Talk:Jerusalem/capital

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Jerusalem's status as capital

According to my American Heritage Dictionary, a capital is "A town or city that is the official seat of government in a political entity, such as a state or nation". Jerusalem fits this definition in regard of the State of Israel. This is not a matter of dispute. It is a simple fact.

A state capital serves many roles - and the location of foreign diplomatic missions is just one of them - hardly the most important. In all other regards, Jerusalem is serving as the capital of Israel, both formally (by laws passed by the Knesset), and practically - all the branches of Israeli government (Presidential, Legislative, Judicial, and Administrative) are seated in Jerusalem.

The fact that nearly all foreign countries chose to base their embassies to Israel outside Jerusalem (along with the US position on placing its own embassy) is discussed in detail inside the article. This fact is not central to the status of Jerusalem as capital (which is mainly an internal Israeli matter) - and does not require a mention in the introduction paragraph.

uriber 09:59, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Uriber is correct. There is a confusion about what the issue is. Most countries do not recognise Israel's annexation of the east part of Jerusalem and that is the reason (in theory!) they don't site their embassies there. It is not specifically about the role of Jerusalem as Israel's capital, nor anything specifically about the right of a country to choose its own capital even though it looks like that sometimes. If the annexation was accepted then the role as capital would immediately become a non-issue. --zero 12:28, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)


Well,GOOD LUCK in maintaining your language in the article.Wik deleted language I inserted yesterday THREE TIMES,after an earlier attempt to get the same issue mentioned in the "Tel Aviv" article was met not only with erasure but page-protection by jtdirl. The censors here are determined that there be no intimation that it is in any way unusual for countries to assert a right to decide what another country's capital is. I feel strongly enough about this that I have ceased to make contributions of any kind to Wikipedia,and if you look up my contributions(12.144.5.2) you'll see that I have a wide range of interests and knowledge. I refuse to be part of an entity that only tolerates distorted presentations of facts!

Louis Epstein/12.144.5.2/le@put.com

Please read the discustion of this topic at Talk:Israel/Archive 1. Most countries don't recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital, and it isn't really as unusual as it may seem for foriegn countries to make this distinction. - Efghij 19:18, Oct 3, 2003 (UTC)

Since Wik reverted my changes without making any attempt to answer my arguments here, I will try to un-revert. I hope that the fact that zero agrees with me on this one will at least make Wik and his friends think twice. I had several disputes with him over the last couple of weeks - and while I found his positions to be sometimes very different than my own - I came to respect him as a Wikipedian which is strongly devoted to the facts and to NPOV.

To Efghij - as I explained above, the fact that "most countries don't recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital" (which, BTW, i'm not sure is true - the fact that they don't keep their embassies in Jerusalem does not amount to a statement about whether it is the capital) has nearly no effect on its status as capital of Israel. If most countries won't recognize the sea to be wet, it will still be wet.

uriber 19:32, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

99% of the world does not recognize Jerusalem as capital so it is obviously POV to state "it is the capital of Israel". If a city is a capital of a country, it implies that the city is part of the country, which is what is disputed, and therefore it's not an internal matter. So all you can say is that it is the de facto capital. --Wik 20:15, Oct 3, 2003 (UTC)

The point is,countries claiming a right to decide what another country's capital is is just about unheard of.No other instances of this are alluded to in the Talk-Israel-Archive page that Efghij referred me to,and I can only think of one...whether East Berlin could be capital of divided East Germany.(The Soviets,whose sector it was under the Four Power Treaty,said yes,the other three Powers said no,and wouldn't let West Berlin be capital of West Germany). To say that telling a country "Your capital is City A,regardless of your government being in City B" is international business as usual is highly misleading and biased.

L.E.(12.144.5.2)

Ahhh, but the United Nations, a world council of countries, is based in New York City. Many countries have consulates there. Thus, according to the logic of some folks, NYC is the capital of the world, since there is a regular body of global policy based there, and many countries have consulates there, which might as well be embassies, and thus they recognize NYC as the world capital, eh? Rickyrab 20:23, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC) LOL Let's face it, the government of Israel runs the country from Jeruselem. Thus, Jerusalem, not Telaviv, is the capital of Israel.

You are not listening. I repeat: 1) The problem is not specifically the capital status of Jerusalem, but the status of the city itself. If you say "it is the capital of Israel" you're saying "it is a city in Israel". But this is disputed. 2) The fact that the government runs the country from Jerusalem makes Jerusalem no more and no less than the de facto capital. --Wik 20:33, Oct 3, 2003 (UTC)
But who is disputing that the western parts of Jerusalem are in Israel? Probably Libya, Iran, Sudan, and their friends. Hey - but these countries actually dispute Israel's right to exist at all - so they equally dispute that Tel Aviv (or any other city) is the capital of Israel. The fact that the government runs the country from Jerusalem makes it the de facto capital. The fact that the government (and the parliament) officially proclaimed Jerusalem as the capital makes it the de jure capital. Hence - it is the capital both de facto and de jure, and there is no need to complicate the article with this distinction. -- uriber 20:51, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Mind if I point out that Rome is the capital of Italy and the Vatican? (That's right, a city can be in more than one country and still be a capital. Moreover, Jerusalem is at least partly within the borders of Israel, as enforced by Israeli soldiers, and thus the countries delude themselves when they say that Israeli territory is not part of Israel!) Rickyrab 20:37, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

1) Rome is not capital of the Vatican City State; it just encloses that state, but that's just a geographic anomaly, the two are administratively distinct. 2) You still haven't grasped the difference between a de facto status enforced by soldiers and an internationally recognized de jure status (of course it's de jure according to Israeli law, but that's not the point). --Wik 21:02, Oct 3, 2003 (UTC)

Well, Rome and Vatican City are parts of the same conurbation, which could, for all intents and purposes, be called "Rome". I stand by my statement that Rome is the capital of two countries, for, even though the administration of those parts is different, those parts are still parts of the same city. (If you want to differentiate conurbations from cities, be my guest.) Rickyrab 22:13, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)


The capital of Vatican City is Vatican City as it is a city state. Secretlondon 22:25, Oct 3, 2003 (UTC)

Which is practically part of the metropolis of Rome. Rickyrab 22:29, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)


Personally,I think MY language that Wik censored is a good compromise between his and Rickyrab's.Continue to lead with the fact that the status is disputed,but admit that the idea of designating a city in another country's capital as that country's capital against that country's wishes is a very unusual practice.

L.E./12.144.5.2

If the sovereignty over a city is disputed, then of course any country's claims of capital status will be disputed. This consequence is not unusual at all. What's unusual is that a country claims a disputed territory as its capital in the first place. --Wik 21:02, Oct 3, 2003 (UTC)

You guys are being childish about this!

If the nation of Israel says Jerusalem is it's capital, lets say that! If others say it shouldn't be, lets say that too. At least part of Jerusalem has been inside Israel since 1948. DJ Clayworth 20:54, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

De facto, all of it is controlled by Israel. De jure, the status is not settled at all. The original UN plan was to internationalize the whole city. --Wik 21:02, Oct 3, 2003 (UTC)

"De jure" means "by law". By Israel's law, Yerushalayim is the capital of the country. Rickyrab 21:04, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I can't accept the "A says X, B says Y" solution. It's like if the Moon article will say "some people say the moon is made of green cheese, other say it is made of rock". This is simply not acceptable. The fact that Israel says Jerusalem is its capital (and acts accordingly) makes Jerusalem Israel's capital. Others might not like this, or might want this to change. However, their dislike of the facts does not change them. The moon is not made of green cheese even if all humanity really wants it to be. -- uriber 21:05, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Uri, The stuff the moon is made of is an empirical question that was settled when man landed there. The designation of capitals lies in the virtual realm. Jerusalem was declared by Israel as its capital. Most other countries decided otherwise. There is no way to "prove" either claim. I suggest you save your time and effort for worthier causes, rather than fight this lost one. Nahum 07:41, 15 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Jerusalem is the designated capital, and it's disputed. Wikipedia is here to record the facts. Lets record them, and move on. DJ Clayworth 21:08, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

As long as it's among the facts recorded that it is highly unusual to assert a right to determine another country's capital.The other countries aren't just saying "it's not Jerusalem",they are declaring "it's Tel Aviv",on NO authority but their own. It is hideous bias to pretend that this is business as usual between countries. L.E./12.144.5.2

L.E. - do you know if any countries actually claim Tel Aviv to be the capital of Israel? I know the people who keep reverting the Tel Aviv article think so - but I don't remember ever hearing any diplomatic source actually referring to Tel Aviv as Israel's capital. uriber 21:19, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

I'm sorry - certain things are matters of fact, not of opinion. The moon is not made of green cheese, and Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. Claims to the contrary can be acknowledged and presented - but this can be done only after clearly presenting the facts. -- uriber 21:15, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

How about "Israel uses Jerusalem as its meeting-place for government and calls Jerusalem its capital, but other countries call Tel Aviv Israel's capital"? Rickyrab 21:21, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

The comment of mine that Wik kept censoring was on the line where it said all but three countries regard Tel Aviv as capital...see also what jtdirl said on Talk:Tel Aviv. I am trying to have it admitted that the idea of a country picking a capital for another independent country on its own is a rather unusual practice,not business as usual...the local censors can not abide this. L.E./12.144.5.2

I thought it was all but two countries. Rickyrab 21:31, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)


Well done, Anthere. That's a good statement. Let's leave it there. DJ Clayworth 21:43, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Sorry, everybody. I just edited a "protected" article. I didn't realize it had been locked for editing when I did that, so I plead innocence. Still, if anyone wants it reverted on the grounds that I've unfairly used my sysop status... I hereby agree-in-advance to a reversion :-) --Uncle Ed 21:54, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

bad boy tse tse

I would like it reverted. The thing has already been edited three times since "protecting" it.


three times ? Well...as you wish...let's make it four :-)


You'll get no argument from me. Please, some sysop other than me, revert my change. --Uncle Ed 22:00, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)


interesting to note is that in other countries there are diplomatic representatives in cities other than the official capitol. Amsterdam or The Hague? Which is the capital of the Netherlands? Where are the embassies? Where is the seat of governement?

What this guy(the one writing above) fails to realize though is that the reason other countries do not recognize Jerusalem as the "capital city of Israel" is because the "israel" that many countries recognize(including the U.S & Britain)does not extend into the east side of Jerusalem thus making it divided, so in turn "Israel" cannot claim this to be their capital city if the most part of it is not even recognized by the world(who put them their in the first place might i add)

Capital of Israel

"Most foreign embassies are based in the Tel Aviv area, rather than in the capital Jerusalem, which is not internationally recognized."

Perhaps we'll have to say that Israel designated Jerusalem as its capital while being careful to emphasize that dozens (hundreds?) of other nations refused to recognize Jerusalem" as the capital.

Are foreign embassies typically hosted in a country's capital? I think this matters, because the act of locating, e.g., the Jamaican Embassy in Tel Aviv rather than in Jerusalem would seem a rather pointed statement that Jamaica did not accept Jerusalem as the capital. Whether that means they regarded Tel Aviv as the capital or not, I'm not so sure. It might just mean that "we have to put our embassy somewhere so it may as well be a big city where all the other embassies are". --Uncle Ed 22:06, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

No argument from me. I already made my points. Rickyrab 22:08, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

This could be handled with sensitivity by avoiding the word recognize altogther. Example: Israel delcared Jerusalem its capital in 1950, butmost other countries maintain their embassies in Tel Aviv.

I know that the reason the UK Embassy is in Tel Aviv is because the UK doesn't recognise Jerusalem is the Israeli Capital. I understand that the arguments in the US re: the Congress voting to move the embassy to Jerusalem were connected with recognising Jerusalem as Capital. Secretlondon 22:12, Oct 3, 2003 (UTC)

Moved here from Wikipedia:Protected page by Uncle Ed:

    • *sigh* more twisting the facts. Israel designated Jerusalem as its capital. Diplomatically that is not internationally accepted by over 100 countries (2 or 3 accept it), who still recognise the previous capital in 1948, Tel Aviv as the de jure capital. This was explained in an NPOV manner in Israel and accepted by everyone months ago. (Even RK accepted the wording as OK!) Uriber and Rickrab suddenly decided now to wage POV edit wars in Jerusalem and Tel Aviv to remove any mention of international controversy over the status of the two cities, even where it was carefully written in an NPOV manner so as not to state that Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel or that Jerusalem is not. Anthere protected the pages to stop the farce. FearÉIREANN 22:49, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)
      • Oh Jt; I just love your "Even RK accepted the wording as OK!". That is a reference !;-) Anthère
        •  :-) RK is so hypersensitive he reads anti-semitism in the location of a comma. Yet even he (after calming down) understood the point (no pun intended!). FearÉIREANN 23:15, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)
          • LOLOLOL!!!!!!! Silly fool that guy is. Rickyrab 23:17, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)
      • I was NOT waging the war to eliminate mention of controversy over the capital. I was waging the war to state that Israel's capital is Jerusalem, which is, after all, where the gov't is seated, and that other countries consider the capital to be Tel Aviv.Rickyrab 23:08, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC) By the way, I already made my points. Rickyrab 23:14, 3 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Dare we unprotect this page now? --Uncle Ed 01:14, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Yes, do, I'm ready to paste a new revision up! Thanks!
Uncle Ed, if it's going to be awhile, do you mind if I enter a list of typoes and spelling errors here for you to take care of? Our current old version has a few.... Pakaran 01:21, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)
'Tis unprotected. Good luck all :) --Camembert
Thanks :). Ignore the above, though - most of the things I saw were fixed by admins during the locked period. --Pakaran 01:28, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

borders

Many European maps show much of Jerusalem being in Palestine, and list Tel Aviv as the capital.

I Thought We'd Made Peace?

It seemed yesterday that all sides had accepted Anthere's version (last stable version), which retained my text noting that to declare a city in another country to be that country's capital against that country's wishes is highly unusual.Yet after the protection was lifted,someone snipped it out again.

If you can't show that this is remotely normal,don't let it pass as if it is!!

L.E./12.144.5.2/le@put.com

As I said before, it is perfectly normal that the world does not recognize a capital in a disputed area. --Wik 15:08, Oct 4, 2003 (UTC)

could you please discuss the topic here before going on a cycle of rv again ? ~:-) Anthère

It has all been discussed before. Also, Anthère didn't revert to the last stable version (which should be the rule when protecting a page) but to the version that sparked the edit war. I will continue to revert 12.144's bizarre text which gives the impression that the world is acting in an unusual way towards Israel, when in fact it's Israel's action that is unusual. --Wik 15:26, Oct 4, 2003 (UTC)

The "world" action is essentially without precedent.Name ANY other case in which a right to designate a city in another country as that country's capital,against that country's wishes,has been asserted! There is no excuse for treating this as a normal course of behavior.What excuse there may be for denying that Jerusalem is Israel's capital,does NOT automatically extend to allowing specifying someplace else as Israel's capital,and that at least has never been known in any other case.

L.E./12.144.5.2/le@put.com

It appears that the bane of this dispute is over the words "though the competence of other countries to decide what a given country's capital is has almost never been asserted elsewhere. " It is getting tiresome watching you two quibble over these words, it's very tempted to ask someone with admin rights to protect this article until you two start talking to each other & come to an agreement over this point. -- llywrch 01:33, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Yes,that is exactly the issue.He refuses to allow it to be said that REGARDLESS of the issue of whether or not Jerusalem is (wholly or partly) disputed,the idea of countries designating a city in another country as that country's capital is highly unusual. I am unaware of any instance that such a thing has ever happened elsewhere...it is a statement that needs to be made to make clear that this "co-ordinated diplomatic snub" (as jtdirl called in justifying erasing such a reference from the "Tel Aviv" article) is something that is far from business as usual between nations. Exact wording has varied in my attempts to get this across,but it is outrageous bias to just let it stand that other countries "regard Tel Aviv as the capital" without making clear that this is something very unusual.

L.E./12.244.5.2/le@put.com

Whilst nations refusing to recognise other nation's claims of a particular city being their capaital is unnusual, it is equally if nor more unnusual for a country to claim a capital in disputed territory. Northern Cyprus claim Nicosia as their capital, as does the south. But as no nation other than Turkey recognises Northern Cyprus, and consequently no-one recognises the capital of the north. Mintguy 01:52, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Yes,but if other countries DID recognize the Northern-Cypriot state,but declared its capital to be Kyrenia or Rizokarpaso,that would be the analogy.The countries who deny Israel exists aren't concerned with where its capital is. You can't cite any other cases where the international community is telling a country that it has a capital other than the city its government is in.

L.E./12.144.5.2/le@put.com

I thought the discussion was about diplomatic recognition of the status of Jerusalem; who said anything about "countries who deny Israel exists"? If you are saying that any country who don't have embassies in Jerusalem want to deny Israel exists (which appears to be what you are saying above), then you are arguing from a logical fallacy.
AFAIK, every nation gets criticized for one act or another by every other nation, & this criticism is often expressed in symbolic acts (e.g., the US would often assign high-level African-American diplomats to South Africa). If you can't accept that Israel is being criticized for their placement of their capital, then I suspect you will be having a hard time understanding other people's POV here on Wikipedia.
(P.S., the US also gets criticized thru symbolic acts. Because I don't obsess over them, I'm unable to recall any specific one off the top of my head.) -- llywrch 18:55, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Which city is Israel's recognized capital?

This sentence might not be true:

All other states with diplomatic relations to Israel continue to regard Tel Aviv as the Israeli capital...a gesture virtually unique in diplomatic history.

Let's separate out fact from interpretation:

  1. It is true that all other states with diplomatic relations to Israel maintain their embassies in Tel Aviv.
  2. It is an interpretation that the placement of the embassy in a city = regarding that city as the nation's capital

Pending any documentation that even ONE country calls Tel Aviv the capital of Israel, this sentence is best omitted from the article. --Uncle Ed 18:52, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)

The Israel article has the minumum which needs to be in a Jerusalem article:

"1 Jerusalem is Israel's officially designated capital, and the location of its presidential residence and parliament. However, most countries do not recognize this designation, considering the status of Jerusalem an unresolved issue due to what they perceive as illegal Israeli actions in both designating the city to be its capital and in its seizure of Arab East Jerusalem. They believe that the final issue of the status of Jerusalem will be determined in future Israeli-Palestinian negotiations; these states instead recognize Tel Aviv, the original capital for a time in 1948, as the continuous legitimate capital, and as a result keep their embassies there. See the article on Jerusalem for more."

And given the more undertaking, the issue needs to be more fully explained in this article. That includes noting the official UN position that the whole Jerusalem area is not part of Israel but is an international zone not part of either the Israeli or Arab states established by General Assembly resolution 181(11). See the UN Cartographic unit statement on the matter. Note that it both describes it as the captial and notes that it is disputed. Israel isn't supposed to like the UN Resolutions any more than Iraq or South Africa under Apartheid did. JamesDay 20:28, 6 Oct 2003 (UTC)

The Jerusalem article certainly looks better without the sentence than with the version Wik would not permit to be amended.

In the Talk page for the Tel Aviv article,jtdirl does mention the "co-ordinated diplomatic snub" of other countries regarding Tel Aviv as Israel's capital.So that IS an intended subtext of the embassy placement,though I note that embassies to Saudi Arabia are generally in Jidda,not Riyadh where the government is.This I think is the Saudi government's preference,not a slap at them.The idea of telling another country what its capital is is however highly unusual...and if this action is discussed,that it is unusual should at least be mentioned.

L.E./le@put.com/12.144.5.2


I have made a couple of factual corrections, notably:

  • the statement that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel is not accepted by most states, all of whom base their diplomatic representatives in Tel Aviv (The US only accepted Jerusalem in 2002!) I have put both side by side with a footnote explaining how most of the world regards one city as the valid Israeli capital, while the Israeli state regards another city. Accepting either city without mentioning the long running dispute is POV. This way, both the view of Israel and of most of the rest of the world are respected and explained in a NPOV manner;
  • Lest some people be confused and try to change what they think is an error, I have put in a footnote to explain that for a short period, Israeli prime ministers used to be directly elected, but that innovation had since been abandoned, having been seen as unsuccessful.
  • a list of additional external links covering everything from relations with the European Union, the possibility of EU membership, the EU's attitude towards Israeli government policy, a link to a report about the US accepting Jerusalem as the Israeli capital in late 2002 and to the allegations of ethnic cleansing made by Arabs against Israel. Proper links should allow a reader to find a variety of sources, both pro- and contra-. The previous links were all universally supportive one one viewpoint and so POV.
  • a neutrally worded few lines explaining in a non-judgment way the divergence between Israeli and Arab opinions on whether the Arabs displaced in 1948 left or were forced to leave, and how this divergence in analysis is central to the modern Israeli-Palestinian dispute. FearÉIREANN 23:18 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)
It is a terrible idea to start up all of these disagreements all over again. All of these issues are already discussed in great detail, in many other articles on Israel, all of which link here. Why are you proposing that we do all this arguing again? RK

Because without them the article is biased and POV. FearÉIREANN 00:52 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Capital of Israel

I think modification of the footnote by RK was more POV than Jtdirl's original. Yes, I do think Tel Aviv should be left out of the template. However, the fact that most embassies are located in Tel Aviv makes it function in the diplomatic sense like a capital. Saying "Israel regards..." is more NPOV. Otherwise, you're just spurning all those states who don't recognize Jerusalem. Now isn't that taking sides? I vote to revert (except the template). --Jiang 00:46 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I agree. JT's wording seemed to be far more professional and at least a bit more NPOV. --mav


Huh? It is grossly anti-Zionist and pro-Arab. How is lying about Israel's capital, and stating falsehoods, "professional"?

Actually I think all of this is somewhat misleading -- Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, and this has been recognized for decades by nearly all countries. In fact, nearly all countries (including the US and most EU countries) had their embassies in Jerusalem until the early 1980s, and this was not controversial in the least. What happened was that Israel unilaterally annexed East Jerusalem and some surrounding areas in the early 1980s, and the United Nations passed a resolution opposing the annexation and requesting its member states to move their embassies to Tel Aviv in protest; nearly all countries, including the US, did so (the US did not vote for the resolution, but did not veto it either, and followed its request). This resolution did not state the Jerusalem was not the capital of Israel though -- only that the unilateral expansion of its municipal boundary was unacceptable. So, while Tel Aviv functions as the diplomatic center for many nations, they still recognize Jerusalem as the capital. --Delirium 00:52 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

That is very interesting! Please integrate that into the text. --mav
I've made a first stab at it; correct as necessary. The article on Jerusalem has a lot more information. --Delirium 01:03 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Followup: so the comment Most states refuse to accept that designation in the footnote is factually incorrect. What most states refuse to accept is Israel's definition of the boundary of Jerusalem, not its being the capital. --Delirium 00:54 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Your text Stored version Line 73: Line 73:

Because without them the article is biased and POV. FearÉIREANN 00:52 11 Jul 2003 (UTC) Because without them the article is biased and POV. FearÉIREANN 00:52 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)
Nonsense. You aren;' even looking in the correct article. Please read our many articles on these subjects. You can't claim that other articles (such as this one) are biased because the same damn arguments aren't repeated yet again. The topics you mention are already covered so extensively in Wikipedia that to claim we are leaving out is silly. We only need links to them. RK 01:04 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Capital of Israel

Actually I think all of this is somewhat misleading -- Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, and this has been recognized for decades by nearly all countries. In fact, nearly all countries (including the US and most EU countries) had their embassies in Jerusalem until the early 1980s, and this was not controversial in the least. What happened was that Israel unilaterally annexed East Jerusalem and some surrounding areas in the early 1980s, and the United Nations passed a resolution opposing the annexation and requesting its member states to move their embassies to Tel Aviv in protest; nearly all countries, including the US, did so (the US did not vote for the resolution, but did not veto it either, and followed its request). This resolution did not state the Jerusalem was not the capital of Israel though -- only that the unilateral expansion of its municipal boundary was unacceptable. So, while Tel Aviv functions as the diplomatic center for many nations, they still recognize Jerusalem as the capital. --Delirium 00:52 11 Jul 2003 (UTC) Actually I think all of this is somewhat misleading -- Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, and this has been recognized for decades by nearly all countries. In fact, nearly all countries (including the US and most EU countries) had their embassies in Jerusalem until the early 1980s, and this was not controversial in the least. What happened was that Israel unilaterally annexed East Jerusalem and some surrounding areas in the early 1980s, and the United Nations passed a resolution opposing the annexation and requesting its member states to move their embassies to Tel Aviv in protest; nearly all countries, including the US, did so (the US did not vote for the resolution, but did not veto it either, and followed its request). This resolution did not state the Jerusalem was not the capital of Israel though -- only that the unilateral expansion of its municipal boundary was unacceptable. So, while Tel Aviv functions as the diplomatic center for many nations, they still recognize Jerusalem as the capital. --Delirium 00:52 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

That is very interesting! Please integrate that into the text. --mav
Followup: so the comment Most states refuse to accept that designation in the footnote is factually incorrect. What most states refuse to accept is Israel's definition of the boundary of Jerusalem, not its being the capital. --Delirium 00:54 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)  : Followup: so the comment Most states refuse to accept that designation in the footnote is factually incorrect. What most states refuse to accept is Israel's definition of the boundary of Jerusalem, not its being the capital. --Delirium 00:54 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

It seems to me that no one, other than Israelis, have any say in this matter. The capital of any nation is what its citizens say it is, period. That is not POV or an opinion, that is an indisputable fact. Since when do non-Israelis have any say over what the capital of Israel is? How would Catholic Italians like it if all the Jews and Muslims in the world united and claimed that Rome was not the capital of Italy? Besides being anti-Catholic and anti-Italian, it would also be false. Facts cannot be created by popular vote. We can say that most nations do not respect Israel's choice of capital, because that is a fact. But to claim that any other city is Israel's capital is a deliberate fiction, and totally unsupportable. RK 01:04 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

If many of the functions normally carried out in a capital are carried out somewhere else then we need to report that. --mav 01:08 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)
You need to read more carefully. The footnote never claimed that Jerusalem was not the capital and Tel Aviv was. It only stated "Israel regards" Jerusalem as the capital while other states do not. We didn't come out and say "Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel." How clearer can that be? We have to simply regard the truth--who regards what. Trying to ignore opinions and positions with undenably exist by labelling them "anti-Semetic" doesn't cut it. Now it is cleared out. --Jiang


The refusal to accept Jerusalem as the capital predates the takeover of Arab East Jerusalem. The international stance was that Jerusalem lacked the clarity of acceptance required in diplomatic protocol to be accepted as a capital. Its boundaries were questionable, its unified status illegal and its symbolism provocative. Thus from the foundation of the state, international states refused point blank to accept any right by Israel to claim a disputed city as its capital. When Israel contrary to international law took over the whole city, that enflamed those convictions further. Old copies of World Book, for example, stated that the capital of Israel was Tel Aviv. Diplomatic documents unambiguously listed the capital as Tel Aviv. Ambassadors were accredited to Tel Aviv, diplomatic compounds opened in Tel Aviv. Some opened consular missions, some embassies physically in Jerusalem while saying that did not mean recognition. And most of those ones pulled out when Israel took over Aran East Jerusalem contrary to international law.

There may be good reasons why Jerusalem should be the capital (I am not taking sides on that) but the fact is that some states say it is, most say it isn't, and no state has the unfettered freedom to designate a city as its capital. 99 times out of 100, the choice is so uncontroversial that they know there will be no problem. But if there is a problem once you are a member of the diplomatic community you are supposed to work on a protocol level with everyone else, including trying to smooth any problems that may arise over the designation of a capital. Listing either Jerusalem or Tel Aviv in isolation would be POV. Listing both, with a footnote explaining that Israel regards 'x' as its capital, most of the world regards 'y', is strict down the line neutrality, the NPOV that is at the heart of wikipedia. FearÉIREANN 01:15 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

In case anyone was wondering what countries do recognize Jerusalem as the capital, here is a complete list:

  • Costa Rica
  • El Salvador
  • United States

- Efghij

The question, I think, is one between de-jure and de-facto status. It has already been proven that the great majority of diplomatic functions are carried out in Tel Aviv. But that is only one function that a capital plays; more important is its role in the ruling of its nation. So where is the government of Israel based? Where does the Prime Minister have his office? I'm pretty sure the answer is Jerusalem.

Having just Jerusalem in the table with a footnote ref seems to be enough but I am slightly in favor of listing both since there are notable capital-like functions carried out in Tel Aviv and many nations do only recognize Tel Aviv. In short I can live with both options so long as the footnote stays in. --mav

More info: Tel Aviv was named as the provisional capital in 1948. It was intended by the international community to be the capital of Israel, with Jerusalem an international city. Israel's unilateral move to turn Jerusalem into its capital was viewed by the international community as a breach of the rules and agreements under which Israel was set up and was universally rejected as illegal, its non-capital status being one of the fundamental rules laid down at the start, because of the belief that making it the jewish capital would be an affront to other faiths (christians, muslims) who also saw Jerusalem as their city. The UN agreement on Jerusalem was on the basis that it would be in effect an open city, without any side assuming symbolic political control. In the last fifty years few states have accepted Jerusalem as Israel's capital. There was signs of some movement in the 1960s, but the seizure of Arab East Jerusalem reinforced the determination of the world community not to accept what it continues to regard as Israel's illegally declared new capital. In the US, for example Israeli groups have campaigned for decades to get Jerusalem accepted, on the basis that if the US accepted it, its NATO allies would and that would create a situation where it would get overwhelming international support. Though the US did finally accept Jerusalem in 2002 (something G.W. Bush supported in his 2000 campaign) other states have not followed suit and remain adamant that Tel Aviv is the legal capital as agreed when Israel was founded, with the capitalisation of Jerusalem a breach of law. FearÉIREANN 01:47 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

While this may be moving more into the range of political debate than wiki-debate, I'm not sure how anyone could claim that Israel making Jerusalem a capital is a breach of law. It is agreed by nearly all sides that West Jerusalem is part of Israel proper, as it's behind the 1967 "Green Line" that all but the most radical groups accept as the minimum boundaries of Israel proper. So, given that it's part of the country, and given that countries are allowed to choose the location of their own capitals, I don't see the problem. Claiming Jerusalem as an "undivided" capital of Israel -- as Israel has done -- is certainly problematic though. But that doesn't mean it'd be illegal to stick government buildings serving capital functions in West Jerusalem. --Delirium 01:54 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

To resolve this issue I think some more research is needed. At the very least, does anyone know the following: which countries had their embassies in Jerusalem up until 1981, and only moved them to Tel Aviv following the UN resolution, vs. which countries have always had their embasses in Tel Aviv. --Delirium 01:56 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Alright, well I'm still researching, but as far as I can tell the following are (some of) the facts. Originally Jerusalem was supposed to be an open city, under neither Israeli nor Arab sovereignty. However, in the 1948 war both sides violated this, Israel occupying the West portion, and Jordan occupying the East portion (and both sides expelled some of the other side's population). I'm not sure what the diplomatic status of Jerusalem was 1948-1967 -- whether there were embassies there or not, and whether Israel's government was located primarily there. In 1967 Israel occupied East Jerusalem. In the ensuing decade they began de facto integrating it into the City of Jerusalem as one municipality, and making it the country's capital; but this was all unofficial. I believe there may have been several embassies there, but I'm unable as of yet to find a list. In 1980 the Knesset officially annexed East Jerusalem (and surrounding areas), declaring Jerusalem the undivided capital of Israel, despite Security Council warnings not to do so; so in 1981 the Security Council condemned the attempt to change the status and character of Jerusalem (by a vote of 14-0-1, US abstaining), declared the action void, and requested all member states to withdraw diplomatic missions from the city as a punitive measure. This is when the US embassy moved to Tel Aviv; I don't know which other embassies moved at this time as well, but I was under the impression that it was at least several, and possibly many.
The upshot of all this is: we need to find out whether other countries recognized West Jerusalem as capital in the period 1948-1967 and then in the period 1967-1980. Most today do not, but was this a punitive measure following the 1981 SC resolution, or has this always been the case?
In any case, in light of more information I'll change my original position. However, rather than "Jerusalem/Tel Aviv1", I think we should put "Jerusalem (disputed)1" with the explanation in the footnote. --Delirium 02:12 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)
I really like that solution. --mav

I would avoid (disputed) if possible. a) it is provocative, and I can see people queueing up with an 'no now it is not, oh yes it is' barney. and b) it isn't so much that one city is disputed, rather that two cities are endorsed by different groups. Putting them both in with a footnote is more NPOV than one either one would be with (disputed),

The boundaries of the original Israel as agreed when the state was founded were changed dramatically when Israel came into being, unilaterally by Israel. One of those areas whose status was changed unilaterally was Jerusalem, and that is separate to making its capital. Israel's effective seizure of Jerusalem and making it its capital was a breach of an internationally registered treaty and thus, like the breaking of any internationally registered treaty, illegal. While Israel could probably have secured eventual agreement on Jerusalem had in waited for a few years, its illegal assumption of it as its capital effectively pissed off the international community. By the 1960s, it could perhap have gained acceptance for West Jerusalem as its capital, but for its illegal seizure of East Jerusalem. The annexation of East Jerusalem further hardened most of the international community against accepting Jerusalem as the capital.

Re Efghi's complete list of those accepting Jerusalem as the Israeli capital, I knew the list was small, but 3 countries! Yikes! If Efghi is correct and only Costa Rica, El Salvador, United States accept Jerusalem as Israel's capital, that means in or around 150 don't, in which case we cannot possibly put down Jerusalem on its own as the capital. Even World Book, notorious as the most right encyclopædia, and the most pro-Israeli, used to list Tel Aviv not merely as one of the capitals, but the only one. That clearly would be wrong here (after all, since those days, the list of those accepting Jerusalem has grown from 2 to 3!) but both should be in, with the footnote explaining how the state of Israel insists on one city, and the diplomatic world bar 3 on another. FearÉIREANN 02:20 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Well, the boundaries weren't exactly changed unilaterally by Israel -- the Arab states refused to accept the 1948 Partition Plan, and invaded Israel. Israel came out on top in the war, but they hardly started it. Not that their actions since then have been exactly noble, but they don't deserve blame for failure of the original partition plan -- Jordan, Syria, and Egypt primarily do. --Delirium 02:24 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I agree. But the result was that Israel got control of territory that it was not suppose to have. I can understand why and how, but it did sour relations with what it then did in Jerusalem. FearÉIREANN 02:27 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Re Efghi's complete list of those accepting Jerusalem as the Israeli capital, I knew the list was small, but 3 countries! Yikes! If Efghi is correct and only Costa Rica, El Salvador, United States accept Jerusalem as Israel's capital, that means in or around 150 don't, in which case we cannot possibly put down Jerusalem on its own as the capital. Even World Book, notorious as the most right encyclopædia, and the most pro-Israeli, used to list Tel Aviv not merely as one of the capitals, but the only one. That clearly would be wrong here (after all, since those days, the list of those accepting Jerusalem has grown from 2 to 3!) but both should be in, with the footnote explaining how the state of Israel insists on one city, and the diplomatic world bar 3 on another. FearÉIREANN 02:20 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I have made a couple of minor changes to tighten up and NPOV the footnote. Saying "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is clearly POV since some people think so, others don't. I've put that in as the more NPOV "Jerusalem is Israel's officially designated capital." Other slight adaptions were made to avoid taking sides in the debate and leave it up to the reader to decide, not the writer to tell them what to decide. FearÉIREANN 02:52 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Yeah, looks good to me. I think this issue should be handed somewhat similarly to the issue at Republic of Macedonia -- the UN, along with most of the world, does not recognize the name of that country, due to objections from several sources (but mainly Greece, which claims the name "Macedonia" as its own), but we still list the country under that name because it's the one they officially designate. Similarly, I think we should list Jerusalem as the official capital of Israel, despite others disagreeing (but should of course note those disagreements). --Delirium 03:41 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)~

Out of curiousity, how is Macedonia referred to in the US? In Europe it is known as the FYRM - Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia.

Re how to refer to Jerusalem - if the US still had its pre-2002 stance of recognising Tel Aviv as the capital, then wiki could use Jerusalem without any problems. But given that the US now regards Jerusalem as the capital, that makes it complicated for wiki, namely that the impression might be given that wiki is doing what it does because most of its contributors are American, it reflecting US viewpoints even when that US viewpoint is as in this case very much a minority viewpoint worldwide. I have no problem whether to list Jerusalem or Jerusalem/Tel Aviv (though I would marginally prefer J/T - and not just because it my initials!) but if wiki chooses the former, it would help if it could find some way of showing (as is the case) that its stance is based objectively on an overall wiki policy and is not reflecting either the American stance on Jerusalem or the internationally perceived American bias towards Israel.

Perhaps a general wiki disclaimer could be constructed, to cover places like Macedonia/FYRM, Northern Ireland (where you have Derry/Londonderry debates), here with Jerusalem vs Jerusalem/Tel Aviv, saying in effect where a dispute exists as to names to use, wikipedia's policy is use the official designation given by the relevant local authority. That should not be taken to indicate that wikipedia is expessing an opinion on the dispute in question ie, attention greeks, using Macedonia does not mean wiki is taking sides in the 'what to call Macedonia' debate, using Derry or Londonderry does not mean we are siding with either the nationalists or unionists. And using Jerusalem does not mean wiki is endorsing the Israeli viewpoint or siding with Israel, the US, El Salvador and Costa Rica against the rest of the world. It is simply following a standard wiki approach universally applied. Such a disclaimer might not seem important, but Macedonia is a massive issue for Greeks. If they were to think that wiki was "anti-Greek" wiki could kiss goodbye to having many friends in Greece. And putting in Jerusalem and so apparently endorsing the Israel stance in the face of worldwide opposition would hardly do wiki a hell of a lot of good in the Arab world. (Though it would make RK's millennium!) It is in our interests on these touchy issues (and lots more will arise) if we have to take a stance to minimise the danger of two much being read into it, with wiki unless it is cearly explained, being seen as biased in some way. FearÉIREANN 04:56 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Capital: the first phrase

I checked my dictionary again, and it still says that a capital is "A town or city that is the official seat of government in a political entity, such as a state or nation."[1] Since Jerusalem is a city, and is the official seat of the government of Israel (which is a state), it fits the definition perfectly.

Moreover, the fact that a city is the capital of a state is usually mentioned on Wikipedia in the first paragraph of the article on the city (see for example Paris or Rome). I see no reason why the same practice should not be followed in this case.

Wik, or the Arab world, or the UN, or every single person on the face of this earth might not like the fact that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, might consider it "illegal", "immoral", "annoying" or anything else. Nothing of that changes the fact that it is the capital of Israel.

This is a very important issue to me. If Wikipedia fails to note simple, streightforward, facts (like this encyclopedia or this lexical databse do), just because someone is unhappy with them or "does not officially recognize them", then Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia but a political pamphlet.

I see this a somewhat of a test case. If I can't trust Wikipedia on simple issues such as this, I'll be forced to look elsewhere for my information (and I'll certainly be less enthusiastic in contributing to Wikipedia). I'm sure lots of you won't miss me.

-- uriber 21:39, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree. The current wording is like answering the question "what is the capital of Israel?" with "uh.. difficult question...". First and foremost WP is about to educate and I do believe it is of general interest for readers to know that most believe Jerusalem is Israel's capital. To be educative and understandable is more important than 100% NPOV accuracy IMHO. Wouldn't it be enough with "Jerusalem, capital of Israel (see not below)"? The "ancient capital of the Kingdom of Israel and Kingdom of Judah" however, does not belong in the first sentence because of obvious reasons. BL 22:51, Feb 23, 2004 (UTC)

Uriber, I would not like to see you leave but threatening to leave is probably a useless gesture. Anyway, to address this topic, I wonder if you would accept a diplomatic wording like "Israel's official capital" in the first sentence. It isn't quite as direct a statement as "the capital of Israel" but it would have the advantage of being more readily defended against attacks like Wik is mounting. On the second point, I agree with BL that the "ancient capital" part should not be in the first sentence. It is too much like "it was Jewish before the Jews were kicked out, then nothing happened for 2000 years, then it was Jewish again". It is strongly POV like that. --Zero 00:19, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Although I'm not thrilled with either of the suggestions above ("see note below" and "Israel's official capital"), I find them both acceptable (Zero's suggestion flows better with the text, I think). I agree that "ancient capital of the Kingdom of Israel and Kingdom of Judah" does not belong in the intro paragraph.
I'm sorry if what I said was interpreted as a threat. As I said, I didn't really expect anyone to get excited or worried about it. I did, in fact take a two-months leave from Wikipedia in October, when Wik's version was protected, and I returned when I noticed that it was corrected - both without making any announcements or "threats". -- uriber 10:07, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I am concerned that Wik has returned to push his POV once again, even though I thought a compromise was achieved back in October. (Did the language change significantly since then? If so, that should have been pointed out on this Talk: page.) As I understand the facts that this disagreement keeps chasing round & round are:
  • Jerusalem was annexed following the 1968 War, unlike other territories it conquered. (And many of which have since been either returned to the original countries, or are acknowledged to be part of a Palestinian state.)
  • Israel then made Jerusalem its official capital.
  • This act was objected to by Arab nations, as well as a number of European nations, who expressed their displeasure by keeping their embassies in Tel Aviv.
  • Israelis believe this is meddling in their internal affairs.
  • Only the US & a few countries under US influence have relocated their embassies in Jerusalem.
As a result, although Jerusalem is the de jure capital of Israel, this act is not recognized by the majority of other nations.
Is there a way to focus on the facts of the dispute, & stop asserting whether Jerusalem is or is not the capital? -- llywrch 19:21, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Your first two points are factually wrong: The first only applies to the eastern part of Jerusalem (which was annexed following the 1967 war). Jerusalem was made capital way before that, in 1950.
I misspoke about East Jerusalem & the Old Town. However, this is the first I had heard that the capital had been moved so early. -- llywrch
Read Wikipedia - it's a pretty good source for such things :-) -- uriber 17:56, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Jerusalem is both the de jure capital of Israel (as officially stated by Israeli law), and the de facto capital (it is the seat of the Parliament, Prisident's residence, Prime Minister's office, supreme court, etc.). Hence it is easier simply to say that it is the capital of Israel.
Have they been in East Jerusalem since 1950, & was the Old City incorporated into that municipality in 1967? -- llywrch
They haven't been in "East Jerusalem" in since 1950, and they're not there now. The Old City became part of Israeli Jerusalem when it was annexed following the Six-day war (in 1968, I think). -- uriber 17:56, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Location of embassies, and the recognition of Jerusalem as capital by foreign nations (which I'm not even sure is a real thing. I never heard of the concept of a nation recognizing (or not recognizing) another nation's capital, except in this case) - those issues are important enough to be mentioned in the article, but not important enough, IMO, to be mentioned in the first paragraph.
It's a diplomatic snub, as I said some months back. But I would be willing to agree to your point about not needing to mention this dispute explicitly in the first paragraph, as long as there is something like "(See further below)" next to it. -- llywrch
It's pretty common to give the basic facts in the intro paragraph, and to expand on them "below". I don't see a specific reason to say "see below" in this case, although if that's what it takes to reach an agreement, I'll accept it. -- uriber 17:56, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
The title of this article is "Jerusalem", not "Disputes regarding Jerusalem". Therefore, the focus has to be first and foremost on facts about Jerusalem (such as it being the capital), and only then on the dispute. -- uriber 19:43, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
And we have (I just looked) an extensive section on the history of the city, therefore shouldn't this be moved to "History of Jerusalem"? The argument is the same for both; & the article is very long & in need of breaking up. -- llywrch
I'm not sure what exactly you're proposing to move to "History of Jerusalem". Certainly the fact that it's the capital should appear in the main article. -- uriber 17:56, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Oh, and your last point is factually wrong as well, of course. the United States keeps its embassy in Tel-Aviv. I'm not sure how much Costa Rica and El Salvador are "under US influence". As far as I know, the reason that Costa Rica has its embassy in Jerusalem is that there is an article in Costa Rican law saying something like "Costa Rica shall locate its embassies at the capitals of countries". And since Costa Rica abides by its own laws, its embassy is located at Jerusalem, which is the capital. Other countries do not have similar laws, and therefore can, when it is politically convinient for them, locate their embassies at cities other than the capital, such as Tel-Aviv. -- uriber 19:52, 24 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Everything I have heard points to Costa Rica and El Salvador locating their embassies there entirely at the persuasion of the US. And this is the first that I have heard the US's ambassidor was not in Jerusalem; the fact the embassy was moved to Jerusalem is a point of contention within the US. -- llywrch 00:54, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Uriber is correct on all points. Sorry you are wrong, llywrch. The facts are very easy to check, all one needs is NPOV:
Humus sapiens 01:07, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)


Just for comparsion, Britannica's versions of Paris and Jerusalem. May I suggest that we outright steal Britannica's Jerusalem article's first two sentences (not illegal)? Just to end the silly conflict. BL 21:34, Feb 24, 2004 (UTC)

Excellent idea, BL. Here it is for convenience, reworded just enough to make it into sentences:

Jerusalem <multilanguage stuff> is an ancient city of the Middle East that since 1967 has been wholly in the possession of Israel. In 1949 the city was proclaimed its capital by Israel.

Does anyone object to these two sentences becoming the first paragraph of the article? Wik, please reply! --Zero 01:38, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

That's OK. --Wik 03:16, Feb 25, 2004 (UTC)
This is not much better than the current bad wording. I am against this Britannica's phrase on Jerusalem. BTW, the Paris text is OK by me, and also in favor of the compromise proposed by Zero earlier. This "silly conflict" is a part of consistent campaign to delegitimize Israel. Humus sapiens 03:12, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Content-wise, that seems fine with me, but how is that not a copyright violation? As to delegitimizing Israel, it is part of a campaign, perhaps, to delegitimize Israel's possession of Jerusalem. I don't know that one can say it is a campaign to delegitimize Israel as a whole. john 04:27, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It takes more than a few bland sentences to violate copyright. Anyway, here is another option that incorporates my wording suggested before.

Jerusalem <multilanguage stuff> is an ancient city of the Middle East, Israel's official capital since 1949.

How about that for the entire first paragraph? --Zero 05:32, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

No. I don't see how that is preferable to the present version. --Wik 05:58, Feb 25, 2004 (UTC)
The present version is not stable as you know. Sooner or later someone will add "the capital of Israel" into the first sentence and the reversion war will begin again. My suggestion is a compromise that states a plain fact about Jerusalem without indicating approval or disapproval of it. --Zero 06:21, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
That will not be any more stable, because I will revert it. "Official capital" makes it sound even more legitimate than simply "capital". It is not a fact. I think the fact that it is disputed territory should be mentioned first, and then the fact that Israel declared it its capital, although this is not recognized by the rest of the world. --Wik 07:24, Feb 25, 2004 (UTC)
This is much better: short and neutral fact, no modal verbs. --Humus sapiens 07:01, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
(Sorry, missed this before when scanning changes). Yes - sounds OK to me (although I don't really see what the word "official" adds. Is there such a thing as an "unofficial capital"?) -- uriber 22:41, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

On a question of facts, I think 1949 is more accurate than 1950. The first Knesset was officially opened in Jerusalem in Feb 1949 but the sessions were held near Tel-Aviv (supposedly because the facilities were inadequate in Jerusalem). In Dec 1949, Ben-Gurion told the Knesset that the Kneset would be returned to Jerusalem which "has always been and always will be [the] capital". This period involves the genesis of the dispute over the siting of the capital, since the UN Trusteeship Council was still trying to make Jerusalem into an international enclave at the same time as Israel was moving more and more government functions there. --Zero 05:32, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The Knesset moved to Jerusalem in December 1949, but the definite proclamation was made January 23, 1950. --Wik 05:58, Feb 25, 2004 (UTC)
But the 1950 proclamation didn't state that Jerusalem was the capital from that moment on, but rather that it was the capital already. It was claimed to be an affirmation of the status quo rather than the creation of a new status. --Zero 06:21, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Well, that was just rhetoric, since before that date this claim was not explicitly made. --Wik 07:24, Feb 25, 2004 (UTC)
Well, you are wrong. I quoted such an explicit claim just above and there were others like it. I can also produce UN documents from 1949 in which Israel claims Jerusalem as the capital. --Zero 08:06, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Ben-Gurion's words weren't the law. There was nothing official, otherwise there would have been no need for the 1950 declaration. --Wik 19:02, Feb 25, 2004 (UTC)

Well, assuming copyright is not violated, the Britannica version seems fine. At any rate, I think anything which reeks of "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" with no qualification is to be avoided. Beyond that, there's probably various acceptable formulations. I wonder, is there any other example of a country whose capital is disputed in this way? Hopefully one which is rather less fraught with emotional baggage? What about East Berlin as capital of the German Democratic Republic? Surely there were similar issues involved with that, weren't there? john 07:38, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, but I have to say "no" to the Britanninca version (I agreed to two previous proposals, so I hope this won't be considered stubbornness). No argument was presented in favor of this version (except for "that's what Britannica says"). In fact, I haven't heard any real counter-argument to my original argument (Jerusalem fits the definition of "capital"). What people are saying is basically "you are correct, but putting this into the article will piss off many people, so let's find some way to weasel out of it". I'm reluctant to accept this reasoning, but I was willing to go with it a little bit. The "Britannica version" goes too far. We should also remember that Britannica is a commercial enterprise - they have to sell their encycloedia, and therefore "keep people happy" might be a legitimate consideration for them. I don't think it is for us.

Notwithstanding the above, if I'm out-voted and the "Britannica version" is accepted (once again - I very much hope this does not happen), I'd like to point out that Britannica does not mention anything about "not recognized internationally" or "most embassies are in Tel-Aviv" in the two opening paragraphs. Therefore "accepting the Britannica approach" should also mean removing these statements from our opening paragraphs.

(and I apologize for taking time to respond. I do have a job, and I also have to sleep from time to time)

-- uriber 17:45, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have refuted all of this back in October and I will not get into this again. --Wik 19:02, Feb 25, 2004 (UTC)


Jerusalem does not fit the definition of capital because many countries do not recognize Jerusalem to be a part of Israel. Certainly the Israeli government's position that all of Jerusalem is the capital of Israel is not accepted. Again, does anybody know anything about the way the question of East Berlin, as capital of East Germany, was treated at the time? Since, presumably, whatever emotional issues attached to the question of East Berlin have largely settled down since 1989, this might prove a useful model, since Berlin was, I think, officially considered to still be under four power control for much of the DDR's existence. john 19:56, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)
I'm not aware of any definition saying that a capital of a state has to be "recognized by all (or some) countries to be part of that state". Please provide a reference to such a definition, if there is one. The question whether part or all of Jerusalem being capital of Israel is "accepted" or not is separate from the question whether Jerusalem is, or isn't the capital. What's debated here is the latter. -- uriber 21:14, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Hmm, so if, say, the government of Zimbabwe transferred operations to the Zimbabwean consulate in Vladivostok and declared that to be its capital, we should just say that Vladivostok is the capital of Zimbabwe? Obviously an extreme case, much more so than that of Jerusalem, but the basic fact is that this is a complicated issue, and I don't see why some kind of explanation of the situation, rather than a direct statement that is sure to offend people, is inappropriate. john 02:06, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Well, if they would regularly hold sessions of the Zimbabwean parliament in Vladivostok, move the president's office there, move the supreme court there, accept official letters of credence from foreign ambassadors there, and generally govern the country from there, I would be inclined to say that Vladivostok is the capital of Zimbabwe (even if most foreign embassies are still in Harare). I would perhaps hesitate a bit in this very contrived and unrealistic example, since Vladivostok is not actually in Zimbabwe. Jerusalem, on the other hand, is a city in Israel - so saying "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" does not cause the same uneasy feeling as saying "Vladivostok is the capital of Zimbabwe" in your imaginary example. If you need me to explain why Jerusalem is in Israel (in spite of "many nations not recognizing", etc.), please ask and I'll explain. -- uriber 18:04, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Ironically, John's example applies, but not where he intended. Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital for over 3,300 years. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanakh, 0 times in the Koran. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. In the search of historical precedents, try to find another nation which was expelled from their homeland for almost 2 millenia but never abandoned it and their capital. --Humus sapiens 21:18, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, but I'm with Wik on this. You can't just say Jerusalem is the capital of Israel while being neutral. Rather say something like they treat it as their capital. -- Dissident 20:22, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

No need to be sorry, you're entitled to your opinion. However, since this is a discussion, not a vote, it would be more productive if you give reasons for your opinion, rather than just state it. Specifically:
  • Do you think that "you can't just say Jerusalem is the capital" because it is not actually the capital, or is it despite the fact that it is actually the capital?
  • If the former is correct, what definition of "capital" are you using, and in what way does Jerusalem not fit it?
  • If it's the latter, what would be the reason for omitting this fact from the first paragraph in an article about Jerusalem?
I'm eagerly expecting your answers (although I'll probably be able to see them only about a day from now). -- uriber 21:24, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I saw Wik's comment: (3 Zionist POV pushers is not "nearly everyone") - The first, and quite possibly last, time I have seen Zero0000 described as Zionist... Martin 21:43, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Jerusalem does not necessarily fit the definition because no other country in the world recognizes East Jerusalem to even be a part of Israel. To call "Jerusalem" (as opposed to "West Jerusalem") the capital of Israel is to acknowledge Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem. Similarly, East Berlin, and not Berlin, was the capital of the German Democratic Republic. (And, analogously, even East Berlin is a dubious case, because Berlin remained under four power control, at least theoretically, throughout much of the 2 Germanies period. Similarly, many countries never recognized West Jerusalem as a rightful part of Israel, which is why they put their embassies in Tel Aviv to begin with). At any rate, my point in the Zimbabwe example was that the reason for the dispute is that many people don't recognize Jerusalem (or, at the very least, all of Jerusalem) to be a part of Israel, which is why it's problematic to say it's the capital. Vladivostok as theoretical capital of Zimbabwe is similarly problematic, due to that city's not being a part of Zimbabwe, in spite of it being declared the capital. Also, how to deal with governments in exile? Were the capitals of Poland, Czechoslovakia, the Netherlands, Norway, Belgium, etc. etc. etc. in London during the Second World War? At any rate, the issue is complicated, and we shouldn't simply say the one thing. The very fact that there are many users saying that we shouldn't just say that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel suggests that to say so would be POV, and that we need a less controversial formulation. john 23:18, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

When you say "the definition" - what definition do you mean? The one I provided doesn't say anything about "other countries recognizing parts of the city to be part of the country", and as far as I know, no other definition was suggested.
"West Jerusalem" is a historic concept (somewhat like "West Berlin"). There currently does not exist an entity called "West Jerusalem", and therefore, it cannot be the capital of either Israel or any other country.
Once again, I don't see how the fact that "many people don't recognize Jerusalem (or part of it) to be a part of Israel" is relevant to the question whether it is capital or not. It's like saying that because at ancient times most people did not recognize the Earth to be nearly spherical, it actually wasn't.
London was never officially proclaimed capital of any of the countries you mention, so it clearly does not fit the definition. I don't think the comparison is relevant at all.
The issue is really not so complicated, and the fact that simple issues are often presented in a complicated way just to make everybody happy, is, IMO, one of the greatest weaknesses of Wikipedia in general.
That "many people say we shouldn't be saying something" proves absolutely nothing. I bet there are a lot of people which would say that about most of the evolution article, for example. Would you suggest to delete it? Wikipedia is here in order to provide readers with information, not in order to be "uncontroversial".
And finally: Suppose that, in addition to being the seat of Zimbabwean government and officially proclaimed capital, Vladivostok would also be populated mostly by Zimbabweans; that Zimbabwean police would be directing traffic there according to Zimbabwean traffic regulations, and arresting people breaking Zimbabwean law; and that those people would be brought before Zimbabwean courts and, if found guilty, would serve terms in Zimbabwean prisons; and that on Zimbabwean festivals Zimbabwean flags would be flown all over town by the city council (headed by a Zimbabwean mayor); and that one would not be required to carry a passport (or to pay customs) when traveling between Vladivostok and Harare; and furthermore, suppose that Vladivostok were't located thousands of miles away from the Zimbabwean mainland, but instead would be contiguous with it. And that the majority of its inhabitants, and actually, most of the world, wouldn't even call it by it's Russian name "Vladivostok", but instead call it by it's Zimbabwean name - let's say it was "Bulawayo". Would you still hesitate to say that Bulawayo (I mean, Vladivostok) is the capital of Zimbabwe? -- uriber 18:32, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Look, again, you're missing the point. The possession of "Jerusalem" as a single entity is disputed - no other country in the world recognizes there to be only a single "Jerusalem". I agree that it would make no sense to say "West Jerusalem" is the capital of Israel. But on the other hand, to say that "Jerusalem" is the capital of Israel implies that the whole city is part of Israel, which, again, implies things about the status of East Jerusalem that no other country in the world has recognized. Here, let me reverse it for you. Let's say in the 1967 war Israel had lost, and Jordan had taken control of all of the city of Jerusalem. West Jerusalem was annexed to Jordan, and King Hussein decided to move the government of Jordan to Jerusalem, and to proclaim Jerusalem the capital of Jordan. No other country in the world recognizes the annexation, and they all continue to have their embassies in Amman. Would you be willing to accept Wikipedia saying that Jerusalem is the capital of Jordan, with no qualification, at that point? john 20:24, 29 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The 1st paragraph discussion, continued

Can anyone tell me what the problem is with the first paragraph as it is now (22:11, 29 Feb 2004 . . Wik (rv))? -- Dissident 22:37, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It fails to clearly note the fact that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. -- uriber 22:53, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
That's not a neutral formulation as it implies that Jerusalem is a part of Israel. -- Dissident 23:14, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  1. It does not imply that.
  2. Jerusalem is a part of Israel.
-- uriber 16:15, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  1. Some definitions of capital call it the "the chief city or town in a country" (Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary) and in some languages it literally means that, the German "Hauptstadt" for example.
  2. That part is actually internationally disputed, so we can be quick about that. I've got the impression from lots of countries that they would be willing to forego the international status of Jerusalem and accept West-Jerusalem as part of Israel if it on its turn accepts East-Jerusalem as part of a future Palestinian state.
Dissident 18:01, 2 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  1. The part about "some languages" is irrelevant - this is the English Wikipedia. In addition to the Americam Heritage Dictionary definition I quoted above, Merriam-Webster's online dictionary says a capital (sense 3a) is "a city serving as a seat of government"[2].
  2. The whole discussion of what "lots of countries" would be able to "forego" under some hypothetical circumstances is completely irrelevant to this question. I live in Jerusalem, and my everyday life experience tells me it is in Israel. Israeli cars with Israeli license plates driven by Israeli drivers, Israeli police on the streets, Israeli flags on holidays, my contract with my Israeli employer is subject to Israeli law, no passport required when I travel to Tel-Aviv - should I continue? All in all, nothing to suggest that Jerusalem is not in Israel. -- uriber 20:18, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Oh, and I now also see that you (conveniently) ommitted the first part of Webster's definition that you quoted: "The seat of government" [3]. So Jerusalem fulfils this definition as well - even if you insist on not accepting that it is in Israel -- uriber 20:27, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Hold it right there. The fact that the meaning is ambiguous strengthens my case rather than weakens it. -- Dissident 20:54, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I fail to see how "the meaning is ambiguous" strengthens your case that "saying that Jerusalem is capital implies it is in Israel". If the meaning was unambiguously "the chief town in a country" (as you tried to present it) - that would strengthen your case (on this specific point, regardless of the other one, of course). If the definition is really ambiguous, it means we can say "Jerusalem is the capital" without fear of being wrong (it will at least fit some - or in this case, nearly all - definitions of the word).
And here's another definition (by WordNet): "a seat of government" [4]. -- uriber 21:46, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Would you be willing to accept the current formulation as a compromise (23:14, 3 Mar 2004 . . Dissident)? -- Dissident 23:15, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Sorry, but no. Jerusalem is not the capital only in the sense that "it is the location of its presidential residence and parliament" (and PM office, and supreme court, etc.), but also in the sense that "it is the official seat of government" (as stated in Israeli law), and in, short, in any reasonable sense by which Rome or Paris are capitals.
The word "currently" you added isn't really helpful either. Why doesn't the article on Rome say that it is "currently the capital city of Italy"? The only reason for introducing that word would be implying that Jerusalem's status is temporary in some way - which is either POV or pure speculation.
Also, I don't see why stating that Jerusalem is the capital should be pushed off to the third sentence. Compare, again, with Rome - another very ancient city, which became the capital of modern Italy only relatively recently in its history. Still - the first sentence in the article on Rome states that it is the capital. Everything else (location, history, etc.) is discussed later.
In short, I don't see why I should compromise on factual issues. Nevertheless, I did (very reluctantly) agree to three different compromises suggested here previously. They were all rejected (or, actually, just reverted) by Wik. -- uriber 16:54, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Uriber, in the first place, Wik has also agreed to several different formulae. In the second place, other than you and Humus Sapiens, most people here seem to agree that there needs to be some form of qualification on the statement that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. That no country in the world is willing to recognize that half of Jerusalem is even part of Israel makes the whole issue very problematic. In the third place, I notice you have not answered my earlier query regarding a theoretical Jordanian takeover of all of Jerusalem in 1967 followed by a move of Jordan's official capital there. Would you in that case be fighting as hard to say that "Jerusalem is the capital of Jordan" as you are now to say that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel"? I would agree, however, with your statement that Israel's present status should come in the first sentence. A further question. Would a phrase like "Designated capital" or some such, be acceptable to you? (And to Wik, for that matter) john 17:08, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

"Most people seem to agree" - if this was a vote, I would surely lose. However, in Wikipedia, unlike in the UN, things are not usually decided by a vote. Instead we are having a discussion, trying to bring convincing arguments for our positions. Until now, I have only seen two arguments against saying that Jerusalem is capital. One is Dissident's - "saying that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel implies that it is in Israel, which is wrong". I think I have pretty much refuted both sides of this argument (certainly the first one) in the discussion above.
The only other argument I'm seeing is your argument - "most people are saying we shouldn't say that, so we shouldn't say that". And the reason those people are giving? Simple - "most people say it". This is a cyclic argument, which is impossible to refute - but, on the other hand, it has no real merit - because the questions we're dealing with here are about Jerusalem, not about what most people say about Jerusalem (which is also important - but not important enough to appear in the first few sentences of the article).
Regarding your hypothetical question - I haven't answered it before because it's more of a personal question than a question about the topic at hand. However, if you insist - here's my answer: I would not be fighting as hard in that case to so say that "Jerusalem is the capital of Jordan" (I'm allowed to pick my fights). However, I also wouldn't fight against saying that.
The phrase "Designated capital" is not acceptable, because it implies that Jerusalem is not the actual capital. It would have been proper if Israel had officially designated Jerusalem as capital, while in practice the government had been operating from a different place. However this is not the case, as Jerusalem is both the officially designated capital, and the capital in practice.
I'm not in any kind of competition with Wik on who accepts more compromises. Actually, I'm a bit sorry I accepted those that I did (although I won't take it back). Keeping the article accurate should be more important than keeping some people (or even most people) happy. -- uriber 22:07, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I partly agree with Uriber, but only partly. I do not know of any principle in international law that denies a country the right to specify where its capital is. Therefore, the statement "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is a simple fact, and saying it does not indicate approval or disapproval. I don't believe it even implies that Jerusalem is in Israel. On the other hand, sovereignty is a matter which is subject to the most stringent principles of law, so in that case one cannot state "Jerusalem is in Israel" as a fact but only as a claim made by Israel. In this case it does not matter how much Jerusalem appears to be in Israel. Actually East Jerusalem is not in Israel according to the overwhelming legal consensus including the UN Security Council. I believe that a correct and neutral statement that could start the article would be "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, but Israeli sovereignty over East Jerusalem is accepted by few countries or international bodies.". In this regard, I believe that the matter of sovereignty in East Jerusalem, and not the matter of where the capital is, is the main reason most countries don't site their embassies in Jerusalem. --Zero 11:18, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I incorporated this suggestion (with minor modifications - I hope my parentheses aren't considered POV) into a new intro paragraph. Let's see what happens. -- uriber 12:02, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Two minutes! I think this is a record even for Wik. -- uriber 12:14, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

For the record, I'm willing to accept the statement that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, if its intended meaning is immediately elaborated in the rest of the same sentence. -- Dissident 01:26, 6 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The wording "Jerusalem (Hebrew: ירושלים Yerushalayim; Arabic: القدس, al-Quds) is an ancient city which lies on the border between Israel and the West Bank. It is one of the most disputed territories in the world. Israel declared Jerusalem its capital in 1950, and it is the location of its presidential residence and parliament, but this status is not internationally recognized and most countries maintain their embassies in Tel Aviv" is fine so far as I'm concerned, though it should at some point be noted that the western side of the city is territory occupied by Israel in the war of independence and not yet a politically resolved matter between the concerned parties. Jamesday 05:17, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

How sweet, we are moving backwards. Instead of trying to reconcile the text regarding East Jerusalem, by this new definition the "territory occupied by Israel in the war of independence and not yet a politically resolved matter between the concerned parties" would possibly include entire Israel from Naharia to Eilat. Why can't those pesky Jews just roll over and die? --Humus sapiens Talk 10:20, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)
You're spouting off abusive language again! This time no less you're suggesting somebody is a genocidal maniac! Desist or I WILL report this! -- Dissident 02:24, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
This time I'll ignore the ad-hom attack to prove that my goal is to improve the article, instead of bickering here. BTW, "spouting off" is duly noted. To the point: according to the twisted logic of the gentlemen above, it is somehow Israel's fault to have won the aggressive 1948 Arab-Israeli War waged by Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Lebanon and Transjordan with openly stated goal to annihilate the Jewish state. "Consider "Bigotry-finder rule 101": Take a situation, change the race, religion, sexual orientation, or other aspect of the players' identities, and see if the same results apply... Listen to the criticism of any other country: It is always a political party, a program, a policy, or a person that is criticized, never the legitimacy of a society. Except for Israel." [5] --Humus sapiens Talk 07:00, 12 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Well, I explained (several times) why it's not fine as far as I'm concerned, and unless you can explain why my arguments are invalid, irrelevant, POV, or whatever, instead of just "voting" for the current text, I'll simply ignore your POV. As for the last part of your comment - Humus put it nicely. -- uriber 15:49, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)


I think that Uriber has made his point very clear, though on some points of detail, I disagree. By saying that Jeruzalem was Israëls capital around 1272 B.C. is for me not a valid argument: they lost it to many conquerers like the Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Byzantines and then the many Muslims (First indeed the Arabs and then the Turks) and indeed the Muslims lost it in 1967, actually they lost it in 1948 from the emerging state of Israël! More than one million Arab soldiers, trained by Brittish and equiped by Europeans, where unable to beat approx 400 thousand Jewish fighters..... if they failed then, they'll continue to fail so cut the bullshit and start living together! Israël cannot destroy the Palestinians because that should be genocide, the Palestinians cannot beat Israël because they are too weak! Then they should live together! Jeruzalem can be both the capital for Israël and Palestine, if necessary with a wall to divide them (worked with Berlin too for 50 years!) --Irsjad 18:33, 13 Mar 2004 (UTC)

March 16 edit war

Before making changes to the 1st paragraph, please explain what is factually wrong with the language below. --Humus sapiens Talk 19:19, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Jerusalem (Hebrew: ירושלים Yerushalayim; Arabic: القدس, al-Quds) is the capital city of Israel (although Israeli sovereignty over East Jerusalem is accepted by few countries or international bodies). It is one of the most ancient cities in the world, and has a long history of wars and controversy.

Just because something is factually correct doesn't mean it is the best way to present it in an encyclopedia. Explain what is factually wrong with this language: Anthony DiPierro 19:26, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Jerusalem (Hebrew: ירושלים Yerushalayim; Arabic: القدس, al-Quds) is an ancient city which lies on the border between Israel and the West Bank. It is one of the most disputed territories in the world. Israel declared Jerusalem its capital in 1950.

(I hope Humus won't mind if I answer this:) The text you are proposing fails to mention a central fact about Jerusalem: that it is the capital of Israel. Factual accuracy is as much as in what you don't say is it is in what you say. Would you accept an article about Rome which does not say "Rome is the capital of Italy" as factually correct? -- uriber 19:32, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
It clearly says that "Israel declared Jerusalem its capital in 1950." What other requirement is there to be a capital that I'm missing? Anthony DiPierro 19:35, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
That Israel has since then (1950) never declared another city as capital, or revoked the 1950 declaration; that Jerusalem is the seat of Israeli parliament; that it is the location of the Prime Minister's office and nearly all other ministry headquarters; that it is the seat of Israeli Supreme Court; that it is the seat of Israel's national bank, etc., etc. All this information can easily be implied by the simple, factually correct, statement that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel". Refraining to do so and insisting on lenghty formulations just to avoid doing so is an introduction of POV. -- uriber 19:42, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
"Israel declared Jerusalem its capital in 1950" is hardly a lengthy formulation. I'm saying this as someone who personally accepts the Israeli government's claim (I think a nation gets to decide what its own capital is) -- to be NPOV, we have to be clear in stating the Israeli government's position (Anthony is doing that) and in stating the reactions of foreign governments. That is a neutral point of view. Saying "Jerusalem is Israel's capital" isn't neutral....you and I can believe it is correct, but it's not neutral. Jwrosenzweig 19:48, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
It's not lenghty, but on its own it is very lacking. To make it complete, you will have to also state everything I wrote in the above paragraph - which would make it lenghty. Also, the first sentence in an article should describe the current status of the city, not just mention some fact related to its history (the 1950 declaration in this case). Why is saying "Jerusalem is Israel's capital" not neutral? -- uriber 20:00, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
There's no need to explain every little detail in the first paragraph. "Israel declared Jerusalem its capital in 1950" is sufficient. Anthony DiPierro 18:36, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

But those (other than the first) are not requirements of a capital. Perhaps they would be inferred, perhaps not. I wouldn't personally infer those things without reading more. In fact, I wouldn't even infer that Israel even had any of those things without reading more. Anthony DiPierro 19:47, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

They are not requirements, but they are things to be expected, as they constitute the essence of being a "seat of government", i.e., a capital. On the other hand, the text you are supporting implies that Israel's declarations was just that - a ceremonial declaration, and that Jerusalem is not the capital in practice. Now that I've answered some of your questions, would you mind telling me why you oppose the statement that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel"? -- uriber 19:52, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
It's POV. It's not a statement that every Wikipedian would agree with. Anthony DiPierro 19:56, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I don't believe that the definition of NPOV is something that "every Wikipedian would agree with". In any event, it's not a matter of agreement. It's a matter of fact. Jerusalem matches the definition of "capital". If someone disagrees, he can read the dictionary definition, and then research the facts, and he will notice (unless his logic is clouded by his POV) that the facts match the definition.
I must leave now. I'll be happy to continue the discussion tomorrow. -- uriber 20:12, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Jerusalem matches your definition of "capital". Must all Wikipedians agree? No, but that's the goal. A fact is "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." There is a serious dispute as to the capital of Israel, so presenting it this way violates NPOV.
For determining whether something is fact or opinion in this sense, it does not matter what the actual truth of the matter is; there can at least in theory be "false facts" (things that everybody agrees upon, but which are, in fact, false), and there are very often "true opinions," though necessarily, it seems, there are more false ones. - Wikipedia:NPOV
Anthony DiPierro 20:21, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Jerusalem does not match my definition of "capital". It matches the definition of "capital" from at least four respectable English dictionaries (see above). Do you know of a definition of "capital" (from a well-established authority) that Jerusalem does not match? Also - you say ther is a dispute. However, I didn't see anyone in this discussion saying that "Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel" (not even you). Maybe there's no real dispute about this fact? -- uriber 17:49, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Try doing a little googling. I think you'll see that there is a lot of dispute of whether or not Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. As for the definition, whether it's yours or that of a "respectable" dictionary, it's still irrelevant. Anthony DiPierro 18:30, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I won't do your research for you. You say it's disputed - prove it. And anyway, it's not even a matter of opinion, it's a fact. "The definition [...] is irrelevant"? Huh? So now we'll just use words however we like, regardless of what they mean? And why did you bother to emphasize the word your when you said "your definition", if you think definitions don't matter at all? Just to waste my time in explaining to you that it's not my definition? -- uriber 18:51, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
It's the definition you choose to use, therefore it's your definition. As for proving that it is disputed, I don't have to do that. It's absolutely obvious to anyone who has done the most basic of research into this issue. Anthony DiPierro 19:22, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  1. Thanks for recognizing the factual accuracy of the text you are trying to remove.
    • I did no such thing. Actually, whether or not Jerusalem is the capital of Israel isn't even a fact, it's an opinion, more specifically, it's semantics. Anthony DiPierro 18:41, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
"semantics [...] is traditionally defined as the study of meaning" (Wikipedia). When there is a dispute about the meaning of a word (i.e., about semantics), the proper way to resolve it is by consulting an authority on meanings of words - that is, dictionary (or several dictionaries). This is exactly what I did in this case - and at least as far as semantics go, the case is closed. -- uriber 19:23, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
When there is a dispute about the meaning of a word, the proper way to resolve it is to rephrase the sentence in a way such that there is no dispute. There is no "authority on meanings of words." Dictionaries try their best to reflect common usage, but they are by no means vested with any authority to do so.
  1. The Anthony's text suggests that it is somehow illegal for Israel to have its capital in Jerusalem. It doesn't mention that the dispute is only about East Jerusalem. To me, there is not much difference between this position and of those who delegitimize Israel right to Tel Aviv. See the discussion above.
    • Well, it's not "my" text. As for your point, I'll address it below. Anthony DiPierro 18:41, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  2. "the border between Israel and the West Bank" is being disputed and currently is the 1949 armistice line. It is not a border, nor was it meant to be. I don't think it is worth being mentioned in the 1st phrase, unless (see #2).
    • Good point, this should be fixed. Anthony DiPierro 18:41, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  3. I am not going to waste my time on silly edit wars. Unfortunately for WP, this is typical fate of almost every article related to Jews and Israel. Check for yourself. --Humus sapiens Talk 21:15, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

UK, Shm-UK

Jerusulem is not recognised by the UK government as the capital - see [6]. Secretlondon 18:54, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

The page you linked does not even mention the word "capital" - so it is irrelevant. Anyway I never claimed that Jerusulem is recognised by the UK government as the capital. All I said is that Jerusalem is the capital, which is still true regardless of what the UK government recognizes. -- uriber 19:00, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
You never claimed that Jerusulem is recognized by the UK government as the capital, however, you also claimed there was "no real dispute about this fact [the "fact" that Jerusulem is the capital]." Anthony DiPierro 19:04, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
There is a big difference between not "officially recognizing" Jerusalem as capital (which is a matter of politics), and between saying that "Jerusalem is not the capital" (which is a matter of fact). Of course there's a political dispute about Jerusalem. I just said I don't think there is dispute about the facts. -- uriber 19:11, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I'd say it's just the opposite. Whether or not Jerusalem is officially recognized as the capital is a fact (at least, it can be, barring strange circumstances such as the United States where Congress passed a bill saying that Jerusalem is the capital but the President declared the bill Unconstitutional). Whether or not it is the capital is an opinion. Anthony DiPierro 19:19, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The UK is irrelevant here. If Israel does not recognize London as the UK capital, would it cease to be one? Prove why such dependency is important. BTW, the UK was one of only two countries (another was Pakistan) which _recognized_ Jordan's illegal annexation of the West Bank and E-Jlem in 1949 until it was liberated in 1967. Did it make it any more legal? We don't want to talk about Britain's long story of colluding with the Arabs, mismanaging the Mandate and shutting down Jewish immigration in the 30s and 40s, do we? --Humus sapiens Talk 19:30, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
If Israel does not recognize London as the UK capital, then it would cease to be NPOV to call it one. Anthony DiPierro 19:35, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
This is your POV. I respectfully disagree and think it is irrelevant. None of dictionaries mention the "recognition" requirement. Being asked repeatedly, you were unable to prove it is important. At this point, we are arguing over POV, not facts. Should we strive for NPOV, though? --Humus sapiens Talk 19:52, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I, on the other hand, think the dictionaries are irrelevant. If the dictionaries call London the capital of the UK, but Israel disagrees, then it is POV to call London the UK capital, because that is in dispute. Recognition is exactly what NPOV is all about. If something is not universally recognized as being true, then it is POV to assert that it is without attribution, regardless of what some dictionary may say. Anthony DiPierro 20:16, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
According to what you say, the articles on London, Rome, Paris, etc., should all be fixed, because they are now claiming as a fact something that is merely a POV (that these cities are capitals) - whereas none of these articles even mention the facts - by which countries these capitals are "recognized". I think you have a lot of work to do in order to make these articles (and about 200 others) NPOV. Good luck. -- uriber 19:32, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Read Wikipedia:NPOV again. I even quoted the relevant paragraph. By "fact," on the one hand, we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." There is no serious dispute to the capital status of London, Rome, or Paris. Anthony DiPierro 19:38, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
And BTW, which president declaired that bill Unconstitutional? I'm curious. Anyway, as far as I know it's not in the president's authority to declare bills "unconstitutional". -- uriber 19:32, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The President was Bush. [7] And any President can declare anything whatever he wants. Anthony DiPierro 19:38, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Oh - you are confusing your acts here. Bush's statement (which does not mention the word "unconstitutional", BTW) is regarding several clauses in the 2003 Foreign Relations Authorization Act. The act in which congress recognized Jerusalem as capital of Israel was the Jerusalem Embassy Act of 1995, of which no president ever said it was unconstitutional. -- uriber 19:57, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
He may not use the word "unconsitutional", but he says that the act "impermissibly interferes with the President's constitutional authority to conduct the Nation's foreign affairs." As for the content of the act itself, it "obligates the US to identify Jerusalem as the capital of Israel in federally funded documents." [8]


Once again, the very fact that reasonable people are disputing this means that it is not NPOV to say "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel." Clearly, the situation is absolutely not analogous to the situation of Rome or Paris, where there is no basis to say that those cities are not the capital. Jerusalem, on the other hand, is not recognized as a part of the State of Israel by many countries. As I've said before, the only analogous example I can think of is East Berlin as the capital of the German Democratic Republic. I think that it would be similarly problematic to say "East Berlin was the capital of the German Democratic Republic," since a) the East Germans themselves called "Berlin" their capital; and b) Berlin was officially under four power control, and thus not a part of either German state (at least until the 70s...) What is needed here is to have some statement which says that Israel has its capital in Jerusalem without saying "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel." This wouldn't be hard to do, I think, except that there's a lot of people here saying "We won't except anything except saying 'Jerusalem is the capital of Israel.'" That makes this essentially intractable. john 20:11, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Previously I suggested we write "Jerusalem is the official capital of Israel". I repeat that suggestion. The word "official" introduces some intentional ambiguity, in the time-honored fashion of diplomatic documents. Uriber didn't like this idea too much, but Wik was the one who reverted it. This relative symmetry of dislike suggests that it is close to the mark. --Zero 22:44, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)
If the word "official" is designed to confuse, it worked for me. Still, this is better than "Israel declared", as if they don't deserve it. In addition, we have agreed upon the NPOV disclaimer about Israel's sovereignty over East Jerusalem is recognized by few countries or international bodies. Other than accepting the Israel's right to exist, what's wrong with this phrase? --Humus sapiens Talk 05:03, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Maybe it's just a dialect thing, but "official" seems even worse. It implies that not only is Israel the capital, but this is true by international law, or some other "official" acceptance. Not sounding like they deserve it is the intent, because whether they deserve it is POV. "Declared capital" is acceptable. Anthony DiPierro 11:21, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Like I said on Zero0000's Talk page, my vote goes to "de facto". -- Dissident 20:51, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
How about "official and de facto"? That would cover both aspects, and would be fine with me (much better than either of the adjectives by itself). -- uriber 21:15, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Well if we're going to start combining adjectives, then I'll add Anthony's one instead: "declared and de facto". -- Dissident 21:25, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Official is POV. Adding other words doesn't resolve that. At least, unless those words modify official (declared to be official, for instance, which is obviously not the right words to use). Anthony DiPierro 22:20, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The argument here against "official" is wrong. There is no such concept as "official capital" in international law as far as I know, and the views of other countries have no legal import outside those countries. So the only valid meaning of the phrase is "capital according to Israel's official view". I support Uriber's suggestion "official and de facto". --Zero 23:10, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)


Wikipedia:NPOV

I'm going to repeat a quote from Wikipedia:NPOV, because people seem to be missing it (and not reading it for themselves).

We sometimes give an alternative formulation of the nonbias policy: assert facts, including facts about opinions--but don't assert opinions themselves. By "fact," on the one hand, we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." In this sense, that a survey produced a certain published result is a fact. That Mars is a planet is a fact. That Socrates was a philosopher is a fact. No one seriously disputes any of these things. So we can feel free to assert as many of them as we can. By "opinion," on the other hand, we mean "a piece of information about which there is some dispute." There's bound to be meta:borderline cases where we're not sure if we should take a particular dispute seriously; but there are many propositions that very clearly express opinions. That God exists is an opinion. That the Beatles were the greatest band is an opinion. That the United States was wrong to drop the atomic bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki is an opinion.
For determining whether something is fact or opinion in this sense, it does not matter what the actual truth of the matter is; there can at least in theory be "false facts" (things that everybody agrees upon, but which are, in fact, false), and there are very often "true opinions," though necessarily, it seems, there are more false ones.

I'm not even going to bold the part that applies ("it does not matter what the actual truth of the matter is"). Read this whole thing, or better yet, read Wikipedia:NPOV. Anthony DiPierro 20:28, 17 Mar 2004 (UTC)

What do other sources say?

  • Je·ru·sa·lem ( P ) Pronunciation Key (j-rs-lm, -z-) The capital of Israel... (Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition)
  • Jerusalem \Je*ru"sa*lem\, n. [Gr. ?, fr. Heb. Y?r?sh[=a]laim.] The chief city of Palestine, intimately associated with the glory of the Jewish nation... (Source: Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary, © 1996, 1998 MICRA, Inc.)
  • Jerusalem n : capital and largest city of the modern state of Israel... (Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University)
  • Main Entry: Je·ru·sa·lem Pronunciation: j&-'rü-s(&-)l&m, -'rü-z(&-)l&m Variant(s): or ancient Hi·ero·sol·y·ma /"hI-(&-)rO-'sä-l&-m&/ Usage: geographical name; city central Palestine NW of Dead Sea; divided 1948-67 between Jordan (old city) & Israel (new city) capital of Israel since 1950 & formerly capital of ancient kingdoms of Israel & Judah; old city under Israeli control since 1967 population 544,200 (Source: Merriam-Webster online)
  • Jerusalem Related: Israel Geography (jeroo´selem, -zelem) , Heb. Yerushalayim, Arab. Al Quds, city (1994 pop. 578,800), capital of Israel.... (Source: http://www.encyclopedia.com/html/J/Jerusale.asp, http://www.infoplease.com, The Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition. 2001. - The same contents)

Pls. see www.dictionary.com for refs. --Humus sapiens | Talk 22:58, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)


The current first paragraph seems to be neutral, factual and correct. So I would stick with it. Current is of course: Jerusalem (Hebrew: ירושלים Yerushalayim; Arabic: القدس, al-Quds) is the capital city of Israel (although Israeli sovereignty over East Jerusalem is accepted by few countries or international bodies). It is one of the most ancient cities in the world, and has a long history of wars and controversy. -Marduk

Reading this, I'm at a bit of a loss why this is even up for debate. Israel says its capital is Jerusalem. Its legislative functions are there. Its laws say that its capital of Jerusalem. Officially and functionally, it is the capital of Israel. Heck, the dictionary says that its the capital of Israel. Isn't this enough to define the place as the capital? And for those on the other side - if Jerusalem isn't the capital of Israel, what is, and what evidence is there to support that? Ambivalenthysteria 10:56, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is saying that Jerusalem isn't the capital of Israel. Just that its status as capital is problematic enough that the capital information should not be stated as though it is an uncontroversial fact. Certainly one might argue that West Jerusalem, and not Jerusalem, is the capital of Israel. john 17:35, 21 Mar 2004 (UTC)

From PenguiN42

Sorry for jumping in to the conversation, but has discussion about this reached a stalemate? No one has posted a major contribution to the discussion in a few days.... Unless it's going on somewhere else and I'm missing it. Anyway, I had some questions: a previous version was posted by Uriber that was worded "Jerusalem (Hebrew: #1497;רושלים Yerushalayim; Arabic: القدس, al-Quds) is an ancient city of the Middle East, Israel's official capital since 1949. Jerusalem's status as capital is not internationally recognized, and most countries maintain their embassies in Tel Aviv." [9] -- it was reverted by Wik, who objected to calling the city "Israel's official capital." My first question is for Wik: why isn't saying "status as capital is not internationally recognized" an acceptable qualification? Secondly, for Uriber, why is it an acceptable qualification, while stating "Israel declared Jerusalem its capital in 1950" [10] is not? PenguiN42 22:05, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I stopped commenting here a few days ago because I felt I have said everything I have to say on the subject, and repeating myself over and over is a waste of my time an Wikipedia's disk space. However, since you're new to the discussion, I'll try to answer your questions. As to why saying "Israel declared Jerusalem its capital in 1950" is not acceptable, see my reply to Anthony DiPierro dated 19:42, 16 Mar 2004. -- uriber 22:48, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I appreciate your feeling of frustration, and that you've "said everything you have to say." However, if no one reaches a consensus about this issue (or at least an agreement not to revert a certain change), then the page will never stabilize and will be locked forever... And I think a locked page about such an important issue is much worse for wikipedia in the long run than some disk space being used up by talking :) PenguiN42 02:24, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I seriously doubt the page

Secondly, I feel that the fact that there *is* so much dispute here over whether to explicitly state that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" proves that it's a POV statement -- that is, a statement whose truth is under serious dispute. Facts that are not in dispute are the fact that Israel declared Jerusalem to be its capital, and the fact that much of its government is run out of Jerusalem. These are the facts of the matter -- "jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is a conclusion drawn from those facts. And it's obvious that there's some dispute over whether that conclusion is 100% unquestionable. Whether Jerusalem actuallyis the capital of Israel or not is irrelevant, as clearly stated in Wikipedia's NPOV policy. Therefore, I would argue for placing the undisputed facts listed above in the article, instead of the disputed conclusion. Some have argued that saying "Israel declared Jerusalem its capital" implies that Israel's declaration isn't legitimate -- I argue that it says nothing either way about the declaration, but leaves it up to the reader to decide. However, saying "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" pretty clearly states that Israel's declaration is legitimate (therefore being less NPOV than possibly implying that it might not be, even though the previous statement doesn't imply this) -- and, more importantly, it implies to most people that Israel has sovereignty over all of Jerusalem -- a point which is clearly in dispute. PenguiN42 22:20, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I said this several times before, but I'll try to say this even more clearly. The fact that there is a dispute over whether "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is NPOV or not does not prove that it is not NPOV. (The idea that one can win an argument simply by stating his position is quite absurd). If there were a dispute over whether Jerusalem is the capital or not - that might have made the statement non-NPOV. However, nobody seriously claimed, during this entire discussion, that "Jerusalem is not the capital". So there's no evidence that saying "Jerusalem is the capital" is not NPOV. Just a few people claiming it to be non-NPOV, with no convincing arguments to back them up.
It is not obvious that there's some dispute over whether Jerusalem is capital is 100% unquestionable. And saying that it's obvious does not prove it is obvious. It doesn't even constitute an argument.
Saying "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" does not state that Israel's declaration is legitimate. How can a factual comment bare a "legal" meaning? Does saying "Bill is dead" state that "Joe's killing of Bill was legitimate"?
About sovereignty - you are claiming that most people understand the word "capital" very differently than the way it is defined in four different dictionaries. This is a very strong claim - do you have any data to back it up? -- uriber 22:48, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Hmm... I'm not sure if this made it more clear for me. First I'd like to respond to "It is not obvious that there's some dispute over whether Jerusalem is capital is 100% unquestionable. And saying that it's obvious does not prove it is obvious. It doesn't even constitute an argument." -- I think you misunderstand me, because what i meant was that everything that's being argued in here is "dispute over whether 'Jerusalem is capital' is 100% unquestionable" -- that is, we're arguing over whether 'Jerusalem is capital' is all fact (ie, 100% unquestionable), or whether it contains or implies POV. The fact that this argument exists makes it obvious that there's a dispute. Please read this carefully, as the wording is tricky, and I don't want to have to explain myself several times. As for the other points, I'll try to split up the different implications you seem to be making (here and elsewhere), paraphrased as to my understanding, and respond to each in turn:
Agreed. There is some kind of dispute going on here. However, after so many kilobytes of arguments, I don't see how noting this obvious fact contributes to the discussion in any way. -- uriber 09:54, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
  1. That there's a dispute over whether or not the statement is NPOV does not mean that there's a dispute over the truth of the statement itself -- yeah, I see now that I made a logical error in stating this. You're right on this count. Consider my assertions to this effect retracted.
  2. Nobody seriously claimed, during this discussion, that Jerusalem is not the capital, therefore there is no serious dispute over whether Jerusalem is the capital. -- Just because no one in this discussion has seriously claimed that jerusalem is not the capital doesn't mean there's no serious dispute somewhere in the world. So the question then becomes, is there serious dispute somewhere in the world? Two points have been raised to support that there is: First, some countries don't "officially recognize" Jerusalem as the capital; and Second, not all of Jerusalem is indisputably recognized as part of Israel, and some claim that this means it can't be Israel's indisputable capital. I'll address these points further below.
  3. The fact that Israel calls Jerusalem its capital, and treats the city like a capital, means it's the capital. Other countries' recognition of Israel as the capital aren't relevant to this fact -- I think we need to clear up some ambiguities, here. Because it seems to me that a country refusing to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel is tantamount to disputing the fact that Jerusalem is the captial of Israel. How can this be interpreted any other way? Likewise, how can Israel's declaration that Jerusalem is the capital be "Illegitimate" if Jerusalem is Israel's capital? You imply that "legitimacy" is a legal definition, and has no bearing on the facts. I think this is not a very clear concept, and needs some more elaboration. Remember, POV is not concerned with what the actual truth is, but rather whether that fact is in dispute. Why don't legal definitions count towards disputes of a fact? Why do only dictionary definitions count? Why don't peoples own interpretations of words (which may carry connotations that the dictionary doesn't specify) count? Is it possible for someone to both believe that Jerusalem is not the legitimate capital of Israel and believe that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel? It seems like a contradiction to me. I guess the problem is -- what exactly does "legitimate" mean? I don't think it's only a legal definition, and I bet your four dictionaries would agree with me.
  4. Whether or not Israel owns/controls/has sovereignty over Jerusalem isn't relevant to the fact -- you back this up by showing that dictionary definitions don't require that the captial has to be part of the country in order for it to be the capital. I would argue, however, that dictionaries don't always include every necessary defining element of a word. Also, peoples usage and understanding of a word don't always match what the dictionary says. Regardless, you're right that the burden of proof is on me to show that "most people understand the word "capital" very differently than the way it is defined in four different dictionaries." And I'm really not sure how I would be able to "prove" this as it is an inductive claim -- "most people." However, I think an easier claim (though more subjective) would be a "significant number of people." And I think polling is a good way to gather evidence for such a claim. So how about it? Would anyone care to vote for whether the captial of a country has to be completely a part of that country?
  • I'll start off by voting for myself, that yes, the capital as to be completely a part of the country. PenguiN42
As a final point, I contend that saying that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" implies, to, say, a person who knows nothing about Jerusalem, that the whole of Jerusalem is a part of Israel and that Israel has sovereignty over it. However, saying that "Israel declared Jerusalem to be its capital," to a person who knows nothing about Jerusalem, does *not* imply that the declaration wasn't valid. This is related to the above point about people's understanding of the word "capital," but it's not quite the same thing. This is more about people's interpretation of the context surrounding the word.
Anyway, that's it for now... I hope! PenguiN42 04:00, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)


  1. So that's settled.
  2. You are presenting an argument which I never argued, and then you argue with it. What I did say is that "'there's no evidence' that saying 'Jerusalem is the capital' is not NPOV". As for the "evidence" you are producing, see below.
  3. I disagree that "a country refusing to recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel is tantamount to disputing the fact that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel". The matter of a country "recognizing" another country's capital is not well defined, and has no clear meaning. Generally, official statements made by countries do not necessarily reflect actual people's POVs about facts. Rather, they reflect what the officials making them consider to be the best thing to say in order to serve the political interests of the entity they are representing. That the UK says it does "not recognize Jerusalem as capital" is certainly not the same as saying that someone in the UK government actually believes that "Jerusalem is not the capital". It merely means that the UK government believes that "not recognizing Jerusalem as capital" serves best the diplomatic and political interests of the UK. In any event, I have previously supported a phrasing which makes it absolutely clear that Jerusalem's status is not politically recognized by other countries[11]. This was reverted by Wik, which refuses to discuss.
See, I would have agreed to the wording in that URL. I'm really not sure why Wik didn't. His assertion that "there is nothing "balanced" about saying it is the official capital when this is disputed by almost the entire rest of the world" doesn't even make sense since it clearly states in the next statement that it *is* disputed my much of the rest of the world. This makes it balanced in my opinion. And, to me, "official capital" means it's Israel's official capital, nothing more. Anyone know if Wik is still banned? If he is, I lean towards this wording, as long as no one else disagrees with it. PenguiN42 12:48, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Anthony, above, has expresses his disagreement to the word "official". I'm not happy with it either (exactly because of what you say - it implies that it is the "official capital and nothing more" - which is wrong: Jerusalem is also the de facto capital). I suggested "official and de facto", which Anthony rejected. The best thing as far as I'm concerned would be to drop the word altogether - but then you will probably disagree. Anyway, the reason I brought up this phrasing in this stage of the discussion is because of the following sentence - regarding international recognition. -- uriber 13:14, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I completely agree that "legitimate", in this context, is not a very clear concept, and therefore I suggest that the issue of legitimacy (which is a matter of POV) should not be handled in the introduction paragraph - which should be devoted to laying down the basic facts. So I propose that we keep the question of "legitimacy" out of this discussion as well. BTW, I did not check all of my four dictionaries, but the first one I did (AHD) says that "legitimate" means "Being in compliance with the law; lawful" (there are other definitions as well, of course, but that is the primary one).
Wikipedia is an English-language encyclopedia intended for the general English-speaking public - not a legal document, intended for lawyers - which is why definitions from English dictionaries count, whereas legal definitions do not.
Is it possible for someone to both believe that Jerusalem is not the legitimate capital of Israel and believe that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel?. Yes, it is - for the same reason that it possible for someone to both believe that Bill was not legitimately killed, and yet believe that Bill is dead.
As I said above - I'm not sure what was your point in bringing the whole issue of "legitimacy" into the discussion. It seems to be counter-productive to introduce yet another not-clearly-defined, probably disputed, element into an already long and complicated discussion.
  • Do you also think it is a problem to say that "Rome is the capital of Italy"? As far as I know, part of Rome is not under Italian sovereignty - and that is not even disputed. Anyway, just in case some people might (correctly or wrongly) assume that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" implies that there is no dispute about any part of Jerusalem being under Israeli sovereignty, I previously actively supported the phrasing Jerusalem is the capital city of Israel (although Israeli sovereignty over east Jerusalem is accepted by few countries or international bodies) [12]. This should fully address your concerns of a possible implications of the word "capital" as understood by some people. It also supplies context to the statement about Jerusalem being capital. However, this was reverted by both Wik and Anthony.
-- uriber 09:54, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
That the UK says it does "not recognize Jerusalem as capital" is certainly not the same as saying that someone in the UK government actually believes that "Jerusalem is not the capital". It merely means that the UK government believes that "not recognizing Jerusalem as capital" serves best the diplomatic and political interests of the UK.
This is true, however, I believe that the UK says it does "not recognize Jerusalem as capital" does imply that someone must believe that "Jerusalem is not the capital". Otherwise, why would it serve best the diplomatic and political interests of the UK? anthony 11:11, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
There are basically two explanations. One is regarding the past of the city. Specifically, some people believe that Jerusalem became the capital of Israel as a result of "illegitimate", "illegal", "unjust", or otherwise condemnable actions. Those who hold these beliefs probably feel that "officially recognizing" Jerusalem as capital somehow rewards those actions. It is not necessarily that the UK government itself (as an example) actually holds such beliefs - but more likely, the UK has an interest in maintaining good relations with forces which do hold them.
The other explanation has to do with the future of the city - which, unlike its present status, really is disputed. There are many who, for various reasons, wish to change the status of Jerusalem - by re-dividing it, internationalizing it, or taking it out of Israeli control in some other way. This goal would be more difficult to achieve if Jerusalem is internationally recognized as Israel's capital. Once again, changing the status of Jerusalem in this manner might not be a direct interest of the UK, but maintaining good relations with those supporting such change certainly is. Making official statements about the present status of the city has implications on its future, and therefore, such statements are made, regardless of the city's true current status.
Neither explanation requires the assumption that anybody actually disputes the city's present status as capital. -- uriber 13:01, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
how about something like "Jerusalem is currently Israel's capital, although not all countries recognize its status as such." .. or something? PenguiN42 13:34, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I don't see why the word "currently" is necessary. By default, facts stated in the present tense in Wikipedia describe the current situation. Adding the word "currently" implies (or at least might be understood as implying) that Jerusalem's status is somehow temporary - which is an introduction of POV. Other than that - it's fine. -- uriber 13:46, 26 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I think "not all" is a little weasely: I would prefer "Jerusalem is Israel's capital, but only the United States formally recognises it as such". Assuming that that is correct, of course. Martin 20:13, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)
It is very unusual for any country to formally recognise a city as another country's capital. The usual thing is to recognise the country itself then to accept by default whatever city that other country says its capital is. So the "not all" formulation is less misleading than the "only the US" formulation. --Zero 23:58, 27 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Agree with Zero. Also, "only the US" is not factually correct. Four other countries base their embassis in Jerusalem or its suburbs - which I think implies recognizing Jerusalem as capital. Other countries, not basing their embassy in Jerusalem, do not necessarily not recognize Jerusalem - as the US example shows. According to what Zero says, by default we should assume that any country recognizing Israel also recognizes whatever capital Israel has chosen (that is, Jerusalem) unless it specifically declared otherwise (which I'm not sure how many countries did). -- uriber 19:33, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

More sources

This is from the CIA World Factbook:

Jerusalem; note - Israel proclaimed Jerusalem as its capital in 1950, but the US, like nearly all other countries, maintains its Embassy in Tel Aviv

Is that source comprehensive enough for you people? ugen64 23:44, Mar 25, 2004 (UTC)

Nonetheless, dictionary.com does define capital city differently:

A town or city that is the official seat of government in a political entity, such as a state or nation

So obviously, a country can decide where its own capital city is, and therefore it's NPOV that Jerusalem is Israel's capital (because it's a fact). ugen64 23:47, Mar 25, 2004 (UTC)

There are legitimate disputes to the statement. Therefore it's not NPOV (because it's not a wikipedia:fact). anthony 23:55, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Suggestions from Martin

Folks here may be interested in UN Security Council Resolution 478 - it sounds like you're all experts on the subject. Martin 00:25, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Would "working capital" be a useful phrase? Martin 17:02, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Would it be useful for Paris or London? I guess not. And not useful here either, from the same reasons. -- uriber 19:38, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Is Jerusalem Paris or London? I guess not.
Jerusalem is not Paris or London, but it is is the capital of Israel in the same sense that London is the capital of the UK, aad Paris is that of France - hence the analogy. -- uriber 18:03, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Uriber, if you were to reject anything that isn't a mirror image of Paris, then we're not going to get a solution that makes you and everyone else happy. However, I've already seen you accept compromises ("see note below", "official", etc) in the talk page archives, so I know that you are willing to give a little to get a little.
I'm not interested is a solution that makes me and everyone else happy. I'm imterested in a solution which is factually correct and NPOV - no matter how many people would be unhappy about it. I'm willing to give a little when it comes to phrasing - as long as the phrasing still accurately conveys the facts. I originally agreed to "official" because I saw it as just an extra word, having no effect on the overall meaning (since all capitals are "official"). I later realized that it could be understood as somehow limiting the sense in which Jerusalem is capital (as if this was only a formal, official, status - with no practical consequnces) - so I withdrew my acceptance of "official capital", and replaced it by accepting "official and de-facto capital", which to me means more or less the same thing as "capital" (but is awkwardly phrased). -- uriber 18:03, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Ahh, I hadn't spotted your acceptance of "official and de facto capital". This sounds acceptable to me, though I would prefer to be specific about the manner in which it is official (IE, declared under Israeli law). Martin 23:07, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
So, what makes "working capital" so much worse than "official capital"? If you tell us why you consider one OK, and the other not OK, then it's going to be easier to resolve the issue. Martin 22:42, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I'm not sure what "working capital" means. To me it sounds somewhat like "de-facto capital", which leaves out an important aspect of Jerusalem's status - that is, its official status as capital in Israeli law. Also "working" seems to hint something temporary. If you can point out to me which of the definitions of "working" (e.g., from here) you are referring to, I might be able to re-consider and give you a more specific answer. -- uriber 18:03, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Ok, I see what you're saying about it being ambiguous. By "working capital", I personally meant that Jerusalem works as Israel's capital, but I can see why others might interpret it differently.
How about "de facto capital and capital under Israeli law"? We can leave out the stuff about it not being the capital in the eyes of the United Nations till later in the article. Martin 23:03, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Getting specific

I don't see what these links (posted here by Anthony) add to the discussion, except for proving the fact that some people don't like seeing the phrase "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" published anywhere - a fact which is already pretty obvious given that this discussion is even taking place. -- uriber 19:41, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)
People suggested that there was no serious dispute to the sentence "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel." While I agree it's obvious that there is a dispute, some people said that merely saying that it was obvious was not enough. anthony (this comment is a work in progress and may change without prior notice) 23:22, 28 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I don't know what a "dispute to a sentence" means. It's obvious that there is a dispute over whether encyclopedias in general, and Wikipedia in particular, should say that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. It is not obvious that there is a dispute over whether Jerusaelm is the capital of Israel or not, and the links you provided do not contain any evidence that there is such dispute. If you are having difficulties understanding the difference between these two questions, I warmly recommend that you read Gödel, Escher, Bach - an excellent book which explains, among other things, what levels of reference are, and what happens when you mix them. -- uriber 21:08, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I think uriber is right that there is a difference between saying "Capital: None", and simply not having a "Capital" line. The former would be more convincing (to me) than the latter. Martin 22:42, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

You have to look at the change in context. At one point the capital was listed as Tel Aviv. anthony (this comment is a work in progress and may change without prior notice) 23:29, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)

To be honest, given the extremely detailed account of Jerusalem's present status in the article, the current formulation doesn't really seem worth fighting over. john 05:57, 31 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Dawn of the dead

I thought this issue was already settled. Dead. Buried. Why has it risen to haunt us again? I had even used it as an example in the NPOV tutorial Eloquence asked me to write. *sigh*

Why can't we just say this:

  • Israel proclaimed Jerusalem as its capital; and
  • No other country except X, Y and Z accept (or recognize?) this designation.

--Uncle Ed 22:25, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)


I have explained many, many times in the discussion above (now partially archived) why we can't (just) say that. Have you read the entire discussion? If you have, and still do not see why what you propose is unacceptable, I'll try to explain (again). -- uriber 22:36, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)
To summarise for Ed: merely describing Jerusalem as the "proclaimed capital" misses the fact that it also acts as a capital. IE: seat of government, etc.
Hmm, so how about "Jerusalem is Isreal's seat of government and declared capital". More wordy than "de facto and official", but more precise. Martin 23:10, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I timed out a bunch of protections, including this one. I've made a few edits, but I'm off to bed now. After I grab something to eat... Martin 23:44, 2 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I object to the mention of 1950 in the opening paragraph. The opening paragraph should describe the current status of the city. I don't think 1950 is especially important here. I also replaced "declared" by "official" - once again to put the focus on the current situation, not some declaration in the past.


I would like to emphasize that in the entire very long discussion above, I have not seen any valid argument for why "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is non-NPOV (except for the concern that it may imply that "Jerusalem is completely within Israel" - which is disputed. I agreed to address this concern by adding aanother full sentence clarifying the situation). Therefore, the current wording (after my latest edit), is the most drastic compromise I'm willing to accept (unless someone convinces me that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is non-NPOV). -- uriber 09:14, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)


Ok, another factual and neutral formulation I can think of is: "Israel (declared and) treats Jerusalem as its capital... -- Dissident 01:22, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

internationally recognised

I thought this incorrectly implied that no other country recognised it, which isn't true: the US recognise it, at least. I think "recognised by the UN" is more accurate. Martin 14:13, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

According to Israeli law...

As according to Israeli law, Jerusalem is treated by Israel as its capital;

I think this is wrong. The Israeli laws don't say "Israel will treat Jerusalem as its capital". Rather, they say "Jerusalem is Israel's capital". So I think this phrasing is misleading.

I don't think it's really misleading; it's just a weaker statement. -- Dissident 14:29, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Since the stronger statement is also true and NPOV, what benefit do we get from using the weaker statement? Martin 14:38, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I guess it all goes back to the question of what it means for a city to be some country's capital. -- Dissident 14:47, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Not quie clear on your point here. Obviously we can debate whether J is I's capital, but it seems to me undisputable that Israeli law claims that J is I's capital. Martin 18:32, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I changed According to Israeli law, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, to Jerusalem is the capital of Israel according to Israeli law. This is an important distinction: The first implies that Israeli law is just some POV on the subject ("According to Israeli law it is capital, according to someone else it isn't"). The corrected sentence makes it more clear that Isreali law is what makes Jerusalem the capital. -- uriber 16:32, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

It's clearly an important distinction to you. To me, the two sentences are effectively identical. So this is a good compromise, I think, since it makes you happy and doesn't make me unhappy. :) Martin 18:32, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I'm happy you're not unhappy, and I'm not unhappy about your change of "according to" to "under" either. Now we just have to hope that Wik is happy, or else we will all be quite unhappy soon. -- uriber 18:45, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Edit War

Yes, I'm having an edit war with Wik. Yes, I know, edit wars are bad. Yet there is no other way to communicate with Wik, as he refuses to discuss on the talk page. So there's not much choice left to me - edit war or surrender. I'm fully aware that I could be brouggt to Quickpoll justice for this, and I'm willing to bear the consequnces. -- uriber 17:18, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

So, Wik's reverts in the last 14 hours:
  • 12:05, 3 Apr 2004
  • 12:16, 3 Apr 2004 (revert+wikify one word)
  • 16:34, 3 Apr 2004
  • 16:51, 3 Apr 2004
A sysop might judge that in violation of his parole. I'm not sure, myself.
The recent debate seems to be between "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel according to Israeli law" and "According to Israeli law, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel". I like the former, actually. I think "According to" could be "under", which would be better yet. Both are compact, but still put in the key qualiication that Wik's looking for. Martin 18:24, 3 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Moved from Wikipedia:Designation of capitals

This Wikipedia page outlines agreed-upon policy for describing the capital cities of nation states.

In nearly every case, nation states designate a city as their "capital". Other nations typically post ambassadors who take up residence there and discuss matters of mutual concern. In most cases, they own or rent a building as an official "embassy", which his extraterritoriality (i.e., the embassy is considered "foreign soil" under international law).

How shall we Wikipedians describe Jerusalem? (Vote below, picking as many statements as you believe to be ACCURATE and NEUTRAL.)

  • As a matter of "fact", Jerusalem is the capital of Israel.
  • Israel "regards" Jerusalem as its capital.
  • There is no dispute over whether Jerusalem is "really" Israel's capital.
  • A dispute exists over whether Jerusalem is Israel's capital.
  • Every nation has the undisputed and indisputable right to designate any city, anywhere in the world as its "capital".
  • No, silly! The city has to be entirely within the nation's borders.
  • Oh, so that means Israel calling Jerusalem its capital = Israel calling Jerusalem its "territory".

Sheesh

\\\\\Much of the discussion below could be avoided by noting that there is some question as to the legitimacy of Israel. If one accepts Israel as being legit, them there is a q of Jerusalem as a legitmate terrritory, let alone capital, thereof. Further anyone can say anyhing they want, like NYC is the capital of Israel, it certainly has claims upon the title, or Washington DC is the capital..., or Hollywood... but the more certain rules are by establishing a proper definition..., and authorities where the senses fail. Some say it's the capital because it once was, on the authotity of the Gaseous Invertrabrate War God Of the Bronze Age ( GIWGOBA ), that's good enough for many but not all. So J is a disputed capital of I, or I says J is the capital of..., or many Zionauts and fellow travellers say... etc is as far as one can go without sacrificing credibility to those who care about such things.////

To use a Middle Eastern expression, sheesh! All we need to say is:

  • Israel regards Jerusalem as its capital, although hardly any other country recognizes it as such.
  • The seat of the Israeli government is in Jerusalem.
  • The X, Y, Z & Q embassies are in Jerusalem, reflecting official recognition by those countries that it is Israel's rightful capital.
  • The other N embassies are in Tel Aviv, because these countries do not want to be seen as "recognizing" Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

We can also say:

  • Two elements fuel the controversy.
  • Many countries dispute Israel's claim to all of Jerusalem, regarding parts A, B & C as occupied territory. For these countries, to recognize Jerusalem as Israel's captial would be to legitimize Israel's claim on "occupied territory".
  • Some countries or nationalistic movements regard Jerusalem as the rightful capital of Palestine -- not of Israel. --Uncle Ed 12:19, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I strongly object to the first point in this proposal. It suggests that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is merely the POV of Israel, and that the question is disputed. As I succesfully argued above, this is not a POV issue, but a matter of factual accuracy, which should not be compromised. Saying "Jerusalem is the capital" would also eliminate the need for the second point. Details of which countries base their embassies where are not important enough to get in to the first pargraph. There's much (much!) more to Jerusalem than a list of embassies. -- uriber 12:30, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't know any other way of putting it. Unless you want the more cumbersome:
According to Israel and 4 other countries, Jerusulem is the capital of Israel. In an odd turn of events, Israel is the only country in the world whose capital is not recognized by the world community at large. This is largely because... --Uncle Ed 12:56, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Except this is, in addition to being cumbersome, also false. You assume here that any country not basing its embassy in Jerusalem actually does not recognize it as capital - which is of course not true (see the US example). Anyway, as I said (many!) times before, the first paragraph should not focus on the diplomatic formal concept of "recognition" (mainly, because there is no such concept when it comes to capital - see Zero's comments), but rather on the factual status of Jerusalem - namely, it being capital.

Once again, there is no dispute here. No-one, throughout this entire discussion has claimed that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is false (i.e., that it is not the capital), or even provided evidence that anybody on earth believes that it is false. There is simply no dispute that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel - and therefore this fact should be clearly noted in the first few sentences of the article, as it is for any other capital. Isuues of "recognition", disputes about "legitimacy", and visions about the future should all be explained later, after stating the undisputed facts. -- uriber 13:07, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Ed replies: Don't get me wrong, Uriber. I personally believe that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. But some Arabs dispute this, particularly those calling themselves "Palestinians".
Please provide at least one quote of anybody (be that Palestinian or other) saying "Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel", with reasonable justification. (People saying "Jerusalem should not be the capital of Israel", "Jerusalem being capital of israel is illegitimate", etc. don't count, ofcourse) -- uriber 14:06, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
  • The Council for the Advancement of Arab-British Understanding (CAABU) discovered that Harper Collins' 2002 reprint of their "Mini Atlas of the World" states on pages 136/7 that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel despite the fact that the UN and the international community has never recognised Jerusalem as Israel's capital. [13]
  • The publishers have stated that it will add a footnote against Jerusalem where it appears in country listings, which will state "De facto capital. Disputed". [14]
This was brought up before (you did read the entire discussion before jumping into this, right?) Anyway - as I said when it it was first brought up, it proves nothing. Harper Colins' are commited to keeping everybody happy (and ultimately, to their sales figures) not to NPOV. -- uriber

This short article sounds neutral, but check it out and see for yourself: http://www.centerpeace.org/factsheets/fact-sheet-jerusalem.htm

From this article: "Jerusalem is [...] claimed as its capital by two peoples - Israelis and Palestinians." Is this even English? Anyway, it clearly deals with "claims", not with the current factual status of Jerusalem - so it is more-or-less irrelevant to the question at hand. -- uriber 14:06, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Claims are entirely relevant to the discussion. It is not the place of Wikipedia to decide the factual status of Jerusalem, but the report the fact that one group claims X, one group claims Y, etc. That's exactly how Wikipedia:NPOV works. We can argue till we're blue in the face over whether "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is true fact, false fact, or opinion, but there should be no argument at all with the fact that "The government of Israel considers Jerusalem to be its capital," and "Palestinians dispute the claim of Israel to Jerusalem." The fact that these people claim these things is indisputable and well-documented. Jdavidb 20:38, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Oh, and "sheesh" is not a Middle Eastern expression. To the best of my knowledge, it's an Eastern European Jewish expression.  :-) -- uriber 14:06, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

If I provide enough baksheesh to the right party, can I make "sheesh" a Middle Eastern expression? Okay, you're obviously right about that. And I agree that Jerusalem is Israel's capital -- because I recognize any nation's right to designate any of its cities as its capital.
But did you know that a certain group (hint: starts with A) (a) disputes Israel's claim to Jerusalem (can't designate what you don't "have") and (b) has managed to get all but a handful of the world's nations to go along with them (clever devils, aren't they?).
None of them claim that Israel does not have Jerusalem. All they say is that Israel should not have Jerusalem - which is their POV and they are entitled to it. However the facts (as opposed to what should be) are not disputed - Jeusalem is Israel's capital. -- uriber 15:21, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Now, between you and me this dispute may sound as silly as the flat earth theory, but to be both accurate and neutral shouldn't we say something about the dispute? --Uncle Ed 15:09, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
No, the dispute over the future of Jerusaelm is not silly. It is very serious. However, the dispute about the present status of Jerusalem (which is what we are concerned with here) simply does not exist. And I have no problem mentioning (and even discussing in depth) the disputes that do exist. But only after the facts are laid out. -- uriber 15:21, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Sounds like there are two issues here, which I conflated into one.

  1. Whether or not Jerusalem is the capital of Israel -- a matter of fact
  2. Whether or not various nations recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel --Uncle Ed 19:16, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I think you got it backward. Whether or not various nations recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel is a fact. Whether or not Jerusalem is the capital is an opinion. anthony (see warning) 21:17, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

To Ed: Exactly! That's what I'm trying to explain to people here for the last couple of months. By treating those questions separately, we can give clear and simple answers to both of them: Israel is the capital of israel, but most governments don't recognize it as such. Now that you got it, will you help me set this straight in the article? -- uriber 21:43, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Uriber, whether or not East Jerusalem can be considered a part of Israel is certainly disputed. As such, it is also disputable whether Jerusalem can be the "indivisible" capital of Israel... john 21:35, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I never suggested using the word "indivisible" in the article. So what's your point here? -- uriber 21:43, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Well, the official position of Israel is that Jerusalem, not West Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. No other country in the world recognizes East Jerusalem as being part of Israel. So Jerusalem (as opposed to West Jerusalem) can't be the capital of Israel unless we recognize East Jerusalem to be part of Israel. BTW, if you say "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, but most governments don't recognize it as such," then that means you're saying that those governments are wrong. How is that NPOV? john 23:17, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Sorry for the late reply - I somehow missed this before.
I previously explained in length why saying "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" does not imply that "all of Jerusalem is indisputably part of Israel". Go back to the archives, and read what I said.
"West Jerusalem" and "East Jerusalem" are basically historic concepts. None of them exists as a separate entity today, and therefore none of them can be capital of any nation.
If I would say "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, but most people think it is not" - than I would be saying that most people are wrong - which is obviously not NPOV. I explained previously in detail the difference between an individual (or a collective) holding a belief (or having a POV) on a subject, and, on the other hand, the formal concept of "diplomatic recognition" - which is unrelated, and does not imply any POV. Again - look in the archives if you want details. -- uriber 19:18, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
  • I can certianly believe I missed something, and if this has been brought up, forgive me, I don't mean to butt into the discussion, but Israel declared jerusalem something like its "Eternal and undivided" capital (I think in 1950). As far as I know, theres nothign to stop Israel from declaring western jerusalem as it's capital, it's the inclusion of the rest of it, the occupied territories part - that problematic, and denied by other countires. Datepalm17


Capital

The problem here is that nobody has defined capital. The page given is a circular definition (capital is the seat of government, seat of goverment is the capital). Define seat of government. Bensaccount 23:19, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Seat of government is the location of the government. - Wikipedia

Now the real question is where is Israel's government located. Bensaccount 23:23, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

To quote the article: "All the branches of Israeli government (Presidential, Legislative, Judicial, and Administrative) are seated in Jerusalem". Martin 23:28, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

By the way, capital is not identical with seat of government. Amsterdam is the capital of the Netherlands, but the seat of government is The Hague. john 23:31, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

You are on the wrong page. Go to capital or seat of government. Bensaccount 23:33, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

God you're obnoxious. john 23:53, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm objective. Bensaccount 23:57, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Jerusalem IS the capital of Israel every book on countries i read since i was five years old stated that!--Plato 01:01, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Quite a few that I have read state the capital to be Tel Aviv. Ender 08:02, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Government

A government is an organization that has the power to make and enforce laws for a certain territory. - Wikipedia

Regarding Martin's compromise

I accepted Martin's suggestion ("under Israeli law") before. I deeply regret doing so - this is an awful solution, not much different than the one I was fighting against to begin with. However, I did accept it (what was I thinking?), and I feel it would be wrong of me to remove it now if it's put up again. However, this applies only to the exact phrasing as it was in this edit - including the fact that the capital issue was on the first paragraph. I regard myself free to actively object to any other formulation (even if only different by a comma), and to replace any such phrasing by one which I find to be more correct. -- uriber 23:21, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I've moved the capital issue into the first paragraph. Martin 23:28, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I'm interested in why you so deeply regret accepting my compromise. From what you said, I thought your only issue with it was wordiness? What have I failed to understand? Martin 23:31, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
For a much better answer than the one I gave you below (a few hours ago), please see my response to Slrubenstein's suggestion, further below -- uriber 13:58, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Because the convoluted wording sends a strong message to the reader that Jerusalem is somehow not "really" the capital - the same way e.g. London is. Think - would you accept "London is the capital of the UK under British law, and functions as capital"? It sounds silly, and makes you look for some hidden message ("why don't they just say it's the capital, then?"). Since Jerusalem is the capital of Israel in exactly the same manner that London is the capital of the UK, I can't really be happy about and formulation which I wouldn't find acceptable for London. -- uriber 08:33, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Also, the suggested wording implies (perhaps not as strongly as other suggested formulations, but still) that Jerusalem being capital of Israel is a matter of POV. Throughout this entire discussion, nobody actually presented evidence that "Jerusalem is the Capital of Israel" is, in fact, disputed (e.g., a quote from someone saying "Jerusalem is not the capital of Israel"). What's the point of successfully arguing, if you then have to give in and compromise? I have a natural tendency to try and compromise when I'm faced with someone with obvious good intentions (such as you). But looking at the end result later, I realized that compromising on this issue (to such a degree as I did) was wrong. Goodwill should not be allowed to supersede good arguments - which those opposing to "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel (period)" have none of. -- uriber 09:51, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
One more thing - Uriber, would you consider "Under Israeli law, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" (IE, reverse the order), or would that be as unacceptable as the "According to Israeli law, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" phrasing favoured by Wik which you disapprove of?
I'm afraid I won't accept it. Just like "accordnig to...", it puts the emphasis on a phrase which appears to be limiting the sense in which Jerusaelm is the capital, instead of on the main fact - that it is the capital. This might look like a silly distinction, but since the "capital under Israeli law" formulation is already at very edge of what I'm willing to accept (actually, several inches beyond that edge), I'm not willing to move any further away from what I think is the most correct formulation ("Jerusalem is the capital of Israel."), which is also NPOV. -- uriber 08:37, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Another thought that occured to me was writing "Under Israeli law, Jerusalem is the eternal and indivisible capital of Israel". I'm not sure how well that would fly - probably not so well. Martin 23:43, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)
As you suspected - this is even worse. The article isn't about Israeli law. It's about Jerusalem. -- uriber 08:38, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Ok, thanks for all your responses. Martin 21:30, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Capital is a location of lawmaker issue. There is no law I am aware of that says thay Jerusalem is a capital (prove me wrong). So you would not say "under Israeli law, its the capital", but rather "As the location of the government, Jerusalem is the capital."Bensaccount 23:52, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC) (minor semantics really)

I disagree that location of the government is the sole determining factor for being the capital, in all senses of that word. Martin 00:25, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
You are on the wrong page. If you want to discuss what determines a capital go to capital. Currently it is just location. Bensaccount 02:45, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Mote, eye, log, eye. Martin 21:28, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
That's absolutely not what it says. Note: It may consist of or be separate from the actual seat of government. Thus, Amsterdam. No one would contest that Jerusalem is Israel's seat of government. john 23:19, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

There is an Israeli law which says that Jerusalem is its capital. john 23:54, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Does it say that the government cannot legally leave Jerusalem? Bensaccount 00:14, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I may be back later. Bensaccount 00:15, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
From the article, there is a 1980 Israeli law claiming Jer. as Isr.'s "eternal and indivisible capital". Martin 00:25, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
What a ridiculous law. Bensaccount 02:50, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
More to the point, there's a UN Security Council resolution declaring the Israeli law null and void and instructing member states to withdraw their diplomatic representation from Jerusalem. Virtually all countries embassies are in Tel Aviv for this reason Ender 08:03, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't like the phrasing where the disputed point about the capital is placed before the sentence on who actually controls the city. Whether or not Jerusalem is the capital is trivia compared to which country exerts control over it. But in the interests of getting a stable version of the beginning text, I'll leave it unless someone else edits it first. anthony (see warning) 10:02, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thanks Anthony. Martin 21:18, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Proposal by Slrubenstein

May I propose the following introduction to the article?

Jerusalem (Hebrew: ירושלים Yerushalayim, Arabic: القدس al-Quds) is located at (31°47'N, 35°13'E) and has a population of 630,000. It is the largest city in, and official capital of Israel, although the status of the city under international law is unsettled. Jerusalem consists of an Old City, itself divided into Jewish, Christian, Muslim, and Armenian Quarters; a New City; and a surrounding district. After the break-up of the Ottoman Empire after World War I, Great Britain controlled Palestine through a mandate of the League of Nations. From 1923 to 1948 Jerusalem was the capital of Palestine. When the United Nations recommended a partition of Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab State, it recommended that Jerusalem be an international city, although both Jews and Arabs claimed it. After the declaration of a cease-fire in 1948, Jews controlled the New City and declared it their capital; Jordan occupied and annexed the Old City. During the 1967 War Israel occupied the Old City. In 1980 Israel declared a unified Jerusalem its capital, although in Resolution 478 the United Nations Security Council censured Israel’s act and declared it null and void. Under Israeli law; it serves as the country's seat of government and otherwise functions as capital, but most countries maintain their embassies in Tel Aviv.

I have tried to follow the format used in Wikipedia for other cities, while calling attention to Jerusalem's contested situation. Slrubenstein

I don't think you will have much luck with this paragraph due to the ongoing argument over the bolded sentence. It still has not been decided on this page what determines that a city is a capital. Bensaccount 13:15, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Here's my take at the paragraph attempting to fix the bolded sentence, which some regard as a problem (thanks, Uncle Ed, for your sheesh post which suggested this change):
Jerusalem (Hebrew: ירושלים Yerushalayim, Arabic: القدس al-Quds) is located at (31°47'N, 35°13'E) and has a population of 630,000. It is the largest city in Israel, which regards the city as its capital, although the status of the city under international law is unsettled. Jerusalem consists of an Old City, itself divided into Jewish, Christian, Muslim, and Armenian Quarters; a New City; and a surrounding district. After the break-up of the Ottoman Empire after World War I, Great Britain controlled Palestine through a mandate of the League of Nations. From 1923 to 1948 Jerusalem was the capital of Palestine. When the United Nations recommended a partition of Palestine into a Jewish and an Arab State, it recommended that Jerusalem be an international city, although both Jews and Arabs claimed it. After the declaration of a cease-fire in 1948, Jews controlled the New City and declared it their capital; Jordan occupied and annexed the Old City. During the 1967 War Israel occupied the Old City. In 1980 Israel declared a unified Jerusalem its capital, although in Resolution 478 the United Nations Security Council censured Israel’s act and declared it null and void. Under Israeli law; it serves as the country's seat of government and otherwise functions as capital, but most countries maintain their embassies in Tel Aviv.
Meanwhile, let me again say that it is not for Wikipedia to decide what is and is not a capital, but merely to report the claims of various groups. Jdavidb 20:52, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I've looked over the talk page and earlier versions of the article and see no explanation of why Jerusalem is not the official capital of Israel. What is your definition of "capital?" Do you propose changing the articles on Rome and Paris? Slrubenstein

You underestimate the importance of knowing what a capital is before writing about one. I have searched on google and I can't find any useful definitions of capital. The wikipedia definition is actually the best out there. (Britannica and Encarta have no page for capital). OneLook produces hundreds of dictionary entries that seem to all define capital vaguely as the "seat of government".

Wikipedia says that a capital is the seat of government but sometimes the seat of government is seperate from the capital. (huh?). Bensaccount 13:53, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Slrubenstein, while I'm sure you mean well, I do not think that seeking a compromise solution is the correct way to go in this case (although I have cooperated with such efforts before - only to regret it later). Before we decide on exact phrasing, etc., we have to answer one question: Is Jerusalem the capital of Israel? This might have three different answers:

  1. Yes
  2. No
  3. The matter is disputed, i.e. some people believe it is the capital, while others believe it is not the capital.

If we reach the conclusion that the correct answer is 3, then we should seek some formulation stating all POVs on the matter, or concentrate on laying down the very basic facts, avoiding the question altogether. This is where compromises might be useful. If, however, we reach the conclusion that the correct answer is 1 (as I believe is the ultimate outcome of the discussion going on here for the last several months), there should be no further objection to simply saying "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" (while of course later describing disputes regarding sovereignty, diplomatic status, etc.) -- uriber 13:41, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Geez Uriber. Do you really think that everybody on earth believes Jerusalem is the capital of Israel? Well, let's end this argument here and now. I DO NOT BELIEVE JERUSALEM IS THE CAPITAL OF ISRAEL. There. Now I have proven that teh correct and logical answer is 3. I don't want you throwing arguments at me about why it really IS the capital, because you aren't going to change my opinion. The fact of the matter is, NOT EVERYBODY BELIEVES JERUSALEM TO BE THE CAPITAL OF THE MODERN STATE OF ISRAEL. If you really must say it IS the capital of Israel, we should say it is the capital of Palestine as well because Palestinians lay similar claims to the city as their capital. Hell, we even have an article regarding why some people think Kyoto is the capital of Japan instead of Tokyo, even though there are far fewer people who think that than people who believe Tel Aviv is the capital of Israel. And, as mentioned earlier, seat of government is NOT the sole determinant of a nation's capital, eg The Hague vs. Amsterdam in the Netherlands, or cases where there is more than one seat of gov't such as South Africa (I believe Durban is the location of the judicial branch, Johannesburg is the location of the... oh crap, nevermind)... so HAH! - Node
But urbier, that's not correct. Wikipedia editors are not to concern themselves with deciding the facts of the matter, but only reporting the various views. Wikipedia does not need to decide if Jerusalem is or is not the capital; only what people's views are. So Wikipedia should report:
  1. Some people (group A) believe Jerusalem is the capital
  2. Why group A believes Jerusalem is the capital
  3. Some people (group B) believe Jerusalem is not the capital
  4. Why group B believes Jerusalem is not the capital
  5. Why group B rejects group A's reason for believing Jerusalem is the capital
  6. Why group A rejects group B's reason for believing Jerusalem is the capital
  7. Group C's beliefs, reasons, etc. as above, if applicable, etc.
  8. The fact that many Wikipedians are fed up with the whole argument. :)
There is no need to answer the question "Is Jerusalem the capital of Israel," and, in fact, answering the question is irrelevant because you can't report it in the article. See Wikipedia:NPOV Jdavidb 20:46, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I don't think you know what a capital is. Bensaccount 14:01, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Personally I believe "1," although my understanding of the UN resolutions is that the legal issues is not whether or not Jerusalem is the capital, but rather, what are the territorial boundaries of the Israeli city, "Jerusalem?" (in other words, the New city can be Israel's capital, but Israel has no right to annex the Old City). In any event, since many people dispute Israel's capital, an NPOV article must acknowledge what you have as "3." And this is exactly what I did in the part of my paragraph that Bensaccount bolded. Jerusalem is the capital; its status is unsettled -- these are both facts. So I do not see the problem, yet. Can you and Besnaccount be clearer? Slrubenstein

I don't think you know what a capital is. Bensaccount 14:01, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Hmmm. I don't think you know what a capital is. But that is neither here nor there. This is an article on Jerusalem. I went to the Jerusalme webpage and it describes Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. I went to the Israel webpage and it says that it's capital is Jerusalem. I went to the webpages of Rome and Paris and London, and they all identify these cities as "capitals," so I know that Wikipedia articles are concerned with identifying "capitals." That is ALL that I need to know to write this encyclopedia article. This is an encyclopedia. Perhaps you should check the various community portal pages on what Wikipedia is and is not. This is not a forum for personal essays or primary research; it is simply not appropriate to depate political or philosophical issues here. Slrubenstein
In other words you are telling me to get lost because you want to fight with Uriber about something you both know nothing about. Bensaccount 14:23, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
"In other words?" No, stick to the words I use -- I didn't say "get lost." I said that this is an article on Jerusalem, and should conform as best possible to other Wikipedia articles on cities. Wikipedia always mentions in the first paragraph when a city is a capital city. Jerusalem is Israel's capital city, so we must mention that. Since there are disputes concerning the status of Jerusalem, we should also mention that. You are concerned with "what a capital is." If you are concerned with this, great! Do some research on different kinds of capitals, and the legal traditions concerning the designation of capitals, and work on the article "capital!" Don't "get lost," I encourage you to do the serious research Wikipedia needs. But if you are interested in learning more about the idea of "capital," go work on the appropriate article!Slrubenstein
I dont care what a capital is. You need to, because you are arguing about it. Bensaccount 14:48, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Please explain what you mean when you say "many people dispute Israel's capital". Does it mean "many people believe that Jerusalem is not Israel's capital (excluding people who believe this as a result of simple ignorance or misinformation)"? Had it been so, I would have agreed that the correct answer is "3", and that there is a NPOV issue. However, I do not think that this is what you mean. What you mean is that many people think something like "Israel has no right to have Jerusalem as its capital". That's a fair statement 9false, but fair) - however, it has nothing to do with the question I presented - and so it leaves that question undisputedly answered "Yes". And the fact that the UN resolution deals with territorial boundaries, not the question of capital, just goes to strenghthen my point about the capital issue being undisputed. -- uriber 13:55, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'd say the answer is 2. If the vast majority of the countries in the world don't recognize the city as the capital, then it's not the capital. anthony (see warning) 01:19, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

How can you write about a capital if you havent defined what a capital is? Bensaccount 13:59, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

For Bensaccount -- interesting theoretical question, worth considering on some other page (where you can consider Wittgenstein and other philosophers of language). The fact remeans, people do talk about words without defining them, and manage to communicate quite effectively. If you do not understand how, take a philosophy or linguistics course.

You may use words without defining them but you definately do not communicate effectively. In fact you do not communicate at all. Bensaccount 14:05, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

When I see you raising this point on the pages for Rome, Paris, London, etc., I will take you seriously.
For those pages the capital definition which I currently have created is sufficient. (see Seat of government). You cant argue that the meaning of words is not necessary for their use. Its absurd. Bensaccount 14:16, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

For Uriber, I understand your point and that you are trying to be systematic and constructive. nevertheless, I think you are going off on an unnecessary and onconstructive tangent. In my proposal, I wrote "It is the largest city in, and official capital of Israel, although the status of the city under international law is unsettled." Is this in your view a false statement? Slrubenstein

It is not a false statement. However, it is an incomplete one (because it only emphesizes Jerusalem's official status as capital, pushing off the very important fact that it is also the capital in practice to the very end of a very long introduction). I also believe that the factual correctness of information presented is not the only criterion by which a text should be judged, and that the manner in which this information is presented is important as well. If you systematically avoid saying "Jerusalem is the capital" (which is the standard wording on articles about other capitals), then at least some readers will get the impression that in some way, Jerusalem is not the capital (even if this is not explicitly said anywhere). -- uriber 14:37, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thanks -- this is a reasonable response. Does this mean that you would accept the paragraph I proposed, if I delete "official?" Slrubenstein

Yes, I would happily accept it. I have some aesthetic reservations regarding having so detailed historic information in what is supposed to be an introduction paragraph - but this is a matter of style, not something I'd go to war over. -- uriber 15:16, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

For Uriber, you dont have to answer Slurbenstein because he doesnt know how to communicate. Bensaccount 14:09, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

You will have to fogive me for respectfully disagreeing with you, and answering Slurbenstein in spite of your giving me permission not to do so. -- uriber 14:37, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

To Slrub: "official" is ok, but I think it's a little vague. I prefer "under Israeli law", which is more precise. Also, where you write "Under Israeli law; it serves as the country's seat of government and otherwise functions as capital" - in this sentence, I don't believe the qualifier "under Israeli law" is required. I prefer the current formulation, all in all.

To Uriber: I think you're missing an option to the question "Is Jerusalem the capital of Israel?" My answer would be "It depends what you mean by that". It is the capital under Israeli law. It is also the capital in practice. It may or may not be the capital under international law (I don't think we ever got a firm answer on that). It's not the internationally recognised capital. It's disputed whether Jerusalem is possessed by Israel, as "capital of Israel" implies by use of the possessive tense. So there are many layers here, and it's not a simple yes or no answer.

By way of contrast, London is the capital of the UK under international law, is internationally recognised as such, and everyone agrees that the UK possesses London. So, for London it's much simpler, and thus "London is the capital of the UK" is trickier. Martin 21:34, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Summary

Uriber wants to write one thing about Jerusalem as capital. Slurbenstein wants to write another thing about Jerusalem as capital.

I find it interesting to see how these kinds of conflicts get resolved which is why I am here.

There are several pathways that are possible if progress is to be made:

  1. One person steps down for no reason.
  2. A vote is held
  3. One of you proves your point of view by presenting your argument based on the definition of capital.

In my mind the only fair way is option 3. Bensaccount 15:03, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Example for option 3:

When King Solomon built the Temple on Mount Moriah, Jerusalem was sanctified and became the international religious center of the Jewish people. Solomon also built his palace, the city was fortified, treasure houses were built, as were markets and palaces for the king's wives. It was largely due to the many wonderful buildings that Jerusalem became one of the world's most beautiful cities during this period. Furthermore, economic prosperity during Solomon's reign consolidated Jerusalem's position as an important city, the capital of Israel in the eyes of many nations.

(Moving foreward by trying to define what makes a capital). Bensaccount 15:06, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I do not commit myself to that definition of capital by the way. Bensaccount 15:07, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Your account above does not explain why Solomon built his temple on Mt. Moriah. Also, why is your account a better explanation of why Jerusalme is Israel's capital, than the fact that the Website for Israel names Jerusalem its capital? By the way, if it isn't clear to you, when the article says Jerusalem is Israel's capital it means the modern state of Israel, not the Ancient Kingdom of Israel! Slrubenstein

Again, this is an attempt to determine what makes a capital. So when you ask the question "why is your account a better explanation of why Jerusalme is Israel's capital, than the fact that the Website for Israel names Jerusalem its capital?" That is exactly the point im making, (what determines a capital).Bensaccount 17:18, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

A capital is a center of important activity. In states, the most important activity is governance. However, in some states (e.g. some kingdoms) the "capital" is wherever the King's court is, and the king's court moves from palace to palace. In many states, especially republics, the political capital is fixed. Since law is a function of governance, usually only the political capital is official (this is the case with Jerusalem) -- the economic capital is evident (the city with the largest port, manufacturing, or financial sectors). Some countries have two capitals -- political and economic. In some states the political capital is divided (the representative branch is seated in one city, the executive branch in another (In Israel, all branches of government are seated in Jerusalem). In societies with official religions there can be a religious capital as well, although in many states the religious, economic and political capital are the same. So it varies from state to state and time to time. Slrubenstein

Well anyways it seems that it has been agreed upon that Jerusalem is the capital (Its too bad that the only result from all this discussion that points towards towards this conclusion, is what you just said, but I guess explaining after resolution is better than resolving and never explaining why. Just dont tell me it was never an issue.). If this issue rearises that last point you made will be the only outcome from this discussion that helps, since the still hasn't been formally defined in the article. Bensaccount 17:37, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

No, it has not been agreed upon. We cannot let the article become the basis for someone to say, "According to Wikipedia, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel". Because that would mean we were taking sides in a dispute.
I'm deeply saddened that you are still holding this view. You did not respond to my request to provide some evidence that such a dispute exists. I for one very much hope that the article will become the basis for someone to say, "According to Wikipedia, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel". Because that would mean that that someone had learned something from Wikipedia - something that is not disputed, but that a surprising number of people do not know. -- uriber 18:08, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Now, don't get me wrong: I'm on the same side. But as an editor I have to acknowledge that there is a dispute. Don't try to sweep it under the rug. It makes the rug lumpy, and eventually it will start to rot and make a big stink. --Uncle Ed 17:55, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Well, Ed, what do you think of the version I proposed above? You didn't comment on it (or haven't, yet).Slrubenstein By the way, Ed, even in jest don't say "crazy Arabs and their sick puppy friends." It's a very unconstructive attitude. Also, it is my sense that the only Arabs who do not recognize Jerusalem as capital of Israel are those who do not recognize the State of Israel. The really divisive issues for many Arabs, including those who accept the existence of Israel, is not whether or not Jerusalem is the capital but rather Israel's unlawful annexation of East Jerusalem. Slrubenstein

I took back that crack. Sorry.
I like the phrasing of It is the largest city in, and official capital of Israel, although the status of the city under international law is unsettled better than It is the capital of Israel. --Uncle Ed 18:10, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
largest city [...] in Israel? That's even worse! Now Wikipedia would REALLY endorse the view that the whole of Jerusalem is part of and/or belongs to Israel! -- a sick puppy friend AKA Dissident
Well, I thought that the context made your point clear. But how about "Including areas occupied by Israel, it is ...?" Slrubenstein
Take a look at the third paragraph. -- Dissident 19:31, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC) (Talk)
Okay, but every other article on a major city has the population in the first paragraph. This seems reasonable, and in this case relative uniformity of style in an encyclopedia makes sense. Slrubenstein

Jerusalem as capital of Israel

Is it disputed that Jerusalem is the capital of israel? Its hard to tell (despite the endless discussion that seems to be about it).Bensaccount 20:35, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Based on what has currently been said (and what is given in Wikipedia), the following questions define whether or not Jerusalem is the capital of Israel.

  1. Is Jerusalem the city or town that contains the government of Israel?
  2. Is Jerusalem a center of important activity in Israel?

Bensaccount 21:16, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Based on what has been said so far,

  1. Jerusalem does contain the government of Israel.
  2. Jerusalem is a center of important activity.

Therefore the capital of Israel is Jerusalem. Bensaccount 21:34, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I wouldn't put any faith in Wikipedia as a source on the matter. Anyone can edit it. Madness. Martin 21:37, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
If you dont have any faith in Wikipedia why are you here? Bensaccount 21:39, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Because it won't always be this abysmal. Martin 21:40, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I dont see what you are getting at. Are you suggesting that some other source is used to define capital (politics) and this page be based on that? Wouldn't it make more sense to base it on something that is in Wikipedia? Bensaccount 21:43, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

No one disputes that Jerusalem is the de facto capital of Israel. What is in question is whether it is its de jure capital; by Israeli law, of course, it is, but whether it is by international law is highly questionable. In particular, East Jerusalem has never formally been annexed by Israel (according to Christians for Israel: http://www.c4israel.org/articles/english/e-c-00-3-kort-judicialjerus.htm ), and thus remains not a part of Israel by international law (even independent of any questions about the legality of such an annexation.) This means that de jure, at most, West Jerusalem can be described as the capital; in practice, most nations' legal position is that Israel's de jure capital is still Tel Aviv. Of course, as Bensaccount suggests, this throws into question which factor should be taken as primary in defining "capital"... - Mustafaa 21:55, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Hi Mustafaa, nice to see someone new here. I'm afraid you are presenting the information from the article you provided in a somewhat misleading way. It is true that Israel does not officially use the term "annexation" for describing the change in the status of East Jerusalem in 1968 - because you can only "annex" something which formerly lawfully belonged to a different country - and Israel never recognized any foreign sovereignty over any part of what used to be the British Mandate on Palestine. So officially what Israel did was "applying the It's laws, jurisdiction and administration". However, by doing so, Israel brought it to the same official status of the rest of Israeli territory (including West Jerusalem). So the difference in terminology has to do only with the previous status of East Jerusalem (before the "annexation" / "applying of jurisdiction and administration") - not with its status afterwards. So De jure, all of Jerusalem can be described as the capital. -- uriber 22:27, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
"De jure" depends on who has stated the law. Bensaccount 22:34, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Finally some progress.

Jerusalem contains the Israeli government and is a center of activity in Israel. Israeli law states that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, but Jerusalem is not stated as the capital of Israel by international law. Bensaccount 22:13, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I don't believe that International Law deals with the question of which city is capital of what country. Please provide some reference to prove that it does. -- uriber 22:30, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I agree with Uriber. Please tell us an example of a city that is "stated by international law" to be the capital of any country. --Zero 22:35, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I am not here to research. If noone can state for sure how international law deals with Jerusalem as capital:

Jerusalem contains the Israeli government and is a center of activity in Israel. Israeli law states that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. Bensaccount 22:42, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

OK, I can't seem to find any references for international law affecting capitals per se; my assumption was that if the territory in question is not legally part of Israel, it cannot therefore legally be its capital, but I don't actually know of any legal principle explicitly preventing a capital from being, indeed, entirely outside the country of which it is the capital if it so desires - anomalous as that would be. That's not to say no such principle exists: IANAL... Unless someone does know the details of international law on that, I'm fine with the current compromise.Mustafaa 23:41, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
To Ben: well that's what the intro already says:
# Jer. is capital under Isr. law.
# Jer. is de facto capital.
Seems you're just rephrasing what we already have? However, what we already have is a somewhat fragile consensus, so I don't think it should be replaced without agreement (IE, I agree with Uriber again).
I realize thats what it says. It said that before it was decided why it should say that. I just filled in the reasoning. Bensaccount 00:14, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I think the point about international law and the position of the UN is important enough that we perhaps shouldn't say "Jer. is the capital", but not so important that it needs to be in the intro.
Personally, I have decided I would be willing to accept "Jerusalem is the Israeli capital (but see note)". I think "Israeli" (an adjective) is much better than "Israel's" (possessive tense). However, I can't speak for Anthony or Wik on this. Martin 23:10, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
How about "Israel made Jerusalem its capital, but..."? -- Dissident 23:46, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Well, that has the possessive, which I dislike unattributed in this case ("its"). Also, I doubt that that will satisfy Uriber - it only deals with the de jure bit, not the de facto bit (both are worth mentioning, IMO). Martin 23:57, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Shouldn't it be mentioned that the Palestinians claim Jerusalem as their capital too?AndyL 00:29, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Change by Wik

Wik changed "under Israel's law" to "claimed by Israel". This is a step in the wrong direction, making the statement less clear. (Claim means demand capitals arent defined by demands). Bensaccount 01:07, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

And yet, Wik is so pro-government when it comes to the Indonesian (Islamic) occupation of West Papua (Christian), he even disputes the known English name is West Papua and moved the article to Papua (Indonesian province) where it would be so easy to find (not), or confused with Papua the Island instead; not to mention how he keeps replacing the West Papuan Genocide with a re-direct. A new meaning to the term NPOV I suspect. ;-)Daeron 11:32, 8 May 2004 (UTC)

Testimonials

Not bad, compare with [[15]]. Bensaccount 00:46, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Uriber's version of 09:03, 7 Apr 2004 is an excellent compromise and has my support. --Zero 09:17, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I can also accept the phrase "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel under Israeli law", but just barely. Consider this to be an extremely hard-fought compromise. -- Dissident 09:56, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

You might compare this formulation to
  • China considers Taiwan a breakaway province, not a seperate country.
Even thought the ROC has been holding its own national elections for more years than I can count! --Uncle Ed 12:24, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Well, China may consider them to be provincial elections instead. :-) -- Dissident 18:34, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Palestinians and Jerusalem as capital

Do Palestinians really "aspire" that Jerusalem become their capital? Bensaccount 16:56, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

"Claim" really is more accurate AndyL

I note that different approaches seems to have been taken in other controversial cases: Laayoune is described as the "unofficial capital" of Western Sahara, Jaffna as the "cultural capital" of Sri Lankan Tamils, Taipei as the "provisional capital" of Taiwan, and "The capital of Somaliland is Hargeisa". Western Sahara strikes me as the nearest parallel, as Laayoune has been under Moroccan control and annexed by Morocco (under Moroccan law, at any rate) ever since Spain left. But "unofficial capital" doesn't have the right ring to it, to my ears; if anything, it's more the official capital (as enshrined in PLO declarations, etc.) than the unofficial one. Mustafaa 18:02, 7 Apr 2004 (UTC)

How did West Germany describe Berlin before unification? Bonn was the capital of West Germany but Berlin was always considered the "real" capital but I foget the language that was used/AndyL

Was it "titular capital"? That sounds familiar... - Mustafaa 19:55, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The "also" in this sentence is incorrect. Saying also requires similarity.Bensaccount 17:30, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Number of countries which dispute the sovereignty

Wik wrote, in an edit summary:

most countries dispute Israeli sovereignty over either the entire or the eastern part of the city

Please list (or at least count) these countries, and supply a source. --Uncle Ed 18:03, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

See List of countries, minus Costa Rica and El Salvador. --Wik 18:13, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)
Ha, ha. Do you think US and UK dispute Israeli de jure sovereignty over Jerusalem? Also, there's a difference between (a) "hasn't made a statement in support of" and (b) "has made a statement disputing". --Uncle Ed 18:31, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Of course they do, otherwise they would have their embassies there. --Wik 18:42, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)
I doubt that's the reason, considering the close alliance between the three nations. The reason, at least I think, is that Jerusalem is volatile enough, and many Palestinians would consider a U.S embassy there a serious affront. I mean, not like the U.S. cares what Palestinians think or say, but I guess it's just a fear of controversy and possible violence. --Tothebarricades.tk 02:38, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The UK's position is quite clear, it does not consider Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem. Foreign Office article on Israel --Ptclark 18:12, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

A newspaper article

A dispute over the future of Jerusalem is at the heart of the Israeli- Palestinian conflict.

Divided by barbed wire into Israeli and Jordanian rule in 1948, it was reunited under Israeli sovereignty as a result of the 1967 Six-Day war. Israel claims the entire city of Jerusalem as its eternal, indivisible capital. The Palestinians want at least the eastern part of the city to become the capital of a future state. Most countries of the world have never recognized Israel's right to Jerusalem. More than a dozen withdrew their embassies to Tel Aviv in protest in 1980 when Israel enshrined its claim in law. Only three Latin American countries now have their embassies here - Costa Rica, Bolivia and El Salvador. [16]

Just to make clear that West Jerusalem is almost equally disputed, I may note that even before the 1980 decision, only thirteen countries had their embassies in Jerusalem: Bolivia, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, Haiti, the Netherlands, Panama, Uruguay, Venezuela. All of them moved to Tel Aviv after the UN Security Council resolution, although Costa Rica and El Salvador moved back to Jerusalem in 1984. --Wik 18:18, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)

All of them, eh? What about Bolivia? According to the cns news article Bolivia currently has its embassy there. But you said "all of them" moved to Tel Aviv. Did you mean "all but Bolivia" or what?
The article is mistaken. Bolivia's embassy now is at Mevaseret Zion, which is a suburb of Jerusalem but outside the city limits. --Wik 18:40, Apr 8, 2004 (UTC)

Why this issue is so hard

Each side wants to justify its own aspirations. Israel wants sovereignty over ALL of Jerusalem. Various groups of Arabs want:

  1. sovereignty over PART of Jerusalem
  2. sovereignty over ALL of Jerusalem

One may suppose that to concede (or "recognize") Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem would hurt Arabs' chances of getting ahold of it themselves. Refusing to recognize Israel's claim to the city is part of a public relations campaign aimed at getting other countries to pressure Israel into ceding control of it. (I think this strategy used to be called "land for peace", although I haven't looked at that article for a while.) --Uncle Ed 18:19, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

There are only about 20 Arab countries out there - a drop in the bucket compared to the 200 or so that don't recognize Israeli sovereignty over East Jerusalem. - Mustafaa 18:24, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Here is another quote about the sovereigty of Jerusalem. From the National Institute for Technology and Liberal Education (NITLE):

Even Jerusalem, the city Israel claims as its capital, remains an area of dispute. Predominantly Jewish West Jerusalem has been part of Israel since independence in 1948; Israel captured mostly Arab East Jerusalem in 1967. Israel has since claimed the entire city as its capital. However, the United Nations does not recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital. [17]

Nobody's posted a comment here in two millenia, er, weeks! Does that mean the "capital" issue has been settled to everyone's satisfaction? --Uncle Ed 19:13, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The way this issue has been "settled" is completely unacceptable, and I'm anything but satisfied with it. My deep disappointment at this result, and the process that led to it, is the reason I've stopped making edits to Wikipedia for the last couple of weeks, and why I probably won't be coming back any time soon. -- uriber 21:24, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I inserted the NPOV note. As I said earlier, I consider this case a litmus test for WP. See what half-a-dozen of other encyclopedias say in the first phrase. Not a single compromise was acceptable here. So let's pick one option out of two: WP is either biased or neutral. --Humus sapiens|Talk 05:32, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

According to vs Under

I prefer "Under Israeli law" to "According to Israeli law", as it is shorter, and makes more sense (laws have jurisdictions, hence "under", while people have opinions, hence "according to"). So I've gone back to that wording. Martin 21:41, 2 May 2004 (UTC)

"Under" is not restrictive enough. It suggests that Israeli law is all that is necessary to make it capital. "Under Israeli law, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is like "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. Israeli law makes it so." On the other hand, "according to" makes it clear that it is just one view (according to Israeli law, it is the capital; according to others, it isn't). --Wik 14:27, May 3, 2004 (UTC)
OK - I can understand that, even if I'm not convinced myself. Thanks for explaining. Martin
I am really not convinced. We're back a step. Jerusalem IS the capital of Israel from Israel's point of view, but since Israel controls Jerusalem it is UNDER Israeli law a capital. The next sentence - about the disputes shows the other points of view. If nobody replies to my claim I am going to change the "according to" back to "Under".

FYI: British official position on the status of Jerusalem

Occupied

Talk:Israel#Occupation is about whether the current situation should be described as "occupation", not the situation in 1948 and 1967. "occupied" is a good word choice. "gained control" is a clumsy alternative, in context. Martin 20:50, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

Capital

Jhon Den Hauge is the capital of the Netherlands even though that the main center is Amsterdam.

Intro section

I have again edited the last sentence of the first paragraph (the one about Jerusalem being the capital of Israel, which it is) to acknowledge that there is a dispute about Israel's right to have its capital there, while removing the irrelevant information about what other countries recognize or don't recognize. I have also deleted the sentence about the "law" supposedly passed to declare Jerusalem the capital of a future Palestinian state. Reading the article cited as a source reveals several discrepancies with the sentence that was in the article. Once it is corrected, a place could be found for it lower down in the article. A fact that is this trivial does not belong in the introduction. 6SJ7 03:09, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Jerusalem (capital or not)

I've removed the sentence which people seem to be fighting over. The issue is discussed in more detail in the article. MP (talk) 12:43, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Oops, I never read the archived talks specifically about this topic! - Will revert back. MP (talk) 12:45, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Instead of reading through all the discussions, it would really help if someone who has been discussing this 'Jerusalem is Israel's capital' issue for a while could update me on the situation. Thanks. MP (talk) 12:49, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

Adam, can you please write your comments more coherently; you wrote on my talk page, "no not better as I think that there was a time in which it was not it's capital but it has always wanted it to be and it is" I don't agree with the last 3 words of that quote (and neither do many nations), so what you said there is incorrect. If Israel says that Jerusalem is it's capital, that don't make it so, as many countries don't recognise the occupation of East Jerusalem as illegal. It's ambiguous. MP (talk) 13:06, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I have now changed the last sentence of the first paragraph to the version that I wrote back on October 11: "The State of Israel has its capital at Jerusalem, although its right to do so is disputed." Let me explain why. When I first saw this article in October, I found that the issue of Jerusalem's status as capital of Israel had been a subject of very bitter controversy, edit/revert wars, etc. for a considerable period. There was so much discussion that it had an archived talk page all its own. The sentence in the first paragraph about Jerusalem as capital was horrible -- I do not remember what it said, but it was anti-Israel POV. After first writing my own sentence, approximately "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel," and seeing it reverted or edited back to something ridiculous, I proposed a new compromise (same as quoted above, which as of right now is what the article says.) I felt that this capsulized the situation, while introducing the "dispute" which was (and is) detailed further down in the article. Sometime after that, someone else came along and removed the second half of the sentence, so it just said "The State of Israel has its capital at Jerusalem." That solution, either the complete sentence I wrote back on October 11, or the shortened version, has been in place for most of the past almost-3-months, with a few exceptions in which there were some minor edit battles. (They did not rise to the "war" level.) Now, someone has questioned the syntax of "The State of Israel has its capital at Jerusalem," rather than "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel." I acknowledge that the sentence structure is not ideal, but I did that for a reason. In my opinion, the two mean the same thing, but the indirect phrase "has its capital" was intended to at least placate (if not satisfy) the anti-Israel POV-ers, by implying that Israel had acted unilaterally in declaring Jerusalem as its capital. As I said, it does mean the same thing as "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel." MP says that just because Israel says Jerusalem is its capital does not make it so, and if that was all that has happened, MP would be correct. However, in addition to Israel's declaration, Israel actually does have the headquarters, seat or what-have-you of all the branches of its government in (or in the "softer" phrase that I used, "at") Jerusalem. Those two facts, the declaration and the actual location of the government institutions, together, make Jerusalem the capital. The fact that many other nations choose to have their embassies elsewhere, which is a great point of contention on the archived talk page, really is irrelevant, but in any event the phrase "its right to do so is disputed" covers that. Note, the location of the capital is not in dispute, what is in dispute is only the right, or legality, or whatever, of Israel having it there. But it is there. 6SJ7 03:14, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Palestinian claims/aspirations

The article currently states: "The Palestinians claim East Jerusalem (Al-Quds) as the capital of a future Palestinian state. In 2000 the Palestinian Authority passed a law designating East Jerusalem as such, and in 2002 this law was ratified."

I am not sure as to the basis on which "East Jerusalem" rather than "Jerusalem" is cited here, and it doesn't seem to be borne out by either of the sources given. Certainly, the Palestinians have laid no claim to West Jerusalem and their negotiating position has entirely related to East Jerusalem, but all the legal references are to an unqualified "Jerusalem". Can anyone offer any thoughts/clarifications? Palmiro | Talk 23:38, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Recent edits regarding the Palestinian position

I have reverted or altered most of the entries that occurred over the past few days regarding the Palestinian position:

  • "which has been administered by Israel since 1967 and has large Jewish and Arab populations". This is misrepresentative, as there was a purging of indigenous Palestinian Jews and Arabs from eastern and western Jerusalem by Jordan and Israel respectively. In 1967, there were no Jews in most of East Jerusalem, and those that have since moved there are considered settlers by the international community. Rather than go into all this in the intro, better to just leave it out.
  • This talk about the 'official' Palestinian position being that the Palestinian capital should be in the Jerusalem 'urban areas' is mere opinion by a few and not an official position, and I have modified it to be more accurate and NPOV. There is no official (or even unofficial) Palestinian position that excludes the relevant parts of the Old City.
  • "reflecting a general aspiration among Palestinians to establish their capital there" is redundant language as it is already mentioned in the sentence before it.
  • The paragraph beginning with "Since the late 1990s, a consensus has been developing in Israeli and Palestinian public opinion...." is inaccurate. There is no such consensus that leaves out the Old City at all. This is partly why the Camp David summit on 2000 failed. It is absolutely incorrect to refer to, among other things, the construction of the separation wall within Palestinian areas as reflecting some sort of 'consensus' between the two sides as opposed to a unilateral act by Israel. Nobody disputes that! I have modified this paragraph, deleting a large part of it.

Ramallite (talk) 21:24, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Intro and other new texts

The intro of this article has been turned into a terrible mess. I am not necessarily blaming any particular person or any particular "side" (partly because I do not feel like delving into all the different versions and figuring out who made the edits that brought us to this point.) I do not see why it cannot be something much more simple, such as this version [[18]] or this version. [[19]] Both of them were compromises. Either would be much preferable to the current fiasco. I hesitate to just do the edit myself because I know it will just be reverted or otherwise edited by one of the many POV-mongers on this issue. 6SJ7 19:33, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Everyone, further to 6SJ7's points and the discussion with Ramalite I have made some changes in the intro and in virtually all chapters of this article. We still need many more texts for the article to be about Jerusalem and not about the Jerusalem question. I have dumped these texts temporarily in the article positions on Jerusalem. I am sure that many more discussions on a better name and structure will follow. This is just the beginning. gidonb 09:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Please do not climb on the wall by the deep movements of texts out of the article, I would like to move some texts back, also on the status of Jerusalem (religious, capital, territorial) and the history of Jerusalem. For the history chapter I have not moved anything in or out, as the history article is a mess. Perhaps I will find some better texts for the current status over there. gidonb 10:03, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
OK, I have added some more neutral content to the intro. Please do not revert, but continue editing where I stopped. I worked already many hours by now. Further tomorrow. gidonb 10:27, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry by the way for the many separate edits. The advantage is that one can follow the process, the (greater) disadvantage that there is now one screen with only my edits. Oh well, I think the article has made a long way. I look forward to additions, corrections. gidonb 13:35, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

The introduction to this aticle has been changed drastically many times. I myself did edit it few minutes ago. The introduction before I edit it was biased towards the Israeli POV and stressing in a biased way the importance of the city for the Israelis. I did the changes because I did not like that second paragraph in the article. But I think the result is bad and weak. We need a real neutral introduction. Changes and counter changes are no good. I may write a new introduction and see how it goes with others. Or may be some one else car write it.

The reason I did not like the second paragraph are: 1. It mentioned ONLY that Jerusalem was the capital of the ancient Jewish kingdoms. Why mention this in an itroduction? there is a historical section where this can be mentioned. But if we will mention this in the intro, then we need to mention the pre-Israeli and post Israeli political importance of the city. I mentioned the cannanites and the Islamic rule. But the end result is all over weak .

2. It was mentioned that Jerusalem is the holiest place for the Jews, but of "key" importance to other religions. This is not true. It is the holiest place for the Jews. But it is too the Holliest place for the Christians and is the third hoiest place for the muslims, which is more than a "key" importance. I changed that too. But again the result is not very satisfactory to me.

3. Was mentioned that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, and east part is disputed. If we skip over the Capital issue, which was deeply discussed, then it is more proper to say that West Jerusalem is the capital, because the government is there and East Jerusalem is occupied. Also if we will mention that Jerusalem is the capital, then we need to mention that the East part is the disputed and the Palestinians have capital claims to it. I changed that too.

But as I said I do not like this very cramped introduction. We need a better one. I do not want to write a one now cuz I know it will be changed soon. I donno. --Thameen 17:49, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Positions on Jersualem

I copied these out of the concise history section where they do not belong. Perhaps they can be used elsewehere. The texts are not mine. gidonb 16:29, 16 April 2006 (UTC)

According to an Israeli law from January 1950, Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. In 1967, the city was reunified and the Eastern part was separated administratively from the militarily occupied West Bank and annexed to Israel. In 1980, the Israeli Knesset passed the Basic Law: Jerusalem — Capital of Israel reaffirming the status of Jerusalem as Israel's "eternal and indivisible capital". The UN Security Council Resolution 478 condemned the Jerusalem Law as "a violation of international law" and most countries prefer to keep their embassies in Tel Aviv. According to the United States Jerusalem Embassy Act of 1995, 1) Jerusalem should remain an undivided city in which the rights of every ethnic and religious group are protected; 2) Jerusalem should be recognized as the capital of the State of Israel; 3) The United States Embassy in Israel should be established in Jerusalem no later than May 31, 1999.[1]

Copied from the intro

To all: Please stop front-loading the contents of this article, there are sections on the status and history of Jerusalem and separate articles as well. This article has a tendency to become extremely politicized and repetitious every time one looks in the other direction. How about expanding the culture for a change? gidonb 22:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Jerusalem has a long history. Archaeological findings indicate the existence of a settlement in Jerusalem in the 3rd millennium BCE. The first mention of the city in historic sources begins in the 2nd millennium BCE. First built and founded by Canaanite peoples (possibly, but not necessarily the Jebusites who occupied the city during the late Bronze Age), it became the capital of the Jewish kingdoms of Israel, Judah and Judea in the First Temple and Second Temple periods. It continued to be an important city in the Holy Land during the Muslim rule. It is the holiest city of Judaism, and is of special significance to Christianity and Islam.

From 1948 until 1967, the Western part of Jerusalem was administered by Israel as its capital, while East Jerusalem was administered by Jordan. The city was reunited by the Israeli victory in the Six-Day War, although its status remains disputed. An Israeli law of 1980 declared Jerusalem to be the 'eternal, undivided' capital of Israel, while East Jerusalem is being claimed as the intended capital of a future Palestinian state. The status of the city's holy places is also disputed.

gidonb, for someone who claims to oppose vandalizing wiki, you made a good job of vandalizing Jerusalem. You are not a 5th grade essay teacher, but a wikipedian, so please have respect for other people's work. The intro for such a complex and detailed article is concise and even-handed. so please stop mass-moving large texts meticulously prepared by other wikipedians with a coarse brush. Or if you like, go and set up a gidonpedia somewhere else, which only you can edit. Monosig 10:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC)


Jerusalem has a long history. Archaeological findings indicate the existence of a settlement in Jerusalem in the 3rd millennium BCE. The first mention of the city in historic sources begins in the 2nd millennium BCE. First built and founded by Canaanite peoples (possibly, but not necessarily the Jebusites who occupied the city during the late Bronze Age), it became the capital of the Jewish kingdoms of Israel, Judah and Judea in the First Temple and Second Temple periods. Although it never again served as a national capital until modern times, throughout the centuries it continued to be an important city in the Holy Land under Roman, Byzantine, Arab, Crusader and Turkish Ottoman rule. It is the holiest city of Judaism, and is of special significance to Christianity and Islam.
In modern times, it was part of the Ottoman Empire until 1917 and the seat of government under the British Mandate, from 1917 until 1948. From 1948 until 1967, the Western part of Jerusalem was administered by Israel as its capital, while East Jerusalem was administered by Jordan. The city was reunited by the Israeli victory in the Six-Day War, although its status remains disputed. An Israeli law of 1980 declared Jerusalem to be the 'eternal, undivided' capital of Israel, while East Jerusalem is being claimed as the intended capital of a future Palestinian state. The status of the city's holy places is also disputed.
Monosig, I copied your edits here in the hopes that we can add any useful information. Note that the reason for all these moves and reverts is that your intro mostly repeats data already included in other parts of the article. I'm glad that you posted to the Talk page, but note that in order for discussions to be productive, they must be WP:civil. Also, beware of personal attacks. Cheers, TewfikTalk 23:04, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Capital

I just want to explain my edit of just now, that removed a mention of the Jerusalem as capital of Israel from the lead paragraph. Few people have been as insistent as I have that the first paragraph of this article state that Jerusalem is the capital. However, there is no need to say it twice in one paragraph. Whoever keeps putting this fact into the first sentence, please note that this fact is already in the lead, a bit lower down, as part of a sentence that I believe I wrote, which acknowledges that there is a dispute over this designation, while at the same time containing a clear statement that it is the capital. I edited this into the lead months ago as a compromise, and it has help up fairly well. Although a few people have tried to unbalance the sentence, it has always been reverted to its balanced form, usually not by me. The assertion that it is the capital, without acknowledging a dispute, while well-intentioned, always seems to invite a lot of nonsense that results in the fact not being in the lead at all. So I think it's pretty good the way it is right now. 6SJ7 03:05, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Jerusalem is the holiest city to Christians and Christianity

Introduction

Really unhappy about the POV that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel it the introduction. I don't think this represents a world wide opinion as only a few countries recognise this (Israel, El Salvador, Costa Rica and US being the only ones I can think of). I therefore believe the strength of the sentence should be reduced to something like Jerusalem is considered to be the capital of Israel or Israel maintains that Jerusalem is its capital city (as worded by the UK foreign office: [UK FCO page on Isreal]) --Ptclark 11:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)


Also I recognise that this is a page of special importance to Jewish history but concerned that this may lead to bias in the article. --Ptclark 11:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

What part of the definition of Capital does Jerusalem fail to meet? Jon513 11:02, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Being actually in the country, but my point is that most of the world does not recognise Jerusalem as the capital and therefore this is an opinion (I'm not saying that it isn't the capital nor am I saying that it is - I am saying that is is an opinion that Jerusalem is that capital) --Ptclark 11:07, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
This has been debated to death. Pls. see archives. ←Humus sapiens ну? 11:27, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Except for those that say Israel has no right to exist, does anyone claim that west Jerusalem is not part of Israel (that is west Jerusalem has been part of Israel since 48)? Jon513 11:50, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
That is irrelavent, if you read the link I put up above (as an example) you will see that the UK doesn't recognise Jerusalem as the capital and therefore it is a POV that Jerusalem is the capital. As Humus says though, been debated to death and we will never reach a consensus. --Ptclark 11:59, 1 August 2006 (UTC)
Jerusalem, or at least its western part, is definitely the de facto capital of Israel. Jerusalem is the venue of all nationwide political and administrative activities. Foreign embassadors and delegates have to drive all the way from Tel Aviv (where their embassies are located) to Jerusalem in order to deal with the Israeli government. I think the only exception to that is the Minisry of Defense which is located in Tel Aviv. This reality is not recognized by the international community, which is why the foreign embassies are based in Tel Aviv, Ramat Gan and Mevaseret Tzion. This is the reality and this is how it should be described in this article. It is a bit like the status of Northern Cyprus - no country but Turkey recognizes it officially, but no one can deny that there is a functioning state there. drork 05:38, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
indeed - but worldwide opinion should be notedJebus1 07:36, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Capital and largest city

Setting aside for a moment the utter illegality, flagrant immorality, and blatant antisemitism of denying Israel its right to designate its own capital, it is certainly accurate to write that it is Israel's capital, then follow it up with mention of the controversy. The implication of doing otherwise would be to imply that Israel has no capital, which may be the intent of some people, but not the purpose of an encyclopedia. --Leifern 00:21, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

If this is the offical new intro template for capitals - I changed Tehran too. Iran does not maintain diplomatic relations with either the United States or Israel and has disputes with several more countries, therefore soverignity is disputed. Amoruso 01:13, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Legally

Jebus1, end the reverting. It was legal according to Israeli law. We are talking about actions by the State of Israel according to its laws. According to those laws, it was LEGAL. I am also not disputing that Hitler legally killed 6 million Jews. I am also not disputing that Iraq legally confisquated all properties of all Jews it exiled. I am also not disputing that China legally kills babies. Get it? Legally here obviously means 'according to Israeli law'. Please bring me a source stating that Israeli law does not consider East Jerusalem to be part of Israel. And yes, you do need to find a dictionary if you do not understand that the term 'legally' is relative to the laws of the country in question and not relative to your own POV or to what the majority of the world thinks. Go and learn English. I know this even without a dictionary and I have never set foot in any English-speaking country. --Daniel575 | (talk) 09:50, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Since the territory is internationally disputed, one country cannot decide the legality of it. The UN disputes the legality so it is not POV, it is representative of world opinion. Your examples are irrelevant and emotive. Basically your argument it 'this is ours because we say so'. Jebus1 10:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Jebus, read up about international law. International sovereignty reigns supreme over any other consideration, and to deny Israel of its right to name its own capital is in flagrant violation of international law. Oslo is the capital of Norway because Norwegians said it is so; Bern is the capital of Switzerland because that's what the Swiss decided. The whole world may decide that Bergen or Zürich would be better, but it would be irrelevant. --Leifern 12:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
This is not the point I was arguing. The point was that one cannot say that Jerusalem is in Israel if the territory is disputed internationally.Jebus1 18:40, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
My dear, please read the following which I wrote on my talk page.

The majority of Orthodox Judaism was, is, and will always reject the dirty Zionist ideology, and their founders, the heretical Jew-haters Theodor Herzl and Chaim Weizmann and the likes, may their names and memories be destroyed from history. They are cursed, the Zionists are cursed and im yirtzeh Hashem they will be completely defeated soon. They are traitors, informers, they are worse than the Christians, worse than the Karaites, Sadducees, worse than the followers of Shabsai Tzvi, worse than the Reform. Three times a day we pray that they should be destroyed. Not that they should repent, no, we pray that they should be destroyed. The best of the goyim will be turned into our enemies, and all troubles in the world, for the cursed Zionists are the root of all evil and the source of all impurity in the world. It is the worst idolatry of all idolatries that exist in the entire world.

Does it look to you like I am here to defend the Zionists? If that's what it looks like to you, you need medication. I hate the Zionists as much as Ahmedinejad and Khaled Meshal do. --Daniel575 | (talk) 10:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
This kind of language has dangerous precedents, as you alluded to in your first statement. Jebus1 10:34, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

What kind of language? The things I wrote about Zionists? Well, it just happens to be that I am loyal to what all of the greatest rabbis have always said. --Daniel575 | (talk) 10:37, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Try reading 'Mein Kampf'.Jebus1 10:44, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Excuse me? I don't get what you're saying. --Daniel575 | (talk) 10:50, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
I am just making the point that if you dehumanise a group of people, this can have terrible consequences. I don't support some of the actions of Israelis, but they are still people.Jebus1 10:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Israelis are not Zionists. I live amongst Israelis and I carry an Israeli identity card. I am talking here about the first early Zionists, their leaders, and about current figures such as the ones behind the Temple Institute and Kach. I'm not talking about poor Iraqi Jews in Sderot. --Daniel575 | (talk) 10:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Just two points to make things straight:
  1. Zionists are people.
  2. Zionism is a diverse movement in which Kach or Temple Institute are not considered mainstream. In fact, the former was outlawed in Israel, and the latter is subject to restrictions. drork 04:51, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Fair point, well made. Jebus1 07:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
regarding capital/sovereignty of "State of Israel" i think that the following is factually accurate:

"this designation is not widely recognised by the international community (see Positions on Jerusalem)" and should be stated. Jebus1 11:27, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

It would help to separate issues pertaining to the "biggest city in Israel" from discussion on "Capital of Israel". The former is mostly about relative ranking and (barring the point of your objections to inclusion of Jerusalem into enumeration of Israeli cities) can be seen as factual assertion. Regarding the latter designation you suggest saying that it is ...not widely recognized what in my view sounds like gauging (what is the measure of "wide recognition" then - simple arithmetic majority? majority by combined GDP of recognizers? etc.) so I think saying that it is ...not universally recognized will be more exact because will not assign qualitative judgements whatsoever and yet will remain correct. DBWikis 13:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
This could imply that most countries accept it except for a few arab/persian neighbours who'd prefer it not to be there at all. This isn't the case, eg the EU, who is Israel's main trading partner, does not recognise it. Furthermore, this comes from the UN who represent the international community. Maybe 'not recognised' would be better, as claimed on the UK Foreign Office website UK FCO position. Jebus1 15:38, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
The position of British is worth noticing and was duly attended to in article Positions on Jerusalem in section devoted to UK and I think that structured approach is working reasonably well, i.e. in my view there is no real need to keep reminding to the reader of Jerusalem article all the time that this is under dispute, and that is focus of contention, and so on; as if said reader is assumed to be impared with short-term working memory deficiency. For example on the highway it is sufficient to post the max speed limit and then there is no need in incessant remainders; it is assumed that the driver has taken notice and stays informed. Likewise there is no need (unless warrented by lack of clarity) to keep repeating that Jerusalem is not universally recognized as a capital of Jewish state. Stating upfront that there is a dispute and multilayered controversy should be enough. After the reader had an explanation that some Israel's neighbours are less then happy about its claim to the city the factual account should follow unhindered by conditionals like ... according to the views of one of the parties of said dispute the fact that Eurovision contest was twice held in Jerusalem may lead to the conclusion that Israel could claim that it hosted the contest in its capital... No Sir, the logic of the article being discussed is like the following: (a) the disput is acknowledged; (b) facts are given bearing that in mind. Ergo it is logical to disclose in the introduction that Jerusalem's status is disputed and there are conflicting position regarding it; having acknowledged that, we go to the facts, e.g. that the State of Israel claims Jerusalem as its capital and that it has not (yet) met with universal recognition.

As to the question how the level of acceptance among the international community should be gauged: not wide, or not universal -- it must be clarified that the current wide rejection of Israeli claim *does not* mean wide acceptance of the contrary claims as you probably would like to argue. Instead it must be emphasized that this wide rejection is tentative, i.e. parts if the international community currently have chosen no to take sides, but this should not mean their opposition to Israeli claim is derived from the conviction that Jerusalem must be claimed by Arabs instead. It is better to explain that in fact the root cause of the current wide non-recognition is not the opposition to the claim per se but rather to the unilateral actions taken by Israel. And I am going to reread all archival talks pertaining to the subject again. DBWikis 17:01, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I am not actually taking sides and certainly not arguing the contrary position. I agree with the above. The only thing i wish to stress is that, according to worldwide opinion, that the Israeli sovereignty over some/all of Jerusalem is not (yet) established. As such, I think that the neutrality of the position on this page is important. I hope that this is an uncontrovertial statement. Jebus1 17:18, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Worldwide opinion about Israel's sovereignty over West Jerusalem is not seriously contested (except by groups such as Hamas), and West Jerusalem is still Israel's most populous city. Further attempts to change this wording will simply be reverted out of hand. Jayjg (talk) 02:04, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
This is not actually true - indeed the only country i know of that accepts it openly is the US. Read the Positions on Jerusalem and the above comment which was expressed very well by DBWikis at 17:01, 2nd Sep.Jebus1 07:32, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Jayjg: i am not trying to promote a propagandist line - just represent a neutral opinion. Neutral, which I take to mean worldwide opinion as expressed by the UN, which represents the international community. Just because you don't agree with this opinion does not make it propagandist or biased. Perhaps you may wish to look at international opinions on this before deciding that they are wrong. This is not an anti-Israeli view. Jebus1 10:13, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Which countries dispute Israel's sovereignty over "west" Jerusalem? Aside from the various Arab countries etc. that do not recognize Israel at all? Does the U.N. dispute Israel's sovereignty over "west" Jerusalem? In fact, it has accepted its jurisdiction over Jerusalem, since Security Council resolutions regarding the the region all talk about land captured as a result of the 1967 war, not land captured in the 1948 war. The reality is that Jerusalem is an Israeli city, Israel's most populous city. Please stop trying to turn Wikipedia into a platform for your personal political views. Jayjg (talk) 16:41, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, the UK for one. But it seems that you are unconcerned with international opinion and will take your unilateral action anyway. Good luck with that attitude. Jebus1 11:55, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
wow, that's interesting, I didn't know that about the UK. Saying "the UK for one" implies that there are others, perhaps you meant to say "the only one is the UK". Jon513 15:16, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
This is clearly not what i meant but thank you for your misrepresentation.Jebus1 15:59, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Introduction (yet again)

It is depressing to see that after such exhausting amounts of debate we have ended up with such a POV introduction. There is a very simple rule that should guide us here: Nothing should be stated as a fact or implied to be a fact unless it is near-universally accepted to be true. By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute" (WP:NPOV). Much has been said on this page about the definition of "capital"; this is not relevant. For Wikipedia to define for the World what a "capital" is would be original research. What is relevant is the definition of "fact". Because it is far from universally accepted that Jerusalem is Israel's capital, we should not state it as a fact. Period.

The present introduction states "Jerusalem... is Israel's capital [implying that it is a universally accepted fact that it is the capital] and largest city [implying that it is a universally accepted fact that Jerusalem in its entirety is an Israeli city], and uses the phrase The status of the united Jerusalem, which implies that a united Jerusalem exists as a matter of accepted fact, with merely its status subject to debate. It goes on to say that Jerusalem's status... as Israel's capital is not widely recognised by the international community, which is a blatantly misleading understatement, since not a single nation has recognized such a status. Stating that Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem is particularly controversial is also an understatement: "widely condemned" would be closer.

For some fresh air, it may be helpful to step back and look at how others – fellow Wikipedians writing in other languages – have attempted to deal with the same issue. Here are a few leads from some languages that I can attempt to translate:

French:

Jerusalem... is a middle-eastern city which has a dominant place in the Jewish, Christian and Muslim religions, and in Israeli and Palestinian national sentiment. The state of Israel has declared unified Jerusalem as its "eternal capital". This designation is not accepted by the international community. East Jerusalem is also claimed as capital of a potential future Palestinian state.

Swedish:

Jerusalem... is since 1949 the de facto capital of Israel, a status that has met weak international recognition. Most countries keep their embassies in Tel Aviv.

German:

Jerusalem... is the capital of the state of Israel. The presidency and... are located there.
East Jerusalem was conquered during the six-day war and annexed in 1980 by a constitutinal amendment. The annexation is condemned as illegal by the international community and is therefore not recognized. There are thus international reservations about the extensions of Israeli rights to the eastern parts of the city and the expansion of the city boundary (and thereby the status as capital) to the east. The Palestinians claim the eastern part of the city as capital of a future Palestinian state.

Italian:

Jerusalem... is located...enormous historical and geopolitical importance... symbolic place for... Christianity, Judaism and Islam.
The international governance originally called for by the UN for the city of Jerusalem (corpus separatum) was never realized. Actually, the international community considers East Jerusalem to be occupied territory, in the sense of the IV Geneva Convention, while the state of Israel considers East Jerusalem an integral part of its own territory, although it does not recognize citizenship rights of its inhabitants. The state of Israel has declared Jerusalem as its capital since 1950 and introduced legislation to this effect in 1980, but no other UN member state recognizes this, and most countries maintain their diplomatic missions in Tel-Aviv, the economic and financial center of the country.

None of these leads are perfect either, but I hope it is clear by contrast how biased the present English Wikipedia article comes across. For example, note that three of those four leads chose to avoid stating that Jerusalem "is" the capital.

I would think that anybody who actually wants a NPOV article should be able to agree on a policy of simply not stating as a fact anything that is at all debated. We don't need to state that Jerusalem "is" the capital, we can stick to universally agreed facts, such as what the Israli, Palestinian, and UN positions are. We don't need to imply that all of Jerusalem belongs to Israel; we can easily formulate any population information etc. without falling into this trap.

To be NPOV, we must also mention in the lead Palestinian as well as Isreali claims to Jerusalem. And we cannot gloss over the international condemnation of the annexation (nor should we affirm that condemnation, we should merely report it fairly). --mglg(talk) 20:48, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Wikipedia does define what a capital city is -- not for the "World", but just for Wikipedia. I have never read it before just now, and the first sentence needs some rewriting, but the upshot of the "Capital" article is that a capital is the seat of a country's government. And so Jerusalem is, indisputably -- all three branches of the Israeli government are headquartered in Israel, and Israel says that Jerusalem is its capital. Nothing more is required. What is disputed is whether Jerusalem should be the capital, but that is a different issue. By the way, the "Capital" article lists Jerusalem under "Unorthodox (ha ha) capital city arrangements", which seems pretty fair. As for what this article should say, I have in the past written two different compromises for the first paragraph, both of which consisted of a separate sentence (at the end of the paragaph) stating that Israel is the capital but recognizing the dispute. Unfortunately, the former consensus to keep it that way apparently vanished a month or two ago, and I got tired of changing it, so I stopped. The result is the current unqualified statement about Israel being the capital. I do feel strongly that Israel should be identified as the capital in the first paragraph, because it is. 6SJ7 21:59, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't see what you wish to change here - the version is exactly the same as the German version and others. It says it's the capital and still in the intro it says "The status of the united Jerusalem as Israel's capital is not widely recognised by the international community (see Positions on Jerusalem), and Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem is particularly controversial.". Nothing more clear than this. Amoruso 23:06, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Oh, they are exactly the same? So you wouldn't mind if I substituted one of the others? mglg(talk) 16:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Nah, ours is still better. Amoruso 00:56, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Citing other wikipedia languages is irrelevant. Some countries especially in europe that you quoted are very hostile to Israel and thus their introductions will be quite similar to Arab versions and not to the Israel version. I see the German version actually says "is the capital of Israel" though you didn't emphasise it. It's practically the same. The article deals extensively with the status of jerusalem in international law. it doesn't change the fact that it is the capital of Israel and it follows other introductions of other capitals, as an important opening line. Amoruso 23:04, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

If you like to dismiss opinions of entire continents, you may wish to reconsider whether you ought to participate in international efforts like Wikipedia. English-language Wikipedia is a global encyclopedia that should reflect a global perspective. --mglg(talk) 16:48, 22 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, I'll take that into account. Wikipedia doesn't have to be biased like the U.N which is a political forum and this on the other hand is an encyclopedia. We deal with facts, not with anti Israel opinions advocated by political groups. Amoruso 00:56, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
The UN is indeed a political forum. A forum where almost all states in the world are represented. Even Israel. Expression of opinion that disagrees with Israeli opinion is not anti-Israeli and nor is it inherently biased. Jebus1 10:03, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
Having one Jewish state in the U.N while having 22 Arab states and giving 1 vote each is a bias to begin with. You can read the article on criticizm of U.N, this system is obviously flawed. Amoruso 00:10, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
One state (of small population) with a very powerful ally as a permanent member of the security council vetoing any decision contrary to its interests. Jebus1 08:29, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Obviously that ally didn't vetoe enough S.C res. since half of them address Israel more or less. Israel is the only country not invinted to be a part of this S.C at one point or another. Amoruso 08:31, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
You are missing the point. This is not a political debate. This is a debate about facts and how they should be presented. Once you use the term "capital city" you commit yourself to a certain definition, you cannot avoid that. Let us take an example which is less politically charged. Here is the definition of Amsterdam in the intorduction to the article: "Amsterdam, the official capital of the Netherlands". The fact is that none of the government institutes of The Kingdom of the Netherlands is located in Amsterdam, and yet the article still defines it as an "official capital". The Hague on the other hand is defined as the third largest city in the Netherlands and "the seat of government". Jerusalem is in fact both the declared capital of Israel and the seat of the Israeli government. There is a UN resolution which rejects that, and all foreign embassies are located outside Jerusalem, and yet all foreign delegates and officials come to Jerusalem to meet with Israeli officials and to attend official ceremonies. The facts on the ground do suggest that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. It should be pointed out in the introduction, though, that this status is internationally contested and that there are Palestinian claims to this city. drork 21:18, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
The relevant question is not whether it is true that Jerusalem "is" the capital, or a wholly Israeli city at all, but whether these things are universally accepted, which they very obviously are not. 210.255.218.52 11:29, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
As far as I know, the goal of Wikipedia is to present facts rather than beliefs or aspirations. Therefore I find your remark rather peculiar. drork 16:41, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Please re-read the beginning of this section. Yes, the goal of Wikipedia is indeed to present "facts". And this, again, is how Wikipedia defines a "fact": "By 'fact' we mean 'a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute' (WP:NPOV). If there is any disagreement about something, it is a particular POV and should not be presented as a fact on Wikipedia. Even things that the author can prove to be true (!) cannot be presented as facts unless there is near-universal agreement about them. If this policy is unclear to you, please read WP:NOR which explains it clearly. Since there very obviously is no global agreement that Jerusalem in its entirety belongs to Israel, we must not state directly or indirectly that it is. Period. Therefore we cannot state that it is "the capital and largest city of the State of Israel", because saying so implies that it belongs, in its entirety, to the State of Israel. And there is no reason to make any such statement: we can convey the actual situation with similar brevity and and much higher precision by explaining that Israel claims it as its capital. --mglg(talk) 20:15, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Since there has been no improvement in a month, I will go ahead and make the edit myself. Please respond to the above reasoning before reverting. --mglg(talk) 20:19, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Even though some people may not like it, Jerusalem is under Israel's control, and is the largest city in Israel. Also, it displays all the features of a capital, and serves as such de facto, and is designated as such by Israeli law (de jure). Thus, it is the capital of Israel. This has nothing to do with what's "right", or "acceptable", it only deals with the facts of the situation. okedem 20:33, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Facts are facts, and they're properly sourced. Jayjg (talk) 21:06, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Welcome, jayjg. With your long Wikipedia experience, you surely understand the WP:NPOV policy that the only things that can be stated as facts are those "about which there is no serious dispute"? --mglg(talk) 21:54, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
The introduction fairly characterizes the position of those who dispute Jerusalem's status; that satisfies WP:NPOV. Jayjg (talk) 21:58, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Aside from the obvious fact, I've added 8 good sources attesting to it. Jayjg (talk) 22:54, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Capital of Israel

Since Jerusalem is not considered part of, or capital of Israel, except by USA and Israel itself, the first paragraph is misleading. I have tried to include this fact in the text several times, but it was deleted. Obviously this article cannot be considered to be written from a NPOV. --Gerash77 22:04, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, looking at famous Encyclopedia articles on this city, and compare it to the wiki one, makes this POV more clear:

BRITANNICA © :

Jerusalem Hebrew Jerushalayim, Arabic Bayt al-Muqaddas or Al-Quds ancient city of the Middle East that since 1967 has been wholly in the possession of Israel. In 1949 the city was proclaimed its capital by Israel. Jerusalem plays a central role in the spiritual and emotional perspective of the three major monotheistic religions. For Jews throughout the world, it is the focus of age-old yearnings, a living proof ofancient grandeur and independence and a centre of national renaissance;for Christians, it is the scene of their Saviour's agony and triumph; for Muslims, it is the goal of the Prophet Muhammad's mystic night journey and the site of one ofIslam's most sacred shrines. For all three faiths it is a centre of pilgrimage—the Holy City, the earthly prototype of the heavenly Jerusalem.

ENCARTA © :

Jerusalem (Hebrew Yerushalayim; Arabic Al Quds), city lying at the intersection of Israel and the West Bank, located between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea, about 50 km (about 30 mi) southeast of the Israeli city of Tel Aviv-Yafo. Jerusalem is composed of two distinct sections: West Jerusalem and East Jerusalem. West Jerusalem, which is inhabited almost entirely by Jews, has been part of Israel since Israel was established in 1948. East Jerusalem, which has a large Palestinian Arab population and recently constructed Jewish areas, was held by Jordan between 1949 and the Six-Day War of 1967. During the war, East Jerusalem was captured by Israel, which has administered it since. Israel claims that Jerusalem is its capital, but Palestinians dispute the claim and the United Nations has not recognized it as such. Jews, Christians, and Muslims consider Jerusalem a holy city, and it contains sites sacred to all three religions.

--Gerash77 22:16, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

We've had this discussion too many times, and it always amounts to this:
  1. Jerusalem is the official capital of Israel, by law.
  2. Jerusalem serves as capital for the citizens of Israel, holding the parliament, government offices, supreme court, official quarters of the PM and president, etc.
These facts make it capital, and the status of a city as capital has nothing to do with international recognition. okedem 07:44, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Regardless, the tag doesn't belong in the top because of one issue like explained in my revert reason. Cheers. Amoruso 09:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Regardless 2, the Britannica reference is a pretty bad one for your argument because it says : "in 1949 the city was proclaimed its capital by Israel" and doesn't say it's disputed, so I'm not sure what you were getting at. It even says that whole Jerusalem is in possession of Israel (!) if you don't know, possession implies legality in law, it doesn't say occupation. I think this wikipedia article is much more WP:NPOV or WP:POV AGAINST Israel as you can see in the section Jerusalem#Jerusalem as the capital of Israel which is basically an attack on Israel so I'm not sure what bothered you in terms of POV actually. Amoruso 09:24, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Possession implies legality in law... Which law are you talking about? FrancescoMazzucotelli 15:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
The argument about how to handle the "capital" issue is one of longest running in all of Wikipedia and it got real boring round about 3 years ago. Anyway, I just want to point out that the Britannica wording shows that they have the same problem and chose their words real carefully to avoid saying either that Jerusalem is sovereign Israel or not, or whether it is the capital or not. Btw, it is true that I possess the things I own, but the word "possession" certainly does not imply ownership. See possession of stolen goods. --Zerotalk 11:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Let's be clear here: the sovereignty of Jerusalem is what's disputed, not Israel's right to establish a capital on its sovereign soil. The legal status of Jerusalem is very complex, but I think the correct way to think of it is that Israel has established its capital in Jerusalem, but the international community does not universally accept Israel's sovereignty over parts of Jerusalem in which governmental offices are established. If the international community disputes Israel's right to determine where its capital should be, we are dealing with discrimination that is probably without parallel in human history. --Leifern 19:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
"...sovereignty over parts of Jerusalem in which governmental offices are established" - The governmental offices, the parliament, the supreme court, etc., are all located in West Jerusalem, which has been under Israel control since 1948/9. That part of Jerusalem is just as Israeli as any other part of the country, in its 1967 borders. So there's no point in arguing over "parts of Jerusalem". okedem 20:18, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you, okedem, you actually edit-conflicted me out from asking that question, because what you say is what I have understood from past discussions. The structures that make Jerusalem the capital have always been in Israel. As I also understand, it is the Israeli declaration that the "complete and undivided Jerusalem" is its capital that the UN and most nations cited in their various protests. So unless one believes that all of Jerusalem was "stolen" by Israel, there is no allegation that Israel's capital is on stolen land. The protest is against Israel's occupation and later annexation of eastern Jerusalem, having nothing to do with where the capital is actually located. It is all symbolic and meaningless. 6SJ7 21:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Leifern is correct in that the issue is sovereignty. The dispute about the capital would immediately vanish if Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem was confirmed by the international community. The counter-argument about West versus East Jerusalem doesn't work for several reasons. A legal reason is that the UN has never accepted Israeli sovereignty over any part of Jerusalem (the SC resolutions denouncing the annexation of West Jerusalem were never repealed). That's why no nations agreed to treat Jerusalem as the capital from 1948 to 1967. A more important reason today is that Israel is adamant that the whole of Jerusalem is the capital. This means that other nations cannot accept the Israeli declaration without in effect acceding to the annexation of East Jerusalem. That's why they don't accept it. If Israel announced tomorrow that only West Jerusalem was the capital, probably lots of nations would accept it. That won't happen though. --Zerotalk 09:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
The international recognition is irrelevant. Jerusalem is Israel's capital, whether other nations accept it or not. That's just the fact of the matter. The sovereignty issue is dealt with in the lead itself, and that's why the "neutrality" tag should be removed.
The UN's issue with west Jerusalem stems from the partition plan of 1947, which called for the internationalization of Jerusalem. Unfortunately, that plan was rejected by the Arab leadership, and so was not implemented. Other parts of the country, like some of the Galilee, were supposed to be a part of the Arab state, however, those are internationally recognized as legally as part of Israel. The partition plan is now long defunct, and so is the internationalization idea.
And as a city, it's the largest in Israel - it has the most residents, and is under complete Israeli control. okedem 18:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I would suggest quite NPOV change in the lead: "... is de facto capital of ...". --Magabund 22:25, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
I see it now. Thats exactly what it is, all these goyims attacking Israel on their biased media.--Gerash77 04:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
"Goyims"? You didn't even bother to learn some Hebrew grammar before using a Jewish language to attack the Jews. Beit Or 08:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Largest and most populous city in Israel

Even if we accept the claim over "capital of Israel", the article claims it is the "largest city of Israel", with the population including the occupied territories. Unless there is a consensus on this, the sentence will remain disputed, and any removal of the tag is vandalism and will be reverted.--Gerash77 22:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

"And as a city, it's the largest in Israel - it has the most residents, and is under complete Israeli control. " - Okedem
No, the fact that it is occupied by Israel, doesn't make it the largest city in Israel. Israel also occupies many cities in the west bank, but that doesn't mean they are cities of Israel. You are trying so hard to show that your statement is neutral, but it is not logical anyway you look at it.--Gerash77 19:40, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
The cities is the west bank aren't under Israeli law, aren't filled with Israeli citizens, and aren't governed by Israeli municipal authorities. I know Jerusalem has a special status, but it's still an Israeli city, even if you (or anyone else) thinks it shouldn't be. okedem 20:24, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Since, "me and anyone else" including United Nations say otherwise, it is obviously not an statement without dispute. Hence the tag should remain. I understand this is an emotional issue for Jews, which is why I think its better to keep the sentence, and not to go for an edit war. Nevertheless, the least we could say is that it is a disputed statement, (if not totally false).--Gerash77 20:45, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
The status of Jerusalem is dealt with in the lead. The tag needs to go. okedem 21:05, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
One more time: The tagged sentence is not neutral.--Gerash77 21:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I'll make it clearer - the "neutrality" tag is a terrible thing to use - it adds no data for the reader, only confuses him:
a. The first part of the sentence states that its Israel's capital. There's no neutrality issue here, it is the capital.
b. The second part says it's the largest. If you think that's not neutral, suggest ways to fix it. Don't use the tag, it doesn't help anyone!
Anyway, sometimes we have to use statements that may seem less than ideal. That's reality. That's also why we can address these issues in another sentence, as the lead does, which solves the NPOV issue. okedem 21:29, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
You could write "Jerusalem is Israel's seat of government and its proclaimed capital. It is cosidered the largest city in Israel, though Israel's sovereignty over the city is disputed." This is a pretty accurate description of the current situation in the city. It is worth while to point out that En-Wikipedia uses terms like "Republic of China" rather than "Chinese Taipei" and "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" rather than "Turkish occupation in northern Cyprus", so apparently we do value self-proclamation more than we value international resolutions. drork 22:18, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Good point drork, but the problem is not only in lead. There is quite scarce information about Jerusalem's international status in article. For example "...during which time West Jerusalem was part of Israel and East Jerusalem was part of Jordan" would sound more NPOV when construed like "...during which time West Jerusalem was under the control of Israel and East Jerusalem under Jordanian control". --Magabund 22:51, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

The fact the Jerusalem is the seat of government of the state of Israel is not disputed; nor is that fact that it is the proclaimed capital. Only the legitmacy of its sovereignty is disputed. As other have pointed out, why can't we just use language that indiciates such? "The proclaimed capital and seat of government is in Jerusalem; however, Israel's sovereignty over Eastern Jerusalem is not internationally recognized." Anything along those lines should resolve most of the problem, though the exact language will need tweaking.Zalotiye 23:58, 14 November 2006 (UTC) And for Gerash77, goyim is already plural. The singular is goy; goyim is plural.

Long ago it was decided not to include the sovereignty issue of Jerusalem into the first paragraph. In fact, now that I've rechecked the history of the article, it seems the capital/largest city issue was unilaterally added to the article by User:Amoruso in early September.

Before:

Jerusalem ([[Hebrew language|Hebrew]]: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם (help·info), Yerushaláyim or Yerushalaim; Greek: Ιεροσόλυμα, Ierosólyma or Ιερουσαλήμ, Ierousalēm; Latin: Hierosolyma; Arabic: القُدس (help·info), al-Quds; official Arabic in Israel: أورشليم القدس, Urshalim-Al-Quds) is an ancient Middle Eastern city on the watershed between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea at an elevation of 650-840 metres (about 2000-2500 feet). Jerusalem is Israel's official capital, although Israel's sovereignty over Jerusalem is not widely recognised by the international community (see Positions on Jerusalem).

After his/her edits, the second sentence in the paragraph became grammatically incorrect, which to this date remains so! Hence, I think a reversion of the first paragraph will solve the issue. --Gerash77 01:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it was better worded and more neutral before. Let's put it back. --Zerotalk 02:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

What does unilaterly added mean  ? the changes were largely accepted by many users at the time Amoruso 07:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

You have managed to do it again. Wait for a consensus before going to an edit war. If you read your edits for late August and early September, you will see that you only succeeded to add the changes after persistent edit war. Even now that you have managed to keep the statement there, you can't accept that there is a dispute regarding to the statement. I will keep an eye on the article from now on, please stop your vandalism.--Gerash77 23:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Please don't accuse others of bad faith or vandalism when it's essentially the only thing you've contributed to this article. If you wanted to maintain some credibility, you would atleast have contributed to the article in a positive way like I and the other users have done instead of rv'ing and generic tags for your POV purposes. You obviously have no knowledge or interest of Jerusalem and your only motive seems to be to remove any mention of "capital" in Jerusalem article. That's disruptive behaviour and you should leave the article to those people knowledgable or interested about Jerusalem. This article is not a place to politically war edit like you've done. You'd notice that in contrast to you I also made considerable actual non political edits to this article and therefore it's you who is suspiciouslly acting of bad faith. Please refer to articles in your actual interest and expertise. Amoruso 09:17, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

NPOV: Who's trying to deislamize and dearabize Jerusalem by usinmg the sand box?

Robin Hood 1212 13:46, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about that user's edits, but that's exactly what I thought when reading the current intro. I am neither Arab nor Muslim, by the way, and I have a lot of sympathy for Israel, compared with for my own country (the US). However, regardless of that, this introduction is ridiculously poor. Not only is it offensively biased in one direction (and I'm not just talking about the capital dispute that is swept under the rug, but the wording of the whole intro). Aside from POV concerns, it has ridiculous facts (if the Old City of Jerusalem's claim to fame is Good Morning America stating it's a wonder of the world, then maybe this really shouldn't be mentioned at all. just silly), lots of over-specific information about land areas, and the citations are even MORE ridiculous- about 10 citations for the claim that Israel has the largest population in Israel. THIS IS NOT WHAT IS DISPUTED. Besides, all the citations basically say the same exact thing, and the ones from fringe news sources such as The Washington Times could certainly be removed in favor of the more credible sources, if a neutrality dispute was the reason for all those citations.

But anyway, whether Israel controls Jerusalem is not disputed. Whether Jerusalem is Israel's own official capital in all senses is not disputed. What is disputed is whether Israel has a right to ALL of Jerusalem as its "eternal capital", because that is the all or nothing choice they have given the international community. I am not trying to argue that Israel does not have this right, but the point is, in this case the vast majority of the world weighs it against the apparent right of others that Israel's right appears to be infringing upon and sides against Israel's determination that Jerusalem is its capital in the sense that Israel means (i.e. ALL of Jerusalem, NOT NEGOTIABLE).

It becomes problematic if a Wikipedia article exists to further the ideological agenda of a particular government or people, even though in many cases, and apparently here, it is naturally those exact people at the center of the issue who are most enthusiastic about contributing to the article and determining its slant. Now, the rest of the article appears great. But when it comes time to summarize it up at the top, the summary only reflects facts that paint the situation in a way favorable to one side, with meager token inclusions for "objectivity", and certain key facts being left out in favor of nebulous assertions and lots of utter trivia. Other even more key general facts about Jerusalem's various religious heritages and status as a holy city are also poorly expressed or shortchanged, out of incompetent editing rather than POV, I assume, while at the same time overly specific information about styles of Jewish and Muslim prayers somehow qualified for inclusion in the intro.

The point is, leaving a claim that Israel is Jerusalem's eternal capital unchallenged until the very end of the intro, is only the beginning. The intro is about as blatantly awful as anything I have seen in such a major wiki article- just compare this to the painstakingly worded God or Jesus or September 11 or whatever huge and contentious article may be out there. I expected this would be one of those, that I wouldn't even think of touching, and I was shocked that I obviously knew more about the subject than some of the people who have been editing this, even though I wouldn't claim to know very much. Oh yes, I did try to change it, but apparently it became too objective (or too long) for some people. But I looked in the history though a bit, and I saw that any changes to the pro-Israel bias in the intro seem to get magically reverted over time, as it seesaws back from accuracy to its natural biased state.

This is simply a POV intro would be immediately laughed off the page if it were submitted to a "proper" encyclopedia (from the US or anywhere, certainly even in Israel). I guess this is one case where the article (intro) will never be able to meet standards due to the emotional feelings involved and people's (mostly pro-Israel in this case it appears) inability to see things outside their own little framework. That is sad, but I suppose it pales in comparison with the sadness of the real life situations that would inspire such an inability to be objective.

It's still very surprising there isn't more dispute over this current intro (basically none for months, it seems) but I guess all the Arabs or Muslims, or Europeans, or basically anyone who isn't either a hardcore settler or an American ignorant of the whole conflict and just sticking up for their little friends who do their dirty work... I guess they must have given up when they realized the pro-Israeli contributors are greater in number on English Wikipedia and will determine the bias of this article. Good job with your little club and consensus, guys. 172.144.0.252 03:23, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't have time to comment about everything, but just this one thing - obviously, you haven't been working on Israel related articles for very long, otherwise you'd know - everything is in dispute. The population, for instance, is also problematic - something like half of the populous live in East Jerusalem - so can we include them in Israel's figures?
However, if there are several good sources, we can remove fringe ones. Anyway, please discuss changes before making them, otherwise things can get pretty heated around here... okedem 04:54, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Let me respond to some of these things.
  • First, about the capital; it's potentially problematic for the first sentence of an article. I feel a better wording would be Israel's seat of government as that is certainly undisputed. For someone who does not know the whole story, saying Jerusalem is the capital of Israel without qualification in the first sentence is confusing. I understand what it means and I'd even be inclined to say it's correct, but it's nevertheless confusing.
  • Yes, there are clearly some trivial facts in the intro. The Good Morning America item is one; the number of times Jerusalem is mentioned in certain books is another. Feel free to remove them now, but I'm personally going to work on the rest of the article first before tackling the creation of a spectacular intro. If an intro is supposed to sum up an article, I feel the article should be written first.
  • I have no idea why the size of Jerusalem needs so many references either.
Still, I would request that you not attack writers of the article. You raised some very good points in your comment, but there is no need to fling insults at those doing their best to improve it. Those insults – particularly in the last 2.5 paragraphs – doesn't help you one bit. -- tariqabjotu 04:58, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Again, on the capital thing. Find me a definition for capital according to which Jerusalem isn't Israel's capital. I truly tire of this. It's the capital. It doesn't need international recognition, nor does the location of embassies mean anything.
The dispute should be mentioned, certainly, but for all intents and purposes, it is the capital.
Please don't remove references. At most - place them in hidden comments, without changes their location. Saves trouble later on. okedem 18:18, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Um... were you responding to me? If so, let me point out that I said that I agree that Jerusalem is Israel's capital, but just think saying that upfront is misleading (whereas instead saying seat of government unqualified is perfectly fine). I'm not really a fan of the we've talked about this before, so don't challenge it approach, especially when that before is nearly three years ago.
About the last part, I have not removed any references from the article, but I don't see why that would be a problem. We do not need eight references for the largest city item. I'm not sure what trouble commenting out the references will save later on. -- tariqabjotu 21:21, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
First off, saying it's "the seat of government" sounds like an evasion, and is really incomplete - it's also the seat of parliament, supreme court, presidents quarters, etc. The word for its function is capital, nothing else.
I did not make myself clear, I'm afraid. I'm not saying "don't challenge it", not at all. I'm just saying I tire of it, because this argument repeats itself on a monthly basis (forget the link on the top - go through the archives of this talk page, and Israel's talk page).
Refs - unless it's a really fringe source - we shouldn't delete it. Some sources might be challenged, others might go offline. If someone went to the trouble of finding sources, it's best to keep them. okedem 17:27, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
Here is a new replacement intro. Tell me if it is not more properly NPOV than what we had.
Jerusalem (Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם (help·info), Yerushaláyim or Yerushalaim; Arabic: القُدس (help·info), al-Quds ("the Holy"))[2] is an ancient Middle Eastern city that is Israel's national capital[3] and has pivotal importance to the world's major Abrahamic religions, among them Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Jerusalem is the largest city in Israel,[4] with a population of 724,000 (as of May 24, 2006[5]). Jerusalem is landlocked, on the watershed between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea, residing at elevations between 650 and 840 metres (approximately 2000-2500 feet) and on a total area of 123 km2 (47 mi2).[6] The city is situated southeast of Tel Aviv, south of Ramallah, southwest of Jericho, and north of Bethlehem. Politically, Jerusalem neighbours the Palestinian Territories of the West Bank, which Israelis know as Judea and Samaria, a disputed region under Israeli control since 1967.
Since approximately the 10th century BCE, Jerusalem has been the holiest city in Judaism and the spiritual homeland of the Jewish people, appearing at least 700 times in the Hebrew Bible.[7] According to the Gospels and the New Testament, Jesus died, rose from the dead and will return again to Jerusalem, giving the city great importance to many denominations of Christianity. Jerusalem is generally regarded as the third holiest site in Islam, and it is narrated in orthodox Muslim sources to be the destination of Muhammad's miraculous journey, as well as the original qibla (direction of prayer) for Muslims. Historically, Crusades have been fought between Christians and Muslims for control of the city and the surrounding "Holy Land", and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is said to commemorate the site of Jesus' crucifixion. Today, Jerusalem's most important and contested landmarks are the Western Wall (Wailing Wall) of the Temple Mount for Jews, and the Al-Aqsa Mosque and Dome of the Rock for Muslims.
Jerusalem currently has a large Jewish majority, but the city represents a wide range of national, religious, and socioeconomic groups. The section called the Old City is a UNESCO World Heritage Site.[8] Barely one kilometer square,[9] it is surrounded by walls and consists of four quarters: the Armenian, Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Quarters. Surrounding the Old City are modern areas. The civic and cultural centre of modern Israel in western Jerusalem stretches toward the country's other urban areas to the west, while Palestinian areas dominate to the north, east and south of the Old City, with many citizens of Israel as well. However, despite or because of the diverse population, Jerusalem remains central to the Arab-Israeli conflict. Israel's annexation of the primarily Arab neighbourhoods known as East Jerusalem is particularly controversial, as Jerusalem has been claimed by Palestinians as the capital for a future Palestinian state. Thus, the status of united Jerusalem as Israel's "eternal capital" is not widely recognised by the international community, and most countries locate their embassies in Tel Aviv.
The current mayor of Jerusalem is Uri Lupolianski, the first Haredi Jew ever to hold this position.


Here is the OLD one for comparison:
it's this version
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jerusalem&oldid=102474689
Jerusalem (Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם (help·info), Yerushaláyim or Yerushalaim; Arabic: القُدس (help·info), al-Quds ("the Holy"))[10] is Israel's largest city[11] and national capital, with a population of 724,000 (as of May 24, 2006[5]). An ancient Middle Eastern city on the watershed between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea, Jerusalem resides at elevations between 650 and 840 metres (approximately 2000-2500 feet) and on a total area of 123 km2 (47 mi2).[12] The city is situated southeast of Tel Aviv, south of Ramallah, southwest of Jericho, and north of Bethlehem.
Jerusalem has a large Jewish majority, but the city still represents a wide range of national, religious, and socioeconomic groups. Jerusalem is the holiest city in Judaism (and has been since approximately the 10th century BCE) and some denominations of Christianity (since the 5th century CE). Jewish religious law holds that prayers should be conducted facing the direction of the city and specifically in the direction of the Temple Mount.[13] Jerusalem is generally revered by Muslims as the location of al-Aqsa Mosque, generally regarded as the "third holiest site in Islam", and the original qibla (direction of prayer), prior to Mecca. Jerusalem appears in the Hebrew Bible 669 times, while "Zion" (which usually means Jerusalem, although sometimes the Land of Israel) appears 154 times.[14] Alternatively, the New Testament mentions "Jerusalem" 154 times and "Zion" seven times. No reference to the city is found in the Qur'an.
The section called the Old City (barely one square kilometer[15]) is surrounded by walls and consists of four quarters: the Armenian, Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Quarters. The Old City was named by the American television show Good Morning America and newspaper USA Today as one of the "New Seven Wonders of the World" in 2006.[16] However, despite the diverse, heterogeneous presence, Jerusalem remains central to the Arab-Israeli conflict. The status of united Jerusalem as Israel's capital is not universally recognised by the international community and Israel's annexation of East Jerusalem is particularly controversial. East Jerusalem has been claimed by Palestinians as the desired capital for a future Palestinian state.
The current Israeli mayor of Jerusalem is Uri Lupolianski, the first Haredi Jew ever to hold this position.

172.144.0.252 15:02, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm fine with your suggestion. One point - I don't know if most countries base their embassies in Tel Aviv. Many have embassies in other cities, like Herzlia. Unless we can find a source, we'd better just say - "...in other cities, like Tel Aviv." okedem 21:37, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I've taken out some of the unnecessary wordiness, unsourced, POV, and circumlocutions, as well as political discussions that weren't actually about Jerusalem. By the way, if both the New York Times and Microsoft Encarta can call Jerusalem "Israel's largest city", then so can we. If you don't like my cleanup, we can certainly return to the original consensus introduction instead. Jayjg (talk) 22:10, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Um, was that directed at me? Because I never took out anything about Jerusalem being Israel's largest city, I just put it in the second sentence to focus the first one on it being Israel's capital, and on the religious significance, both of which I think we could all agree are the most important facts about Jerusalem- and having the three religions mentioned in the first sentence, plus calling it "a Middle Eastern city which is Israel's capital", seems like it may help to keep a feeling of objectivity without seeming to privilege one side. Maybe. and then of course the special Jewish significance must be noted first, in the next para that talks about the significance to religions.
No one can deny that it is Israel's capital, as your side keeps pointing out. In the same way no one can deny the West Bank is under Israeli control. Whether you choose to say Jerusalem is "the largest city IN ISRAEL", or that "Palestinian territories are under Israeli OCCUPATION"... those words are slightly inflammatory despite in both cases being quite true on their face, so it's a different story depending on viewpoint. I just found out in researching this that the government of Israel has refused to ever specify the borders of Jerusalem! So there is not even any way for someone to object to the borders. they are also intentionally being ambiguous with the "security barrier"/"apartheid wall" and where they choose to construct that, whether in or out of the "green line".
so to say Jerusalem is "in" Israel in the very first sentence intro==could appear to be pushing a certain idea, that whatever idea anyone has about Jerusalem, the absolute most important thing is that it (by extension, all of it, however the Israeli government chooses to define it, if ever) is "in" Israel. this would certainly be highly POV and unlikely to find agreement by the vast majority of earth's population.
It also seemed slightly like the population stuff, along with the reference to how many times Jerusalem is named in various religions' holy books, had a strong bias with the way whoever wrote the previous version had been presenting it (with the punchline being that Jerusalem is never in the Quran- hmm, so why mention it?). But no, I didn't delete the population thing. The population and the fact that it's the largest city in Israel is still duly noted in the second line. The only sources I deleted were for things that already had 10 OTHER MORE REPUTABLE SOURCES cited saying the same thing. Whoever made these sources was actually very clever. I think they were trying not to find real sources for contentious stuff but to make the intro so unwieldy and unreadable to an editor that they would not be able to figure out how to remove the POV assertions in it, and they succeeded... for a while.
And whatever "consensus" resulted in that atrocity of a former introduction I posted for comparison, was probably the consensus of the few biased people who hadn't given up on the article. If you want to revert it, maybe you should go back much further in time. But I see it's still the same version, so I don't know if your owrk was reverted or what. 172.144.0.252 00:29, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't have a "side", the writing is better in this version, the sources say it's Israel's largest city, this article is about Jerusalem not the status of the West Bank (and people know what the West Bank is anyway), the religious stuff should not be mentioned twice in the same lead, and you messed up the grammar around the quarters. The next time I go back to the consensus version. I'm willing to compromise, but you can't keep POVing this intro. Jayjg (talk) 00:56, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I think the second paragraph could really do better in the Religious significance section, which is really struggling at the moment. -- tariqabjotu 02:01, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Sources (January 2007)

I removed three more sources – the ones that were other encyclopedias. They are, for the most part, doing the same thing we are (compiling information) so, although they are correct, it would be better to use other sources, if possible. Three sources still exist so I thought removing the encyclopedia sources was fine; others could also easily be found if there is a dire need for more. In regards to the footnote I added, I simply copied what was stated in the footnote in the Israel article; I assumed that wording got consensus there at some point. Either way, in my opinion, it summarizes the situation well while not dodging the word capital which seems to be a non-negotiable. -- tariqabjotu 04:45, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Please don't remove sources; in contentious articles more sources are always required, never fewer. Contrary to the suspicions of the IP editor above, extra sources are always needed for this kind of thing because otherwise people start removing simple facts from articles because they contradict their own political biases. I've allowed a couple of sources to be deleted, but that's the limit. Jayjg (talk) 04:56, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
But encyclopedias are tertiary sources. Tertiary sources can be used for names, spellings, locations, dates and dimensions. Articles signed by experts should be regarded as more reliable than unsigned articles. Unsigned articles should not be used to support any controversial or complex points. Secondary sources should be given priority over tertiary ones. So, essentially we're using three tertiary sources to help support a controversial point, even though there are more than enough secondary sources available. If you want six sources, get six good sources; resorting to three encyclopedias suggests we were having trouble finding enough sources to back our point. Please also respond to my comment about the footnote that you removed. -- tariqabjotu 05:11, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but that wording was changed, and not by consensus, less that two weeks ago. Before then it never said anything about unsigned articles not being "used to support any controversial or complex points", and specifically mentioned Encylopedia Brittanica as a reliable source. I've restored the original wording. If you want to add the other footnote, please feel free to, but please don't combine it with a complex edit removing other footnotes. Jayjg (talk) 20:39, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
If you want to say I didn't mean to remove that part, just say that. Don't make it sound as if there was some ulterior motive in making more than one change at a time. And don't make it sound as if it's a federal crime to revert only part of an edit. Sheesh. -- tariqabjotu 00:25, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Capital, "largest city" out of intro

The question of which city is Israel's largest is, imo, spectacularly uninteresting. However, a google search for "largest city Tel-Aviv" (including the quotes) will find a large number of contrary claims, many satisfying the usual criteria for "reliable source". The point is that the number of citations is not the issue. Rather than citing a long list of sources that could easily be countered by an equally long list of disagreeing sources, the footnote should clearly state what definition of "largest" is being used and link to the official statistics that establish it. --Zerotalk 06:49, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Zero0000's comment, though I would add that a claim so obviously questionable and so unessential to the definition and introduction of Jerusalem probably should not be part of the first sentence of the article. Palmiro | Talk 19:17, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Why don't you find some reliable, non-partisan sources that say that some other city is actually Israel's largest city? Then we can talk. Jayjg (talk) 20:39, 26 January 2007 (UTC)


Source [20] To Rule Jerusalem by Richard D. Hecht, Roger Friedland , 2000, University of California Press

In 1967, Tel Aviv was the largest city in Israel. By 1987, more Jews lived in Jerusalem than the toral population of Tel Aviv. Jerusalem had become Israel's premier city.

The Arab population of East Jerusalem, which had stagnated under Jordanian rule, doubleed during these first two decades of Israeli administration. Whereas the city's Jewish population is fed by continous streams of immigrants. Arab population growth has depended almost exclusively on natural increase. The Israeli goverment makes it very difficult for Palestinians who live on what most Israelis consider to be "occupied" territories, even if they own property in Jerusalem proper, to migrate into the city. According to Israeli law, a Palestinian from the West Bank is not allowed even to stay overnight in Jerusalem without formal permission. Despite this prohibition, the economic lure of Jerusalem-both jobs and health, insurance, and educational benefits that come with residence - has been such that thousands of West Bank Palestinians maintain an illegal residence in Jerusalem....

128.32.48.91 21:05, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, the source you've quoted supports the point that Jerusalem is Israel's largest city, and has been so since 1987. Thank you. Jayjg (talk) 21:13, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
You're welcome! :) 128.32.38.119 21:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I'm confused. First, the largest city fact is controversial so we need as many sources as possible. Now, it's completely uncontroversial so there's no need to move it out of the first sentence. Which is it? Would it be too much to reword the first paragraph to something along the lines of:

Jerusalem (Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם (help·info), Yerushaláyim or Yerushalaim; Arabic: القُدس (help·info), al-Quds ("the Holy"))[17] is a landlocked Middle Eastern city located in an enclave of the West Bank between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea. Jerusalem is Israel's national capital,[18] although its status as such has been disputed by the United Nations and much of the international community since the annexation of East Jerusalem into Israel. With a population of approximately 724,000[5] and an area totaling 123 km2 (47 mi2), Jerusalem is also Israel's largest city in both population and area.[19]

(I omitted the information about elevation and proximity to other cities because that seems more relevant in the #Physical geography section). -- tariqabjotu 00:25, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
You're misstating the issue; it is a simple fact that Jerusalem is Israel's largest city, as attested by many reliable sources. However, that doesn't mean that it still isn't controversial; indeed, even the simplest facts about Israel are contested by partisans on a daily basis. The statement that Jerusalem was Israel's largest city was originally simply in the article; then an IP editor started editing this and other articles solely for the purpose of insisting that Tel Aviv was Israel's largest city, not Jerusalem. This went on for weeks and weeks; thus, in the end, a large number of high-quality sources had to be brought to point out that amongst non-partisan reliable sources this was seen as a simple fact, regardless of the polemical political bias individual editors wished to insert into the subject. As for your intro, it is incorrect; Jerusalem has served as Israel's capital for much longer than that. Jayjg (talk) 03:11, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
As for your intro, it is incorrect; Jerusalem has served as Israel's capital for much longer than that. I know it has been the capital for over half a century, but I said the unified Jerusalem. Nevertheless, I have rephrased the sentence...

Jerusalem is Israel's national capital,[20] although its status as such has been disputed by the United Nations and much of the international community since the annexation of East Jerusalem into Israel.

...to clarify what I meant (I think it sounds better this way anyway). Now, can you get around to addressing the concept of moving the capital and largest city facts out of the first sentence? -- tariqabjotu 03:59, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Well, it's not irredeemable, but it seems that instead of addressing what are the typically most relevant facts about a city, instead it tries to push some political POV right up front. The article on Shanghai says Shanghai (Chinese: 上海; pinyin: Shànghǎi (help·info); Wu (Long-short): Zånhae; Shanghainese (IPA): [zɑ̃'he]), situated on the banks of the Yangtze River Delta in East China, is the largest city of the People's Republic of China and the eighth largest in the world. The article on Moscow says Moscow (Russian: Москва́, Romanized: Moskva, IPA: [mʌsk'va] (help·info)) is the capital of Russia and the country's principal political, economic, financial, educational, and transportation center, located on the Moskva River in the Central Federal District, in the European part of Russia. The name of the city is usually pronounced "Mos-koh" (rhyming with "toe") in British English and "Mos-kow" (rhyming with "now") in US English. The city's population of 10.4 million permanent inhabitants within the city boundaries [1] constitutes about 7% of the total Russian population. Likewise, it is the most populous city in Europe. New York City says New York City is the most populous city in the United States and one of the major global cities of the world. Jayjg (talk) 06:31, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

<-(removing indents) Would you accuse Encarta of pushing a political POV because they don't mention that it's the capital of Israel until the sixth sentence and even then, they note that Palestinians and the United Nations dispute the claim? Is Britannica pushing a political point-of-view as well because they neglect to mention the capital fact upfront? Do you also blame Britannica for noting that the annexation of East Jerusalem is what makes Jerusalem the largest city in Israel? I must have missed something in regards to your examples of Shanghai, Moscow, and New York. Has Moscow's status as the capital of Russia been rejected by the United Nations? Or has New York's position as the most populous city in the United States come under fire? We can still mention that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel without saying that in the first sentence (like it does in my example) and we call say that Jerusalem is the largest city in Israel (as it does in the example). However, we would be doing readers a great disservice if we forced them to look at the footnote or a couple paragraphs later for a fact that is just as important and relevant and very easy to note (that the annexation of East Jerusalem has caused the capital fact to be disputed and resulted in Jerusalem being Israel's largest city). And to be honest, relegating to a footnote or a subsequent paragraph a short mention of the dispute would be itself a push of a political point-of-view. -- tariqabjotu 14:25, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Oddly enough, Britannica Concise states Jerusalem is the capital of Israel right at the top of its article. Also, none of those encyclopedias seem to push the political controversy into the second sentence. In addition, it wasn't the annexation of East Jerusalem that cause Jerusalem to be the largest Israeli city, but rather the huge growth in the Jewish population there. And, while I recognize that there is a controversy about Jerusalem being Israel's capital, where is the "controversy" about Jerusalem being Israel's largest city, except in the minds of Wikipedia editors? Jayjg (talk) 18:25, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Oddly enough, Britannica Concise states Jerusalem is the capital of Israel right at the top of its article. And that makes perfect sense for an article that's barely a paragraph long. Nevertheless, it says (see below), an obvious allusion to the note about the controversy in the subsequent paragraph. If it weren't for East Jerusalem's population, Tel Aviv would be Israel's most populous city (and perhaps largest in area? unsure). And although Encarta does not mention the controversy in the second sentence, it is mentioned in the sixth – at the same time the capital designation is mentioned. The distance between our mention of the capital and the controversy is large and although it is mentioned in the footnote, it could very easily fit in the text like it was prior to September 2006. [W]here is the "controversy" about Jerusalem being Israel's largest city, except in the minds of Wikipedia editors? My guess comes in the fact that many do not see the annexation as legitimate, but this controversy is not as significant as the one in regards to the capital. -- tariqabjotu 19:08, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Hey, Tariqabjotu. I think your proposed intro there might be considered beyond the pale to most here because it relegates the Israeli-ness of Jerusalem to sounding like a secondary point. But I noticed the article has since been edited again, to remove the changes I made to be more objective, and is blatantly POV at the moment. Take a look at the current editor's efforts to establish the number of times "Jerusalem" and (!) "Zion" are mentioned in different Holy Books and how they're never mentioned in the Quran as a way of, well, de-Arabizing and de-Islamizing Jerusalem. Even the most hardcore pro-Israeli editors should notice this kind of stuff is ridiculous for an intro.
I am done here, it's too contentious and I wouldn't want to do much to articles like this without just an IP without signing-up. I think my intro was much better than what we have now, though, even if it could also have been improved.
I also think the solution to this "political" problem is to mention Jerusalem's "pivotally important" status for three major religions in the very first sentence, along with its status as Israel's capital, and then to put information about it being the largest city in Israel in the NEXT sentence. This dodges the question of West Bank/Palestinians/etc (which some feel is irrelevant, just like they feel the people are irrelevant) but does include Islam right there with Judaism and Xtianity, reducing the possibility of edit wars. It also makes sense for encylopedic grounds regardless of being politically correct, since the religious significance of Jerusalem is probably the MOST important thing about it from a WORLDWIDE VIEW. The fact that it's a capital is a fact that must be mentioned first (and qualified later, perhaps). But the info about the size of the city is not quite as important, unless someone has a certain interest in ramming the Israeli-ness of Jerusalem down people's throats in the first sentence. Not all Jews are Israelis either, so Jerusalem's status as an important city for Jews worldwide (not to mention Christians and Muslims) is also being sold short by not mentioning religion early. imo. The only reason Jerusalem is much of a city today at all is basically for religious reasons! That's why Zionists went there at first, even if they were secular and the importance was just symbolic. I am not a religious person though, it's just it seems that is the main way people view Jerusalem, including a lot of those who live there, and would be appropriate for line #1.
Keep up the watching of this page Tariqa to make sure the NPOV warning stays there until the intro changes please. 172.144.0.252 18:18, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

A new proposal

I would still like to see the current controversy over the city put closer to the capital fact, but if the RfC consensus appears to go the other way, I'll live with it. In the event (wishful thinking?) this article becomes a featured article and gets set for an appearance on the Main Page, a different one-paragraph summary different from the first paragraph of the article can be used (one, I hope, mentions the current status of the city in some way). But that's for another day. Currently, there are seriously trivial facts that appear in the intro. As a result, here is a suggestion:

Jerusalem (Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם (help·info), Yerushaláyim or Yerushalaim; Arabic: القُدس (help·info), al-Quds ("the Holy"))[21] is Israel's capital[22] and largest city both in population[23] and area, with a population of approximately 724,000 (as of 2006[5]) and an area totaling 123 km2 (47 mi2).[24]

Located in an enclave of the West Bank between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea, Jerusalem is considered a holy city in three major religions – Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Jerusalem has been the holiest city in Judaism and the spiritual homeland of the Jewish people since the 10th century BCE. The city is often regarded as the third-holiest in Islam and it contains a number of significant and ancient Christian landmarks. Thus, while the city has a large Jewish majority, a wide range of national, religious, and socioeconomic groups are represented. The section called the Old City is a UNESCO World Heritage Site[25] consisting of four ethnic and religious divisions – the Armenian, Christian, Jewish, and Muslim Quarters. Barely one kilometer square,[26] the Old City is home to several of Jerusalem's most important and contested religious sites, including the Western Wall and Temple Mount for Jews and the Dome of the Rock and al-Aqsa Mosque for Muslims.

Surrounding the Old City are more modern areas of Jerusalem. The civic and cultural centre of modern Israel in western Jerusalem stretches toward the country's other urban areas to the west, while majority Palestinian areas dominate the north, east and south of the Old City. Today, Jerusalem remains central to the Arab-Israeli conflict; Israel's annexation of the primarily Arab neighbourhoods known as East Jerusalem is particularly controversial, as Jerusalem has been claimed by Palestinians as the capital for a future Palestinian state. Thus, the status of united Jerusalem as Israel's "eternal capital" is not widely recognised by the international community, and most countries locate their embassies in Tel Aviv.

Aside from the capital fact, there really is nothing controversial about this article. The vast majority of the article should be no problem. Once I get the time back, I'll continue adding references and improving the rest of the article. -- tariqabjotu 20:39, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I made a couple of changes for better wording and accuracy; it doesn't look bad now. Jayjg (talk) 20:55, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Regarding the "enclave of the West Bank", the wording implies a relationship with the West Bank that is unjustified. The notion of a "West Bank" is recent, and Jerusalem was never considered part of it; see Image:1947PartitionPlan.PNG. And in any event, Jerusalem is unquestionably located on the Judean Mountains. Jayjg (talk) 04:37, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
The word "enclave" is actually incorrect for two different reasons. In order for a place to be an "enclave", it must be a part of a larger political unit, and it must be physically separated from that larger unit by territory of another unit. (See Enclave and exclave; the issue of which of those two terms would properly apply here (or both) would be an interesting one, except that neither applies.) As Jay points out, Jerusalem is not part of a larger political entity, the West Bank. (And that is leaving aside the fact that it is really part of Israel, since Israel controls all of it, contains part of it within its "border" and has annexed the remainder of it; but since it is contiguous with Israel, it is not an enclave/exclave of Israel either.) Therefore it does not satisfy the "political" aspect of being an enclave/exclave. As for the "physical" aspect, since Jerusalem borders on the West Bank (wherever exactly that border may be), and therefore there is no physical separation, and therefore cannot be an enclave/exclave for that reason as well. 6SJ7 21:01, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
According to dictionary.com, an enclave is a country, or esp., an outlying portion of a country, entirely or mostly surrounded by the territory of another country. The first sentence of the enclave and exclave article reflects the use of the word mostly. If that was not intended (or water was meant as the remaining portion) the article should be clarified. Regardless, this is no longer relevant for this article; the use of the Judean Mountains to designate the location is sufficient for me as well and no one else has appeared to want to re-insert the enclave piece. -- tariqabjotu 22:30, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that the only controversial issue is Jerusalem's status as capital. In archeological circles, the claim that Jerusalem has been the spiritual center of Judaism since the 10th century would be an extreme position at best. The 10th century date is a religious belief, and the references cited are religious, as one would expect. For example, To Rule Jerusalem was written by two Professors of Religous Studies.

The 10th century date is important, but in order to be NPOV, it must be mentioned in the correct context. For example, the sentence:

Jerusalem has been the holiest city in Judaism and the spiritual center of the Jewish people since the 10th century BCE.

could be rewritten as:

According to biblical sources, Jerusalem has been the holiest city in Judaism and the spiritual center of the Jewish people since the 10th century BCE.

EllenS 15:08, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

No, that makes it seem as though the whole "holiest city" thing is only according to biblical sources. The sentence is fine the way it is, and there are enough references for that. The Jewish connection to Jerusalem is well documented in non-biblical sources, and the kingdom of Judah has some fine archaeological evidence. If we went by biblical sources alone, we'd say it was something like the 11th century BC (David). okedem 15:34, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
The sentence is in no way fine the way it is. It is clearly POV and needs to be altered. If you have non-biblical sources, fine. But not one of the references used actually qualifies as NPOV. Outside of the Biblical sources, the one and only archeological find that even comes close is the Tel Dan Stele, which itself is controversial. And even for those of us who feel the stele is genuine, it fails to provide evidence that backs the claim that Jerusalem was the spiritual center of Judaism in the 10 century BC.
I would hate to tag an otherwise well done artical with a POV tag. However if the references to this claim are not qualified, I will have no choice. EllenS 01:13, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
As noted below, I don't believe the large number of references is the appropriate remedy. Fewer supporting references and a note similar to the one under footnote 21 could suffice. -- tariqabjotu 16:17, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
It's not the number of references, but their presentation as NPOV sources. They are largely religion based and all are POV. As long as the statements are qualified, I have no problem with the sources. EllenS 01:13, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
All sources are POV. The idea that there such a thing as an "NPOV" source isn't consistent with Wikipedia's WP:NPOV policy. Wikipedia requires representing all significant points of view on the subject. If the issue is that an editor disagrees with the source it would be best to say so explicitly. In this case if we are asking if Jerusalem is the "holiest city", this is an essentially religious claim and I'm not sure if there could be any other reliable source then religious sources. If the question is whether it was the spiritual center of the Bible in the 10th century BCE, this is both a religious and an historical claim. "According to the Bible" could be used to present the religious POV involved. Best, --Shirahadasha 02:10, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, Shirahadasha, for clarifying the point I was trying to express. It is the historical, not the religious aspect that is questionable. Again, with the proper qualification, there is nothing wrong with the references. EllenS 02:31, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
What makes you think the sources in question are "largely religion based"? Jayjg (talk) 04:02, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I have added a footnote regarding the Biblical accounts (and I have also moved a few other non-references out of the References section as there was some complex linking that appeared to work better this way). I hope this is sufficient. -- tariqabjotu 05:33, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but the changes are not sufficient. The statements which reference the 10th century date need to be qualified as both Shirahadasha and I have suggested.EllenS 13:32, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure what more you're asking for; "according to the Bible" was added in the footnote. In the same manner we shouldn't add the lengthy capital footnote to the body of the article, we shouldn't be adding the footnote regarding Biblical sources to the article (as the time period is a generally-accepted historical fact). There's more detail under #History. I also believe the {{POV}} template for this one bit is, at best, an exaggeration. -- tariqabjotu 15:15, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Qualified in what way? Can you be explicit, and refer back to the sources in question for any claims you make? Jayjg (talk) 16:47, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
What is this bit about "not being widely recognized"? What kind of nonsense is that? I don't see any such thing regarding other capitals around the world and it is out of place here.

--Gilabrand 17:33, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

That's because Jerusalem is unique in its regard as "not being widely recognized" as the capital of Israel. -- tariqabjotu 20:55, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

RfC

Should the facts about Jerusalem being Israel's largest city and capital be moved out of the first sentence of the article and into later on in the first paragraph so that more detail can be added? (see #Capital, "largest city" out of intro) 14:26, 28 January 2007 (UTC)


Of course not! Jerusalem IS mainly Israel's largest city and capital, crisis.

Maybe we'll declare Jerusalem as the capital of the state of palestine, nothing more and nothig less, and put it to an end??

This has become ridicules... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.90.167.95 (talk • contribs)


The placement is fine where it is. Blueboar 16:41, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
To 194.90.167.95 (talk · contribs), no one has suggested calling Jerusalem the capital of Palestine or even saying the facts are wrong. The reasoning behind the suggestion is to add some information currently only present in the footnotes without making the first sentence excessively long. For those of you (understandably) unwilling to look through the entire #Capital, "largest city" out of intro section, the only alternative to the current version put on the table thus far is:

Jerusalem (Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם (help·info), Yerushaláyim or Yerushalaim; Arabic: القُدس (help·info), al-Quds ("the Holy"))[27] is a landlocked Middle Eastern city located in an enclave of the West Bank between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea. Jerusalem is Israel's national capital,[28] although its status as such has been disputed by the United Nations and much of the international community since the annexation of East Jerusalem into Israel. With a population of approximately 724,000[5] and an area totaling 123 km2 (47 mi2), Jerusalem is also Israel's largest city in both population and area.[29]

Nothing about Palestine, and the text says Jerusalem is Israel's national capital. For some arguments already presented for or against this type of rephrasing, see the whole talk page section. -- tariqabjotu 17:05, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Looking at articles on other capital cities (see: London, Washington D.C., Amman, and Cairo just to name a few) a statement that the city in question is the capital of its country seems to always come in the first sentence. Thus, I see no need to change the placement in this article. Blueboar 18:30, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
But Jerusalem is unique in that its status as capital is rejected by much of the international community. -- tariqabjotu 19:10, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
To me that does not affect the placement of the sentence. The convention is that such information goes in the first sentence. I suppose if one had to get ultra picky and ultra NPOV, you could say something along the line of: "Jerusalem is Israel's capital city, although that status is questioned by [names of specific countries or groups that question its status]. It is Israel's largest city both in ...." Out of curiosity... What city does this "much of the international community" say IS the capital of Israel? (and what constitues "much"). Blueboar 02:51, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
You're saying "much of the international community" as if this is a spurious claim. By much of the international community, it is meant the majority of countries; that [names of specific countries or groups that question its status] piece would get quite long. Nearly every country has complied with United Nations Security Council Resolution 478 as no country currently has an embassy in Jerusalem (most have been moved to Tel Aviv). However, there is no way really to force Israel to stop using Jerusalem as its capital so it still is so; the status as such has just been rejected. Take a look at the last sentence of the current intro. This is not something I just made up as you make it sound; that kind of language has existed in the intro for awhile, just in a different location. See also: Positions on Jerusalem. -- tariqabjotu 03:58, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Not to fuel the fire, but the UN also calls the entire Middle East "Southwest Asia", which no one uses popularly. I also would venture to say that none of the natives of the region would consider themselves Asian, either. In the same vein, it might be better to encompass all the POVs, popular, official and otherwise, but do it in two sentences, not one. It's clearly Israel's largest city. Set that on its own, and then address the capital issue in the next sentence. MSJapan 04:48, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
Tariqabjotu - I am sure you know the details about Jerusalem's status far better than I... and I don't really want to debate the issue with you. I came here because you posted a RFC. I am sorry that my comments do not fit the answer you obviously wanted to hear.
From your comments, it seems that the real issue here is "Should the article say that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel?" This is a vastly different question, and not what was asked at the RfC. There, the assumption was that the statement was uncontested, and the only question was "Where should we put the statement". I gave you my opinion, and the reasoning behind it. Assuming that the article is going to continue to bluntly state "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel", I feel that the statement should go in the first sentence... so that it conforms to other articles on capital cities. That's my opinion... Take it or leave it as you wish. Alternatives are: 1) Say that Jerusalem is the capital according to Israel, but not according to others (you can figure out the wording ... but I would still put that info in the first sentence) 2) DO NOT say that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. 3) Delete the RfC and do what you want.
Please do not bother to reply, or to put additional comments on my talk page. I have given you my opinion and now I'm done. Good luck with this article. Blueboar 14:16, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
You don't need to be very knowledgeable about the status of Jerusalem as the capital (and I really can't say the same), but your admission is precisely why I responded. I'm not trying to beat you into agreeing with me; I clearly said on your talk page that if you understood the question, there was no need to do anything. But you continued the discussion, which is entirely reasonable because RfCs are not just a solicitation of opinions without discussion. From your latest statement to which I replied, it seemed as if you were not aware of the controversy surrounding the city. So, why wouldn't I explain it to you? (It's in the article footnote #3 but, naturally, many people assume they're just references and nothing real important). In fact, you ended your comment with two questions. And so I answered your questions. I feel it is the obligation of anyone involved in this article to ensure that those responding to the RfC have some knowledge of the controversy surrounding the city. With any RfC in fact, it is expected that those responding either have some knowledge of the dispute or at least are willing to look at the appropriate section(s) (which was linked in the original question) to gather the requisite knowledge. If the opposition feels anyone was misinformed, they are free to chime in. And, no the question is not "Should the article say that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel?" as I tried to clarify when I responded to the IP; no one (at least recently) has suggested saying it's not. You say you weren't going to respond any more, but do whatever you please; this is a discussion and not a straw poll. -- tariqabjotu 16:37, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

The first sentence absolutely should say that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, because it is, and because it is one of the facts about the city that is so significant that it needs to be in the intro. (Or to paraphrase what someone else said, "convention" on Wikipedia is that the fact that a city is a national capital receives prominent mention in the intro.) The controversy over Jerusalem's status and the reaction of the UN and other countries is amply covered (perhaps more than amply covered) in this article and others. 6SJ7 20:40, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

It should be mentioned earlier on that is not accepted de jure as the capital of Israel by most countries. As it is now, omitting this fact while rambling about stuff like "spiritual homeland of the Jewish people since the 10th century BCE." it just looks poor. Of course this stuff deserves a prominent place in the article, but the City's legal status in the eyes of the world is a hard fact and should be there already in the first paragraph. "The status of Jerusalem as capital of Israel is disputed by many countries." pertn 13:18, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I would have to agree with 6SJ7 on this point. Lets keep in mind that this formulation is the product of a long-argued discussion, and so we should not be so eager to overturn this consensus. TewfikTalk 17:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Suggestion (see FAC discussion)

We currently have:

Today, Jerusalem remains central to the Arab-Israeli conflict; Israel's annexation of the primarily Arab neighborhoods that form East Jerusalem has been particularly controversial, as Jerusalem has been claimed by Palestinians as the capital for a future Palestinian state. Thus, the status of united Jerusalem as Israel's "eternal capital"[30][31] is not widely recognized by the international community, and most countries locate their embassies in Tel Aviv.

My suggestion is to rewrite this into (changes underlined):

Today, Jerusalem remains central to the Arab-Israeli conflict as a great part of its territory is in the occupied territory of West Bank; Israel's annexation of the primarily Arab neighborhoods that form East Jerusalem has been particularly controversial, as Jerusalem has been claimed by Palestinians as the capital for a future Palestinian state. Thus, the status of united Jerusalem as Israel's "eternal capital"[32][31] is not widely recognized by the international community, and most countries locate their embassies in Tel Aviv.

My rationale is to make it more explicit that a part of the city's territory is in a disputed area, and that Israel has formalised its position in the pertinent law. International criticism of Israel's position is covered by the link to Positions on Jerusalem. Kosebamse 13:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure we really need to go into much more detail in the lead about the present conflict (it seems like recentism) but I believe you have a decent re-wording. However, I believe the semi-colon should be changed to a period (since the sentence has gotten much longer). Additionally, I'd reword the first sentence to remove ambiguity (note how territory is used twice and the use of great). Perhaps something like...
...as a large portion of the city is in the West Bank, an occupied territory.
Furthermore, the sentence might be able to do without the occupied territory of as it's just the lead. -- tariqabjotu 13:32, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree with your points and would be happy to see the phrase introduced into the article in the form that you suggest. Kosebamse 13:36, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Never mind; a few extra words isn't a big deal. I re-worded my previous suggestion so as not to give the impression that only part of the West Bank is an occupied territory. -- tariqabjotu 13:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
Fine with me, I would prefer not to change the article myself because I have criticised it on FAC. Would you like to do it?Kosebamse 13:49, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't think there's anything wrong with someone objecting to an FAC and also making a change. I was thinking of waiting for okedem to chime in, but this is not a real dramatic change. So, I went ahead and did it. If okedem has something to say about the matter, he can comment when he gets back on Wikipedia. -- tariqabjotu 14:09, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
I fine with it. okedem 14:20, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Compromise

Idea: we can make the beginning less divisive by moving up "Jerusalem has been claimed by Palestinians as the capital for a future Palestinian state" to be second sentence in the first paragraph. (Re: discussion inWikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Jerusalem) nadav 11:02, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

I could agree to that. Depends if this would be the end of it, or if other concerns would be raised. okedem 11:56, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and there shouldn't be given undue weight to "claims", definitely not in the beginning. Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Amoruso 11:58, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
So you prefer not getting FA, if it comes to that?? The weight given these "claims" is not undue if the claims are strong enough to prevent the article's promotion. nadav 12:18, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Amoruso - the crystal ball point would fit if we were to say "Jerusalem is... and the future capital of a Palestinian State". However, the suggestion is to mention the claim - they're making this claim today, not in the future, thus - no crystal ball.
The claim is a major issue in Jerusalem, and, as a compromise, I think we can place it after the first sentence (though I prefer its current location). I can agree to this as a compromise, not as a basis for further changes to the lead. If there are more suggestions - let's review them now. okedem 12:45, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm okay with the idea, but I believe that we should instead move up the piece about the UN resolution and the embassies not being located in the city. That seems more pertinent and current. I believe we have been dancing around the issue of the "capital" on its own in the lead for so long, but it's time we must do something; there have been too many complaints to ignore them. -- tariqabjotu 15:25, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
This may be an overload of particulars. Instead of starting off with the fine details, I think we should jump right to the heart of the matter: that the Palestinians would also like to see Jerusalem as their capital. The other facts are corollaries that, in my opinon, are well situated in their current position. nadav 00:05, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Also, I believe we need to ensure we have smooth transitions between paragraphs. We seem to have that at the moment, but suddenly interjecting with something about controversy of the city may seem out of place. -- tariqabjotu 15:30, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
Nadav, thank you for coming up with this; I think it's a good idea. I'll check the rest of the article later. Tony 22:08, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Tariqabjotu's point about the transition highlights for me the odd placement of this type of statement. When I object on the grounds of undue weight, I don't just mean in terms of competing POVs, but in terms of the recentist angle. It just doesn't seem appropriate to deal with anywhere other than where it is now. The brief mention of Israel in the first line is only warranted by convention, otherwise such a modern fact would also be out of place. I also want to make sure that the FA folk realise the amount of tedious discussion over a period of years that went into the extremely precise wording we now have. Cheers, TewfikTalk 03:32, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I have made a few changes, per the conversation here and per a few suggestions on the FAC. I basically moved the Palestinian state piece toward the front and added a few intermediary sentences to set up the concept created by the sentence and the subsequent paragraph. Presuming this doesn't get reverted outright, I hope some of you will reconsider your positions on the FAC. -- tariqabjotu 06:23, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I hope they'll help, they seem good to me... okedem 07:58, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Though I think that, if we're listing some of the inhabitants - why not list all - would be longer, but more complete: "its inhabitants have included Jebusites, Jews, Babylonians, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, Crusaders, Ottomans, and Israelis." (Otherwise, listing the Jesubites but not the Ottomans would seem strange - the ottomans held it for 400 years, of relatively modern history. The British held it for a short time, and only under a mandate for the Arabs and Jews, so they're not worth listing here). I know it's long, but at least it's inclusive... okedem 08:05, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Mostly it seems very good. What was the basis for the choice of nations you included as inhabitants? I am assuming it is the historical groups that had the largest populations living in the city? This may need to be clarified or sourced... nadav 09:46, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
My goodness; people need to chill. Not every paragraph, sentence, word, and letter has some hidden meaning. They're examples. Do whatever you want guys; I made a huge mistake thinking I could get this article featured without having every little bit analyzed to death. -- tariqabjotu 10:47, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I know this must be extremely frustrating to you. I understand, believe me. But I'm trying to avoid problems later, with people jumping up and down, yelling - "why isn't X listed?" and so on. The lead is always the most analyzed, and most people don't even bother reading anything else before expressing some opinion about the article. Trust me, better to just list them all now (I've listed them by order of their control of the city, not necessarily having a majority of inhabitants), and avoid problems later, even if it looks a bit worse. okedem 11:08, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Conversely, if we attempt to list every group that has lived in Jerusalem but miss one or two, someone is definitely going to complain. If you think the list you devised is truly exhaustive, go ahead and add it. However, I find that highly improbable (what about Europeans?). Regardless, I'm not married to the idea and I won't make a big ruckus either way. -- tariqabjotu 15:32, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Good point. Why do we want to list inhabitants, instead of just rulers? That'll be easier, since the rulers were pretty much only those I mentioned. (except for the British, and I explained why). okedem 15:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I dont find the current wording much of an improvement. The sentence "Today the city is governed by Israel but remains meaningful to Palestinians, who see it as the capital for a future Palestinian state" seems very general. Since I objected to this intro, i'll go ahead and make my own suggestion on how to handle the capital issue.
Jerusalem (Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם (help·info), Yerushaláyim or Yerushalaim; Arabic: القُدس (help·info), al-Quds)[ii] is located in the Judean Mountains between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea about 50 km (about 30 mi) southeast of the Israeli city of Tel Aviv-Yafo. The city consists of two distinct parts, West Jerusalem and East Jerusalem. West Jeursalem has been Israel's capital since the 1949 Armistice Agreements. East Jerusalem, with its large Palestinian population, has been administered by Israel as part of its capital following the Six Day War in 1967 and its subsequent annexation, something both the Palestinians and United Nations do not recognise
I based this on the Encarta intro which i pasted in the FAC page. You'll see it begins with a general geographic statement and explains the capital issue only as part of the greater conflict. I find this npov, but i'm sure some people will completely oppose this. --A.Garnet 18:03, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I strongly object. The city is not two separate districts, it's one city, and you can't see any division. Jerusalem, as a whole, is the capital, not just the Western part (see the 1980 law about that). West Jerusalem served as capital from 1949 (after the end of the war, when the western part of Jerusalem was finally in Israeli hands). The area of Jerusalem beyond the Green Line has a very large Jewish population. And, quite frankly, no one asked the Palestinians for their recognition - they're not a sovereign entity. The controversy about control is already handled in the lead, and way more clearly than this suggestion. okedem 18:32, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I edited from "separate districts" to "distinct parts". Also added "since 1949 Armistice Agreements", is this correct? As for the Palestinians, they are part of the dispute so I think they warrant a mention... --A.Garnet 18:52, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
No, it's incorrect. It's not distinct parts or districts, or anything. It's one city. The only distinction remains on the maps, not in real life. It's not from the armistice agreements, but from December 1949, and, again, the entire city of Jerusalem is now the capital, not just the western part. The Palestinians are mentioned in the current phrasing.
I'm sorry, but your attempt seems to be going the wrong way, in my view, and no amount of minor changes will fix it - the whole structure is faulty. okedem 20:21, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I will wait for other views also. --A.Garnet 20:30, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Alternative rewrite:

Jerusalem (Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם (help·info), Yerushaláyim or Yerushalaim; Arabic: القُدس (help·info), al-Quds)[ii] is located in the Judean Mountains between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea about 50 km (about 30 mi) southeast of the Israeli city of Tel Aviv-Yafo. During the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the city was divided into two parts, West Jerusalem and East Jerusalem. West Jerusalem was designated Israel's capital in 1949. After the 1967 conflict, Israel annexed East Jerusalem and declared the unified city to be its capital. However, East Jerusalem has a majority Palestinian population, and Palestinans as well as the United Nations do not recognize the annexation. The annexation has been a major source of conflict, as Palestinians see East Jerusalem as the future capital of a Palestinian state. nadav 21:25, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

I think this is excellent Nadav, it is factual, concise and neutral. I cannot see any reason why anyone would oppose this. --A.Garnet 21:36, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
Well, I oppose. It doesn't say that Jerusalem is the capital (it only says that about West Jerusalem), or the largest city. It gives too much weight to the very close history, bombarding the reader with an issue that is better served in the appropriate sections.
I'm sorry. I can accept many compromises, but I see no good reason to stray from the current structure and phrasing of the lead, in particular, the first paragraph of it. No reason to turn this into a history section, and/or another "conflict" article. okedem 21:42, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I forgot "largest city", but we can easily add that. I did write "declared the unified city to be its capital". Is that not good enough? As for emphasis on history, you guys have to compromise. Some of you are saying that without it, it suffers from recentism or doesnt sufficiently cover the disputed status. Others are saying the history is too much. We can't have both. nadav 22:00, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
No, it's not, since the reader has to read the entire paragraph, to start understanding what the city is now (and still not really get it). I don't understand the need to alter the current, very clear phrasing: "Jerusalem is Israel's capital and seat of government. It is Israel's largest city...". These are the most basic facts regarding Jerusalem's current status, and are way more relevant than any claims or changes which might, some day in the future, occur (or not). I'm fine with placing the Palestinians' claim (or something like "The eastern part of the city was captured in the 1967 six day war, and remains disputed".) right after these first two sentences, before anything else, but not with your formulation. It just seems to muddle things up, and I've yet to see a good reason for it.
History/Recentism - in a city with several millennia of history, placing a lot of emphasis on events from the last 60 years is recentism. okedem 22:26, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Another go at it:

Jerusalem (Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם (help·info), Yerushaláyim or Yerushalaim; Arabic: القُدس (help·info), al-Quds)[ii] is the capital and largest city of Israel. Located in the Judean Mountains between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea, Jerusalem has a storied history that goes back five thousand years, over the course of which it changed hands many times. During the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the city was divided into two parts, West Jerusalem and East Jerusalem. West Jerusalem was designated Israel's capital in 1949. After the 1967 conflict, Israel annexed East Jerusalem and declared the unified city to be its capital. However, East Jerusalem has a majority Palestinian population, and Palestinans as well as the United Nations do not recognize the annexation. The annexation has been a major source of conflict, as Palestinians see East Jerusalem as the future capital of a Palestinian state. nadav 22:23, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Better, but still - trying to tell the whole story here is too much for the lead, and does seem to me to suffer from recentism. I don't think the finer points of this need to be in the lead, and the mention they do have now is more than enough. okedem 22:29, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
It goes into far too much detail on recent events and I would prefer that the second sentence is followed by something related to the five-thousand year history (rather than the recent sixty-year conflict). -- tariqabjotu 22:27, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Per my previous comments, these changes are destined to lead to renewed controversy, and inevitably recentism, in what was a deliberately worded section. I think we should restore the consensus version prior to this discussion and the attempt to accommodate it. Cheers, TewfikTalk 22:57, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

If it were up to me, I'd love to go back to that version. But I don't think a consensus has formed yet about the shape or priorities for the lead. We should set up a poll to pick from the leading options. Here is one more option. This one significantly reduces the details about wars and so forth:
Jerusalem (Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם (help·info), Yerushaláyim or Yerushalaim; Arabic: القُدس (help·info), al-Quds)[ii] is the capital and largest city of Israel. Located in the Judean Mountains between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea, Jerusalem has a storied history that goes back five thousand years, over the course of which it changed hands repeatedly. In recent times, the annexation of the eastern part of the city by Israel has been a major source of conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. Palestinians, along with the United Nations, do not recognize the annexation and see East Jerusalem as the future capital of a Palestinian state. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nadav1 (talk • contribs) 23:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC).

Poll to help form consensus on lead

Feel free to modify the table, add a candidate, or get rid of the table if it's annoying. nadav 00:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Version 1

Jerusalem (Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם (help·info), Yerushaláyim or Yerushalaim; Arabic: القُدس (help·info), al-Quds)[ii] is the capital and largest city of Israel. Located in the Judean Mountains between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea, Jerusalem has a storied history that goes back five thousand years, over the course of which it changed hands repeatedly. In recent times, the annexation of the eastern part of the city by Israel has been a major source of conflict between Israel and the Palestinians. Palestinians, along with the United Nations, do not recognize the annexation and see East Jerusalem as the future capital of a Palestinian state.

  • Neutral. I'll take anything people agree to (as long as it's not very anti-Israel). nadav 00:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
    • Why settle for even slightly anti-Israel. If its the objective truth then it should be stated that way, period. I can't understand why we Jews have an innate need to give in. Nadav; I respect your edits and my comment should be taken in the proper light. Itzse 21:07, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
      • First, I find your third sentence offensive, not to mention ridiculous. Realize that the "objective truth" may not be pleasant and may portray the Israelis or the Palestinians in a bad light. Sensitive facts should merely be used cautiously and with the appropriate amount of weight – not too much and not too little. -- tariqabjotu 22:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
        • Look you seem to be finding offense again where none was intended. I disagree totally with your premise, you read me completely wrong. This is an encyclopedia of facts created not to make anybody happy, but to inform the truth or where there is a dispute to inform the reader with both perspectives. I'm absolutely against Wikipedia appeasing anyone and let it state facts as unpleasant as it is and it if portrays people in a bad light, then so be it; remember we are not creating facts, we are only reporting them. Itzse 22:19, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
          • "Again"?? I understood you and I know you didn't intend to offend, but you did. If I said "I can't understand why you Jews have an innate need to give in," someone would take issue (with good reason). Replacing "you" with "us" does not make it any better. As for the part about the article itself, I don't think we're in disagreement; you basically repeated what I said. -- tariqabjotu 23:38, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
            • So then the only thing left is the perceived offense. If I would make such a statement about lets say a Chinese; then he would rightfully be offended. But I made a blanket statement about Jews in general; from one of the tribe to one of the tribe. I'm sure Nadav wasn't offended, he knows exactly what I mean; if you don't believe me, then ask him. Itzse 23:51, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
              • The perceived offense is not important. Let's drop it and finish working with the article. -- tariqabjotu 23:58, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
                • On that high note we proceed.Itzse 00:40, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Neutral This version gives the impression that the United Nations sees East Jerusalem as the future capital of Palestinian state. Is that true? Additionally, I'm not sure why the first sentence of the article was changed; it seemed okay to me, clearer, and more likely to be described as "compelling, even brilliant" prose. I'm not 100% happy with the fact that the long history was mentioned so briefly in comparison on the recent events, but it's better than Version 2 and I won't complain profusely. -- tariqabjotu 01:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
    • I wasn't thinking about the 1st sentence. Yes, your 1st sentence is better. nadav 01:24, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Comments
  • Contains elements from various proposals to some extent. nadav 00:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Version 2

Jerusalem (Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם (help·info), Yerushaláyim or Yerushalaim; Arabic: القُدس (help·info), al-Quds)[ii] is the capital and largest city of Israel. Located in the Judean Mountains between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea, Jerusalem has a storied history that goes back five thousand years, over the course of which it changed hands many times. During the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the city was divided into two parts, West Jerusalem and East Jerusalem. West Jerusalem was designated Israel's capital in 1949. After the 1967 conflict, Israel annexed East Jerusalem and declared the unified city to be its capital. However, East Jerusalem has a majority Palestinian population, and Palestinans as well as the United Nations do not recognize the annexation. The annexation has been a major source of conflict, as Palestinians see East Jerusalem as the future capital of a Palestinian state.

  • Oppose This places too much emphasis on recent events, which, in the grand scheme of things, are insignificant. -- tariqabjotu 01:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Comments
  • Closer to Abu Ali and A. Garnet's preference. nadav 00:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Version 3

Jerusalem (Hebrew: יְרוּשָׁלַיִם (help·info), Yerushaláyim or Yerushalaim; Arabic: القُدس (help·info), al-Quds)[ii] is Israel's seat of government, capital,[iii] and largest city both in population and area, with a population of approximately 724,000 (as of 2006) in an area totaling 126 square kilometers (49 sq mi). Located in the Judean Mountains between the Mediterranean Sea and the Dead Sea, Jerusalem has a storied history that goes as far back as the 4th millennium BCE. Since then, its inhabitants have included Jebusites, Romans, Byzantines, Arabs, and Israelis. Today the city is governed by Israel but remains meaningful to Palestinians, who see it as the capital for a future Palestinian state.

  • Support -- tariqabjotu 01:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
  • Leaning towards this version, which is close to the current form of the article, though perhaps current "Today the city is governed by Israel but is seen by Palestinian Arabs as a future capital for a Palestinian state" is better. nadav 01:38, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
    • That's fine too, although I tweaked the wording. -- tariqabjotu 03:18, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Comments
  • tariqabjotu's version nadav 00:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Overkill

I believe this straw poll is overkill. Things have not gotten this bad. Really. All this does is give the impression that there is more instability than there really is. There are going to be some people would won't stop complaining until we declare Palestine the rightful owners of Jerusalem... er... al-Quds and there are others who won't stop until we paint the town with blue and white. But ultimately, we're going to have to stick with verifiable statements, presenting the issue briefly. We can't please everyone and we should stop attempting to do so; that would be hopelessly futile. We agreed on the "compromise" to move the Palestinian state piece up. If people didn't like my intermediary sentences, fine; suggest a new rewording. However, I'm afraid some of the original signers and witnesses of the compromise are now trying to muscle more out of their opposition. At the very least, version two ought to be completely off the table. Ideally, this straw poll should be eliminated and converted to regular discussion. -- tariqabjotu 03:53, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, in hindsight I'm not sure I was right in creating this poll. I may have been too hasty in trying to appease a small number of objectors whose opinions are irreconcilable. Most of us are happy with how the aricle looks now. Others can suggest small changes. The lead was stable for a long while before this discussion began, and tariq's changes have already made it even more acceptable. nadav 05:51, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Again, I think we should go back to the previous consensus version. With all due respect to the FA discussion, a balance in the weight and placement of content is/was extremely difficult to come by, and upsetting the stasis will only result in the same discussions had months and years ago being rehashed. Any suggestions as to style etc. should be welcomed, but something as sensitive as the lead shouldn't undergo these changes at this point in the article's life. Cheers, TewfikTalk 05:57, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not so sure about that. When decent objections are raised on an FAC, I feel the main contributors to the article have the obligation to attempt to resolve them (to an extent). A few editors complained about the lack of prevalence given to what is a somewhat important issue (the political status of Jerusalem) and another editor objected to the minimal coverage of Jerusalem's lengthy history. Those issues may or may not have been resolved through the "compromise", which newcomers and regular contributors to this article alike have given a (dim) green light. Note that the discussion resulting the current intro was actually brief; it occurred in late January and is visible under Talk:Jerusalem#Capital, "largest city" out of intro. So... it actually wasn't exactly extremely difficult to come by. -- tariqabjotu 06:05, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
That compromise maybe, but this specific point has been a focus of contention throughout the article's [relatively] long life (certainly for the brief period of my involvement way back when). Eitherway, in light of what you are saying Nadav, and what I think you recognise Tariq, what shall be done? I still feel that even the small line brought up is far to recentist, and I'm not sure that the listing of different inhabitants will be the most stable way to relate the city's long history...would you oppose going back? TewfikTalk 06:43, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
The key word in what I said below is if. As it is, we must determine whether any non-radical change (as opposed to ver. 2 above) will win over anyone. So far, it sadly hasn't. nadav 07:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
If we could only make the people on FAC see how much effort and argument went into forging that consensus, they would surely agree with you (Tewfik). I only attempted a new version because of the objections, but I see now that there were an equal number of objectors from both sides, which is inevitable for any compromise. nadav 06:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't think that we necessarily have to limit ourselves to the demands of some of those voices, especially when they are in any event drawn to such radical versions. As for the lines moved up, I believe that we yielded far to easily on that point, which hasn't produced the sought after harmony in any event. I will restore the previous consensus version with just brief mention of the history, though if one of you truly objects, I suppose you could revert. TewfikTalk 00:11, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Even if a compromise can be reached; in the long run it can not hold; and when this discussion is archived; a new round will inevitably begin. Therefore why not debate the changes as we go, where edits that are true will stand the test of time and edits that are false will eventually fall. The good news with such an approach is that occasionally someone comes along and brings proper references and another nail is driven into the coffin, or comes up with such wording which objectively states different perceptions, leaving even less to debate, until theoretically the article is crafted and worded in such a way in which most people while not being happy can at least digest it.
To kick it off; I'll start by dividing the first paragraph. The reason being, that I checked out quite a few capital cities and found that all of them first state in two or three lines what it is; then the following paragraphs go into detail. The way it currently is, is IMO one big mumble jumble.
If anyone objects please spell out your reasons. Itzse 21:37, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure that this latest edit (with my emendation) is any better than the previous attempts, since it is still recentist to make an attempt to have 'the controversy strike the reader in the beginning'. Beyond that, like moving up the other line before it, this removes it from the summarised narrative (i.e. where it was previously) and breaks the flow. Thoughts? TewfikTalk 07:23, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

I am ambivalent about the recentist issue, however I do agree that this edit breaks the flow. If there were a consensus that the controversy should be introduced off the bat, then any of the proposals above would be a superior choice for doing that. I am still unsure where most people stand on the issue of recentistism vs. controversy in the lead. In any any case, I ask people who make big changes in the lead to discuss them here first, since they are controversial. nadav 07:38, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I am sorry to have not discussed the intended changes in the lead. I came to the article after a long hiatus (read the article in the beginning of the first version of the FAC), and was largely unaware of the proceedings in the talk page.
Ok, the sentence that I moved from the last para of the lead to the second line, does break the continuity. However, the continuity can somewhat be regained if the third sentence in the first para of the lead (in the present version) is shifted to be the first line of the second paragraph of the lead. This will make the second paragraph concerned with location, history and religious importances — leaving the first paragraph to deal with what is Jerusalem (a city, a capital, the largest city) and the controversy. Someone can say that still the first para contains geographic info (size and population), but that is in order to prove that it is the largest city. In fact, the data on exact size and population can be removed from the lead, and shifted to relevant parts of the article (geography, demographics). That will leave the first paragraph of the lead (which will be a short, two-sentence paragraph) solely concerned with what is Jerusalem and what is the controversy. Comments?--Dwaipayan (talk) 08:01, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
No, population is basically the most important stat there it. It has to remain. okedem 08:39, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I institutes the changes proposed. Please check, modify or revert, as needed. Sorry, did not know population stat is important in the lead beginning . It can be easily incorporated (for example, within brackets—though that somewhat hinders the reading). Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 08:45, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
I feel that the previous lead was better. Although controversy surround Jerusalem, I don't think it should surround the lead, and in it's current from we start we the controversy (first paragraph), and end with it (third paragraph), and we also lost the population figure, and size. (I don't think we should place it in brackets). I'll revert to a previous version. okedem 09:07, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Jerusalem is NOT Israel's capital

please correct the article as Jerusalem is not internationally recognised as Israel's capital. Even the Israeli government states its capital to be TEL AVIV. 122.105.139.197 (talk) 00:22, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Even the Israeli government states its capital to be TEL AVIV. That is not true. -- tariqabjotu 01:08, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

anther thing to correct is that the Egyptian and Syrian armies were not dfeated by Israel in the 6th of October 1973 war and that in this war israel was defeated and was losing its army in Sinai, and the evidences on what I am saying are: 1- Resignition of prime minister Golda Maeir, after asking the Americans to save Israel. 2- The Egyptian army was able to restore almost 26 Km from Sinai before the arrival of the American reinforcements to save Israel. 3- The American army sent to save israeli army on the borders of Egypt. 4- The total destruction of the Israeli defences and specially the Barlief defencive line built by Israelies on the eastern bank of the Egyptian Suez canal. 5- Finally the Israeli and the Americans were begging the Egyptians to accept the first fire hold on the 26th of October .

I'm sorry, you don't seem to know anything about the war.
  1. Golda did not resign until long after the war (after she was re-elected).
  2. The Egyptian army managed to catch Israel by surprise, so they did take some of the the Sinai. They were, however, later pushed back, and Israeli war free to march on the Cairo, if it wished to do so.
  3. The American Army never came to Israel. The US sent military supplies. Even before Israel got the supplies, the Arab armies called on the Soviets for an "aerial train" or supplies. This war mere days after the war they had been planning for years, and they still didn't bother to amass enough supplies for more than a couple of days of fighting. They did get a huge amount of supplies from the Soviets.
  4. Again, Israel's defences along the canal were indeed destroyed, but this was only the first phase of the war. You don't judge the outcome of a war by what happened in the first few days. In the end, Egypt and Syria were in far worse shape after the war, and suffered a lot more casualties than Israel did (15,000 dead, versus 2,700 dead in Israel. 8,700 Arabs captured, vs. 300 Irsaelis).
  5. By October 24th (this is the first and only Seize fire), Israel's army had crossed the canal into Egypt, and was only 100 km from Cairo, with no Egyptian forces between it and the city. The Egyptian 3rd Army was under siege in the Sinai, refusing to surrender, but out of supplies. They eventually got supplies after Soviet intervention. On the northern front, the IDF was 35 km from Damascus. The Arab defenses were basically non-existant at this time. Not Israel or the US wanted a seize fire at this time, but the Arabs, and the Soviet. To prevent a complete Egyptian defeat (as I said, their army was gone), the Soviets were preparing to attack Israel themselves; this helped them force a seize fire on Israel (and Egypt and Syria) by a UN Security Council resolution.
So... Check your facts. okedem (talk) 05:49, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I wonder what it has to do with the subject? Northern (talk) 14:05, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

a) it has nothing to do with wether or not Jerusalem is the capital of Israel and b) It doesn't matter what the international community thinks the capital is (note how the international community is so regularly ignored) it only matters what the nation says its capital is and since most of Israel's government is in Jerusalem how much do you want to bet they think their capital is Jerusalem.--UESPArules (talk) 01:15, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

-- It is wrong to say that Jerusalem isn't Israel's capital, as the Knesset (parlament's seat) is there. Tel Aviv is just more populated and more towards the state's center of population. I guess you said that from the point of view of a palestinian, so please do not post opinions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.179.148.47 (talk) 14:54, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Even the USA does not recognize Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Why are there no embassies in Jerusalem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AbbeyK (talk • contribs) 17:30, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Let's be clear about what a capital city is. As this is an English Wikipedia, both the Webster and Oxford dictionaries define "capital" as the seat of government (and not where foreign embassies are located, or what other countries recognize). Israel's Knesset (parliament) and government reside in Jerusalem, so that should end this discussion. 217.132.149.112 (talk) 06:07, 26 February 2008 (UTC)Casual Reader, Feb 26, 2008.

According to Encyclopedia Britannica, "Jerusalem ... is the capital of Israel." Doright (talk) 04:34, 3 March 2008 (UTC)