russian forces in 1900.

Through history, the territory had belonged to the Kingdoms of Gojoseon, Sushen, Xianbei, Buyeo, Mohe, Goguryeo, Balhae, Khitan (Liao), Jurchen, Mongol, Qing, etc. The current article make it sound like the place had little history and was vacant of people. There's also no mention of the 64 Chinese villages that the Russians destroyed in 1900.

-- Adeptitus 23:52, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Curious about history of flag

Could anyone direct me to information about the history of the Oblast's flag? I found one website[1] where a commentor mentioned that the Oblast presumably flew the Soviet flag until the fall of the USSR. Is this true? (I am not saying it should be in the article; I just don't know where else to ask this.) How can I find out when the Oblast began flying the current flag, and what the origins of the flag are? Was it modeled on the 'diversity flag' (rainbow flag, queer flag etc) or the other way around? Are the similarities a coincidence? I would appreciate any pointers abot learning this information. Mathtinder 03:50, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

As I can recall, the flag was selected in 1996 in the contest. One little girl painted this rainbow flag. Any ideology can be dragged after the flag is selected. But I think that the two main reasons for this flag are: it is pretty; JAO required its own flag. If you are interested, I found the following quote over the internet (translation from Russian): "JAO flag is accepted 31 July 1996. White color embodies purity in the wide sense - the purity of intentions, light outlooks and undertakings, honest carrying of duties. Rainbow is the Bible symbol of peace, kindness, happiness. Together rainbow stripes imply constant renovation, perfection of thoughts. Number of stripes in the rainbow - seven - corresponds to the number of candles in the Menorah (7-lights illuminator) - one of the most widespread national-religious symbols of Jewish people. Menorah tells about world creation in seven days, and the number of colors in the rainbow pictures the connection with ancient Jewish symbol." http://www.russia-today.ru/2003/no_17/17_symbols_2.htm

[edit] Synagogues

In Birobidzhan there are two synagogues: One of them is in the capital (there are Subbotniks, too). But where- in wich village or town- is the second Jewish synagogue?

The other synagogue, aside from the Birobidzhan Synagogue, is led by Boris "Dov" Kaufman. Culturalrevival (talk) 20:12, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Potentially useful source

I didn't really follow this one up, but William R. Siegel Nation Making in Russia’s Jewish Autonomous Oblast: Initial Goals and Surprising Results (cached on Google as [2] if you want to avoid the PDF) looks like a good source. It's on the site of Deokratizatsiya: Journal of Post-Soviet Democratization. - Jmabel | Talk 22:02, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Autonomous?

How autonomous is autonomous? The governance of this oblast is not mentioned anywhere in the article, and the details of the ways in which it is autonomous are similarly not explained here, nor in the autonomous oblast article. In addition, I would be curious as to how this came to be the only remaining autonomous oblast. Is it simply because the other ones are not geographically in what is now Russia? Why was this left autonomous after the USSR fell? LordAmeth 13:12, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

I'll try to add something about the nature of "autonomous" when I have time (which may not be for a while). You are completely right—this should definitely be mentioned. JAO used to be administratively a part of Khabarovsk Krai; now it is not, even though it was called "autonomous" back then as well.
As for why this is the only autonomous oblast in Russia, it's because all other autonomous oblasts of the Russian SFSR were at one point or another elevated to the status of the republic. JAO is the only one that remained an AO. Why exactly this happened can be a subject of a separate article :)—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 15:34, 5 February 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. Sometimes you come across one of these random articles, and you're just curious... Keep up the good work :) LordAmeth 19:38, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

The Shapiro dictionary indicates the gender of געגנט as masculine and explicitly translates Московская область as מאָסקווער געגנט. The use of a feminine form in the Yiddish Wikipedia notwithstanding, the masculine form also appears in the Weinreich and Niborski dictionaries. Given that the Shapiro dictionary is an authoritative source for Soviet Yiddish orthography, I feel it should be used in this article pending the explicit indication of a local source that uses the feminine form. --Futhark|Talk 10:38, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Weinreich's dictionary actually says gegnt can be either masculine or feminine. Don't be thrown off by Moskver gegnt; there is no adjective *moskv. Rather, Yiddish, like German, uses the suffix -er to form indeclinable adjectives of provenance from names of cities and countries (a parallel in German is die Berliner Mundart, where Mundart is feminine; with a real adjective it would be die berlinische Mundart). I did ask at yi:װיקיפּעדיע:בית מדרש#Grammar question before changing it, and the answer I got from the (presumably native or at least highly fluent) speaker there was that it should be Yidishe Oytonome Gegnt. —Angr 17:51, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
The Shapiro dictionary does not offer the feminine alternative, nor am I inferring masculine gender from its illustrational moskver gegnt. It is, however, the standard reference for Soviet Yiddish orthography in its fully mature state, and it has not been adequately demonstrated that the clearly more germanified approach generally adopted by the Yiddish Wikipedia is the more correct alternative in the present context. If you can cite warrant for the feminine form in some source more proximal to Birobidzhan there would be no need for further discussion. The recursive ascription of higher authority to the Wikipedia than to an established preexisting published source otherwise strikes me as counter to one of the Wikipedia's own fundamental editorial tenets (and more than a tad paradoxical). --Futhark|Talk 18:29, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not claiming Yiddish Wikipedia as an authority (until quite recently it had Yidisher Oytonome Gegnt, which is simply ungrammatical), but rather the native or fluent speaker at the help desk as well as the one who changed the name of the Yiddish Wikipedia article. At any rate, I agree a genuine authoritative source needs to be found; do we really know that this is the Yiddish name of the oblast at all? Or do we just assume it because the dictionaries tell us that Yiddish for "Jewish" is yidish, for "autonomous" is oytonom and "oblast" is gegnt? —Angr 18:57, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
All of the references that I have seen in Yiddish are either simply to ביראָ־בידזשאַן or to the ביראָבידזשאַנער אויטאָנאָמער געגנט. The most common English term is the Jewish Autonomous Region, usually abbreviated J.A.R. (Why does this article have a hybrid English-Russian title?) A Russian consular attaché would probably be a useful person to ask about citable references to the current local forms of the name, as well as the preferred form of reference to it in English discourse. --Futhark|Talk 19:27, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
J.A.O. seems to be a common name in English too. Merriam-Webster's Geographical Dictionary lists it as "Jewish Autonomous Oblast", as do Encarta and Britannica. "Region" gets more Google hits, though. (Jewish Autonomous Okrug also gets enough Google hits that I just made a redirect for it.) —Angr 19:41, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
The official Web site of the JAR government (using the English form indicated there) is http://www.eao.ru/. Although it doesn't seem to contain anything in Yiddish, a photograph of the sign on the government headquarters is online at http://www.2all.co.il/web/Sites/yiddishproject\15005_(9).jpg. It provides as authoritative a statement of the Yiddish name of the JAR as can be, corroborated by a second administrative sign at http://www.2all.co.il/web/Sites/yiddishproject\15005_(7).jpg, and the text on a local map at http://www.2all.co.il/web/Sites/yiddishproject\15005_(13).jpg. Shapiro confirms the spelling of "autonomous" with tsvey vovn, rather than vov yud, and I have modified the text in the article accordingly. My needing to take a return look at Shapiro to check this revealed that I had misread the gender indication for gegnt. Although I am embarrassed by — and apologize for — the fuss that I kicked up on the basis of that misreading, at least it triggered a successful hunt for the key piece of information. --Futhark|Talk 11:03, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stalin's anti-Semitic intent...

I was just wondering -- could Stalin's anti-Semitic reasons for creating the Jewish Autonomous Oblast (keeping the Jews away from central government and whatnot) have been influenced by his hatred of Trotsky? I'm obviously not very learned on the subject of the USSR, but it is something that interests me... Wobblies 14:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

What a bunch of crud. Before you call someone anti-Semetic, maybe you should provide some evidence. See: [3] & [4] --Mista-X 17:59, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
I was merely referencing part of the article ("Some have even claimed that Stalin was also motivated by anti-Semitism in selecting Birobidzhan: he wanted to keep the Jews as far away from the centers of power as possible.") As I said before, I'm no surely no scholar. Wobblies 02:29, 18 August 2007 (UTC)


It is a legitimate question. No name-calling please. ALLIANCE MARXIST-LENINIST is a partisan and unreliable source. I suggest you read authoritative scholarly sources. Thanks. ←Humus sapiens ну? 02:34, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] languages

The article says:

Official language
de jure: Russian, Yiddish
de facto: Russian

What would an "official de facto" language be? This compound epythet is a quintessential oxymoron!

194.65.103.1 13:00, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

It means that though both Russian and Yiddish are designated "official languages" in the constitution, only Russian is actually used in the operation of government (local laws are all written in Russian, not Yiddish etc).--Pharos 14:00, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Native Inhabitants

Is there anything known about the native inhabitants of the region before the Russian came? Who are they, are they extinct? The ethnic groups named under Demographics all seem to not be native to the region. --::Slomox:: >< 22:09, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Non-credible figure for modern Jewish population

I've removed the "speculative" figure of 16%, cited to this travel company website, which claims to be quoting from a book. This figure is so incredibly divergent from every other source it seems most likely the original was 1.6%, and someone just copied something poorly. This is quite apparently a simple error, rather than "speculation", which could produce a round number like 10% or 20%, but never 16%. I have not had a chance to look at the original book myself, but neither did the person who added this, so without evidence to the contrary I think this must go.--Pharos (talk) 07:38, 14 March 2008 (UTC)