Talk:Jay Penske

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[edit] Sourcing

This "article" seems entirely self-serving, and likely written by Penske himself as advertising. Who cares about how many high schools he attended?? Is any of this dribble documented?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.60.132.69 (talk) 14:07, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Listing someone's high schools, colleges, major athletic/honor society accomplishments (ESPECIALLY national All-American awards) while in school is standard biographical information. It is included in EVERYONE's biography if it is sourced. Why do wish to remove it from Penske's biography? What is your problem with him? It is not self-serving since he did not add it. Having someone's background shows where they came from on their rise to notability. If your saying that I'm Penske, then how do you explain how Penske could have taken hundreds of pictures of most locations in eastern Wisconsin over the course of the past year when he lives in California? Royalbroil 13:09, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

With all due respect, has he accomplished anything other than being born of golden sperm? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.245.142 (talk) 21:22, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Owning a car in the Indy 500 is something that 99.9999%+ of all people will never accomplish. Royalbroil 03:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Interestingly, I just read Roger Penske's Wikipedia page, and it does not mention his high school records. Perhaps that is because Roger has accomplished something?

The following is the OFFICIAL 1998 High School Lacrosse All American Team. Mr. Penske was indeed NOT an All American.

1998 Boys' High School All-American Lacrosse Team

California Ross Johnson - University H.S. Todd Parker - Serra Jurjen Westra - Palo Alto Spencer Wright - Serra


Connecticut Andrew Barnett - Darien A.J. Cappelli - Wilton Jamie Kennedy - Darien Tom Knechtel - Darien Doug McCann - New Canaan Justin Reed - Darien Ryan Myerberg - Brunswick Andy Stockfisch - Wilton

Delaware Josh Bergey - Tatnall Jim Derrick - Cape Henlopen Scott Steele - Cape Henlopen John Wyatt - Cape Henlopen


Eastern New England Grayson Fertig - Tabor Academy Kip Hale - Pomfret Kyle O’Brien - Phillips Academy Chris Rotelli - Moses Brown

Florida Kevin Connelly - Winter Park Danny Hogan - Lake Brantley Christopher Reilly - Winter Park

South Florida Pat Moylan - St. Andrew’s Brenden Winkler - Palmer Trinty


Illinois John Collins - Lake Forest James Franke - New Trier


Maryland Levi Blankenship - Queen Anne’s County Kyle Campbell - Mt. Hebron Jon Fellows - Kent County Conor Gill - St. Paul’s Jon Higdon - South River Brad Hopkins - Kent County Ruebon Kraft - North Harford Alex Lieske - Gilman P.J. Paolisso - Centennial Joe Rosenbaum - McDonogh Andrew Walenga - North County


Maine Tom DeCourcy - Wiscasset Glenn Gorden - Yarmouth Zach Herbert - Cape Elizabeth Pat Myers - Kennebunk Jon Thompson - North Yarmouth

Massachusetts Bruce Frady - South Hadley Tim Gosier - Concord-Carlisle Mike Harney - Concord-Carlisle Brian Holland - Weymouth Jeff King - Winchester Terrance Riley - Hingham Andy Sbordone - Newton North Peter Watts - Wayland Scott Yavarow - Billerica

Michigan Travis Harper - Brother Rice Casey Olejniczak - Orchard Lake Tyler Robinson - Waverly Josh Tankersly - Novi Phil Vincenti - Brother Rice

Missouri Kevin Corcoran - Lafayette Steve Douglas - Country Day Pat Hogan - DeSmet Jesuit

New Hampshire Mason Goodhand - Nashua Todd Koss - Nashua Patrick O’Reilly - Pinkerton Academy Tony Senia - Pinkerton Academy

New Jersey Mike Abarelli - Delbarton Mike Baly - Westfield Mike Chepucavage - Ridgewood Dan Clark - Moorestown Paul Donahue - Fairlawn Anthony Perna - Montclair Phil Schambach - Bridgewater-Raritan Scott Schroeder - Summit Mike Springer - Ridgewood Brendan Tierney - Hun School Anatole Wedmid - Bridgewater-Raritan Bowen White - Summit

New York Nick Ballou - Irondequoit Liam Banks - Ward Melville Dan Chemotti - West Genesee Josh Coffman - Carthage Chad DeBolt - Waterloo Scott Dooley - Yorktown Will Driscoll - Fairport Derek Elvin - Orchard Park Jayson Feliciano - CBA Mike Ferrari - Manhasset Guilian Gary - Horseheads Gunnar Goettelmann - Manhasset Christian Gould - Waldorf Matt Grosso - Ward Melville Scott Farrell - Corning East Dave Haddeland - Mahopac Tom Hardy - Tully Scott Harvey - Suffren Dave Hunter - East Syracuse-Minoa Jason Kahn - Northport Jeff Kinsella - Fayetteville-Manlius Paul Koechler - Fordham Prep Steve Kowalik - Grand Island Ryan McClay - Mahopac Matt McFarland - Garden City Nick Murtha - Manhasset Mike Mollot - Sachem Mark Morley - Canton Jeff Nunziato - Shaker Adam Oppenheimer - Amherst Tim Pearson - Comsewogue Nick Polanco - Oceanside B.J. Prager - Garden City Brandon Seneca - Gowanda Doug Staab - Garden City Erik Refvik - Mahopac Jim Regan - Chaminade Colin Renz - Hackley P.J. Rosecrans - Niskayuna Nick Russo - Comsewogue Bill St. George - Baldwin Rob Scipioni - Mahopac Al Tofani - Liverpool Bryan Walker - Hicksville

Northern New England Russ Mcllvain - Holderness Chad Wittman - Vermont Academy

Western New England John Galvin - Kent Josh Heller - Avon Old Farms Roy Lynam - Westminster Derek Nowak - Hotchkiss Cameron O’Meara - Deerfield Academy

North Carolina Natty Felder - Charlotte Country Day Scott Gordon - Durham Riverside Johnny Seivold - Durham Academy


Ohio Bryan England - Upper Arlington Carl Ewing - Shaker Heights Steve Dusseau - Upper Arlington Mark Koontz - Upper Arlington Joel Miller - Worthington Kilbourne


Pennsylvania Blake Beachler - Mt. Lebanon Ryan Binder - Penncrest Kris Blindenbacher - Haverford School John Brasko - Springfield Andrew Cleghorn - Ridley Josh Grossman - Radnor Brian Hunt - Unionville Jamie Lockard - Archbishop Carroll Kevin Merchant - Marple Newtown Derek Mitchell - Germantown Academy Mike Rafalko - Sewickley Academy Dusty Smith - Henderson Scott Solow - Lower Merion

Tennessee Craig Patterson - Webb Ben Bailey - Memphis University

Texas Garrett Cox - St. Mary,s Robert Eifler - St. John’s School

Vermont Willy Mackey - Middlebury Dan Williamson - Woodstock

Virginia Matt Brock - Collegiate School Marshall Croft - St. Christohers Nate Rullman - St. Anne’s-Belfield Mike Kanach - Annandale Eric Leibowitz - Annandale Christian Castellani - Langley Sung Hwang - W.T. Woodson

Washington Brady Johnson - Bainbridge Todd Thorpe - Curtis

Washington, D.C. Sebastian Astrada - Bullis Correll Caufield - Walter Johnson Tucker Foote - St. Stephen’s & St. Agnes Bill Glading - Gonzaga Dan Hauber - Watkins Mill Dan McCormick - Landon School Collin Meerholz - Calvert L.C. Reid Mortimor - Episcopal

Since the USA Today did not name a Player of the Year for Lacrosse, he also could not have been chosen!

It is extremely important that you do not remove an inline citation if the result of your action is to remove that citation from the entire article. I have returned that citation to a different use of the citation so that everyone doesn't get an error message. Royalbroil 03:06, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Is there a source for Mr. Penske being on the Board of Directors for the Wharton School of Business? Thomas S. Robertson denies this and plans to examine closely the claims of Penske. User:75.45.245.142
Any source for Penske being an the Library Board of Directors? Cynthia Cronin-Kardon Librarian, Lippincott Library, University of Pennsylvania, states that she has never heard of Mr. Penske and he is NOT on their board of directors. Therefore, this fact is also incorrect and should be removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.245.142 (talk) 14:44, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
The sources were there, but the wording was poor. They are all found on the second source "Jay has served as an Advisor or Director to the following boards: The Wharton Entrepreneurial School; Firefly Mobile, Inc.; Velocity Services, Inc.; Penske Corporation; and P&C Media." from [1] Royalbroil 15:54, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Are you serious? The University says Penske is on neither Board of Directors. Just because Penske's press agent publishes something does NOT make it true. Paper does not care what one writes on it! I can show you sources of all sorts of obvious lies ("The Holocaust never happened", etc) but that does NOT make the source correct. When the Librarian says he is not on the Board for the Library and the business school Dean says he is not on the Board for the business school, these are PRIMARY sources which are far more reliable than a press release generated by Penske. Special:Contributions/75.45.245.142 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.245.142 (talk) 16:06, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflicts) Correction: the source does not support the library board of directors, so I have removed it as unsourced. The sentence was added by an anon user with major problems of sockpuppetry/vandalism diff]. I have reviewed this edit and removed some content as unsourced. Royalbroil 16:09, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Almost nothing about this person is sourced! The only thing which can be confirmed is that Roger Penske is his father, all else is driven by press releases. Special:Contributions/75.45.245.142 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.245.142 (talk) 16:16, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

You have a valid point about that Penske's bio on his company's website not be a reliable source. It is considered usable if it is not contested, but you are contesting in this case. It must be found at another reliable source to be included per WP:RS. From WP:SOURCE policy (written in stone)

"Questionable sources are those with a poor reputation for fact-checking or with no editorial oversight. Questionable sources should only be used in articles about themselves. (See below.) Articles about such sources should not repeat any contentious claims the source has made about third parties, unless those claims have also been published by reliable sources."

Your primary sources comment is wrong however. Per the WP:SOURCES section on the WP:VERIFY policy, only THIRD party resources should be used, basically the print media.

"In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers. As a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny involved in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the evidence and arguments of a particular work, the more reliable it is."

Magazines should be added to this list. Talking to the librarian at the library doesn't work since she is a first party. Give me some time to find reliable sources on this article. Royalbroil 16:23, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I'm adding the "inuse" template to the article now, so don't touch the article until I'm done. It will take some time to rewrite the article. Royalbroil 16:26, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Jay, I am sorry to tell you this, but The DEAN of the Wharton School of Business should be a very reliable souce to confirm who is on HIS board of directors. Further, the Librarian at the same school should be a reliable source of who is on HER board of directors. In both cases, the information provided by you is simply invalid and most of the information you list here is riddled with fraud and deceit. To presume that any article which was generated by one of your silly press releases is a more valid source than the actual organization involved is just nuts. Special:Contributions/75.45.245.142 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.245.142 (talk) 16:33, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

I would like to see primary source documentation of his Quill and Library Charity work!! Such a Primary Source is better than any other. Special:Contributions/75.45.245.142 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.245.142 (talk) 16:38, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but Jay Penske did not play for the University of Pennsylvania while a student. Therefore, this Yahoo.com article is a pretty terrible scource since this error is mentioned in the lead. I would suggest that you contact their sports info department or look at the UPenn website for these sports where Penske is NOT listed on these teams! Special:Contributions/75.45.245.142 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.245.142 (talk) 17:04, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

There are 2 different stores named "Dragon Books" in LA. Neither is owned by Penske. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.245.142 (talk) 17:07, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

What exists now is all well-sourced from reliable sources. Your first source requirements are against POLICY (written in stone), and I guarentee that a request for comment will agree with me - an Associated Press release is golden as a reliable source. You have to come up with a reliable source to disagree. Again a first party source is not reliable. Anyone can say that they have talked to the Dean of Wharton or a librarian. I can say that I did. That is why third party sources are required. I urge you to ask here. Royalbroil 17:14, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Your "reliable" source was from Yahoo, not the AP. This "source" implies that Penske played intra-collegiate sports -- he did not. You mis-represented this "source" to state that Jay co-owned the car at Indy, whereas the article clearly states that Roger Penske loaned the car to Jay's co-owned team to drive. If a first-hand primary source is not reliable, then Wikipedia is fairly useless. If I can choose between a personal primary source of a historical event by someone who was there, or a poorly written commentary from someone who heard about the event, I will take the primary source every time. Would you rather read the Constitution or an article about it?? A simple decision! Special:Contributions/75.45.245.142 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.245.142 (talk) 17:22, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

This discussion has been brought up at WikiProject Motorsport in an attempt to generate a discussion from a larger number of people. Royalbroil 19:14, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't matter what source you would rather use, rather it's the source that policy dictates should be used. If that in your eyes makes Wikipedia "fairly useless" then so be it. The "reliable source" IS from the Press Association - read the byline: "by Bruce Martin PA SportsTicker Contributing Editor". It is therefore classed as a reliable source. I can find no other sources (other than unverifiable, unpublished claims made by yourself) that dispute this. AlexJ 23:16, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Jay, but just because you want to parade around like a peacock, does not make you a peacock. I am comfortable that the people at Wikipedia would also be a bit uncomfortable about you writing this article about yourself. Again, this source which you originally claimed to be The Associated Press is NOT the AP. This supposed source is little more than an internet blog on Yahoo. PA Sports is not the AP!! Sorry, but this is the fact. That said, this article is full of errors, including: 1) Jay Penske (you) never played collegiate sports. (Confirmed from the UPenn website) 2) Jay Penske (you) are not on any sort of Entrepenurial Board at the Wharton School of Business However: 3) This source does clearly state that you (Jay Penske) do not own the car used by your "co-owned" team at Indy, and that your dad owned the car and loaned it and the mechanics to the team. It also states that other teams question this also -- all issues that you intentionally neglect to mention, and in fact intentionally alter. Further: 4) You ariginally claimed to be an All-American in lacrosse, but the official team does not list the name Jay Penske. 5) You claimed to be the USA Today Player of the Year, but the USA Today never selected such a person in 1998 6) You originally claimed to be on the Board of Directors for Wharton -- obviously not ture. 7) You originally claimed to be on the Board of Directors for the UPenn library -- again, a lie.

There were more lies in your original listing, and a few still remain in this listing. All of that as a backdrop, I think these sorts of issues are the biggest problems Wikipedia faces. If anyone can write this dribble, then Wikipedia is not relevant. Special:Contributions/75.45.245.142 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.45.245.142 (talk) 14:37, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Huh? You think I'm Jay Penske? Or you think Royalbroil is Jay Penske? Read my response again. I didn't say the source was from the Associated Press, I said it was from the Press Association who are the national news agency of the UK, and as such are a reliable source. AlexJ 13:57, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Referencing

Hi Royal. I shouldn't pay too much mind to the anon above - personal assertions should never take precedence over references. Having said that, there are a couple of legitimate referencing concerns:

  • Your ref 13 is a Wikipedia mirror, so it's effectively a self reference. The Gina Gershon Wikipedia article does not reference the claim that she has dated Jay Penske, so unless you can find an independent ref, that should go.
  • You're using the VSI site to ref the company's achievements, probably not a good idea. Can you find another source?
  • Could use a better ref for the library board thing - is there anything at their website?
  • The Jordana Brewster website looks a bit weird for an official site - are you sure it's legit?
  • Do we really need a 'has dated' section?

Cheers. 4u1e 18:17, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

These points were all re-added by an anon. They were all part of this article before it was rewritten. I will revert the edit based on these concerns. I would appreciate if you would comment on the article as it exists without these problems. Royalbroil 18:54, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
OK - gotcha. 4u1e —Preceding comment was added at 08:48, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Yup - all fine. Reliable sources, correctly used. For the Wharton board, perhaps better to say 'as of 2007' thn 'currently', because at some point in the future it will no longer be true. I would also suggest you could just list ref 3 once at the end of the para on Indy - but that's a discussion we've had before ;-). 4u1e 08:56, 26 October 2007 (UTC)


-- References added/sources included:

a) VSI and Dragon Bookstore references verified by sources--Detroit Free Press http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070525/NEWS/705250478/1002/SPORTS Added source to VSI company--commented out by Royalbroil --new source: The Columbus Dispatch Newspaper. additional info for inclusion would be that both Steve Wozniak (founder of Apple w/ Steve Jobs) and Reed Hundt, (former Chairmen of the United States FCC) are on the company's board + others... see http://www.vsi.net/board.aspx.

b) University of Pennsylvania Library Board reference found on School site--http://www.upenn.edu/almanac/volumes/v53/n24/trustees.html.

c) All American Lacrosse issue resolved--Penske was all-american in Lacrosse in 1997 not 1998 as suggested and questioned by 68.60.132.69 (above) source: http://www.insidelacrosse.com/page.cfm?PageRID=126804 -- this corresponds the same year 1997 that he set the school records as cited from the School website.

d) Charities information added back to listing--Quill Book Awards cited with Foundation website. Indy 500 charity donations, large in size and profile--see all-star altheles included and cited. USA Today source added http://www.usatoday.com/sports/motor/irl/2007-05-20-indy-500-qualifying_N.htm

e) Removal of Person Life items bcause suggestion by user 4u1e: additional sources found for dating info re: Gina Gershon: NY Post Newspaper site http://www.nypost.com/seven/06262007/gossip/liz/mariane_pearl_asked_for_jolie_liz_liz_smith.htm?page=0

66.171.52.240 10:10, 11 November 2007 (UTC).