User talk:Jdorney
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I hope you are not going to leave because of Sarah. I can well understand your frustration, but from what I have seen you are a knowledgeable editor with an ability to deal evenhandedly with contentious material. I've seen too many good editors driven off Wikipedia, and it's something that really bothers me.
I know very little about Sarah's history on Wiki and I rarely look at pages relating to Ireland, but from what I've seen she does not appear to be very interested in creating encyclopedic content. Have you considered starting an RFC against her? Maybe you have more support than you think. Gatoclass (talk) 10:27, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
- Hmm, I see she has already been put on probation, so an RFC would obviously be superfluous. I really think you are giving up rather too easily Jd, and I hope you will reconsider your position and return to editing soon. Gatoclass (talk) 10:46, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Gatoclass, thanks for for the message but I really don't have the energy right now to be constantly fighting with people who are not on the level. Debates I can handle but pov wars are a complete waste of time and energy. I'm taking a break for now. This isn't the first time I've come across people like this but I would rather let other people deal with it this time.
Jdorney (talk) 13:05, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
- I can certainly understand that, I am an occasional editor on the Israel-Palestine pages and so I know all about edit wars, and am fully aware of how exasperating they can be.
- We all need a Wikibreak from time to time, I hope you enjoy yours and come back fresh and re-energized when you are ready. Regards, Gatoclass (talk) 13:18, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Flags
Interesting chat. But as you are actively editing (edit warring?) on a number of "battle templates" I think we need to discuss the issue. Normal practice on these boxes right across Wiki does not require a combatant to be an "official" (whatever that meant in the 1600s) state in order to be represented by a flag or emblem. Sarah777 (talk) 00:47, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Ok, if Hugh O'neill had a banner then stick it up there. But he never claimed to be representing 'Ireland', nor was he a representative of any state called Ireland. So it's simply incorrect to label it like that. By way of comparison, the battles of the 1798 rebellion have the United Irishmen down as combatants and rightly so, although they were a specifically seperatist nationalist organisation, unlike Hugh O'Neill and his allies.
Incidentally, whether a combatant was official (state) or not had great importance in 17th century thinking. An enemy soldier was entitled to all kinds of rights and obligations. A rebel was, in contemporary thought, a criminal against legitimate authority and therefore God (because Kings were belived to have been selected by God) and was entitled to no rights of surrender, treatment etc etc. Jdorney (talk) 14:39, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
- So not much has changed then? OK - point accepted. But an important question - was this '17th century thinking' accepted by the Gaelic culture at the time? Sarah777 (talk) 23:24, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Tough question. In the Annals of the Four Masters you'll find references to the Geraldines being exterminated by God in the Desmond Rebellions in punishment for having rebelled against their lawful sovereign. ; “It was no wonder that the vengeance of God should exterminate the Geraldines for their opposition to their Sovereign, whose predecessors had granted to their ancestors as patrimonial lands that tract of country extending from Dun-caoin in Kerry to the Meeting of the Three Waters, and from the Great Island of Ard-Nemidh in Hy-Liathain to Limerick”.
On the other hand, you will also find in the Annals a lament for outcome of the battle of Kinsale, which has the 'Gaels' of Ireland fighting against the 'English'. The Annals describe them fighting for their 'patrimony' (In Irish I think duiche which means birthright) - i.e. their personal lands and their religion.
“They [the Irish] met no mighty man whom they did not subdue, and no force over which they did not prevail, so long as the Lord and fortune favoured, that is, so long as they did the will of their Lord God, and kept his commandments and his will...had God permitted them to fight stoutly with one mind and one accord, in defence of their religion and their patrimony, in the strait of difficulty in which they had the enemy on this occasion… Manifest was the displeasure of God, and misfortune to the Irish [Gaels] of fine Fodhla [Ireland], on this occasion; for, previous to this day, a small number of them had more frequently routed many hundreds of the English, than they had fled from them, in the field of battle, in the gap of danger, up to this day. Immense and countless was the loss in that place, although the number slain was trifling; for the prowess and valour, prosperity and affluence, nobleness and chivalry, dignity and renown, hospitality and generosity, bravery and protection, devotion and pure religion, of the Island, were lost in this engagement”.
So it's very complicated. Sometimes Gaelic writers accepted the authority of the English monarch and sometimes they didn't.
Also, just as many Gaelic lords fought against O'Neill as fought for him. Not in all likeliehood becuase they had allegiance to one side or the other, but because they judged it to be in their interest. Many of them also changed sides not once but several times depending on who was winning. Check out Florence MacCarthy or Niall Garbh O'Donnell for example.
