Talk:Jenny (Doctor Who)

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Date: 20:50, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Race

<!-- NO MORE EDITING TO "TIME LORD". Should remain "Unknown" until the character is actually IN AN EPISODE THAT HAS AIRED. Stop the edit wars. -->

I added the above hidden note in the hopes that it will keep people from repeatedly editing in the Race of the Day. The character has not even aired yet, so unless you have some reference by a writer stating as a fact what her race is, it is unknown. Patience, people; the episode will air shortly. --Human.v2.0 (talk) 16:25, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

If you think that the message will make a difference, then you have more faith than me. Regardless, I commend your effort. TalkIslander 16:36, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't really, to be perfectly honest. It's just now I'll feel perfectly fine with leaving {{Vandalism1}} tags on the pages of people change the race and remove the message.
And trust me, there are probably few people less excited to see what the whole deal behind "Jenny" is. Waiting? Not really my favorite thing. --Human.v2.0 (talk) 16:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

David Tennant says "the same race as him, or something akin to it."~ZytheTalk to me! 19:16, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Plus she gives off the same regeneration energy Tennant did in The Christmas Invasion - Tphi (talk) 04:26, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Calling Jenny a Gallifreyan is as wrong as calling Cline or General Cobb an Earthling. They aren't from Earth. All three of these characters would be dubbed Messalinean, because they were born on that planet, but that doesn't properly differentiate Jenny (who's genetically descended from Time Lords) from the other two (who are cloned from human stock). The Doctor is from Gallifrey, which is the only thing that makes him Gallifreyan, just as Donna is from Earth which makes her an Earthling, or Terran if you prefer. Both Donna and The Doctor could perhaps be described as humanoid. However, The Doctor is not a human, like Donna. He's a Time Lord. This is why you can't call Jenny a Gallifreyan. She's not Gallifreyan. She's not from Gallifrey. She's never stepped foot on that planet. You can only refer to her as a Messalinean, a humanoid, or a Time Lady. In short, although at the moment I'm not contributing, I for one applaud these 'edit wars,' and hope they continue, until you all get it right. - ZachsMind (talk) 18:43, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

My, you do sit on a high and mighty throne don't you? Her ethnicity/race is Gallifreyan. David (talk) 18:51, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
My, you can't read can you Dave? Her ancestry may be from Gallifrey, but that doesn't make her Gallifreyan, any more than it makes me Scottish. - ZachsMind (talk) 19:18, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
I concur with Mr Jones. Mr Garland, you have unfortunately fallen into a trap of extrapolating an incorrect equivocal meaning by analogy from an existing example. Now, the way it works is this: you may use "Gallifreyan" to mean whatsoever you wish it to mean. However, its general-accepted meaning is just than: the generally-accepted one, i.e. what it is usually used to mean, which, in this case, refers to an (admittedly ill-defined) invented species, who originated on Gallifrey. The word "Gallifreyan" works like "human", in that a Gallifreyan is a member of said species and could have been born wherever, it is just a perhaps inconvenient and confusing coincidence that the species is named for its originating planet. The term is a fanon invention (although, notably, it is extremely widely accepted) to describe the overall species of which Time Lords form a part. The same theory (c.f. the Outsiders) holds that the Time Lords are merely a subculture of the Gallifreyan species (although they may be differentiated biologically in some way(s) due to their advanced technology). As such, there may be several criteria which a Gallifreyan must fulfil in order to be termed a "Time Lord(/Lady)". The problem, of course, lies in that official canon has not given us any such criteria. I do hope I have elucidated the point sufficiently. Yours, † DBD 19:16, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
And, by the way, you are a poor wikipedian indeed if you "applaud these edit wars". Edit wars are completely counter-purposive, and are to be avoided at all costs. † DBD 19:18, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
You said it yourself, DBD. It's a fanon creation. "Generally accepted" presumptions are not necessarily correct. I don't care about being popular. I'm just explaining what's correct. If it takes an edit war to get it right, wanting something to be right does not make one poor. - ZachsMind (talk) 19:32, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
I will admit to generally accepted presumptions not being necessarily correct, but the term Gallifreyan exists solely as a fanon creation. Therefore, if it is to be used at all, it is to be used in that sense and that sense only. † DBD 19:52, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
She is not from Gallifrey. She is not Gallifreyan. Usage of this 'fanon creation' may be popular but it is still misleading and therefore wrong. Perhaps the only acceptable term would be 'unknown,' until the canon provides a clearer picture. We simply don't know enough about her to use a definitive and conclusive term. Anything other than 'unknown' is simply too disputable, but please continue the petty bickering. I find it most entertaining. - ZachsMind (talk)
No, no, no no no. She *is* Gallifreyan, because she fits that term's definition. However, I concur in that we shouldn't present fanon as canon, so "Unknown" would likely be best. † DBD 20:20, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh for goodness sake - isn't it simple? Her RACE is Gallifreyan. Just like someone can be of Indian ethnicity but never actually have been to India. In the template it says "Race: ". What else can you put? ("Time Lord" perhaps - but it is not clear whether you need to have graduated from the Time Lords' Academy or not to attain this title.) David (talk) 21:48, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Further, ZachsMind, you seem to be mixing up race/ethnicity with nationality. I can be of Japanese ethnic background, but born and raised in Spain. What does that make me? Well, my ethnicity would be Japanese and my nationality Spanish (and possibly Japanese in addition). Going back to this case with Jenny, she is ethnically Gallifreyan/Time Lord. And frankly she doesn't have a nationality! David (talk) 21:52, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

For pete's sake... People, this is exactly why there are entries for both "Race" and "Home Planet". Why? Because there are individuals that are of a race born on another planet, or planets with more than one race, etc etc. To put this in a different light; is a Vulcan still a Vulcan if not born on Vulcan? Yes. This isn't even an ethnicity, this is literally a racial difference. Jenny's "race" as close as can be told is Gallifreyan/Time Lord. --Human.v2.0 (talk) 21:57, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree entirely. David (talk) 22:13, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Break

Cripes... OK, let's get the facts straight:

  • The Doctor = Time Lord
  • Father / daughter relationship
  • Same DNA (only resequensed)
  • Therefor same race/species as the Doctor
  • Equals to: Jenny = Time Lord

How much more simple could this be? Anything else is original research, or fan speculation at best. Let's stick to the provable and provided facts, people; this is not Wikia (no offence, but that is the place for these kind of discussions). — Edokter • Talk • 22:23, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

But you're missing the point. Are all Gallifreyans Time Lords? As it states elsewhere in Wikipedia - "It is also implied heavily in the series that there are those from Gallifrey who are not Time Lords". Time Lords are more just a species from Gallifrey. Hence the Doctor going on about the Time Lords having a shared history, suffering, etc. David (talk) 22:28, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Where does Wiki say that? The Shebogans in Invasion of Time aren't an implication! MartinSFSA (talk) 06:54, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
OK, got it, added a note, ta! MartinSFSA (talk) 09:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Jenny is not from Gallifrey her 'dad' is so therefore she cant really be Gallifreyan unless she states that she 'is' which in this case nope not yet. i agree with edokter completly just that the fact of the matter she does not know much about her time lord heritage. Pathfinder2006 (talk) 22:34, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Exactly. We know from past episodes that not all Gallifreyans are Time Lords, thus she is not necessarily a Time Lord. We also know that she was not 'born' on Gallifrey (if, indeed, she was 'born' at all), hence it could be said that she's not Gallifreyan. Hence the only thing we can say about her race is that we don't know it! Anything else is OR. TalkIslander 22:35, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
What? Her race is clear - the same as the Doctor's. Which is either Time Lord and/or Gallifreyan, depending on what you believe. Where you were born does not give you your race. David (talk) 22:36, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
It is speculated, but has no deciding information one way or the other, and therefor it is easier to blanket Gallifreyans as Time Lords barring any information otherwise. The Doctor's reference to shared suffering and the like can be considered akin to many real-world cases of statements to the effect of "you're not really Irish because this-and-that" and the like.
It's slightly odd that you blank it to "Unknown" yet right here you put "Equals to: Jenny = Time Lord". It's also arguably just as much original research to assume that her race would be anything other than the logical race for a reproduction-level alteration of the Doctor's DNA.
At any rate it seems you're still confusing "Gallifreyan" as a culture with "Gallifreyan" as a genetic structure. Genetically, there is no reason to think that she is not the standard for a Gallifreyan, and there is even less to assume that a Time Lord has a different genetic structure from that; does a Freemason have different DNA from me? --Human.v2.0 (talk) 22:43, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
"Implied" is more speculative then sticking to the given facts. As far as the Whoniverse is concerned, yes, all people from Gallifrey are Time Lords. Those "implied" not to be could have come from anywhere. Plus, the term "Gallifreyan" was never actually used by the production staff as far as I know (please prove me wrong), making the term only a fan invention. — Edokter • Talk • 22:48, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
You're missing the point. For starters, "Gallifreyan" is not the racial stat being argued (or if someone is argueing it, then they're just plain wrong). Next, I'm using "Gallifreyan" as a way to distinguish a possible variation between the populace of Gallifrey between the normal folk and the Time Lords. Since there is no evidence otherwise, anyone of the Time Lord race (not birhplace. the actual race itself, which presumably evolved there just as Humans evolved here) is a Time Lord until something states otherwise. And since we are talking about a species, it does not matter where or how an individual was birthed, it is simple genetics. Jenny might not have all the same capabilities of the Doctor, but there is nothing to say that this isn't normal for an untrained Gallifreyan/Time Lord child.
Jenny has (barring any future information) pure Time Lord genetics that is simply slightly randomized (in the same way of normal reproduction, as mentioned in the episode itself. Therefor any race/status other than Time Lord is the unsourced speculation, seeing as how there isn't currently any un-speculated and clearly stated difference between the group we know as "Time Lords" and the rest of the population. --Human.v2.0 (talk) 22:56, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
OK hold on, from what I can understand, you are in favor of "Time Lord"? Then what are we bickering about? (Or were you replying to David?) I listed all the verifiable information above, concluding that Time Lord is the only possible race for Jenny. — Edokter • Talk • 23:12, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
I think I may have confused things somewhat with this slightly misleading edit summary - sorry 'bout that. I still maintain that we just don't know enough about Jenny to give her a 'race', but it seems consensus is against me. Hmm. TalkIslander 23:16, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
This whole "break" was caused by you (1) reveryting "Time Lord" to "Unknown" on the page (2) creating this "Break" section directly after "Time Lord" had been agreed upon by more than one (3) creating this "break" section with an elaborate argument that I assumed was for something other than "I know you decided on Blah, but this is my argument as to why you really need to decide on Blah."
Also, I am not "bickering". For starters, I am not my grandmother and therefor have never and will never "bicker". :P In fact, twice now I've had to resort to leaving editor's notes directing people making changes to-and-fro over here in the express hope of having to think about this whole issue as little as possible tonight.
Now, I'm going to leave "Unknown" and the editor's note there for the moment. That will give people time to come on with thier own version of the Race entry, and hopefully direct them over here. If they have anything other than "Time Lord" they can bring it up here. I can't personally see a valid reason, but it's good to give the chance.
Then I'll change it to "Time Lord" with a new note directing people here if they want to change it.
Then, I shall go pour myself a pint or three. --Human.v2.0 (talk) 23:20, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Minor note for your future reference. David had also been one agreeing with "Time Lord" directly before and above your creation of the "break" section. --Human.v2.0 (talk) 23:21, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, Gallifreyan/Time Lord. I believe there is a difference (ie Time Lords are Gallifreyans with a qualification to be Time Lords from the Academy). But her race is definitely one of those two things. David (talk) 23:38, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
I still don't think "Gallifeyan" is a word ever used within the series, or by the producers, by which virtue it cannot be used on Wikipedia. — Edokter • Talk • 23:43, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
I actually reverted "Gallifreyan" back to "Time Lord", not "Unknown", you changed it to "Unknown". Check the History, I think you misunderstood me. If the consensus is indeed for Time Lord, then by all means let's put that back. — Edokter • Talk • 23:38, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
I also agree that there is an almost clearly stated difference between Time Lords and Gallifreyans, but this is a topic that has only been barely alluded to. This issue is mentioned on several of the relevant pages, but/and until new material comes out Time Lord should remain the referened race for all the various characters. --Human.v2.0 (talk) 23:47, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Just wondering but wouldnt Jenny be classed as a 'Cloned Time Lord' or 'Time Lord Clone. Both could point towards the normal Time Lord page. This being that she is indeed a clone and misses one of the usual time-lord traits at least (Changing look when regenerating) Jamesbuc —Preceding comment was added at 06:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
You're making the assumption that she regenerated - didn't look at all like a regeneration to me, more like the residual energy that the Doctor had in The Christmas Invasion. TalkIslander 11:31, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Not sourcable enough to be taken as fact, but there are multiple references to the Time Lord hierarchy having some control over regenerations, which hints that regenerations might be the Time Lord equivalent of a "diploma" or the like. Or a driver's license. Or something. I dunno, but it is certainly hinted to not be an entirely innate feature of Time Lord biology.
Besides that, there's the fact that she is not a clone. If you wanted to get technical, she likely falls into the catagory of a hermaphroditicly reproduced organism. Her DNA is not identical to the Doctor's any more than you are identical to your own father's DNA. Without going too far into the science behind the episode's technology, the machines are not "cloneing" so much as using samples of base DNA and putting it through the same randomiations of normal reproduction and then spitting out quick-grown bodies. --Human.v2.0 (talk) 14:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Right, let's just sum it up. If you "cloned" (or whatever Jenny was) a human on another planet, they'd be human. Same works for Time Lords. I don't see what the bickering is about LuGiADude (talk) 15:08, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
And to make it less disputable, take a dog, if you "cloned" a dog on a different planet would it be a dog? YES.LuGiADude (talk) 15:10, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Since when is 'dog' a race?? TalkIslander 15:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia's own definition of Time Lord:

"It is implied (in The Invasion of Time and The Deadly Assassin) that the terms Gallifreyan and Time Lord may not be synonymous, and that Time Lords are simply that subset of Gallifreyans who have achieved the status of Time Lord via achievement in the Gallifreyan collegiate system; in the episode The Sound of Drums The Doctor talks of children of Gallifrey which implies that children are Gallifreyan before they are Time Lords. Romana and the Doctor have also referred to Time Tots, or infant Time Lords, and (in Smith and Jones) the Doctor refers his compatriots and he playing with Röntgen bricks in the nursery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_Lord

The generally accepted premise is that "Time Lord" is a title that is earned/bestowed upon a Galifreyan, therefore Jenny cannot be one. The Doctor specifically stated that she was NOT a Time Lord because she lacked the shared history and suffering of his people. Therefore, the only choices remaining are Galifreyan and Unknown. Unknown is the more responsible choice because calling her a "Time Lord" is inconsistent with our current understanding of Time Lords vs Gallifreyans and The Doctor's own statements on the subject. WaveRunningNaked (talk) 16:11, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

We cannot cite ourself, can we? The above paragraph is dangerously leaning toward original research anyway. Also, the Doctor did not explicitly say that Jenny was not a Time Lord; only what being a Time Lord curtails. The "generally accepted premise" does not help us much if it cannot be sourced. Until it can, we have to make due with the information given to us, namely that Time Lords come from Gallifrey, that the Doctor is a Time Lord, and Jenny is his daughter. — Edokter • Talk • 16:23, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Summary of my notes in WaveRunningNaked's talk page...
  • The key word in that quote is "implied".
  • For the purpose of Wiki (and for that matter the in-character universe) "Time Lord" refers to the species as a whole, even if future material will show that the in-planet society itself only used it in the way we might use "Senator" or "Professor".
  • Jenny is genetically the same as any pure-blooded Time Lord offspring that the Doctor would have. It is possible that any differences (which have not yet actually been made apparent, for that matter. if Jenny's lack of full regeneration can be explained by her still being in the "grace period" similar to when the Doctor regenerated his hand, there is zero reason to assume she is any different than a similarly unskilled and uneducated Time Lord child)
"Time Lord", for lack of a better explanation, is being used in the same way "African American" might be used in the United States. It is referring to the genetic ancestory. The Doctor's statemens of her not sharing the same tragedy and the like is akin to an individual being of African descent, yet not actually be from Afica. Cultural upbringing and knowledge is not relevant to this designation of "Time Lord". --Human.v2.0 (talk) 16:29, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it's just a metaphor. Fairly nice metaphor but whatever. Since when did the Doctor actually ever know what he's talking about? Hehe

Quote:

Since when is 'dog' a race?? TalkIslander 15:22, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, dog isn't a race but that's not the point, if something is cloned somewhere else it's the same, or more or less the same as the original. So Jenny is a Time Lord. Hence, the Doctor is no longer Last of The Time Lords (even though he doesn't know Jenny's alive)

[edit] Resolution

Ok. If Jenny was cloned using the Doctor's DNA, that means she is the same species/race. We can all agree on that much, regardless of whether we can label said species. Am I right? One's species and biological race is decided by their genetic heritage, yes?

Her father, the Doctor, is a Time Lord. But, are all people of Gallifrey Time Lords? We don't know. So what do we call them? Simple. As per the TV movie, the term Gallifreyan is canonical. Approximately 42 minutes into the Telemovie, the Doctor describes a memory of his father and himself lying on the grass on a warm Gallifreyan night.

Grace: "Maybe you're the result of some weird genetic experiment."
Doctor: "I don't think so."
Grace: "Well, you have no recollection of family."
Doctor: "No. No, no no no, wait, wait. I remember I... I'm with my father, we're lying back in the grass, it's a warm Gallifreyan night..."
Grace: "Gallifreyan?"

Therefore, the term Gallifreyan now has a bases in canonical fact, used to describe something or someone originating from Gallifrey; and Jenny's biological species originated on Gallifrey. If one were to clone a Terran on Mars, it would still be a Terran - whether it be a human, a dog, a cat, or a spotted toad. It's still Terran in origin. She is not necessarily a Time Lord, no. And her planet of origin is still Messaline.


Gallifrey = Planet. Jenny did not come from Gallifrey. She's not Gallifreyan :O I understand what you're saying but it makes more sense for her to be called a 'Time Lord' than a 'Gallifreyan'.LuGiADude (talk) 10:57, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Actually, sorry, Gallifreyan would technically be correct. Time Lords are not a race, they are a group of Gallifreyans with no physical differences from other Gallifreyans. Like how you could say 'Politicians' lol isn't a race, they are a group of humans =\

I don't see 'Gordon Brown, Race: Politician', do you? This is why we should change 'The Doctor' to Gallifreyan. LuGiADude (talk) 11:05, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Wrong: see "Smith and Jones" Martha: But what sort of species? It's not every day you can ask that! The Doctor: Time Lord. Therefore the Doctor describes his species as "Time Lord" not Gallifreyan. Ever. Gallifreyan being use as a species name is Fanon and Tie-In product only. I'm not going to enter into the argument beyond saying it's probably easier just to leave Jenny described as a Time Lord, which is the closest thing to a species category that she is given on screen. --GracieLizzie (talk) 00:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
No. No no no no no no NO. Quite frankly, I'm getting sick of this whole argument (is it visibile? :P ). Even in "End of the World" the Doctor is scanned and the result is "Time Lord", not "Gallifreyan". Never, to my knowledge, has that word been used in reference to the residents of the planet. And for that matter, the "rebels" that are mentioned (In what, 6 episodes at the absolute upper limit?) are far from the norm, and rebellion against a society does not change one's race. Time Lord is what the members of this species are referred to, even by outcasts like the Doctor or the Master. I personally welcome the day when all of this confusion will be cleared (Unlikely as it is to ever happen.), but until then (And perhaps even after.) the Doctor and therefor his pure-race "daughter" Jenny are "Time Lords". It's just that neither one of them are fairly typical examples of the race as a whole.
I'm sorry if I come across as rude, it's just that there are pages of this here that you can read and bringing up the same talking points over and over again is getting frustrating. --Human.v2.0 (talk) 01:17, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Lol you geeks and your pedantisms. A normal viewer of the episode will be like "Whut? She Time Lord cause she daughter of Doctor". If you listened to your conversation, you would see how stupid and pedantic it is. All this ultraspecific Gallifreyan initiation to become a Time lord bollocks? Doesn't Donna say she's a time lord anyway? Seriphyn (talk) 18:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Even in "End of the World" the Doctor is scanned and the result is "Time Lord", not "Gallifreyan". Did you see the result on the scan thing? NO. And I forget if the tree woman said it, but even so there's no evidence that the scan actually said that, the tree woman could've been LYING! Er, anyway....LuGiADude (talk) 19:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
"Time Lord" is the exact phrasing that was used by her in the episode. It is only slightly more likely that it read "Gallifreyan" than it read "Guy in the Big Blue Box". It's possible, but there are times when you have to look at a scene and say "a cigar is just a cigar". While it is possible to extrapolate different meanings and intentions, it becomes increasingly unlikely.
As for my "pedantisms", perhaps you're forgetting that this show existed for many years and many forms before 2005. I'm no more so going to ignore that material in reference to a Wiki article than I would ignore any other knowledge simply because the other person might not be familiar with it. --Human.v2.0 (talk) 17:26, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Right, ill start by saying, what if there is more than one race of humanoids that come from Gallifrey? lets say there were 5 humanoid species on the planet Gallifrey, on a whole all the species could be referred to as 'Gallifreyan', for example every species on Earth (meaning all animals/insects) can be referred to as 'Earthlings' or another synonym of that, so going back to 'End of the World' bit, there is a high probability that the screen displayed 'Time Lord' even if we did not see it, because its a bit of an assumption for the 'tree woman' to just say 'Time Lord' if the screen displayed 'Gallifreyan'. Anyway back on the Jenny subject and linking in with my previous comments, wouldnt she be more of a 'Time Lord' than a 'Gallifreyan' as although she does not originate from the Time Lord's original home planet, shes still the same species as the Doctor and as many have said, the Doctor mentions his species as 'Time Lord' which would mean Jenny is equally a 'Time Lord', for another example in many other sci-fi's including Doctor Who, Humans have collonised other planets, (i.e. Messaline in Doctor Who) but always despite which planet they are born on there still called 'Humans' and are of the same 'race' and 'species' as the Humans from Earth, which would also imply that Jenny is a Time Lord not 'Gallifreyan'. Maxtitan (talk) 18:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Visual Cues

Taking to new section for new topic.

She possesses two hearts and her ability to regenerate is currently unknown. During the episode, Jenny was shot and killed, then later resurrected by unknown means. Since she did not change appearance, visual cues suggest that The Source repaired her compared to regeneration.

OK, what is your basis for this last bit? I'll admit that I was expecting some kind of Spock-esque possibility from the start, but what visual cues? The same visual effect (and sounds; both effects and music theme; if I'm not mistaken) were used as in the previous times in the new series that "Time Lord Energy" was expelled. I think you might just be mistaken with that part. I agree with the inclusion of the rest of it, in addition to the fact that the methods of her regeneration/ressurection are not clear at this time. --Human.v2.0 (talk) 16:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and an IP address comes in for the score, metaphorically speaking. Referenced and covering most of the talk points.--Human.v2.0 (talk) 16:56, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Time Lord vs Time Lady

Does anyone have any sources stating that female time lords are called Time Ladies? Bear in mind that women can be Lords too. Why should a race name imply gender? After all there is no such thing as a humaness! --Cameron (t|p|c) 11:41, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree. We need a source that female Time Lords are caled "Time Lady". As far as I can remember, the producers never used that term, making it a fan-coined word that should be avoided. — Edokter • Talk • 12:12, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
City of Death, about three minutes into episode one--Doctor describes the sketch as that of a "Time Lady". MartinSFSA (talk) 06:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
Why should/would a race imply gender? Keep in mind that many, many existing languages do just this. Mentioned in a joke in Y The Last Man, all it takes is the arrival of a single male to the previously all-female Canada to change the male/female variations of the language to refer to Canada as masculine instead of feminine. And from what is seen of the Time Lords previously, this seems to be just the kind of thing that they would either put in from the beginning, or just plain old not care about. --Human.v2.0 (talk) 22:50, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Romana is referred to in the original series as a Time Lady. The BBC website has several references to her being such. [[1]] --Jeffro77 (talk) 11:29, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Also this episodes fact file.[[2]] "In case you're wondering, a female Time Lord is called a Time Lady." though personally I find the term clunky. Also the fact file forgot President Flavia and the Rani! --GracieLizzie (talk) 19:56, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
If the BBC says a female Time Lord is called a Time Lady, then it's true, your memories and previous episodes don't count at all. BBC > All when it comes to Dr. Who LuGiADude (talk) 19:48, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I would say that the word Time Lord is used as both the name for their species and a title. By that, I mean that both male and female are of the species Time Lords, but males have the title Time Lord, and females have the title Time Lady. --Flib (talk) 00:14, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Natural or Man-made

If she is considered to be a time lord( or lady which ever it may be), she certainly not natually one as she was created in a cloning machine. Therefore, if she is included as a time lord, it should also note that she is technically artificial. Jughead.z(1) (talk) 23:15, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

It is, in the main body of text. David (talk) 23:40, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New Byzantine Calendar

I've broken up the year/month/date with commas, since that info was given in the show. What we don't know is what year that year matches up with to the current calendar, or even what the month/day system is. However it is pointlessly confusing to leave it all as one number block, especially without a specific explanation in the wiki. --Human.v2.0 (talk) 15:26, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

No such info was given. Donna went with an assumption and the Doctor recognized a specific calendar — he didn't confirm how that calendar worked, or that it worked at all like she had assumed. So it should be left exactly as given on screen, i.e. 60120724 in the New Byzantine calendar † DBD 17:47, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

The 24th was confirmed to be the day, which would match the month, I hardly see a reason of why the first four numbers arent the date in years, modern ships logs have four-digits in the year listing. Space travel would be that much different. The date in years would just be where ever the New Byzantine calendar started, or it could be another form of the calendar which uses B.C. and A.D., like the Gregorian calendar, yet starts on the same date as the julian. 60120724 is just too confusing to be put in an infobox, the calender can be listed, but I'm sure that it is around the 61st century, speficilly, July 24th 6012. Jughead.z(1) (talk) 03:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

If you take the information for the Byzantine calendar, you'd also have to assume, that year 1 in this calender is not the same one as with the current one used by us. It could be 5509 BC and thus make the year something around 540 AD (which is entirely possibly as nothing states that those humans are from Earth). So we could speculate quite a bit but unless we can prove how the New Byzantine Calender works, we can only include what we know for sure. --SoWhy Talk 10:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Did you notice that the Doctor said calender, not the date in which it is set. Even if it is, it would be list of the page as the New Byzantine Calendar, but I think the date is quite obivous. It is aslo the NEW Byzantine calendar, not the past one. Jughead.z(1) (talk) 02:34, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
And thus we don't know how it works. My example was merely trying to point out that fact. And if we don't know that the first numbers imply the year (and nothing in the episode says so), we cannot write "61st century" or "year 6012". --SoWhy Talk 07:35, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Presumed

Jenny may be a time lord, but no one has confirmed this. There has been speculation and mentions in the show. There is a high chance she is, but this isn't confirmed. SimsFanTalk to Me • Commons 15:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Please take note of the +50% of the Discussion page specifically on this topic above.--Human.v2.0 (talk) 15:53, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Healing rather than regenation

Just prior to the scene where she comes back alive, they have a shot of the Doctor's severed hand in the jar. i.e the one which grew back due to the Doctor having healing powers shortly after regenerating. Is it possibly this was suggesting she had similar healing powers almost shortly after being born? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.97.205.75 (talk) 22:58, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, this is a possible speculation, but for the time being this is only speculation. --Human.v2.0 (talk) 23:11, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Also the Doctor knew how to control Regeneration which we cannot assume for Jenny. It could just have been the terraforming device that revived her. I reworded the part of the article that suggested Regeneration to be more neutral (as we do not know what caused it). Please improve further if necessary. --SoWhy Talk 10:36, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I am fed up with the reverting of my edits, please lets discuss it... I think the following paragraph from the article is not neutral and implies something that's OR:

When Jenny revives in the closing scenes, energy is released from her mouth in a similar fashion as the recently regenerated
Doctor during "The Christmas Invasion". Unlike The Doctor, Jenny does not change appearance before the energy was released.
The details of her revival not mentioned on screen or on commentary, thus her ability to regenerate is left unclear.

It positively implies that what happened to Jenny was similar to the regeneration of the Doctor itself in "The Christmas Invasion". That's quite OR imho. Also, all my attempts to add that the energy looks like the one from the terraforming device have been reverted with a OR claim. Either we remove both and reword the paragraph to imply nothing or allow other facts from the episode to be included into the article. --SoWhy Talk 19:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Fact of the matter is it was a similar thing. It is a fact it looks similar. LuGiADude (talk) 19:41, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
It is original research to conclude so. Perhaps I think the special effects aren't THAT similar. We can only discuss if it was intended to be similar if a writer says it was.~ZytheTalk to me! 20:45, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
It's fact that it looks similar to aforementioned part in The Christmas invasion but it's also fact that it looks like the terraforming gases. So why not include that fact in the article? Either we remove both ideas as OR or we include both... --SoWhy Talk 21:05, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Both need a source, yes.~ZytheTalk to me! 11:55, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I can understand wanting a source to compare the energy discharge that comes out of her mouth to the one that came from the Source, but striking down comparisons to The Christmas Invasion by calling it 'original research' is like requiring a source to declare that she has blond hair.--MythicFox (talk) 12:08, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Not a stub any more

I'd say it might have even reached Good Article status myself but one thing it isn't any more is a stub. --GracieLizzie (talk) 13:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I would certainly say it's no stub. --SoWhy Talk 21:30, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Smaller role" in The Unicorn and the Wasp

Did the source (or any source) mention which character Moffet auditioned for? I'd say it's safe to assume it was Miss Redmond (the Unicorn), but obviously that can't be mentioned unless it is confirmed. U-Mos (talk) 08:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Do you have any source at all that she did audition for a role in The Unicorn and the Wasp? --SoWhy Talk 11:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
No, but the article does. That's the whole point. It's cited to DWM issue 390. My question is does it mention which character she auditioned for. U-Mos (talk) 11:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Father Time

It's probably worth pointing out in the article that the eighth Doctor had a daughter (Miranda) in the BBC novels, just another tv development uncredited to its source. MartinSFSA (talk) 07:00, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

If those novels are to be considered canon is, as usual, subject to debate. If she was a biological daughter (which I don't know never having read those novels) the Doctor mentions several times that he lost his family in the Time War. Or was she cloned like Jenny? --SoWhy Talk 07:38, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
The canonicity is irrelevant as we're not debating that he has two daughters or that she's the "real" daughter (or are we?). But giving the credit to Lance Parkin for the idea that the Doctor has a daughter is quite relevant. She was apparently adopted, even if she was biological (the Virgin novels have that the Time Lords are all genetic constructs from "looms") then it's still original to Lance as the Doctor's offspring could have been male. Or Other. As you mention it, the single greatest uncredited concept out of the novels is the Time War itself. The 900 pound gorilla no one wants to mention is the Time War's originator, Laurence Miles, is persona non grata now the show's such a success. Once again, just to be absolutely clear, this is not an invitation to debate canon (although I can enjoy that), merely conceptual credit. MartinSFSA (talk) 08:41, 4 June 2008 (UTC)