Talk:Jehu Eyre

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[edit] hoax?

As this article has been created multiple times by hoaxsters, making exaggerated claims about Jehu Eyre and other members of the Eyre family, I have tagged it as a possible hoax. Please remove anything which isn't well-sourced (genealogy sites are generally not reliable sources). Rhobite 05:19, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I'm the user named SwedishConqueror. This article was not very well sourced when I began editing it, but I have added a large number of links (I think at least twice what the previous user had). In locating these references, I have learned a good deal about this person (for example: I never knew that he was a French and Indian War veteran, nor has any history professor ever mentioned it). Anyway, please look at my sources and remove the hoax tag as soon as possible.

SwedishConqueror 05:24, 25 January 2007 (UTC)SwedishConqueror

I'd prefer if someone with more of a background in historical research than I have could look over the article and vet it before the tag is removed. While many of your sources appear to be good, I'm concerned about the use of genealogy sites, and claims which are obviously exaggerated, such as Jehu Eyre's role in the crossing of the Delaware. This article was deleted in July, and it wasn't re-created until now, so there is really no urgency to remove the hoax tag here. Rhobite 05:38, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

It is clearly stated right here [1] that Jehu crossed the Delaware with Washington, and in National Guard Magazine no less [2]. That is documented fact, not exaggeration.

SwedishConqueror 05:44, 25 January 2007 (UTC)SwedishConqueror

I don't really trust the accuracy of National Guard Magazine. At most, this information should be qualified with "An article in National Guard Magazine claims..." Rhobite 12:59, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

You don't trust the accuracy of a magazine that is published by the U.S. National Guard? What possible reason could our military have to make up this kind of information? I have found another source placing him at the Crossing of the Delaware, and I will post it shortly.

SwedishConqueror 16:57, 25 January 2007 (UTC)SwedishConqueror

Here: [3] This is from the New York Historical Sociey and confirms Jehu Eyre's presence, as an artillery colonel, at the Battle of Trenton alongside George Washington. I don't know a more credible source to give you than that.

SwedishConqueror 17:02, 25 January 2007 (UTC)SwedishConqueror

The relevant AFD is at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/George Eyre. I have posted a notice at U.S. military history task force talk asking knowledgeable editors to take a look. - BanyanTree 21:11, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I would go ahead and see if you could possibly find a better source. We do have some guidelines on what sources are reliable sources, at WP:RS. Go and give that a read over, I am really not qualified to tell if the sources given are good or not, but genealogy sites don't tend to be the best of sources. If you have questions ping me on my talk page again. Cheers! —— Eagle 101 ^{(Need help?)} 05:07, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

National Guard Magazine is published by the National Guard Association of the United States, it is not affiliated with the military. I'm not saying it's the worst source, but it's certainly not authoritative on Revolutionary War history. I can easily see a magazine of its kind embellishing claims or publishing unverified information. Also, his presence at Trenton does not make him a "close friend and confidant" or "adviser" to George Washington. I don't think any of the sources justify those claims. Also, there appears to be a discrepancy regarding how he could have died in 1781 and been buried in Laurel Hill Cemetery over 50 years before its founding. These discrepancies and embellishments call the entire article into question. Rhobite 05:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

SwedishConqueror, By what I can see you are definatly giving it your best to write a decent article on this guy. The best thing I can think for you to do is to find any extraordinary claims, and makes sure that you have extraordinary sources. That would be a good start. Right now it looks like Rhobite has a few issues with your sourcing, so see if you can find a second or even better third source to back up the claims. Our guidelines on reliable sources indicate that multiple sources can be preferable. Cheers! —— Eagle 101 ^{(Need help?)} 06:09, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Genealogical micro-trivia

(Moved here from my Talk page. ME) I am reposting the information about Jehu Eyre's ancestry as a legitimate piece of historical fact (not every guy walking down the street is descended from a royal dynasty of Britain). Please explain why this documented sentence is original research (on the talk page) or refrain from removing it. Thank you. SwedishConqueror 20:49, 8 February 2007 (UTC)SwedishConqueror

With regard to User:SwedishConqueror's insistence on including the following:

"Jehu was also descended, through his father, from King Ethelred of Wessex, who was an ancestor of Jehu's great-great-great grandfather, Sir Gervaise Eyre[4]. The Eyres were subsequently blood relations to to all of Ethelred's descendants, including, ironically, King George III."

First, the source is not reliable; it's a posting to a genealogy e-mail list, "NJBURLIN-L" (see WP:CITE for guidance on what constitutes a reliable source). Secondly, remote genealogy of this kind is in any case trivia, and has no obvious relevance to the article; your attempt at justification, thirdly ("Being descended from a royal house is not trivia; it no doubt bolstered their position, to say the least. Similarly, the fact that George III was a relation to them is interesting historical fact.") is speculation, original research, not to mention depending on Eyre's being aware of this supposed genealogy &— something which isn't suggested even in your source. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:15, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

(Moved here from my Talk page ME) The source is reliable; it comes from Volume XI of "Documents Relating to Colonial New Jersey." Moreover, the website on which the information is posted hasn't been updated since 1998--well before anyone would have thought to write a Wikipedia article about Jehu Eyre.

And even if he hadn't known that he was a relative of George III (highly unlikely given his illustrious and well-recorded family history), it is still at the very least quite interesting that one of the Colonies' most ardent patriots was himself of royal birth. That is the very definition of irony. SwedishConqueror 02:12, 9 February 2007 (UTC)SwedishConqueror

1. I'm not sure of the relevance of the date of the archive, but it is only a posting to an e-mail list. It's what someone once said was in a book.
2. What's likely or unlikely is still original research. And that someone in the eighteenth century held views that seem at odds with his distant ancestry is hardly surprising (most people would be in that position; most of the English noblemen with whom he disagreed came from families that were not noble [or even ignoble] when Eyre's family was royal).
3. With reference to your earlier claim, most people walking the streets are probably related to a royal line; that's how genealogy works. It's almost certain that everyone now alive shares a common ancestor. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 11:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)