Talk:Jean-François de La Rocque de Roberval

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Jean-François de La Rocque de Roberval article.
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Jean-François de La Rocque de Roberval was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: August 16, 2006
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[edit] GA Comments

This article is well done. All it needs to achieve GA status is to lengthen the lead slightly in accordance with the directions at WP:LEAD.

Since I've been working on French Canadian military in Indaian, I've notice and info box that might be of use to you. It is at the bottom of the article Lieutenant General of New France.

I'll put the nom on hold for the lead expansion. The box is not required but is a great nav aid. --CTSWyneken(talk) 13:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Failed "good article" nomination

This article failed good article nomination because the hold expired. This is how the article, as of August 16, 2006, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: good, readable style, but is not WP:LEAD compliant
2. Factually accurate?: reasonably well documented
3. Broad in coverage?: appears to be missing something of Roberval's early life
4. Neutral point of view?: yes
5. Article stability? yes
6. Images?: one PD image

When these issues are addressed, the article can be resubmitted for consideration. Thanks for your work so far. --CTSWyneken(talk) 13:54, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pirate?

Can someone come up with better references to identify Roberval with the pirate Roberto Baal? I've checked the Kris E. Lane book and he gives "Seignieur (sic) de Roberval" barely a passing mention, with no source referenced. Reviews on Amazon criticize this book for being light on original sources (I'm otherwise finding it a good read). The other reference given is to a book about fiction written in the 19th century. The French sources do acknowledge that he captured English ships in 1541, but say that he returned to France after the failed Canadian expedition. Furthermore, the wording of the article, saying he went "a pirating" make it seem like a hoax. Can someone with knowledge of the Spanish sources argue more convincingly that Roberto Baal was Roberval? Otherwise I move to rewrite this passage as romantic speculation. Eulalie Écho 14:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

  • The book about fictional pirates has an introduction about real pirates. Please read it. If you don't like the phrase "a pirating" please edit the sentence to make it more encyclopedic sounding. --Bejnar 23:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  • For a Spanish source identifying Roberval as the pirate who attacked the Spanish Main, see Dr. Gustavo Placer Cervera's March 2005 article in Sol y Son Magazine at "Un aristócrata francés convertido en pirata asaltó Santiago de Cuba". Dr. Cervera is an historian by profession. --Bejnar 00:33, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
  • See also the article by Francisco Echevarría Saumell, a member of the Asociación de Historia Marítima y Naval Iberoamericana (Association for Ibero-American Maritime and Naval History), at "La navegación en el devenir cubano del siglo XVI", where he says:
"En 1542 se desató otro conflicto, estado natural entre Francia y España, con lo que aumentaren los piratas francos en nuestras aguas. Se dice que aquel año salieron de Bretaña y Normandía unos treinta y cinco barcos con rumbo al Caribe. Entonces los franceses no atacaron Cuba, pero en 1543 Jean François de la Rocque, Señor de Roberval, quien había sido nombrado teniente general del Canadá por Francisco I, es enviado al Caribe, convirtiéndose así en el primer corsario “de calidad” que aquel país enviaba a las Antillas. El 7 de septiembre Robert Baal, que es como lo conocían los españoles de su tiempo, envió un patache contra Santiago de Cuba, en cuya bahía desvalijó un navío cargado de mercancías. Echados a tierra con el ánimo de atacar el caserío, su posición geográfica un poco alta con respecto a la costa y la defensa de los santiagueros, hicieron que los piratas lo meditaran bien y prefirieran retirarse hacia Isla de Pinos para unirse al resto de la escuadra del Señor de Roberval, sin saber que había zarpado hacia La Habana con intenciones de entrarla a saco. La tuvieron ante su vista el 31 de octubre. Sobre los hechos que ése y los siguientes días acaecieron hay muchas versiones, pero ninguna asentada en documentos que den fe de ello. La más extendida dice que los atacantes desembarcaron por la caleta de Juan Guillén o de San Lázaro, y que a campo traviesa se dirigieron a la villa donde, avisados de su presencia, los esperaban los vecinos, quienes les hicieron tan fuerte resistencia con sus armas y los pedreros emplazados en la Fuerza Vieja, que no les quedó más remedio que dar la vuelta, tomar sus bajeles y remontar el Canal de Bahama rumbo a Europa."
“In 1542 another conflict ensued between France and Spain, which increase the privateers in our [Cuban] waters. One says that that year they left Britain and Normandy for the Caribbean with about thirty-five. At that time the French did not attack Cuba, but in 1543 Jean François of the Rocque, Seigneur de Roberval, that had been named general lieutenant of Canada by Francis I, arrived in the Caribbean, becoming thus the first privateer "of quality" that that country [France] sent to the Antilles. On the 7th of September, Robert Baal, that is the name that the Spaniards knew him by at the time, sent forces against Santiago of Cuba, in whose bay they ransacked a loaded merchant ship. Artillery fire from a small village above the bay, caused that the pirates to reconsider and to retire towards the Island of Pines, where they were to reunite with the rest of the fleet of Seigneur de Roberval, little knowing that the fleet had weighed anchor and sailed to Havana with intentions to sack it. The fleet sighted Havana on the 31th of October. There are several versions of the facts about what happened on that day and in the following days, but there is no single document which provides an authentic version. In general, the attackers disembarked at the creek of Juan Guillén or of San Lazaro, and went cross-country to the town, where, warned of their approach, the inhabitants resisted with arms and the guns located in the Fuerza Vieja, so fiercely that the invaders had no recourse but to return to their vessels and through the Channel of Bahama set course for Europe.”

The article goes on to mention the attack on Baracoa of the 17th April 1546 by one of Roberval's ships captained by a certain Hallebarde. Of course there is also the perfectly good English language source with the identification of Robert Baal and Jean-François de la Roque de Roberval, namely Lane, Kris E. (1998) Pillaging the Empire: Piracy in the Americas, 1500-1750 M.E. Sharpe, Armonk, New York ISBN 0765602571. Bradford, Alfred S. (2007) Flying the Black Flag: A Brief History of Piracy Praeger, New York, ISBN 0-275-97781-1, may also be worth checking out next month. --Bejnar 01:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm a trained historian myself. When I ask about a source, I mean a primary source, aka evidence. Have any of these researchers come up with a document that clearly establishes that Roberto Baal and Roberval were one and the same, or did their names just sound alike? Eulalie Écho 00:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

And once again, the Lane book is a fun read, but a bit light, the kind of history book I can carry around in my pocket and read on the bus. Just because something is printed doesn't make it true. Lane names Roberval in a list of pirate attacks but doesn't go into any detail about him and doesn't give a reference. Thanks for providing the Spanish-language references though; it's clear that the Spanish literature accepts this as fact. What I'd like to know is, who first linked Roberval to piracy in the Carribean, and based on what evidence? Eulalie Écho 15:28, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

      • Apologies to Dr. Lane who removed any mention of Roberval from the second edition of his insightful book. Eulalie Écho (talk) 02:36, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
  • You indicated Just because something is printed doesn't make it true. I agree whole-heartedly, but first a disclaimer: The Wikipedia doesn't deal with primary facts. See Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources wherever possible. You raise an interesting question. While I was researching for the article last August, I ran across one source in Spanish, that unfortunately I didn't record at the time (or lost my note since), that said Roberto Baal used St. John's, Newfoundland as a base for his Caribbean piracy. That source did not mention Jean-François de la Roque de Roberval. However, I can't imagine that many Frenchmen sailing around in the New World in 1542-1547. Nonetheless, in the history of Brazil I did read about traders from Normandy having established contact with the natives and trading for brazilwood at Rio de Janeiro prior to the founding (1555) of the French colony there. It is noteworthy that the Spanish sources often refer to the attacks of Roberto Baal as being by such and such a captain under Roberto Baal, for example the attack on Baracoa by Hallebarde mentioned above. Roberval's compadre Bidoux de Lartigue was apparently from Normandy which seems to have only been lightly tied to the French crown at the time, that is, Paris did not seem to exercise much control over Norman shipping. In some sources about Roberval and de Lartigue's first privateering (1541), not only did they take English ships, but they are said to have taken Spanish ships as well. I couldn't get a good handle on that and felt that the later depredation on Spanish shipping might have been conflated with the earlier. But the reverse is also possible, especially since there is indication that Norman "merchants" were not adverse to taking Spanish prizes. But all of this is before we have good records. If I get to the Madrid archives, I'll let you know. Unfortunately, I am not near a large university library and almost all of the books that I have looked at on piracy start after 1600. You may note that I left out the whole bit about Roberval abandoning his niece on a river island. It seems to be well documented, but it didn't add much, if anything, about him. --Bejnar 03:34, 17 March 2007 (UTC)