Talk:Jean-Paul Marat

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Marat was not very active has a politician he was mainly a journalist. (Unsigned: Sep 23, 2002 User:Ericd)

Lenin was just a journalist until he bacame the Chairman of the Council of Peoples Commissars (head of Soviet Russia). This has to do with the revolutionary aspects of the work done by Marat. Once the the "Legislative Assembly" became the "National Convention", Marat enetred formal politics, until then he was, I believe, in hiding (just like Lenin). --130.161.31.26 19:41, 15 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Is this entry even encyclopedic?

This entry is decent, but shouldn't it be much more concise?

Major points that left me scratching my head:

  • Why did he get out of scientific pursuits? The article seems to indicate he was the laughingstock of the nation, but doesn't really indcate why. It kind of jumps from him being a notable doctor to the aristocrisy to being an well known but unconventional scientist to being laughed out into the streets selling snake oil.
  • What skin disease killed him? The information given about this is way too vague.
  • What eye disease did he look into? Was it a disease of his own eyes? Did he actually cure it? How did he manage to cure it using optics and electricity?
  • The entire style of the article seemed more like a dramatic narrative than an encyclopedic entry. Is this article ripped from somewhere? If it isn't please flesh out some of the more confusing points.

I'm not particularly sure this article should have been listed on the front page, as many inconsistencies as it seems to have.

--JD 01:14, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

The entire style of the article seemed more like a dramatic narrative than an encyclopedic entry. Is this article ripped from somewhere?
Ironically, most of it is ripped from the 1911 Encyclopædia Britannica. Townmouse 20:36, 13 July 2005 (UTC)
Which we credit. But just goes to show how much the notion of an encyclopedia has changed in nine decades. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:47, July 15, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Skin disease

There are two articles on PubMed that attempt to answer the apparently mysterious issue of Marat's disease. Can anyone access them and tell us what they say? I believe this information would add to the article. jengod 02:52, July 13, 2005 (UTC)

Jean-Paul Marat. The differential diagnosis of his skin disease. - 7:48pm Jean-Paul Marat. The differential diagnosis of his skin disease. Jelinek JE. Publication Types Biography Historical Article MeSH Terms ... www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve& db=PubMed&list_uids=396805&dopt=Abstract - Similar pages

   [Who will solve the mystery of Marat's itching skin disease?] - 7:48pm
   [Who will solve the mystery of Marat's itching skin disease?] [Article in Swedish]
   Wahlberg JE. Publication Types Biography Historical Article MeSH Terms ...
   www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve& db=PubMed&list_uids=11293135&dopt=Abstract - Similar pages


Mark Grzeskowiak at medhunters.com argues that Marat suffered from psoriasis. http://www.medhunters.com/articles/psoriaticRevolutionary.html --213.112.28.249 18:05, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Recently added link

I see that the Marat, premier de Corday ("Marat, first of Corday") link was added here as well as at Charlotte Corday. It's nature and relevance are unclear; see (slightly) more detailed question at Talk:Charlotte Corday, might as well have any discussion there rather than duplicate it. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:17, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] September massacres

I cut the following recent addition:

The September massacres (Sept.2 to Sept.8, 1792) were perpetrated by the dregs of Marseille. These had been made to come to Paris by the Girondins, but seeing that these were on the way out, offered their services to the Jacobins. On the way up from Marseille they sang the marching song of the Rhine army which then became known as the Marseillaise.

For one thing, we already have a decent (if short) article at September Massacres. This level of detail would belong there, not here. But for another, is there any citation for:

  1. the massacres having been performed by people from Marseilles rather than Paris?
  2. these people being "the dregs" of Marseilles, a rather POV characterization?
  3. them having "been made to come to Paris by the Girondins"? (Not even clear what that means)
  4. "offering their services" to the Jacobins?
  5. identifying La Marseillaise with this rabble rather than with the fédérés who arrived from Marseille for the fête de la Fédération two months earlier?

My degree of skepticism on these points varies, but they add up to reason to doubt the accuracy of the addition, or I would have just moved it to the correct article. - Jmabel | Talk 23:17, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Needs cleaning and expanding

I see someone was noting that the article was not concise enough. Now it looks too concise. In fact it looks like it's been picked apart. The Life section looks like it was started but not carried through. The Secret Identity section is empty. The Views of Marat need incorporation into a larger, more coherent biographical narrative. I've tagged accordingly. — J M Rice 04:09, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I just restored (and rewrote in a more modern style) a good deal of biographical material, because I also think the balance had gone too far the other way. I'd be interested to see what others think as to whether we now have the correct balance. - Jmabel | Talk 06:53, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Great improvement. It might be nice to add a section on Marat's legacy. The current narrative ends with Marat's apotheosis by the Revolution, but we know what became of the Revolution. Did Marat's renown die with the Revolution? Was he an icon to subsequent regimes? How is he viewed by modern historians? J M Rice 20:55, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
I haven't really focused on the French Revolutionary era in a couple of years (and the bulk of my reading on the period was decades ago). Much as with Robespierre, opinion on Marat is very divided, and along basically the same lines. He is generally seen as honest and intelligent (far more intelligent than Robespierre), he is generally not seen as a likable man, but whether you see him as a hero, a monster, or somewhere between depends, basically on three things: (1) whether you favor the revolution at all, especially in going beyond English constitutionalism, (2) whether you think Marat was right or wrong that a few hundred heads chopped off in 1790 would have saved a lot of bloodshed later and (3) even if you think he was right, would any political cause justify wading ankle-deep in blood?
Anything on legacy should certainly be sourced. I would expect that someone can cite a reasonably positive assessment from Soboul and a far more negative one from Schama. If someone has their works handy (I don't), citing both would probably make a balanced approach. No doubt others are equally appropriate for this purpose, and we could ultimately end up with several authors worth citing, but, in any case, we should make sure that we cite the views from both sides. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:08, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Jacobin

The lead of the article refers to Marat as a Jacobin and links that word to Jacobin Club. He was certainly a Jacobin in the broad sense of the word (Jacobinism), but I'm pretty certain he was never a member of the Jacobin Club. I'll give at least a week for someone to come up with a citation for that claim, but if no citation is forthcoming, I will change this. - Jmabel | Talk 05:29, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Even if he wasn't technically a member of the Jacobin Club, I think it's still important to identify Marat as a Jacobin, especially since the various denotations of the word often lead to confusion. I mean, it's more useful for the lay reader to link Marat to the Jacobin Club than to leave the impression that Marat was some kind of generic Jacobin. These Revolutionary clubs didn't have formal rolls, did they? I had the impression that they were places where the various factions showed up from time to time. For example, the article also identifies Marat with the Cordeliers Club, his "base of operations". It sounds like this outfit was to the left even of the Jacobins, calling Robespierre "too moderate". So, maybe Marat wasn't a Jacobin after all ! Hmm...maybe a new section is advisable, where Marat is contrasted with the likes of St. Just and Robespierre. — J M Rice 22:10, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

"These Revolutionary clubs didn't have formal rolls, did they?"

Yes, they did.

72.68.183.97 09:21, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Um, currently the intro paragraph says that he was a member, and then in 'Advocate of Revolutionary Violence' it says that he wasn't. Which was it?Figureground 05:24, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Exactly as J M Rice and I said above: he was certainly a Jacobin in the broad sense of the word, and was never a formal member of the club. I'll try to edit to make that clear. - Jmabel | Talk 08:25, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unsummarized recent edits

There were a large number of recent anonymous edits, without citation or summary. Some of them look fine to me, some I have questions about and would appreciate explanation. I'm going to list the questionable changes here, hoping that someone more expert than I on Marat can sort out which of these should stay.

  • "Upon his mother's death in 1759, Marat set out on his travels and spent two years at Bordeaux in the study of medicine" became just "Marat set out on his travels and may be spent two years at Bordeaux." Is there any question about his mother's death? Is there question about him studying medicine in Bordeaux at that time? My 1955 Britannica (I know, I know) states both of these as fact.
  • Similarly, the '55 Britannica gives De l'esprit by Helvetius, changed now to De l'Homme. The latter is presumably the posthumous and minor De l'homme, de ses facultés intellectuelles et de son éducation. I'm not sure of the exact date of publication, but I suspect it was not yet published at the time of Marat's essay that is described here as directly attacking it.
  • "Despite his anti-royalist writing, his reputation as a clever doctor won him, in 1777, a position as physician to the guards of the comte d'Artois…" Why struck? Seems appropriate to me.
  • "His pamphlet Offrande à la patrie": why drop "pamphlet"? In the new wording, it can readily be mistaken for a book.
  • Now we come to the really odd part; bolding here indicates insertions: "Marat often attacked the most influential and powerful groups in France, including the Corps Municipal, the Constituent Assembly, the ministers, and the Cour du Châtelet. This resulted in his imprisonment from October 8 to November 5, 1789. In January 1790, he was again nearly arrested for his aggressive campaign against the Marquis de La Fayette, and escaped by fleeing to LondonThis resulted in prosecutions as early as october 1789. He took refuge in London, where he wrote a Denonciation contre Necker ("Denunciation of Jacques Necker," an attack against the minister of Louis XVI). In May he returned to Paris to continue the publication of L'Ami du peuple, and attacked many of France's most powerful citizens. Fearing reprisal, Marat was forced to hide in the Catacombs, where he contracted a debilitating chronic skin disease (scrofula). In 1790, he married 27 year old Simone Évrard, the sister-in-law of Jean Antoine Corne, the typographer of L'Ami du peuple. wrote a lot of articles against war and underhand dealings to disorganise the national guard, first line of defence of liberty. Fearing reprisal, Marat was often forced to hide. Offhand, all of thes changes look wrongheaded to me.
  • The very concrete "Marat, long a supporter of the abolition of the Bourbon Monarchy, subsequently attacked more moderate revolutionary leaders. In July 1790, he wrote, 'Five or six hundred heads cut off would have assured your repose, freedom and happiness. A false humanity has held your arms and suspended your blows; because of this millions of your brothers will lose their lives.'" was replaced by "Marat was surprisingly indifferent to the institution of monarchy and unmoved by the existence of noble 'titles' (he regards their abolition in June 1790 as a needless provocation). He condemned the National Assembly’s decision to sell the property of th Church to fund the state’s debts, arguing that the land in question would be better used to meet the needs of the propertyless poor. He opposed the abolition of guilds, warning that unlimited competition would force down the quality of products. Marat’s republicanism was a system consisting of mix of popular sovereignity, patriot king, moderate prosperity and a common concern for the public good." Some of what was added may belong; I cannot fathom the reason for the removals.
  • Removed for no apparent reason: "In December 1791, he again fled to London and wrote another book École du citoyen ("School of the Citizen")."
  • Removed for no apparent reason: "Subsequently, Marat took his seat at the Paris Commune, and demanded a trial be held to judge the royalists in prison. When no trial was convened, he advocated the September Massacres in which thousands of political prisoners were murdered, and joined the commune's comité de surveillance (Surveillance Committee), whose declared role was to root out counter-Revolutionaries (Marat composed the death lists from which those suspected of political crimes). One of his victims may have been the chemist Antoine Lavoisier." I think this was overstated—I don't believe Marat's involvement in the September Massacres is nearly so clearcut, and I'd like to see a citation on this one way or the other—but I don't think it should go totally unmentioned. (After writing this, I looked again at my 50-year-old Britannica: they concur that he demanded a "demanded a tribunal… No tribunal was formed, and the massacres in the prisons were the inevitable result," which seems to me to be on the mark.

I'll allow at least a few days for comment on this, but if no one has anything substantive to say, I'll probably make a lot of restorations and a few reversions. - Jmabel | Talk 03:57, 4 December 2006 (UTC)

The father was Giovanni Mara, and not Giovanni "Marra". Jack 00:15, 6 september 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Revisions

Just to let you know (now that I am registered) that it was me who made the most recent changes. I provided the source in the summary (Cock and de Goetz, 1995 - by far the most uptodate) which is far superior to the EB used previously. I will try and return to correct other errors when I have time. I am currently working on a biography so would like to think I had a pretty good idea of what is factual and what not. Any queries etc. I am more than happy to answer here or elsewhere [Matador]

  • Thanks. I noticed that you had added a well-written amplification of the entry. I rewrote much of this a while back and have subsequently reverted it a few times, since for some reason this article tends to attract strange and not always helpful attention. The current version, however, is superior to my efforts and I look forward to the further development of this article. If you could provide sources that would be useful (check the MOS for the house style). Cheers, Eusebeus 13:22, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Girondin / Girondist

I notice that this article uses Girondin, which is, of course, the correct French-language term, but I believe that Wikipedia's other articles on the French Revolution generally favor the English Girondist. - Jmabel | Talk 20:34, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] What did he say?

This article states that Marat called out "À moi, ma chère amie!" before he died. However, the article on Corday states that he said "Aidez, ma chère amie!" Maybe I'm being picky, but which is it? If we don't know, maybe we should at least choose one (maybe the one with the most sources?) in order to be consistent. intooblv (talk) 07:02, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

  • This is correct. A stable source needs to be found. Eusebeus (talk) 16:41, 20 May 2008 (UTC)