Talk:Jeppesen
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I little question...according to this article, their HQ is in Denver, Colorado, but in the article referenced, the HQ is mentioned as being located in San Jose, California. Also, the company mentioned in the article is called Jeppesen International Trip Planning, and not Jeppesen Sanderson as in this article. Are these the same companies, or have someone mixed them up? Bjelleklang - talk 01:27, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
- "Jeppesen is headquartered in Englewood, Colo. and has offices located around the world.", from the official Jeppesen website. Englewood is in the Denver area, but I could change it to Englewood to be more specific. Jeppesen International Trip Planning is a name of one of their services, not the company. BabyNuke 10:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Seriously, just because a single article says the CIA bought charts from Jeppesen does not mean they are in the torture business. If I bought charts from Jeppesen, flew to Canada using those charts and dumped a corpse, does that make Jeppesen culpable?
- According to the New Yorker article, the relationship between Jeppesen and the CIA is much deeper than the purchase of some charts. No one is suggesting that Jeppesen is "culpable" only that they are reported to provide the logistics support for a controversial CIA program that involves kidnapping and torture. --Lee Hunter 21:12, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
- Whatever. And Caterpillar is responsible for use of its equipment by the IDF? This material does not belong here. Are we going to start noting every protestation against aerospace, aviation, and defense firms now because they have a client relationship with the government? —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 22:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
- As a matter of fact, WP does note the use of Caterpillar equipment by the IDF --Lee Hunter 23:42, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
- It's still agenda pushing. You make it seem like this is all Jeppesen does. Again, they sell maps and charts to anyone. That's their business. What is your beef with them? I question the relevance of this section. —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 00:21, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
- You write "You make it seem like this is all Jeppesen does". Actually, no I don't. The bulk of the article is a dry account of Jeppesen's business operations (that part could certainly be expanded). The part about their relationship with the CIA is a single paragraph and is based on what is very much a reliable source. The addition of "relevance" and "POV" tags to that section is peculiar, to the say the least, since the paragraph is very specifically about Jeppesen operations (i.e. relevant) and only contains factual information (i.e. NPOV). --Lee Hunter 02:53, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
- Whatever. And Caterpillar is responsible for use of its equipment by the IDF? This material does not belong here. Are we going to start noting every protestation against aerospace, aviation, and defense firms now because they have a client relationship with the government? —Joseph/N328KF (Talk) 22:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Torture Flights
Jeppeson did not just "sell charts" to the CIA for the torture flights. Selling charts is just one part of their business; they also provide complete end-to-end flight planning, and did so for the CIA. According to the New Yorker article, this specifically includes "flight plans, clearance to fly over other countries, hotel reservations, and ground-crew arrangements". The author also quotes Bob Overby, Jeppeson's managing director, as saying at a meeting, "We do all of the extraordinary renditions flights—you know, the torture flights. Let's face it, some of those flights end up that way...It certainly pays well."
Bob Overby is managing director of Jeppesen DataPlan Inc, a fairly small Jeppesen subsidiary in California. Calling him "Jeppeson's (sic) managing director" is at least misleading. You could as well call him Boeing's managing director then, since Jeppesen is a subsidiary of Boeing. I don't know whether the rest of the so-called facts are equally distorted. Since Jeppesen DataPlan is a world leader in trip planning, they surely know that they plan a lot of drug smuggling trips as well. Of course, they don't know which, but perhaps they should refuse to plan any trips from Latin America just to be sure.
This is not POV. It is an extremely serious allegation against a company in an internationally respected publication. As such, it clearly belongs in an article about the company. It is in fact likely to be the reason for the vast majority of Wikipedia searches for Jeppeson. It is in fact the other view, that this shouldn't be mentioned, because it might somehow embarrass the company, that is POV. \ Fnarf999 \ talk \ contribs \ 17:04, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
- However, please note that the New Yorker article does not quote Bob Overby, as stated, but rather quotes an unnamed former Jeppesen employee who recalled Bob Overby's statements. I am not opposed to the inclusion of this material, as a Jeppesen customer I find it interesting, but I do recommend that it be rewritten to more accurately describe that the New Yorker article is basically an accusation based on hearsay. Clearly, more needs to be written about the products and services actually offered by the company to put this topic into perspective. Kbmannon 18:14, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
The point is that Jeppesen did not engage in the torture. As a customer of Jeppesen, I think it falls to me to explain the aviation business to those that don't understand. A client calls Jeppesen's San Jose location and says "I am flying from here to there, make it happen". Jeppesen doesn't ask me (the client) if I am going to be selling drugs, hiring prostitutes, torturing people, or anything else about my personal business. What I do when I arrive on location, or inside my aircraft, is my business. They simply make it possible for my aircraft to get from one location to another. If you are also protesting those who provide fuel for the aircraft, the airports which allow them to land, the taxi drivers who take them to and from the airport, the guy who provides the bagels in the morning, etc, then at least you are being consistent. The comparison to flying to Canada mentioned above is still appropriate. If I hire Jeppesen to provide my charts, and do my end-to-end flight planning, but I conduct illegal business while on that trip, Jeppesen is not culpable.
Unless you can provide photos or other evidence of Jeppesen employees conducting the torture themselves, they are doing nothing wrong. They are a government contractor who does work for the government and many private companies as well. If the CIA trusts them to make a flight happen, I sure do. As does my business. If anything, this is an ad for Jeppesen. Anyone who understands the aviation industry understands that planning, permits, routing, etc has nothing to do with what our actual business and our personnel engage in. Its no different than hiring a travel agent to get you a train ticket around Europe, plan your hotels, and transportation. In fact, that is exactly what Jeppesen does. If you chose to engage in illegal business while on that European adventure, the travel agent is not responsible.
Having met Mr. Overby I can tell you it is much more likely that a disgruntled ex employee who was likely let go for valid reasons wanted to get revenge by defacing the company and slandering Mr. Overby than Mr. Overby having said any of the things attributed to him. He is a kind, gentle and above all professional man. Again, provide me with a recording of him saying any of these things and not an ex employee who likely holds a grudge making some statement in an unreliable magazine with questionable sources and I might give your argument a slight bit more weight. I don't know how to make it any more clear. You are wasting your time protesting Jeppesen when you should be going directly to the perpetrators of the alleged crime. Might as well be protesting the sky for letting them fly in it[[JFranz April 04,2007].
I have read the New Yorker article and it is true that the author does not quote Bob Overby but quotes an ex employee who is stating that Bob Overby said these things. At least this change needs to be made for the article to be accurate.
