Talk:Jersey

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Jersey was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. Reviewed version: October 5, 2006

This Geography article has been selected for Version 0.5 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia. It has been rated B-Class on the assessment scale (comments).

WikiProject Echo has identified Jersey as a foreign language featured article. You may be able to improve this article with information from the French language Wikipedia.

Hello -- the economy section of the sidebar mentions a GDP per capita in the vicinity of GBP 40k; the link however gives a figure in USD which is closer to GBP 28k. Personally 40k sounds very high to me, but I am not an expert. It would help if somebody who knows could check up on this. Thanks-- ESA.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.191.245.118 (talk) 16:48, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Please adapt the Jerriais version of this page to confrom to the English language version not the other way around as no one in Jersey really speaks Jerriais anymore.

DariusJersey 05:18, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if I'm being overly timid by posting here, and should be editing the article, but I'm not a Wikipedia regular. Just pointing out an error in the Currency section: Pound coins are much less widely used than notes, not more. Furthermore, can Insula Caesarea really mean Island of Jersey?

Duly changed! On the motto: The States Treasury say that although on the coins it may look as though it says Caesarea Insula from the way it runs round the edge, it is supposed to be Insula Caesarea. And apparently both words should be in the nominative case, so in Latin it reads "Island Jersey" rather than having a genitive construction like in English. So I'm told. Man vyi 14:23, 19 July 2005 (UTC)

So what is Sark then, if not a Channel Island? --Dweir

It is a Channel Island, but it's in the Bailiwick of Guernsey, so it doesn't get a mention in the Jersey article. --Zundark, 2001 Nov 17

Oops, my mistake (but is is a bit confusing :). Sorry! --Dweir

I've just added a link from the "Communications" sub-page to Channel Television, and commented that Portuguese is widely used on the island thanks to migrant hotel workers. -- Arwel 00:43 Feb 8, 2003 (UTC)

I think it is confusing to say that a jersey is also a sweater. There are subtle differences between the two, and though a hockey jersey is technically called a "hockey sweater," in general they are not the same thing. --Daniel C. Boyer 15:43, 5 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I've edited that part a bit but it could probably still use some work. Especially the link-to-nowehere I created.

fvincent 06:57, Nov 29, 2003 (UTC)

Channel Islanders have not recently changed their minds: the Queen's traditional title is that of Duke of Normandy. One might contest the legal basis of the title, but can one deny that people have the right to decide what the title of their head of state is?

BTW there is a page /Temp to expand and convert the article Jersey over to the new format agreed to at WikiProject Countries. Please feel free to add or edit anything on this page to help in the conversion process. --User:Docu

[edit] King John Losing territories?

I dont think the statement about King John (lackland) losing all his territories is accurate. i dont know anything specific as to jersey, but i'm fairly certain England still had possesions on the continent long after his reign.

[edit] Official language

Jersey's website states that English is the official language of the island. It doesn't mention French or Jèrriais being official, though it does agree that French is used for legal purposes. I think the sidebar in our article is confusing: it says Jèrriais is recognized as a regional language. That makes it sound like it's a regional language within Jersey. Actually, I think what it means is that the UK government recognizes it as a regional language within the meaning of the European Charter for Regional Languages (though Jersey isn't part of the UK). According to the page on Jèrriais, the Jersey government is considering ratifying the charter. If they are considering it, that must mean they haven't done so, unless this is out of date. Rjp08773 18:43, 5 Jan 2005 (UTC)

French is indeed one of Jersey's official languages, though it is rarely used for meetings, etc. Jèrriais was recognized as a regional ("Minority and lesser-used") language by the British-Irish Council. The Jade Knight 01:41, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Jersey and the United Kingdom

Is there a sense in which the UK is itself a crown dependency? Or: is there a sense in which Jersey regards the UK as having co-equal status? Laurel Bush 16:36, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC).

The UK is not a Crown dependency, one must suppose, not being a territory dependent on the Crown but a sovereign state. Jersey is not sovereign, not having control of its own defence or its own diplomacy. There is currently a rumbling debate in Jersey about the Bailiwick's identity on the world stage and the need perceived in some quarters to redefine the relationship with the UK and the EU. This has been brought into focus by the 2004 celebrations of 800 years of independence/links with the Crown (a somewhat paradoxical conjunction of concepts), and the move to ministerial government under a Chief Minister after the elections at the end of this year. While the power relationship is clearly unequal, Jersey people express a cultural pride in the Channel Islands being the oldest possessions of the British Crown, the countries of the UK being comparative latecomers. Man vyi 17:53, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Please note that whilst the UK has to 'consult' with the Jersey, nothing ever said that they would have to take Jersey's view as being able to contradict the decisions made in the UK on foreign affairs and defence. Rather the like government of Jersey 'consults' with people before doing what it was going to do all along. It is somewhat tenditious to suggest that the UK does not have the final say in foreign affairs.

Also I have removed the paragraph on what Jersey will do if the UK joins the single currency, this is unsourced and absolute speculation on something that we are not even sure will arise.

RichardColgate 18:28, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

It further occurs that if Germany refuses to recognise the independence of Jersey then one must assume that the same will be true for certain other European countries, something similar I believe is the subject of an ongoing court case between Gibraltar and the European Union.

RichardColgate 18:49, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Duchess of Normandy

In theory, wouldn't a female monarch be Duchess of Normandy rather than Duke of Normandy? Or is this kind of like the female Emperor of China kind of thing, haha? --Dpr 07:16, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

A female monarch is always Duke of Normandy (never Duchess) and Lord of Mann (never Lady). See British monarchy site Man vyi 08:39, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Map size

It has come to my attention that someone keeps changing the size of the map. If you have your screen on a higher resolution, you can see things easier (and better). Those who run, say, 800x600 (or smaller) are going to have a jumbled screen. Try a setting like 1024x768. Rarelibra 7:51 23 JAN 2006

[edit] Opinions?

Maybe it's just me, but the article says both that most people in Jersey value the relationship between Jersey and the crown, and that 68% voted for Jersey's independence. There seems some contradiction here...

The Crown is one thing - the UK and its government is another thing entirely. One can quite reasonably wish to establish a sovereign state while preserving the monarch as head of state, i.e. turning the Crown dependency into a Commonwealth realm. No contradiction necessary. Man vyi 16:43, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] GA review

As of 5 October 2006, per WP:WIAGA, here's the assessment of this article for WP:GA status:

1. The number of references is too small (only 2 inlines and 1 offline). There are many sections unsourced, which mostly suffered are historical facts in History section and statistics numbers in Economy and Demographics sections. I see also some [citation needed] tags in some places. I'm not going to put any template, but please fix this to satisfies the verfiability criteria (2.a and 2.d).
2. The inline reference #2 is not verifiable. Please include also which article of the Jersey Evening Post that is used.
3. There are many orphan paragraphs that contains only 1 or 2 sentences. These might be merged with the other, as they break the flow.
4. There are redundancies of sentences with the infobox. For example, the Census subsection which only contains 2 sentences is redundant with the information already in the box.
5. Some part of this article is a bit list-like article. It should be converted into more textual description or put them into tabular form. An example is in Coinage subsection.
6. The whole article needs to be reorganized into more logical structure. Small subsections with only a few sentences are not good, because they create a fragmented article, rather than a complete story. (criterion 1.b)
7. Image Image:Jersey_Film_Festival_2005.jpg has copyright notation and no fair use rationale is given. Please fix this. (criterion 6.a)
8. I see some of peacock terms and sometimes I sensed of ads campaign in the following statements:
   • "Jersey history is significant because of its strategic...". Let the reader decides him/herself how significant the history is.
   • "... that has also been acknowledged (though not widely so) for the quality of its meat.". Just support this claim with reliable source.
9. Some weasel words are found:
   • "Formally constituted political parties are unfashionable, although groups of "like-minded members" act in concert."
   • "As VAT has not been levied in the Island, luxury goods have often been cheaper than in the UK or in France providing an incentive for tourism from neighbouring countries." It is not a fact, but rather a speculative statement.
   • "Recently, Jersey two pound coins which still go around the island today, were sold on ebay for more than they were worth." It is an unclear fact of how much they were worth. Also avoid recently, because it does not state exact time for a reader.
   • "Pound coins are issued, but are much less widely used than pound notes." Perhaps a citation is needed to support this claim.
10. Some sentences that look opinion to me, as they are unsourced and it clearly has POV tone. (criterion 4)
    • "Should the UK sign up to the single-currency treaty, Jersey may decline and choose to maintain the Pound on its own, endowed as it is with its own treasury and economic prosperity as a result of its status as one of the world's largest offshore financial centres."
    • "Most Jersey-born people consider themselves British and value the special relationship between the British Crown and the Island." Also avoid a vague number, such as most. The special relationship is also unexplained.
    • "Jersey, like most places in the western world, has an ageing population. Reasons for this change particular to Jersey are the emigration of young people seeking opportunities the Island cannot provide." Vague number with most. The last sentence is also a bit awkward.
11. Prose rewording for a non-specialist reader (criterion 1.a):
    • "It includes 53 elected members - 12 senators (elected for 6-year terms), 12 constables (heads of parishes elected for 3-year terms), 29 deputies (elected for 3-year terms); the Bailiff and the Deputy Bailiff (appointed to preside over the assembly and having a casting vote in favour of the status quo when presiding); and 3 non-voting members - the Dean of Jersey, the Attorney General, and the Solicitor General all appointed by the Crown." This sentence is too long to describe many things and hence confusing. It might be better to break it into several unambiguous sentences.
    • "Her representative on the island is the Lieutenant Governor, Lieutenant General Andrew Ridgway who has little but a token involvement in island politics." Why are there two lieutenant ranks? Who is Andre Ridgway? Is he a current representative? Please avoid facts that are likely to change in the near future, if he is the current representative.
    • "The Church of England is the established church, but Methodism is traditionally strong in the countryside and there is a large Roman Catholic minority. See Religion in Jersey." Confusing statements.
    • "The Jersey Democratic Alliance is the only party currently having States Members, although these were elected as independents." Contradiction. See words to avoid.
    • "It is spoken by a minority of the population, although it was the majority language in the 19th century." Also a contradiction.
12. In the Economy section, there is a list of notably hotels. This looks like an advertisement to me. Unless the hotel has an important history, it can be listed there and with reliable source as well.

As a conclusion, this article fails for Good Article status. As always, editors can submit this article to WP:GA/R, if they disagree with my reviews above, or resolve those matters and renominate it again. Cheers. — Indon (reply) — 09:54, 5 October 2006 (UTC)

1. I have added 16 references: seven of those are in the history section, six in the economy section and one in the demographics section.

4. I made the information on the Census part of the demographics section and removed the redudant information.

8. 1. I changed this to: Jersey history is the result of its strategic location …

8. 2. I added two sources: the first is the Financial Times newspaper reporting that "consumer response [to Jersey meat] has been so vigorous locally that export inquiries, both retail and restaurant, have been put on hold"; the second is an article quoting a farmer saying that "Jersey meat is the most tender meat there is".

9. 3. I removed the dubious statement.

11. 3. The statement seems clear enough to me. The Church of England is the state church, but there is a strong Methodist tradition in the countryside and there are also many Catholics. If you can express the idea in a more clear fashion, you are most welcome to.

I've made a copyedit. It basically needs a wording. When you have many facts in one sentence, it's confusing. It's better to split one sentence, one fact. — Indon (reply) — 11:55, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

11.4. As I understand it, some States Members belong to the Jersey Democratic Alliance, but they did not run on its platform.

This is also the same case of using although. You might just have rephrase it. I've tried, but it confuses me. It says, "the only party currently having States Members". Is there only one party in Jersey, or are there many parties in Jersey, where others do not have their members as States Members? You know better than me, so you can rephrase it well. — Indon (reply) — 11:55, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

11.5. Why is this a contradiction? It was the majority language in the 19th century and it is now a minority language.

This is also 2 facts in one sentence. Using although as a conjugation is permitted, but should be best avoided. I've made a copyedit of this sentence. — Indon (reply) — 11:55, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

12. I added a reference for the Pomme d'Or being the German Navy Headquarters during the Occupation.

Thank you very much for your input.

God bless you,

Grumpy Troll ^(talk) 13:21, 7 October 2006 (UTC).

I know this is well after the fact, but I believe many of the sentences Indon has problems with are perfectly fine and encyclopedic (on par with what I find in English graduate papers). The confusion may come from his not being a native English speaker, however. The Jade Knight 02:44, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I've seen a lot of improvements. Very good. I've made some changes regarding your questions above. Please check the changes. You just need to ensure clarity, no confusing statements. After that, you can renominate it again in WP:GAC. Good luck and happy editing. Cheers. — Indon (reply) — 11:55, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Beer, Ale

Sorry, my english is simple. I was on a Channel Island (I think it was Jersey, but I'm not sure). I come from St. Malo (bycicle tour) and sleeps one night on Jersey (or Guernsey?). I have drink an Island beer (or ale). I found the bitter, was very good. I don't find something about them in this article. At my bycicle tours on the island I have some problems. I want do drive round the island. But the ways goin in the centre. And there was not any sign-board before the cities. Can anybody help with beer? --Chauki 09:01, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Location maps available for infoboxes of European countries

[edit] Are Jersey and Guernsey truly separate?

In the article about the Channel Islands it says the Channel Islands are not a political unit, but it also says that they are remainder of the Duchy of Normandy. Considering the history of Britain, France and Normandy from the 1200s to today, wouldn't this mean that legally, they still constitute one duchy and therefore (at some level) one political unit? Was the Duchy of Normandy ever abolished? And since France went through all those revolutions and is now a republic, then wouldn't that mean, that legally the Channel Islands are the succeeding (and only) Duchy of Normandy since the Duchy in French Normandy was abolished?72.27.29.124 22:56, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

See my response over at the Channel Islands talk page. Man vyi might be able to provide further details, however, since I'm still murky on some of how it all played out. The Jade Knight 11:00, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Proposed project

There is now a proposed project to deal with the crown dependencies of Guernsey, Isle of Man, and Jersey. Anyone interested in taking part should indicate their interest at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Crown dependencies. Thank you. John Carter 19:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Latin Europe

Hello Jersey! There is a vote going on at Latin Europe that might interest you. Please everyone, do come and give your opinion and votes. Thank you. The Ogre (talk) 20:42, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 2008 child abuse investigations

Moved text here for discussion:

Sadly, Jersey is also becoming infamous for its endemic culture of sexual and physical abuse of children during the latter half of the 20th century[1] One of its most infamous paedophiles was Edward Paisnel, the "Beast of Jersey", who was sentenced to 30 years inprisoment in 1971 for the abuse of 30 children. He stalked the island in a grotesque rubber mask and nail-studded wristlets, often visiting orphanages dressed as Santa Claus to find victims.

The ongoing investigations at Haut de la Garenne, having attracted wide media attention recently, have prompted some recent edits highlighting some of the speculation surrounding the case. The problem is this: until the investigation reaches a stage where verifiable facts can be included in an encyclopaedic article we are reduced to including speculation and comment. On the other hand, not mentioning news that is currently attracting readers to this article might suggest censorship. Other country articles tend not to highlight individual criminal cases as part of the main article. How should we handle this? Man vyi (talk) 03:55, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

it should be handled by rigorous referencing and following all the usual wikipedia policies.--feline1 (talk) 11:31, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

One of the problems is that as a current event, a lot of the international media coverage is speculative and fast-moving. Referencing speculation is tricky in the midst of a long-running police investigation. So far, there's a lot of news and little of encyclopaedic worth. Man vyi (talk) 12:04, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

wikipedia has a tag for exactly this sort of situation, we should stick that on it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Feline1 (talk • contribs) 13:45, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm getting pretty sick of seeing the material on the child abuse investigation repeatedly unilaterally deleted without any discussion by anonymous users. Wikipedia proceeds by editorial consensus, not by vandalism.--feline1 (talk) 02:55, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

So far, of course, there's no expressed consensus that this news item should be in the main country article when we have a separate article dealing with the specifics. Man vyi (talk) 05:40, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

What reason could there be for not having it in the Jersey article? It's been in the national BBC news now for weeks and covered around the world. As such, it's probably one of the most notable things about Jersey right now, that anyone would want to look up on wikipedia. The idea that the main article should not at the very least contain a heading for it and a link to the main article is bizarre.--feline1 (talk) 11:32, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Whether people should expect news coverage in a main country article is a question to consider. I remain to be convinced that, at this stage, there's anything encyclopaedic that merits a mention in this article when the notability really relates to the location itself. Man vyi (talk) 13:19, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

That endemic child abuse and institutional cover-up have been rife on Jersey for over half a century is certain WP:NOTABLE, even if it's an embarrassment to the islanders. What next? Should we remove mention of "the troubles" from the Northern Ireland article?--feline1 (talk) 16:57, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Endemic child abuse and institutional cover-up? Is that verifiable? Man vyi (talk) 07:23, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, it seems many of the key facts have been covered up...One often finds this with cover ups... As you will doubtless be aware, the police investigation is ongoing and expected to last at least 18 months.--feline1 (talk) 18:00, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

The police have indicated that they expect to make arrests imminently. No doubt the nature and scope of any charges will make things clearer - and, most importantly for encyclopaedic purposes, be verifiable events. Man vyi (talk) 05:54, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

The deputy chief constable's statement to the press this morning (reported on BBC News 24) is that former senior officers of the Jersey Constabulary have been obstructing his investigations (i.e. more cover up)--feline1 (talk) 09:43, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

The obstruction by the former police officers is related to trying to cover their own failures, not to conceal the abuse. It is in no way evidence of an institutional culture of secrecy and cover-ups. The current police investigations have repeatedly stated that thus far there is NO evidence of official cover-ups. Neither is there evidence of endemic child abuse in Jersey. I don't have statistics available, but as far as I am aware there is no reason to suppose figures are above the national average. The 'culture of cover-ups' concept is closely linked to current political conflict in the Island (mainly in respect of the Syvret/Walker dispute) and therefore is decidedly dodgy territory fact-wise. Whatever Stuart Syvret claims, at present there is nothing (in the public domain, at any rate) that is verifiable, at least by Wikipedia's standards. Anglo-Norman (talk) 15:57, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Rubbish. The repeated censoring of this very article is as indicative of the cover-up culture as anything else. --feline1 (talk) 10:18, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

A very strange cover-up that provides nearly an entire separate article on the investigation! So far, though, the investigation has provided no verifiable facts of an encyclopaedic nature to justify inclusion in the main country article. Man vyi (talk) 16:02, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

In the continuing absence of any verifiable facts of an encyclopaedic nature to justify inclusion in the main country article, I propose now moving the section to States of Jersey Police. Comments? Man vyi (talk) 06:55, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like you're out to shaft wikipedia internationally to me, Man vyi ;)--feline1 (talk) 14:48, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Jersey Map

Crown dependency

Isle of Man

Guernsey

Channel Islands

Proposed map of Jersey

Current map

Well I have created the above maps to help people locate the islands. Currently the map shown is really a map of Europe with a little green spot that one would have to get a magnifying glass to even see the island, assuming that you can see the green spot to begin with. The map I created shows you France, the UK & Ireland to help locate the island & gives you the ability to tell where it is. I hope you like it :-) -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 08:01, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

As far as I understand the convention, country locators have to show the country position in the world. Unfortunately the locally hosted Image:LocationJersey.png overrides the Commons hosted Commons:Image:LocationJersey.png which is much clearer. If we compare the current locator map to the currently used locator maps for other small countries of Europe such as Malta, Andorra and Liechtenstein we can see the similar effect of a small dot in a large world - but that's the situation and seems to be policy. One solution may be to copy the Commons hosted file to a different name to allow it to appear in en: as it appears in :fr for example. Man vyi (talk) 09:53, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

I will say that the current map is highly uninformative, and the map you suggest will be too small in the info box to be seen & effectively used. Not only that the format you suggest is only used for fully independent countries not for country subdivisions. And if you want to know how I am aware of this, it is because I actually checked how all other countries show their territories (excluding the UK). There seams to be a unified standard going that almost everybody can agree upon. -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 10:06, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Is there anyone else out there that objects? If not I'll just re-insert it, at least this way we'll be able to see everything properly in the info box :-) If only Man vyi objects can we please try the new version out. That way others can see it and comment if they disapprove, which I hope they wont... but at least they'll know about the convo here. -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 03:12, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, since there were no objections in the last 25 hours I'm going to re-insert the maps. If there are objections then then is will at least open up a dialog. Man vyi can I ask that you don't revert so that we can see what others think? thanks -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 04:02, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

It's been taken to talk, so the process has been properly initiated. Man vyi (talk) 05:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I actually quite like the map for other uses. Would you consider uploading a language-neutral version for use in other languages? Man vyi (talk) 05:15, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

A language-neutral version? -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 08:12, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

A version without the language-specific wording on (for example, as it stands we can't use the map in nrm:) Have a look at Commons:Category:Language-neutral maps. Man vyi (talk) 15:11, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Which ones do you want? Also do you like the colour currently used? Do you think I should make a version using the standard map colours or keep them as they are? -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 11:06, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Anything that suits you - as I say I quite like the map. Thanks! Man vyi (talk) 14:52, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I hope this is what you were thinking Image:Uk map crown dependency no text.png -- UKPhoenix79 (talk) 19:37, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Thanks for taking the trouble. Those sort of maps will be useful across all languages. Man vyi (talk) 06:41, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Another proposed guideline for "the British Isles"

I have numerous concerns about the current proposal for a guideline for the use of the term British Isles and have written another proposal. My main concerns were that the proposal as it is written here did not walk the line of WP:NPOV, did not have an adequate grounding in current consensus and practice, and did not offer any concrete guidelines per se that an editor could follow or easily understand (in the broadest sense of the term).

My proposed guidelines are here. --sony-youth^pléigh 20:37, 6 April 2008 (UTC)