Talk:Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Attacks on Masson

The amount of detailed criticism in the body of the article seems highly disproportionate in length and heavily POV, so I'm suggesting removing them until they can be summarised. While these criticisms may be legitimate, the article contains little if any rebuttal, and for this reason the article as it stands does not meet a good article standard. Mostlyharmless

Freud’s epigons hate Masson, who has written one of the most searing exposés of psychoanalysis: “Final Analysis” [1]. I fully agree with Mostlyharmless so I tried to balance a bit the biased article with a paragraph with a referent to Masson’s web site. However, the article still needs a lot of NPOV correction! —Cesar Tort 02:30, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Deletion

The only way that occurs to me to immediately make the article NPOV is to delete the Malcolm’s court case affair. It is not really germane to Masson’s critical work on psychoanalysis, much less to his humanitarian work on animals —Masson’s bestsellers!

Similarly, the article’s paragraph on Masson’s The Assault on Truth was totally biased against Masson (and contained self-reference to Ferenczi). There were two ways to make it NPOV: to present Masson’s case or to reduce it to a minimum. Provisionally I chose the later. If anyone wants to revert the complete paragraph, a balancing paragraph should be added as well.

Of course, after my deletions the short article is even shorter. It needs to be expanded (Masson’s very important books, Against Therapy and Final Analysis are not even mentioned in the text!). I’ll try to do it in the future but for the moment I just want to get rid of the NPOV tag. —Cesar Tort 05:54, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Some praise of Final Analysis

Actually this so-called praise [2] is plainly the truth about that excellent book.

All guru admirers don't like their gurus to be criticized, even when criticism is based on truth and motivated by seeking truth.
How can their hearts and minds be opened for genuine criticism??
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.73.59.55 (talk • contribs)
Best of all: the 'guru' is giving good example by having an open heart and mind him/herself.
When he talks like Mr. Schiffer (Masson's training analyzer) people will not be encouraged (page 34): Schiffer said I only wanted to go out of a desire for vengeance, and if I did, he would see to it that I lost the battle. He would claim I was paranoid, and delusional, and that I was inventing it all. He would calmly deny my story. He said, "And whom, Masson, do you think they will believe? You, a first-year candidate, not even a medical doctor, or me, Irvine Schiffer, training analyst, and an officer of the Toronto Psychoanalytic Institute?" 88.73.38.110 19:01, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Of course, what Mr. Schiffer said about his planned reactions to Masson's wish of sharing his experiences with Schiffer with somebody else, would most probably have come true. It's like Jones did with Ferenczi, in some way. And it is also true that most people believe to the words uttered by the person highest in hierarchy (the hierarchy they 'belong' to.) 88.73.37.170 07:45, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi 88.73.37.170: I know you are new to Wiki. May I tell you that these talk pages are for editorial discussions only, i.e., discussing the content or planned changes of content in articles?
If you want to communicate with me about Masson or subjects unrelated to editorial changes may I suggest do it in my subpage?: User_talk:Cesar_Tort/discussion. Also, please log in as I advised at the bottom of this page. Respectfully, Cesar Tort 08:07, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Ave Cesar, yes, you may tell me that, thank you. Maybe this topic is going to result in a planned change of content of this article. How do you know?? Until I myself don't know I am going to continue here and not on your subpage, with your kind allowance, of course. Perhaps I am going to log in when I find a suitable name, perhaps not. 88.73.128.101 09:44, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi again 88.73.37.170. It’s easier to talk to a name than to a dry number, especially for personal communications when you have your own user page.
I totally agree with you in what you say about that bastard called Schiffer. However, it’s just barely related to editorial changes today. We are supposed to focus on that (for instance my two questions to you at the bottom of this page). —Cesar Tort 17:42, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Rv quotations

I reverted the quotations of Final Analysis because they’re totally misleading. As stated above, Masson’s book is an exposé of the cult called psychoanalysis. The quotations suggest instead that Masson is a fan of analysis! —Cesar Tort 22:49, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I think you are wrong. Have you read them attentively? The quotations stated that Masson has been a fan of what he imagined to be the aim(s) of analysis; beautiful aims indeed that he wanted to stand for.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.73.... (talk • contribs)
Most probably analysis —in reality— stands for paternal authority unquestioned. 88.73.34.170 09:14, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
In this article you can read about the idea that the father is always right and the child (or some other powerless peoples) is always wrong, about the idea, that criticizing the 'father' is a sign of 'illness': [3]. No mother there, though. 88.73.34.170 09:21, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I also removed defunct external links; articles of non-English web sites and duplicated sites. —Cesar Tort 23:00, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you removed a lot of stuff.
I do hope that you don't remove this quotation, Cesar, the new one.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.73.... (talk • contribs)

Emotions and Truth

"I rarely lose my temper, but at this rudeness, and after listening to Kriegel's illiterate seminars over several weeks, I could no longer control myself. I jumped up, clenched my fists, and confronted him. You haven’t taught us a thing. You have no business teaching at all, you miserable, ignorant fool." (page 111, FINAL ANALYSIS). This is fun, I enjoyed this story, made me laugh with pleasure.

I wonder whether Freud has ever written anything about emotions.88.73.22.241 20:32, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

To understand the Vienna quack’s lack of empathy toward his clients, besides Masson’s books you may take a look at Thomas Szasz’s Anti-Freud and The Myth of Psychotherapy. Also, the first critical biography of Freud is now available: Louis Berger’s Freud: Darkness in the Midst of Vision —stupendous readings! —Cesar Tort 22:55, 29 June 2006 (UTC)
I've looked for the book of Breger at Amazon, see what they have written about it: [4] 88.73.22.241 20:29, 30 June 2006 (UTC) ****

Dalai Lama is very interested in brain and mind and compassion/empathy and wisdom/science; don't know whether and how he connected emotions with truth and viceversa [5] Austerlitz 88.72.1.253 14:35, 13 July 2006 (UTC) *****

Do you know that Masson wrote an entire book against gurus of any sort? —Cesar Tort 01:33, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Are you talking about this one My Father's Guru: A Journey Through Spirituality and Disillusion?

Austerlitz 07:15, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Masson says that there are no perfect gurus, and that socalled gurus are authoritarian by nature, so to speak. But in this book he also refers to the fact that his mother later on had a guru of her own, his name was John Levy and Masson doesn't say anything critical about that guy in this book.

Austerlitz 17:25, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

This [6] is about emotions and politics, not about truth, though. The rage and hatred deriving from childhood need not be lived within religious context. Austerlitz

Mr. Schiffer about truth:"The truth," he said rather smugly, "is reserved for this room. In the world, I play the game, and so does everybody who does not want to lose." He said it pointedly. (page 70)

  • Mr. Masson about Schiffer and himself:I had no sense of what was proper, where and when to reveal what I really thought. One day, I was going to get myself into trouble. He was right. It was a fair criticism of something he had seen in me that I had not seen in myself. But it did not still my deepening disappointment in him. (page 70, no gap between those quotations)

OF course Schiffer was not right.

Please sign

User 88.73.59.55: Please sign all of your comments in this talk page by typing four tildes (~). Thank you!—Cesar Tort 18:39, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

O.k., for future. (I've signed an old one and now it seems to be written today, after your recommendation of certain books.) 88.73.22.241 20:36, 30 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks! You may try also to indent your entries. --Cesar Tort 21:58, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Quotation replacement suggested

It would also be much easier if you log in. Once you do it you can edit from any PC with your name (I use my real name) or a pseudonym.

May I suggest to replace the following quotation?:

Indeed, I did not see how compassion, kindliness, and sympathy could be artificially conjured up. I worried for myself. Did I have a good heart? Yes, on balance, I thought I did. But what Dr. Thompson had just shown me was not merely a good heart, it was an open heart, one that was not afraid of emotional generosity. Did I have that as well? On balance, I would say no, I did not. Was this a quality I would gain, as part of my training? I could not see how I could acquire an "open heart" merely by reading, or by studying (page 16).

The above block is not really germane to explain Masson’s exposé of analysis —and psychiatry too. —Cesar Tort

It shows that in spite of all narrow-minded psychoanalysts existing there is the possibility of coming across a caring one, even if he might be wrong with his presumptions and interpretations, too. That's important to show. Because Masson has been asking himself whether the incredible experiences he made with those psychopeople were an aberration from the genuine core or whether they were the 'natural' result of a basically false theory. 88.73.47.141 14:15, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Finally he has come to the conclusion that the theory is false, it does not fit with reality. But he holds to believing that listening attentively and patiently -he even says 'humbly'- to another person can bring about healing. And, he doesn't claim that psychotherapists or -analysts have to be malicious people by necessity. 88.73.47.141 14:24, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
This may be obvious for us who have read the book. My concern is that the Wikipedia readership may get the wrong conclusion: that there are many empathetic analysts. We cannot fill the article up with quotations. We must be very selective. I still think that, out of due context, this quotation is grossly misleading and should be removed. —Cesar Tort 16:57, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
O.k., maybe you are right, remove it. But leave it here on the discussion page. 88.73.38.206 18:46, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

César Tort writes: What about this one?:

“When a child manifests gross pathology...” these words startled me into consciousness. They were enunciated, for emphasis, very slowly, and in a booming voice. There could be no doubt about it, the department chairman was a fine orator. He had acted on the stage. His voice, his urban wit, his friendliness, his poise, his great knowledge of [psychiatric] literature were all admirable. He laughed a great deal. He liked to make jokes. You had to like him.
But you did not have to like what he said. And I did not. What was it to “manifest gross pathology”? In this case, an eight-year-old boy was the “identified” patient. The word “identified” was a popular and venerable psychiatric term. He had been “identified” as the patient by his mother and father, simply because he was not doing well at school, he had few friends, and he was a “problem” at home. How was this, I wondered at the time, “gross pathology”? Where was I? I was at grand rounds.

“Grand rounds” was the visit of psychiatric hospitals in the city of Toronto during Masson’s training for analyst. The hospital staff met and a senior psychiatrist presented a case of one of the hospitalized patients. As Masson observed, this was humiliating for the patient:

It soon became apparent that every presentation of therapy was only good as the intellect and heart of the presenter. You did not, you could not, learn about the patient, but you learned plenty about the presenter [...].
So here was a department chairman talking about still another “patient”, Jill, nineteen, “who was admitted to the hospital with a schizophrenic psychotic decompensation”.

The department chairman who presented these cases was a respected psychiatrist who believed in electroshock. Masson continues:

How did we know, for example, that somebody was “sick”? It was simple: they were brought to the hospital. The chairman made it clear that a person who had been “identified” as a patient by the family, was, in fact, disturbed in a psychiatric way. People apparently did not err when it came to making these kinds of home diagnoses. Thus, he told us, speaking of the “maladjusted” (a medical term?) child, that we should accept
that the “identified” patient is “sicker” than the others. A study by S. Wolff (in the British Journal of Psychiatry) lends support to the family’s identification of its most disturbed member as the “sick one”.
To me, this was suspiciously convenient for the psychiatrist. What gave the psychiatric community this power? (pages 48-51).

—Cesar Tort 22:42, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

The "psychiatric community" is part of the states' power systems. 88.73.34.170 09:05, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
They have been given the power to hospitalize people against their will and treat them with psychopharmaka or electroshocks against their will, too, claiming to know what is going on.
Psychologists, as long as they are not allowed to hospitalize people or to prescribe psychopharmaka, too, cannot be as dangerous as psychiatrists or other people being part of the so-called Health care system.
Family is the smallest circle of power there is, the nest for adaptation to society, most of the cases. Usually nobody is going to get hospitalized by force when there is not family or other so called 'dear ones' to look for it to be done.
Maybe beyond this kind of decision there is sort of hatred against the family member labelled to be disturbingly 'sick'. 88.73.34.138 15:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree with you. Family is behind the nastiest psychiatry. Have you read my first letter in my user talk page? Also, have you read the Anti-psychiatry article? Recently I was dragged to an arbitration dispute and the issue of involuntary treatment was hotly discussed there [7]. —Cesar Tort 16:57, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
Cesar, I went to the pages you have linked and I've read some of it. I also read some letter of yours about Wikipedia and establishment. I think my main interest is autonomy and justice and openhearted/minded dialogue, not confined to psychiatry, etc. 88.73.38.73 14:11, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I already removed the bold-typed block. What do you think of the above block I propose instead? Is it too long to include it in article? By the way, I still think it would be much easier to talk to you if you log in (and chose a pseudonym if you don’t want to reveal your real name). --Cesar Tort 00:18, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Neanderthal analysts

I think it's too long, given the fact that I would like to suggest quotation of -let's say- half of that book. And I can't do this, when you chose long quotations like that. Is this your favourite topic? the crime of labelling innocent people with so-called mental illnesses just because they don't please some establishment or another?? or do you think it to be the topic Masson's book is mainly about? 88.73.31.151 18:30, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

When I was a teenager my mad mother sent me to a mad psychoanalyst because I didn’t want to go to the Catholic Mass. The analyst is the most well-known psychoanalyst in the Mexican media system. He committed a crime with me: the subject of my first two books (something far more horrible than Masson’s story, since I was a minor). I published those books for a year and a half in Spanish but, for copyright reasons, I removed them a few months ago from my website. I already have finished my third book but still have many more to write. It’s pay back time. If you have seen V for Vendetta (film) you’ll know what kind of person you are talking to. —Cesar Tort 19:11, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
What kind of Vendetta you want? a personal one? 88.73.33.136 18:59, 3 July 2006 (UTC)
The analyst that my mother hired fucked me psychologically in his office on my mother’s behalf. The aim of publishing is to get our asses even. —Cesar Tort 02:30, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Do you know this group? I've found it just now. [8]. Have you ever talked to Daniel Burston? Seems as if he had some connections with psychopeople in Mexico, look here: [9].
No, I have not seen the film you mention. 88.73.20.112 22:58, 2 July 2006 (UTC)
I’ve never talked to Burston. “Psychopeople” in Mexico, as in other countries, are generally stupid: I call them "Neanderthals". Only real critics of psychiatry, psychoanalysis and clinical psychology have some emotional intelligence. Incidentally, since I’m working in my 4th book against the Neanderthals I’m taking a Wiki-break and will do some editing only on Sundays. But I still have some hours to talk to you here... (it’s 5:43 PM here in Mexico City). —Cesar Tort 23:43, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

The white coats of Psychiatrists

It is the white coats that makes them feel and look like medical doctors what they in fact are. The coat is their passport of sanity. Psychoanalysts —at least in the United States of America— must be medical doctors as well, this is prescribed by law.

Red pseudonym?

Hi again. If you don’t want to log in it’s OK. No problem. But since you use various IP numbers could you at least sign with a name or pseudonym even though it will appear in red (since you have not logged in yet)? --Cesar Tort 22:14, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi. I tried to sign in, but it didn't work for some unknown reason (unknown to me).
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.72.3.17 (talk • contribs)
Just write Y (“Y” is the name or pseudonym you may chose). Click on "Edit this page" now so you can see how I used brackets around "User:Y|Y", or around my own signature. —Cesar Tort 16:12, 6 July 2006 (UTC)
P.S. But you have to write your name; not mine (which I just erased). --Cesar Tort 02:03, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
Austerlitz****. Hi Cesar, using your brackets and signs, the colour remains red. 88.72.3.126 19:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC) Austerlitz ****
Austerlitz**** Now it is black. What's the use of using those brackets and signs? to get colour red??
Yes: that is precisely the objective: that your signature appears red (if you want it blue you must log in, but many use red signatures). By the way, Why do you use so many ** in your signature? --Cesar Tort 21:37, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

What Masson wanted to show with the book Final Analysis

In the Preface he writes: "Thus, until now it has been almost impossible to get an internal view of this "men’s club" with its initiation rites; expectations of membership loyalty over truth; pressures to accept concepts handed down by the leader, no matter how irrational; xenophobic banding together against outsiders; and the punishment of anyone who poses questions or finally wants out. (page 1) and page 4 of the Preface, The price for joining this fraternity is silence about its membership policy. Corruption is incorporated, not exposed; prejudice and bias have been accepted, even embraced. It is a high price to pay for membership. This book examines that fraternity and that price, and in the end describes a pathway to freedom."

Hello Cesar, what to you think about quoting one of these quotations in the text of the article?? I wonder how much impact this book had on the so called Professionals, whether it had any. Do you know about that? Has it been neglected because of anti-truth-defense-mechanisms? Austerlitz**** 18:59, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

It has been ignored because Neanderthalism is endemic in the profession. To fully understand what has happened in the cult called psychoanalysis you have to read another analyst who, like Masson, gave up the cult: Alice Miller. —Cesar Tort 02:30, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Have you read this letter and the answer of Alice Miller? [10].
I feel uncomfortable with cults (usually*) and churches, too. Though some of them are really very beautiful. 88.72.2.137 08:19, 9 July 2006 (UTC)]]. Peace Monument of Austerlitz **** what CHAOS this is looking like!
You don’t have to make a mess of this talk page :) —Cesar Tort 10:41, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

According to Daniel Burston [11] Freud and the other 'Fathers' (and mothers?) of Analysis thought children or youngsters who want to criticize and rebel against 'authority' to be somehow ill, mentally, I suppose. Burston’s article —though very interesting and enlightening— nonetheless tries to blame Masson and Miller for the absence of dialogue within psychoanalytical establishment about that topic. Very stupid, I think, to say it openly. I wonder how a person can be so intelligent and stupid at the same time. Austerlitz**** 14:07, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Burston is just another Neanderthal. —Cesar Tort 02:30, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Quoting Mr. Schiffer(Masson's training analyzer):"I don't want intelligence, but loyalty. You can stick your intelligence up your ass" he shouted at me. (page 81)

  • We don't know whether this means that loyalty is the main quality for an analyst, since Mr. Schiffer before speaking thus had flown into a rage.

But one can understand that criticism and loyalty are thought to be opposites, in his beliefsystem. Austerlitz 19:09, 13 July 2006 (UTC) *****

Wiki’s policy: to sign

Hi Austerlitz. Tomorrow Sunday I will answer your several questions here and in my subpage. For the moment I’m only replacing your IP numbers for your chosen name (as stated above, you should sign “Austerlitz” since you use different IP numbers). —Cesar Tort 17:00, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Cesar. OK, your first sentence; as for the rest, I don't care. Do what you like.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Austerlitz**** (talk • contribs)
Hi Austerlitz. It’s just a Wikipedia policy to sign entries; not mine. —Cesar Tort 01:46, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi Cesar. I hope wikipedia is not Wilberian or something like that with the colours they have chosen. Austerlitz Peace Monument ****
No, but I hope you don’t mind to chose only one signature? —Cesar Tort 10:41, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
For ever, you mean? for eternity?? How long is it that I have to sign as Austerlitz, Cesar?
If you log in your signature would appear in blue automatically every time you sign with four tildes. If you don’t want to log in, you can simply copy and paste your signature every time you post something here. —Cesar Tort 18:13, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

"It has been ignored because Neanderthalism is endemic in the profession."

Ave Cesar, could you please explain this a little bit? Austerlitz****

Please never sign your posts with my signature again. I just replaced my signature with yours :)
I explained today what “Neanderthalism” means in my 17:48 (UTC) entry in User talk:Cesar Tort/discussion. —Cesar Tort 18:02, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
That's your explanation (quotation) you have given there:

As you know, I’m working on a 10-volume autobiographical work. “Neanderthal” is my own pet (and hate) word to refer to people that, because of the abuse in their childhoods, cannot feel empathy toward another victim. There are six levels of “Neanderthalism” which, as stated above, have to do with the Psychogenic mode. There are subcategories too. Breggin and deMause are pretty close to what I call the “overman” category. But they’re not overmen yet...

your quotations will be archived

Austerlitz:

After a while old discussions in the articles’ talk pages are archived. Do you know that all of these quotations you are posting in this talk page will be archived (and once archived no one can edit them further)?

I would recommend instead concentrating our efforts in improving the article :) —Cesar Tort 01:41, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Cesar:
The article has been improved quite a lot in the meantime. Has it been you? But the link to your article has been removed. Has it been you, too?
(Don't understand what you say about archivation and edition of these quotations I have been posting on the talk page.)
Austerlitz *****
Rockpocket removed it today and I don't mind. You can click the “history” button to see who did the copyedits. (I also suggest you to click on the “watchlist” button in your favorite articles so you can easily see the changes every time you enter Wikipedia.)
Take a look at the archived talk pages in either the Psychiatry or the Anti-psychiatry articles. What I mean is that everything you post in this page will be archived; I mean, it will disappear from this main talk page about Masson. --Cesar Tort 07:16, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
In terms of your article, Cesar, Austerlitz is very keen to link to it, so i suggested the anti psychiatry page, where i think it is actually quite appropriate (certainly more so than here or psychiatry itself). I appreciate you would not link it there yourself (per WP:VANITY), but what do you think about that proposition. Would you think it appropriate per WP:EL? Rockpocket 07:48, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I haven’t read WP:EL. I guess it’s ok with me if Austerlitz wants to link it to the Anti-psychiatry article. —Cesar Tort 08:02, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I have linked it there, because: I don't want to be more popish than the pope, if you understand what I mean. Austerlitz 88.72.3.71 18:10, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh yes: it's a very common saying in Spanish-speaking countries. But Geni removed it some hours ago, as you can see in Anti-psychiatry's talk page. --Cesar Tort 18:56, 16 July 2006 (UTC)


Parentheses

I presume the content in parenthesis in the following quote is not actually in the book: "the one I had written with my wife, Terri, and which Schiffer [Masson's abusive analyst] had claimed as his" The term "abusive" appears to be editorialising and is potentially libelous unless his analyst was convicted of abuse (unlikely, i would imagine). Therefore, i'm removing the term unless someone confirm it is in the book or can provide reliable third party evidence that his analyst was abusive. Rockpocket 00:57, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

That's the quotation: Somewhat to my surprise, I was accepted for membership in the society [the San Francisco Psychoanalytic Society]. I was looking forward to giving my inaugural paper, "The Navel of Neurosis: Trauma, Memory and Denial," the one I had written with my wife, Terri, and which Schiffer [Masson's analyst] had claimed as his (page 136).

  • The words in Parenthesis are not in the book, I mean not within the text of this quotation.

I wonder whether 'Schiffer' really has published that inaugural paper under his name, with his name on it. Austerlitz 88.72.1.136 05:58, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Citation requests

Thanks for attempting to address those requests, Cesar. However, i don't feel you addressed my concerns fully:

  • "Masson's psychoanalytic practice was not very successful" - we need a reliable source that states this, otherwise who judges what is successful?
I can delete that opening phrase (which BTW I didn’t write it). —Cesar Tort 08:08, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
  • "he was appointed by Eissler himself to become his successor as the guardian of the Freud archives after both him and Anna Freud died" - don't need a source for this, per se, it appears to be pretty well established. However, i'm confused. How do you get appointed "by Eissler himself" when Eissler is already dead? Or perhaps it is supposed to mean he was appointed after Freud was dead. Its not clear to me.
My grammar was imprecise. I meant that Eissler appointed him while Eissler was still alive (he was already very old). —Cesar Tort 08:08, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
  • "after Masson was interviewed by a reporter his theories were published in the New Yorker to the dismay of the psychoanalytic establishment." - my request here was for a source that noted the establishment's dismay. We need a reliable that says that, otherwise who decides what the establishment is, and how do we know it was dismayed? Rockpocket 07:39, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
Again, I didn’t write it and will modify the sentence. —Cesar Tort 08:08, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
I now think we may leave this last sentence as it is. It is a very well known fact in the analytic community that Eissler was bombarded by dozens of telephone calls from all over the analytic world when his protégée, Masson, did the pronunciations against Freud in the New Yorker. —Cesar Tort 08:20, 16 July 2006 (UTC)
OK, i'll take your word for it. However, such content really should relate to a secondary source. Others, in the future, may delete it as unencyclopaedic editorialising without one. Rockpocket 08:30, 16 July 2006 (UTC)


Cesar, by New Yorker you mean the New York Times? or the Magazine? Or is it the same? Austerlitz 88.72.2.225 10:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Has anybody (from here) read this two-part article in the New York Times?

  • The two-part article was published in the "Science" section of the Times on two successive Tuesdays, August 14, and August 21,1981.

Austerlitz 88.72.2.223 21:16, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

  • How can one get those articles of the New York Times to read by yourself?

Austerlitz 88.72.1.135 05:08, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

  • Most probably those are the two articles -written by Blumenthal- Masson is talking about:

published August 18, 1981 August 25, 1981

The dates differ: in Masson's book Final Analysis he writes that the two-part article has been published on Tuesday August 14 and August 21, 1981, and in the archives of the New York Times it seems to have been published on Saturday August 18 and August 25, 1981. I don't think that Masson has made an error with the dates, he is a very careful thinker and writer. Perhaps the dates have been changed online, or maybe those different days and numbers have some deeper (cabbalistic or so) meaning. Austerlitz 88.72.3.106 18:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

This is not true

"As Masson recounts in Final Analysis, word of his controversial position reached the New Yorker Magazine, and after Masson was interviewed by a reporter his theories were published in the New Yorker to the dismay of the psychoanalytic establishment." Austerlitz 88.72.1.135 05:08, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Then you should request a citation by typing {{fact}} after the sentence in the article. If the author cannot provide a source proving it, then you may delete it. If you have definative evidence that is not true, then provide it here and change it immediately. Rockpocket 05:31, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I'll think about it. Austerlitz 88.72.1.142 20:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
I've changed part of it. Austerlitz 88.72.2.188 19:10, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
  • It is not true that it has been the New Yorker Magazine, it has been the New York Times from the beginning. It doesn't seem to be thus important for the content of the information, which Newspaper or Magazine has been in between, but when you want to look for the article you must know where to look for.

I have extended the quotations from Final Analysis. The reporter who made the interview with Masson and who wrote the article in the New York Times has been Ralph Blumenthal, and with his name I've found some facts published by the New York Times about the story of dismission.

  • [12]
  • [13] Here is another article written by Ralph Blumenthal, published the 25th of August 1981. The articles published on August 14, and August 21, 1981, I have not found yet.

Austerlitz 88.72.2.188 18:48, 21 July 2006 (UTC) *****

Thanks for those citations, i have added them to the article. Rockpocket 19:38, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Welcome, and thanks, too, you've found a good place for this article of Ralph Blumenthal.

Austerlitz 88.72.2.132 07:51, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Truth and Reality in Psychoanalysis

Quoting Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson: By shifting the emphasis from a real world of sadness, misery and cruelty to an internal stage on which actors performed invented dramas for an invisible audience of their own creation, Dr. Masson said at Yale, Freud began a trend away from the real world that, it seems to be, has come to a dead halt in the present-day sterility of psychoanalysis throughout the world. (source: the above linked articles of Blumenthal) Austerlitz 88.72.2.188 19:00, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Modern Truth about Elephants (for example)

Nowadays there is a strong beliefsystem holding to the belief that there are many different truths, nothing else. It's like blind people surrounding an elephant from their own viewpoint, one saying he has a tusk, the other one saying he has a tail and the last one -a dwarf without arms and legs- saying that there is only void. Austerlitz 88.72.2.132 07:48, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I claim no expertise but...

Hi Austerlitz. I see you are still inserting quotations here in the talk page. As soon as this page reaches a certain size all of our talking here will be removed (and archived).

By the way, I see you placed brackets around the word Tuesday in the article. I claim no expertise on wiki-etiquette but I guess it’s unnecessary.

Also, the words “successfully combining old wisdom...” may sound pov to some editors. Whether we like it or not I have heard that encyclopedic language must be dry. —Cesar Tort 00:52, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

"Loyal Opposition"

Burston writes here that Erich Fromm has been part of what he calls Freud's "loyal opposition" [14].

  • I wonder what he thinks that to be, what might be the difference between "loyal opposition" and "illoyal (?) opposition".

Austerlitz 88.72.1.142 20:06, 20 July 2006 (UTC) *****

Besides membership policy there must be some beliefsystem, sort of "core of Psychoanalysis"

How is it realized? Do members have to take an oath on certain convictions? that they will stick to them even if they are not true? On the Website of IPA you can read:

The IPA is the world’s primary accrediting and regulatory body for psychoanalysis. Our mission is to assure the continued vigour and development of psychoanalysis for the benefit of psychoanalytic patients. We work in partnership with our 70 constituent organizations in 33 countries to support our 11,500 Members.

Our aims include creating new psychoanalytic groups, stimulating debate, conducting research, developing training policies and establishing links with other bodies. We organize a large biennial Congress which is open to all [15] Austerlitz 88.72.1.200 18:24, 11 July 2006 (UTC) ****

Masson has been a member at San Francisco, most probably here [16] Austerlitz 88.72.1.200 18:45, 11 July 2006 (UTC) ****

  • Don't know whether this Institute has got membership policy or sort of beliefsystems too; or whether it reallyreally is for free thought, debate and membership?? [17]

Austerlitz 88.72.2.189 15:16, 13 July 2006 (UTC) *****

  • The knowledge is sold [18]
  • You must be or a modern scientist or a buddhist if you want to take part into this knowledge osmosis. Austerlitz 88.72.2.202 18:26, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Criticism

"In psychoanalytical circles there has been significant criticism of Masson's hypothesis about Freud's alleged suppression of abuse." Who has written this? Doesn't seem true to me. Where have you found some critics about the content of Masson's findings? As far as I have understood those psychoanalytical circles are not able to criticize what they think to be dangerous in some way or another. Austerlitz 88.72.1.130 05:03, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Austerlitz. I have just commented about this page in my user subpage.
You can edit the article and change whatever you deem it necessary, even controversial issues, if you can support it with sources.
I moved some of your posts below in this talk page since they make more sense chronologically.
Also, I am not sure if it’s ok with wiki-etiquette to put blue on dates August 14, 21 and 1981, as it seems you did in article :) Cesar Tort 01:05, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Janet Malcolm

To the world at large, Eissler is known only as the guileless analyst who was betrayed and sued by his protege Jeffrey Masson. This is quotation from her article in The New York Times about Eissler. I don't have any idea why she hated Masson. But she did hate him, as it seems to me. Austerlitz 88.72.2.186 21:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Encountering Eissler at a gathering of analysts was like coming upon an orchid in a hayfield. That's another quotation from that little article about Eissler. Here she is confusing him with Masson - I guess. Austerlitz 88.72.4.38 18:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Austerlitz. If Daniel allows it, we may discuss these issues in his forum (as we have discussed there Alice Miller issues that do not relate to improving the wiki article). —Cesar Tort 02:44, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Hello, do you know Malcolm's book "Vater, lieber Vater..." ? Austerlitz 88.72.18.255 06:06, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Masson about Eissler

I liked visiting Eissler in his home in New York. His office was a delight to me: completely buried in papers, articles, and books. What mattered most for me and seemingly for Eissler during my visits was that we got to sit in his office and talk psychoanalytic history. It is hard for me now, from this distance, and with all that has happened in between, to recapture the mood it put me in, but there is no doubt that I was completely absorbed. I felt, rightly, that I had a great deal to learn from Eissler, and I was a good and willing pupil. Somehow, too, it seemed "significant", something that had always been lacking in my life when I was a professor of Sanskrit. Eissler and I could move, on one sentence, from some obscure topic in the history of psychoanalysis to the nature of fear. Why, I asked him, did people seem to seek out situations that actually terrified them? "Ah", he would say, "you are asking for the source of counterphobia. Did I ever show you the unpublished discussion of this by Fenichel? Or when I would talk about my analytic training, and what I considered wrong with it, he would pull out the minutes of the New York Psychoanalytical Society from the early sixties, its heyday,and read with evident pleasure the eccentric comments by Isakower. (pages 121,122 Final Analysis).

hello Cesar, this quotation is going to improve the article, sooner or later. Austerlitz 88.72.3.60 07:46, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I've quoted some more phrases to make better understand how much Masson enjoyed the dialogue with Eissler. Austerlitz 88.72.4.51 14:02, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Hi Austerlitz. As you see, the quotations have been archived in both the article and in this talk page. It’s unnecessary to quote from the Malcolm affair. Also, instead of doing lots of minor copyedits in article, could you just copy and paste the entire document to your word processor (and do all the changes in a single move)? That way I won’t need to check step by step all of the recent changes :) Cesar Tort 01:30, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Why do you want to check step by step all of the recent changes, Cesar? Ave* Austerlitz 88.72.1.120 05:07, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
If you have in mind lots of minor edits for the same article the same day, it saves me a lot of work if you do them at once so I don’t have to review them step by step :) Cesar Tort 00:29, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
Today I asked the same favor to other user: User talk:Svartulfr1 :) Cesar Tort 14:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Masson and Eissler

  • I had never seen Dr. Eissler, nor he me. But he was not difficult to recognize. When I caught sight, of a tall, gaunt older man--at the time he was in his late sixties--in the lobby of the hotel where we were staying, looking like someone who had just stepped off the boat from Europe, dressed severely in a black suit with an almost haunted look about him, I knew it was Eissler.

And so I approached him. "Dr. Eissler, I presume. I am Jeff Masson." Eissler was genuinely taken aback.

"How did you know it was me?"
"Well, it was obvious."
"No, no, there is something else. There is something uncanny about this."
  • He did not seem entirely certain that I had not used witchcraft to recognize him.

In many ways it was an unexpected friendship. Eissler was much older, and seemed to be everything I was not: conservative in his dress, brusque and apparently unfriendly in manner, spare in speech. But what Eissler and I experienced together was, while completely nonsexual, nonetheless romantic in some important sense of this word. For one, it was shot through with fantasy. For another, we both behaved as isf we were somehow infatuated, both intellectually and emotionally.

Part of the reason was that our beliefs, or in some people's views our prejudices, seemed to coincide. I had a great need for loudly proclaiming mine and seeing if I could find anybody who agreed with them. I rarely did. For example, I believed that psychoanalysis was diametrically opposed to all of the major ideas within classical psychiatry. At first I had expected, naively, that other analysts would share my low opinion of psychiatry. It always came as a disappointment to me to hear that a prominent analyst was active in psychiatry, though in fact many were. I found it an even greater shock to learn, for example, that the influential psychoanalyst Edith Jacobson tried to induce a number of her analytic patients to submit to electroshock treatment. I could not imagine a less analytic procedure than electroshock, and I was convinced that other analysts would agree. They did not. When analysts like Margaret Mahler used psychiatric terms such as "predispositional deficiency" to speak about children she considered "autistic" or "psychotic", I was disgusted, but I was convinced I was not alone. She greatly admired Leo Kanner's work in this area, which I abhorred. It was not only Mahler's language that I objected to; she believed, for example, that infants, "with varying degrees of intensity of cathexis, represent a body part for the mother, usually her illusory phallus." I think, now, that I was indeed alone. But I desperately longed to find a kindred spirit, and in Eissler I thought I had found such a person, a man who loved and hated with the same intensity, though less vociferously. ( pages 115, 116)

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.72.12.229 (talk • contribs)

Loss of membership in the Psychoanalytical organizations he belonged to

He did not leave them actually but he was told by a letter that he was no longer a member "since we have not received payment of your dues for the last three months," (Final Analysis, Page 204.) Austerlitz 88.72.12.229 16:02, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Masson's first book about Psycho-analysis (different editions)

  • The Assault on Truth: Freud's Suppression of the Seduction Theory. New York: Farrar Straus & Giroux, 1984. Paperback: Penguin, 1985. (Translated into French, German, Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, Swedish, Finnish and Japanese.) Second English Edition: HarperCollins, New York (and London), 1992. Second German edition, Kore Verlag, 1994. Rpt. By Pocket Books with a new introduction, in 1999. New edition from Random House in 2003.

I can't find how to make a new section in this Talk page (I want to discuss the Life and Work section), so I'm adding my comments here:

I have added a short passage under the heading "Life and Work" linking to my articles challenging Masson's contentions from a non-psychoanalytic position. There is a lesser-known view of events arrived at by numerous researchers who, unlike those who recycle the received story as told by Freud in his later career, have closely examined the original documents. To quote one of the most recent of these revised versions, Kurt Eissler writes (2001, p. 115) of Freud's clinical methodology in the seduction theory period that its deficiencies "reduce the probability of gaining reliable data to zero". Close readings of letters and papers from that period indicate that patients did not report sexual abuse in early childhood as Freud later claimed; he arrived at his (preconceived) 'findings' by analytic inference, heavily dependent on the symbolic interpretation of patients' symptoms. Nor did Freud's claims involve the culpability of fathers. This innovation only came into his published accounts as late as 1925.

This is not the view of one or two maverick writers. A number of Freud scholars who are prepared to re-examine received accounts have come to similar conclusions (see below). The most detailed presentations of these conclusions are in the following articles:

Schimek, J. G. (1987), "Fact and fantasy in the seduction theory: a historical review." Journal of the American Psychoanalytic Association, 35, 937-65.

Esterson, A. (1998), "Jeffrey Masson and Freud's seduction theory: a new fable based on old myths." History of the Human Sciences, 11 (1), 1-21: http://www.esterson.org/Masson_and_Freuds_seduction_theory.htm

Esterson, A. (2001). "The mythologizing of psychoanalytic history: deception and self-deception in Freud’s accounts of the seduction theory episode." History of Psychiatry, xii, pp. 329-352: http://www.esterson.org/Mythologizing_psychoanalytic_history.htm

Several other authors have arrived at essentially the same conclusions in the following publications:

Cioffi, F. (1998 [1974]), "Was Freud a liar?", reprinted in Freud and the Question of Pseudoscience (Chicago and La Salle: Open Court, 1998), 199-204.

Schatzman, M. (1992), "Freud: who seduced whom?", New Scientist, 21, 34-7.

Israëls, H. and Schatzman, M. (1993), "The Seduction Theory", History of Psychiatry, iv, 23-59.

Esterson, A. (1993). Seductive Mirage: An Exploration of the Work of Sigmund Freud. (Chicago and La Salle: Open Court).

Scharnberg, M. (1993). The Non-Authentic Nature of Freud's Observations, Vol. 1, The Seduction Theory. (Stockholm: Almqvist & Wiksell International).

Webster, R. (1995). Why Freud Was Wrong. (London: HarperCollins).

Eissler, K. R. (2001). Freud and the Seduction Theory. (New York: Int. Univ. Press).

Esterson 12:37, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

I know that it is not true what you say here: "Close readings of letters and papers from that period indicate that patients did not report sexual abuse in early childhood as Freud later claimed; he arrived at his (preconceived) 'findings' by analytic inference, heavily dependent on the symbolic interpretation of patients' symptoms."
But it takes me some time to prove it by other quotations.
  • with kind regards, Austerlitz 88.72.20.77 19:54, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Masson's book When elephants weep

Jeffrey began to enjoy real success as a writer with his books about animals. His best-selling book, When Elephants Weep: The Emotional Lives of Animals, written with Susan McCarthy, has been translated into twenty languages, and sold nearly half a million copies in the United States alone.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.72.3.202 (talk • contribs)

There is an indian film called final solution

nothing to do with Masson [19] Austerlitz 88.72.1.148 09:15, 8 October 2006 (UTC) But: it has got the Wolfgang Staudte prize in 2004 2004 Final Solution, Rakesh Sharma, Indien 2003, 218 min Jury: Catherine Breillat, Regisseurin (Frankreich), Imruh Bakari, Festivalleiter (Tansania), Thomas Arslan, Regisseur (Deutschland) english link here: [20]

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.72.3.202 (talk • contribs)

New editions reprinted in 2003

In November, 2003, Ballantine (Random House) reprinted three of Jeffrey's books: Assault on Truth, My Father's Guru, and Final Analysis, all with new prefaces. Austerlitz 88.72.6.211 14:07, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

In 2003 there has been a new edition of "A Dark Science: Women, Sexuality and Psychiatry in the 19th Century" by Random House, too.

Austerlitz 88.72.4.240 10:37, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Some more of Masson's books

  • Empty Cages: Facing the Challenge of Animal Rights by Tom Regan, Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson, Rowman & Littlefield Publishers (Februar 2004), ISBN 0742533522
  • The Cat Who Came in from the Cold (Wheeler Hardcover), Largeprint (2nd of march 2005), ISBN 1587249146
  • Beauty in the Beasts: True Stories of Animals Who Choose to Do Good , by Kristin Von Kreisler , Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson, Jeremy P. Tarcher, Publisher, (May 2001), ISBN 158542093X
  • Vegetarians and Vegans in America Today: American Subcultures, by Karen Iacobbo, Michael Iacobbo, Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson, Praeger Publishers Inc.,U.S. (30. Juni 2006), ISBN 0275990168
  • The Compassion of Animals: True Stories of Animal Courage and Kindness, by Kristin Von Kreisler, Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson, Prima Publishing,U.S. (January 1999), ISBN 0761518088
  • Why Buffalo Dance: Animal and Wilderness Meditations Through the Seasons, Susan Chernak McElroy, Tracy Pitts, Jeffrey Moussaieff Masson , New World Library; Edition: 1st (Oktober 2006), ISBN 1577315421

To these (and some other) books Masson has written forwords.

Austerlitz 88.72.4.240 09:29, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

The psychoanalytic community

Who is she? Good question. Austerlitz -- 88.72.13.133 06:01, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I guess you mean "Which is it (the psychoanalytic community)?" —Cesar Tort 11:16, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I wanted to say: which psychoanalytic community? Is there one homogeneous group sharing the same point of view? -- 88.72.10.186 12:39, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

the question of representative opinion: another subject but the same problem [21]

  • Mrs. Wachs doesn't hold the representative opinion of the German Buddhists. Who is going to decide?
Austerlitz -- 88.72.15.56 08:01, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Masson argues that Freud feared that granting the truth of these reports would hinder the acceptance of the psychoanalytic methods he had pioneered. The psychoanalytic community largely rejects Masson's conclusions.[citation needed]

Austerlitz -- 88.72.15.56 08:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Cesar

I am not sure whether you like that quotation I've inserted or not. But: before deleting it -in case you want to- please tell me why.

Austerlitz -- 88.72.1.5 07:31, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Burston

  • [22] There are a few critical remarks towards Masson and Freud's "Seduction theory". As soon as I have got the impact of his idea, I am going to insert it. Of course - anybody who can do it right now- can do it.
Austerlitz -- 88.72.14.217 07:14, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

why do you describe or should I say why do you name Masson an "iconoclastic psychoanalyst"?

Austerlitz -- 88.72.0.166 21:35, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Relatives

Jewish people are said to descend from their mothers -symbollically speaking of course. So why not mention Diana Masson and her ancestors, too?

Austerlitz -- 88.72.31.98 10:23, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

According to the wikipedia sites about ashkenazim and sephardic the difference between them in terms of religion is their rite, one called askkenazi rite and the other sephardic rite. quotation from sephardic wikipedia site: In a broader sense, the term Sephardi has come to include Jews of Arabic and Persian backgrounds who have no historical connection to Iberia except their use of a Sephardic style of liturgy. For religious purposes, Jews of these communities are considered to be "Sephardim", meaning not "Spanish Jews" but "Jews of the Spanish rite". (In the same way, Ashkenazim means "Jews of the German rite", whether or not their families actually originate in Germany.)

Jeffrey Masson says in his book "My father's Guru" that his parents were no Jews in the religious sense of the meaning, they -and so he and his sister- didn't not go to the Synagogue but to temples. He says that his parents have been jews in the cultural sense of the meaning, that's why they made him experience a bar mitzvah. I don't know whether the bar mitzvah rite is the same for every jewish group.

Austerlitz -- 88.72.8.226 09:11, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Place of birth

Does anybody know?

Austerlitz -- 88.75.91.245 (talk) 21:45, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes. It's Chicago, Illinois [23].

Austerlitz -- 88.75.91.245 (talk) 22:02, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

i.e. the Chicago Osteopathic Hospital.

Austerlitz -- 88.72.13.246 (talk) 10:49, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Happy birthday, Jeffrey M. Masson

please note :UG Sings His Song (is has to be found on those sites, there is no direct link)

88.72.24.148 13:55, 27 March 2007 (UTC) New Zealand belongs to a different time zone*