Talk:Jeremy Paxman

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[edit] Paxman and George Galloway

Paxman and Galloway are two strong characters, and knowing Wikipedia, people could clash here as badly as they have. In my opinion, the notorious interview was clearly not Paxmans finest moment - just as Big Brother was hardly Galloways. I hope that any future editors can take this into account, and not try to make the incident favour (or unfairly disfavour) one or the other.

I have included words to the effect that Galloway did not consider Paxman's 'Big Brother tape' asking him to return to Newsnight ("with or without the leotard") a serious offer. Of course this information should hardly be needed(!), but someone is suggesting that Galloway is refusing to meet the "challenge", so I feel that for the time being that Galloway's position needs to be stated - daft as it sounds to even consider that Newsnight would make a serious offer in this way! (and Galloway, of course, rarely backs out of a genuine opportunity to appear in the media anyway!). --Matt Lewis 18:36, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

'Celebrity' Paxman was clearly making a guest appearance on Big Brother himself (via the taped "leotard" message), so I have made that more clear! --Matt Lewis (talk) 13:08, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Political Bias

Does anyone else think, or is there any evidence that Paxman is in favour of one side of the political spectrum or another? As a leftwinger I am probably slightly biased in my opinion that Paxman is more right-wing than left. However seeing as he seems to criticse everyone (although notably over different issues, i.e. he dosent criticse Blair over policy but religion, and Blair is widely held to be centre right-wing in Britain) perhaps his political alignment is simply that of the 'slightly'-overconfident arsehole party. As I cannot see any reference in the article can someone tell me if they know whether Paxman has a left-wight alignment or he just criticises everyone (in a way which is admittedly fun to watch).Anti-BS Squad (talk) 12:37, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Where was JP brought up?

Reference four (from The Independent) indicates that JP was brought up in Yorkshire, and went to school in Worcestershire. The problem is that the "Early life" section currently states that he was brought in in Worcestershire. Snowman (talk) 13:21, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that it is changed to say something like: "JP was brought up in Yorkshire, and he went to an independent boarding school in Worcestershire". Snowman (talk) 13:51, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree. As far as possible, I think we should try to stick to written sources (in this case, the Independent article). The problem with relying on the episode of Who Do You Think You Are? as a source is that it's quite difficult to verify facts disclosed during the programme. Do go ahead and make the change. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 13:57, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Change made. Snowman (talk) 14:48, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Cheers for that. The article also needs a general beefing-up based on the numerous news articles and websites about Paxman that are available. I listed some of these in the "References" and "Further reading" section but haven't got round to incorporating some of them into the article yet. You might want to give it a go if you have time. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 15:15, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
  • As you know, but for the benefit of others, this issue was raised by JP's comment on Who Do You Think You Are? that he was brought up in Worcestershire. I added this info. to the article, you removed it, we discussed - I asked you to provide a link back to our discussion to aid others, here it is - User_talk:Snowmanradio#Jeremy_Paxman. We both confirmed that he said that he was brought up in Worcestershire, that's not at issue. You made a pov interpretation that he was joking, I made no interpretation as I thought it was a serious comment and simply included it with the appropriate reference. Wikipedia:PRIMARY#Primary.2C_secondary.2C_and_tertiary_sources states that no interpretive claims about the information found in a primary source should be made. The Independent article says "he had grown up in Yorkshire". I said, and maintain -
  • "As it is, we appear to have a conflict between a primary (Paxman) & secondary source (a journalist), given that, it is my contention that some highly accurate and credible evidence needs to be produced to override the former, which I don't believe you have produced."
  • As such I think that your continued removal of this information breaches WP:NPOV "The policy requires that where multiple or conflicting perspectives exist within a topic each should be presented fairly. None of the views should be given undue weight or asserted as being judged as "the truth"" and WP:BLP "We must get the article right." -- John (Daytona2 · talk · contribs) 16:16, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi, Daytona2. Thanks for highlighting your discussion with Snowman on the matter, which I was unaware of. I watched the episode of Who Do You Think You Are? in question ages ago, and do not remember what was said about where Paxman was brought up. However, there doesn't seem to be any dispute between Snowman and yourself that Paxman himself said he was brought up in Worcestershire, so I will take your word for it. While it would be better to provide a reference to a written source such as a news article or a website, I agree that Paxman's own statement on the matter should be regarded as more reliable than the newspaper article. May I suggest that, until better evidence becomes available, that the article be amended to state that he was brought up in Worcestershire, citing the TV programme as a reference, but that a footnote be added stating that the Independent article claims he was brought up in Yorkshire? — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 16:29, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
My interpretation of the TV program in which JP said "I was brought up in Worcestershire" is that this was said in jest, without meaning this literally, and obviously tangential to the context of where his relatives came from. It is not only the words, JP was filmed saying this in conversation. He does this on Newsnight too as an interviewing technique, doesn't he? He was also persuaded in jest that he was a "Suffolk boy" in the TV program, and there is a reference to confirm this - the ref by Hayward. Even though he went to school in Worcestershire, by common scene and without Wikipedia:Gaming the system, I think that it can be assumed that he spent his preschool years in Yorkshire with his parents, and visited his parents in Yorkshire regularly in school holidays. I think that both the TV program and the reference are consistent with JP being brought up predominantly in Yorkshire when he was a small boy. I am sure that he is familiar with Worcestershire and the article can say this. Perhaps a form of words can be made to indicate that JP was bought up first in Yorkshire, and that he also know Worcestershire where he went to boarding school. It is disputed that he spent his preschool years in Yorkshire with his parents? Snowman (talk) 17:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Again, I'm hampered by the fact that I didn't watch the programme recently. It now seems there is a genuine difference of opinion as to what Paxman meant to convey in the show. Since the matter of where he was brought up is, relatively speaking, not so important, and what is known is where he was born (Yorkshire) and where he attended school (Worcestershire), I would suggest that the point not be mentioned in the main text at all. Instead, a footnote should be added at a suitable point setting out what the two different sources state, leaving the matter for the reader to judge. The issue can be revisited if more reliable sources come to light. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 18:15, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
As both his parents lived in Yorkshire (and at the time of TV program his mother still lived in Yorkshire and his father lived in Australia), it would be odd to say that he was brought up in Worcestershire. It is my opinion the two sources are consistent with JP spending his preschool years in Yorkshire as a small boy and that he was educated at a boarding school in Worcestershire. We can not have a footnote to say that he is a "Suffolk boy" as well. I do not have a reference to say at what age he started boarding school or if he started infant or junior education in Yorkshire, before being sent to boarding school. With the limited information available would it be correct to say: "JP spent his early years in Yorkshire in a wealthy household, until his parents sent him to a boarding school in Worcestershire". Nevertheless, I think that the current article wording is satisfactory. Snowman (talk) 18:39, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
You may well be right, and if Daytona2 agrees with your view on the matter then I'm fine with it too. But it is nonetheless a surmise on your part, so if there's disagreement it may be better just to leave the point out of the main text of the article and put it in a footnote, particularly since it's not a very important point anyway. And there's no reason why the footnote can't also mention Paxman's remark that he was a "Suffolk boy". — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 19:02, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Information from "The Independent" is not a surmise on my part. I think that it is not unimportant, because JP thinks of himself as from Yorkshire, as far as I am aware. If the text was detailed enough then the jest that he was a Suffolk boy, could be included, but at the present time the text needs elaborating in order to put it in context. The TV program may be repeated, or it may be out on BBC DVD. Perhaps soon, we might gather more interpretations from anyone who saw the comment made by JP jesting that "he was brought up in Worcestershire" on BBC TV in the program "Who do you think you are?". Snowman (talk) 20:04, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Two more sources - "Although Paxman was brought up in Leeds and Worcestershire" - The Independent
"Jeremy Paxman was born in 1950 and brought up in Worcestershire" - The Observer
Nothing said above changes my opinion that it was a wholly unreasonable removal, performed in breach of WP:NPOV & WP:BLP and that the current statement "Paxman was brought up in Yorkshire" is incorrect and/or misleading given the accumulated evidence of his own words and 2 secondary sources. I'd be happy with "Paxman was brought up in Yorkshire and Worcestershire" -- John (Daytona2 · talk · contribs) 14:45, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
My sourced edit saying that JP was brought up in Yorkshire was entirely logical and reasonable. Snowman (talk) 10:32, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
The two sources above from 2002 & 2005 raise questions about that, heightened in 2006 when Paxman himself contradicted it, prompting my sourced change, which you removed. As I said and maintain, a breach of WP:NPOV & WP:BLP. I'm not happy about your behaviour over this. -- John (Daytona2 · talk · contribs) 13:18, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I repeat, my edit was entirely logical and reasonable. Snowman (talk) 13:29, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Malvern College

On first inspection of the wiki page on Malvern College, Worcestershire, it appears that the school was for pupils from age 13 to 18 at that time that JP was pupil there. It would be interesting to to able to confirm at what age JP started at the school, but I am not aware of a reference for this. Snowman (talk) 20:17, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism section

I'm not sure the latest addition about Paxman's staff is particularly balanced or reliable given it comes from the NotW. The other article then looks like it has been based entirely on the NotW one. I don't know what the law is regarding payslips, contracts etc but presumably the articles would have mentioned if this was actually illegal so therefore the main substance of the story seems to be that someone who was employed by Paxman for a while didn't particularly like him. Doesn't seem very worth mentioning to me. JMiall₰ 19:31, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, from what I read about it online, he didn't actually do anything illegal. He was just a jackass to some more people besides politicians and reality TV folks. And these particular insultees were so wounded, they decided to engage the ever-reliable services of NotW... Bangdrum (talk) 21:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Yes, from the point of view of potential libel, the section should probably be removed. News of the World is hardly a very reliable source: see "News of the World#Libel actions brought against the News of the World". I note that the article does not mention anything about an attempt to ask Paxman for his side of the story for some balance. On the other hand, the Evening Standard did pick up the story (possibly from the News of the World? I can't tell because the article on the NotW website is undated) and tried to verify it with Paxman but he was "unavailable for comment". In any case, the information is marginal to the article. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 23:16, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
An anonymous editor has taken the initiative to remove the section. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 12:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
This is all wrong. I put it on there and it has also been reported by the in the Guardian.1) The "information is marginal to the article" - fair enough the tone is slightly out, but wikipedia is a "work in progress" works, and so excluding something because it doesn't quite create a perfect article isnt reason to exclude sourced information (beef up the other parts!).2) The reason why I put it up and the reason why it is relevant it this: Paxman is an influential social/political pundit, paid with public money. These criticisms of his employment practices highlight hypocrisy on his part, which should be considered when listening to his shows/opinions/bias etc. To make it totally clear: when watching a Paxman report on Romanian immigrants undertaking menial jobs and then hearing/receiving Paxmans wise words/steering questions, at the very least it would then be of reverence that he is an employee of Romanian immigrants. I will focus the paragraph seeing as it caused this much resistance, but i cannot accept there is no relevance/validity to this sourced information.Chendy (talk) 12:13, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
It's certainly a good example of someone using the word 'Paxmanesque'! If she didn't have a contract either it's actually a scandal. It could use another cite or two though, if it only had the one.
Seriously, Paxman has clearly gone down hill since his heyday in the 80's and 90's - and people are starting to get cynical about how right wing he's become: New labour, pro-royalty, backing the BBC (since it was bloodily made the Bush and Blair corporation). His interviewing style must be getting under some criticism too - I saw Newsnight once last year where he just didn't bother asking the obvious (and needed) questions on a contentious Newsnight report on how the public see Labour PM candidates, and just started waffling to the report-maker about John Reed not wanting the PM job! He had far too much power on that show - the Spitting Image joke back in the 80's was him having his feet on up Newsnight desk - but he irritated the Tories, so nobody minded. --Matt Lewis (talk) 12:39, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi, Chendy. Well, the Guardian article wasn't included as a reference, perhaps because it had yet to be published when you inserted the information. It may be possible to restore the information (perhaps in slightly less detail) if the Guardian article makes the points that you made about possible hypocrisy on Paxman's part. Otherwise, if this is just your own conclusion, it may be "original research or thought" which contravenes Wikipedia policy. Is there, for instance, evidence that Paxman ever did a report on immigrants at all, Romanian or otherwise? People in the public eye do many things that get reported in the press, but not all of them are worthy of mention in an encyclopedia article. We haven't mentioned Paxman's letter to Marks & Sparks about the alleged poor quality of their underpants, for example! — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 18:31, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Hope you're signed-up with all those Wikiprojects, Jack! --Matt Lewis (talk) 20:01, 15 February 2008 (UTC)\
Sorry, Matt, I don't follow. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 16:03, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Having looked it up there is no need to have a written contract link therefore this aspect is neither a scandal or noteworthy. Secondly Paxman is normally an interviewer / presenter not a pundit. If he actually has actually been criticising immigrant employment practices as a pundit i.e. making the news himself, then fair enough leave this section in, preferably with a citation for his original statements. If all he has been doing is asking questions about this when it is already in the news then he has not been hypocritical, he's just been doing his job. And is it our job to report hypocrisy anyway? JMiall₰ 18:39, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks to all the comments. I guess i have a different vision of wikipedia to some of you. 1) "Paxman is normally an interviewer / presenter not a pundit" - surely it must be clear that the opinions/biases of an interviewer are as relevant as those of a pundit: if the interviewers hardball or softball, or where the interviewer probes etc. 2) "And is it our job to report hypocrisy anyway?" - yes for political pundits, politicians etc. 3) Its not original research: the hypocrisy bit is from the newspapers. 4) Also I am of the opinion that the much disliked trivia sections should be on wikipedia generally (ie M&S pants) - The more information (correctly (un)emphasized) the better, if correctly sourced etc. 5) Finally viva wikipedia! - for this unique consensus based media experience, and good day to all!Chendy (talk) 12:06, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
If hypocrisy has been alleged in the press, why don't you rewrite the paragraph that you think should be reinserted with appropriate references and post it here so we can all have a look and comment on it? I reserve opinion on Paxman's saggy pants ;-) — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 16:06, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

Paxman has been criticised for his treatment of two immigrants formerly employed as servants for one of his Oxford homes, largely due to his reputation as a renowned socio-political television presenter and interviewer.[1] Paxman employs staff at his two Oxford homes and London flat. Romanians Daniela Savin and Robert Laslau criticised the low pay they received, working 40-hour weeks for £5 an hour. The national minimum wage of £5.52 was not applicable, as live-in servants do not qualify.[1][2] Paxman was allegedly rude and disrespectful to his staff.[3] Paxman's employment practices have been criticised in the light of his highly paid roles on University Challenge and Newsnight, the latter often entailing discussion of workers' rights and immigration.[3]

  1. ^ a b "Paxo's dirty laundry gets a very public airing", Guardian. Retrieved on 2008-02-17. 
  2. ^ "And now your starter for ten: Just how many Romanians are living over Paxman's garage?", This is London. Retrieved on 2008-02-13. 
  3. ^ a b "Working for Paxo is pants", News of the World. Retrieved on 2008-02-13. 

Well, I fixed the typos and grammar problems in that. If the author (or anyone else) agrees it should go in the article (as opposed to the talk page), go for it. Bangdrum (talk) 16:07, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the quote by Savin can be omitted. It's salacious but doesn't add much to what is already stated in the paragraph. Also, can another reference be found for the statement about Paxman having discussed workers' rights and immigration on Newsnight? As we mentioned above, News of the World is not really the most reliable of sources. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 16:33, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

How about this under Personal life (It could come under 'In the Media'. 'In poular culture' could then come under that (as a parag rather than a list),

"Paxman has come under criticism for the way he has employed his household staff (NOTW cite). He advertised for help on a Romanian website and paid two employees below the minimum wage, without a contract. This is not illegal for live-in employees in the UK, but the appropriateness given Paxman’s status has been questioned. (guardian, Standard etc?)"

I thought of adding the line “He was reportedly an uncivil employee.” But one article in the NOTW is not enough for me – It is notorious for collecting comments people make into inflammatory short paragraphs. --Matt Lewis (talk) 18:17, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm uncomfortable with the current wording of the paragraph and its location in the "Personal life" section. I thought the whole point of including the information was to show that Paxman might be hypocritical in appearing to champion workers' rights in his work but nonetheless had a different standard for his own employees, in which case it should be in the "Journalism" section. If there's no mention of that in the paragraph because no adequate reference can be found for it, then I'm not sure the information deserves to be in the article. The reference to Paxman's "status" is vague. The implication is that Paxman, as a wealthy man, should have paid his employees more. I'm not sure that's noteworthy enough. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 18:57, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
The hypocrisy criticism didn't say enough I didn't think - and he's hardly a champion of the left any more, and only a journalist - not a politician. I think the story has minimal noteworthiness - where else than in personal life? - it's basically a character judgement against him by a personal employee. He's meant to be objective as a journalist anyway, so what does it matter what Newsnight has covered? As a very highly-paid 'celebrity' he will have a moral 'factor' and a status as a role model (these things can effect careers after all). That's the 'noteworthiness' imo. It would look more balanced if other more positive information was in the Personal life section too, though. Charity work, maybe - stuff like that. It think that needs to be found, more than this criticism moved somewhere else, developed into 'hypocracy', or removed. As the Guardian found it noteworthy, I can't argue against actually including it.--Matt Lewis (talk) 19:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I take your point, but would like to hear what other editors think about the matter. Again, not everything that appears in the press (even if in reputable newspapers) is worth reproducing here. I'm loath to mention this as an example, but here goes – Paxman's pants. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 22:12, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
I have added the newly edited section, minus the personal quotes. I don,t Like the "in the media" heading either.Chendy (talk) 22:34, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
The 'socio-political' point is surely too tenuous - what difference does it make what his presenter job was? He covered what he covered - and all presenters are expected to be objective anyway. Remember WP:No Original Research (Policy) and WP:Wikipedia is not a News report (Policy) - it's not up to us to create the interest! The story has far too much WP:weight now. It's such a subjective thing, it doesn't warrant much on it. I'd love to write "Paxman is a git" across the page -but unfortunately I can't.
Does it need the kids' names or their wage details? That's News of the World style. People can follow the links for that.
'Servants' should clarify as 'Servant scandal' or something similar - but is that at all fair? Whether under personal life, or anywhere else? It's far too much 'weight' for a story like this, imo. Maybe a using sub-heading under a section like "In the media" will 'detach' using its own heading a little, and make it less prominent.
Remember, as it's a 'gutter press' News of the World story, so is probably mostly garbage anyway! (there is policy on decent sources too)--Matt Lewis (talk) 00:08, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Matt Lewis please note It has a guardian source. Also please read my previous comments in this discussion, which answer your points. 00:46, 20 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chendy (talk • contribs) 00:46, 20 February 2008
I've read and noted everything. What have I missed? The Guardian article is fully cited and was not source of the story - the News of the World was. I don't understand what more we can say without turning Wikipedia into a newspaper and ourselves into journalists.
WP:No Point of View - Undue Weight (Policy)
WP:Wikipedia is not a News report (Policy)
WP:Let the facts speak for themselves (Policy)
Above is the relevant policy imo.--Matt Lewis (talk) 14:20, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Further 'Criticism of...' sections?

I've added the sub-heading 'Criticism of interviewing style' under 'Career'. I think further 'criticism of...' sub-heads are the way to go. Having 'Criticism' as a sole section is frowned upon on Wikipedia (rightly so imo, as few people deserve a whole section dedicated to negative comments - the issues should come under the relevant areas). --Matt Lewis (talk) 18:17, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

That looks all right to me. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 18:57, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
An alternative could be a "Praise and Criticism" section (rather than just "Criticism")- but I still prefer using the relevant sections. --Matt Lewis (talk) 13:12, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
Actually, why single out the information in a subsection? Why not just integrate it into the main section? Is that what you mean when you talk about "using the relevant sections"? — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 14:11, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] MA

"graduated with a Master of Arts (MA) degree"

As far as I'm aware every graduate of Oxford, Cambridge and Dublin Universities is entitled to a MA (Master of Arts) degree without further study. (See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master_of_Arts_%28Oxbridge_and_Dublin%29.) Did J.P. receive one of these or undertake a separate postgraduate degree?

Is it worth clarifying this point? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lexicog (talk • contribs) 16:25, 22 March 2008 (UTC)