Talk:Jean-Jacques Dessalines
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[edit] Needs to be revamped
This article needs to be revamped. It is extremely biased and harsh against Dessalines.
[edit] Colored?
Also, it refers to 'black people' and 'colored people'. What is a 'colored person'? Ashmoo 03:45, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
"Colored" is an outdated phrase used to describe anyone who isn't white. It is usually considered by modern day to be a racist remark. -Alex 12.220.157.93 06:42, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
"Colored" in the Caribbean context would mean a person of mixed race. Not a racist term in that context, but a little old-fashioned. --Stewart king (talk) 23:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Rebuttal to biased comments
The statement "Dessalines, who had been born a slave, held a grudge against French people" is simply not true. Dessalines was a general fighting the French Empire. He fought the French soldiers (LeClerc, Rochambeau) sent to enslave Blacks in Haiti, not the French people. You cannot necessarily extrapolate that he hated "French people". At the congress declaring Haiti's Act of Indepence, Dessalines asked each of the assembled generals to pronounce a vow to forever renounce France; to die rather than to live under its domination; and to fight for independence with their last breath.
Dessalines and others responsible for the 1805 Haitian Constitution 1805 Haitian Constitution eliminated distinctions of color: All Haitians were to be "Blacks".
CLR James, the historian, reveals in his book The Black Jacobins, that three Englishmen present at the congress that proclaimed Haiti's Independence were instrumental in bringing about the massacre of the French on the island. The Englishmen were acting as agents of Great Britain; they wanted to put a permanent wedge between the Haitian people and France in order to hold on to their trade monopoly and advance their ambitions in the hemisphere. They told Dessalines that England would trade with Haiti only “when the last of the whites had fallen under the axe,” writes James.
“Those civilized cannibals wanted to drive a wedge between Haiti and France to break all possibilities of unity.... This is one of the most infamous and unjustifiable crimes in this wretched history.”
Haiti continued to be threatened with enslavement by the Europeans; so a military preparedness had to be mandated to protect the new nation. Also, labor had to be regimented because the infrastructure of the country had been devastated by a long twelve year war for Haitian independence.
I doubt if merchants from France were eager to trade with Haiti after the revolution. Also, Thomas Jefferson imposed an embargo against Haiti. France and the U.S. refused to recognize Haiti as an independent country. Thomas Jefferson according to Julius Scott, the Afro-American and Caribbean historian at the University of Michigan remarked "confine this disease to its island" in urging the British to stop trading with Haiti.
The educated class in Haiti were the "light-skinned elite"; the majority of other Blacks had no education and were recently enslaved.
If Dessalines was "reviled by generations of Haitians", why approximately one hundred years later would they name their national anthem after him? The main author's comments just don't make sense. If you have a basis for your comments, provide a source.
Damballa 21:28, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Titling
Shouldn't this be title "Jaques I of Haiti", in accordance to naming policy? After all, Napoleon Bonaparte's articles is titled "Napoleon I of France"... -Alex, 12.220.157.93 00:38, 27 January 2006 (UTC).
- I'd say yes. Do you want to rename the article? 69.112.248.103 04:14, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
How do you rename articles? I'm kinda newish to this. -Alex, 12.220.157.93 22:44, 16 February 2006 (UTC).
-
- I'd say no, because his last name is generally better-known than his first name (which is not the case for Napoleon), as evidenced by the naming of the national anthem (La Dessalinienne) and a city after him. Funnyhat 22:56, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
in respose to the message which questioned the use of the term 'colored'...the term has differetn connotations in Haiti than it did in racist lexicon of the us. The term can also mean creole or basically a racial mixed person of the lighter variant of skin. in certain courtries even today colored is a positive term being of higher social rank than 'black' or 'creole' (it all depends on what carribian island are talking about) I agree that this article is exceedingly bias against Dessalines. Also the fact that he has remained so much popularity in Haiti must be disscussed further. He is in fact the only one of the revolutionary heros of haiti to become a lwa (a god of the voudoun pantheon) there should be somthing on that. 143.229.108.78SLP
[edit] Heads will roll
The phrase "heads will roll", according to several results in a google search originated with Hitler in the 1940's. Interestingly, according to Andrew Selsky, the Associated Press' Chief of Caribbean News, the phrase was used by Dessalines in 1802:
- "...One voter told me on election day that heads would roll and buildings would burn if Preval didn't win.
- "It is a phrase that resonates in Haiti. Army Gen. Jean-Jacques Dessalines uttered those words when he led a rebellion against French troops and colonists in 1802. Many of the French were decapitated, their homes torched. "
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-5611684,00.html
Just thought it was interesting and maybe there is a place for it in the article. 69.112.248.103 04:14, 13 February 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Overall quality of Dessalines article
Sentences such as: "The black people and other minority groups all fought against this system that he was imposing upon them." are incomprehensible. How are blacks considered to be a minority group in Haiti? This does not make any sense.
There are not many sources given and the view of Dessalines wildly diverges from that of many Haitians and scholars. Reasons for this should be given. 15:30, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Spelling of the country Haïti vs. Haiti
Why is Haiti spelled Haïti (with accent trema on the first "i" on this page ? 00:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Remove last two sections
I would ask that the last two sections have been filled by an essay. I would sugest that it should be deleted, it does not read as a encyclopadia or at least, move it to the talk page.Francisco Valverde 07:20, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
- Whatever our opinions are, we are in the editing of an encylopaedia. There are many places in the internet were you can express your political views. Wikipedia has to try to be as unbias as possible. --Francisco Valverde 07:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Who should define White systematic terror in Haiti
Publishing this article itself from a bias source is bias in itself. The article in itself is a political statement, if it is not - please provide the basis.
Why should offended Afrogenics not respond to an article that is insensitive and bias to the legacy and contributions of Jan Jak Desalin (Jean Jacques Dessalines) to humanity? Why should African people accept the vilification of their leaders? Why should the African people of Ayiti (Haiti) accept the minimization of their victories over white terror? Why should these questions not be raise in an intellectual forum/platform like Wikipedia?
If Wikipedia provide a platform to those who propagate suppositions, extrapolations, misinformation and factual errors as facts - Why should those responding to these historical errors, white supremacist views use another platform to expose their racist, naive or misinformed views?
If Desalin directed the same wholesale massacres of whites/slave owners as they committed against the kidnapped/stolen Africans of Ayiti - they would not be a race/skin color problem in Ayiti today.
If Desalin was vicious as some white historians portray him to be, the corrupt niggerized/affranchisized elites of Ayiti would not have the ability today to prevent Ayiti from celebrating its 200 year victory over slavery and white supremacist terror. White supremacy have killed and terrorized more Afrogenics in Ayiti and around the world than Desalin ever did to the Europeans.
Today American, European policy makers refuse to let the Ayitian (Haitian) people control their destiny, but at every turn Desalin gave safe passage to Americans living Au Cap Haitien or Jeremie (check the history books, see for yourself) when he had a chance to slaughter them. White supremacists and their agents/their restaveks in Haiti do not offer the same to the African masses of Ayiti.
Why does French brutal and genocidal policies against the Africans of Ayiti are not called massacres but Dessalines reactions their brutality are. Dessalines used the same tactics that the French military and French beneficiaries of slavery use against him and his people.
Where did Dessalines learn these tactics? What was Dessalines experience on the plantation under French hegemony? Should we measure brutality only in color gradation?
How many Europeans were killed, massacred or enslaved by Desalin? How many Africans were killed, enslaved by the whites of Ayiti? How many Afrogenics were kidnapped raped and killed during the slave trade?
How many Afrogenics/Africans/Ayitians must be killed by the French and other appendages of white supremacist terror for it to be a holocaust? How many Africans must be killed, enslaved, terrorized for it to be said that the whites/slaves owners of Ayiti were full of hate, they hated black people or were anti black.
Was Jan Jak Dessalin more hateful, more brutal, more savage and more uncivilized than the French, the Spaniards, the British and the Americans in Ayiti?
Who is in a better place to define terror – Rochambeau, Bonaparte, Las Casas, the children of slave owners or the descendants/children of Boukman, Makandal, Dessalines, Toussaint Louverture, Padre Jean, Charlemagne Peralte, Defile, Benoit Batraville or the millions of African who were kidnapped, tortured, terrorized, labored and died to produce wealth for western capitalist interests?
--Kwameawoyo 19:53, 8 September 2006 (UTC)Kwame Awoyo
[edit] Major rewrite
I've done a rewrite, adding a lot of information on Dessalines' life up to the end of the Revolution. The post-revolution sections still need a lot of work. The Revolution section can be fleshed out more - especially regarding the "brutal tactics" used by both Dessalines and his opponents. There should be something on how his actions were viewed by Haitians and French at the time of the Revolution, as well as how they are viewed today. I have left the NPOV tags on until these issues are resolved. Jwillbur 20:07, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Early Life: Birthplace
Dessalines was either born in Africa OR in Haiti. please rewrite. --Sensodyne 17:54, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
I think the closest historian to the period, Madiou, said he was born on Habitation Cormier. Nobody at the time called him a "bossale", which would have been expected had he actually been born in Africa. There were some African-born slaves who rose to positions of authority within slavery but they were rare. Much more common would be for a Creole slave to be promoted. --Stewart king (talk) 23:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
