Talk:Javelin (weapon)

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1 Against merger with Pilum
2 Merge with Spear
3 Mistake
4 Shank?
5 Greek Mythology

[edit] Against merger with Pilum

I specifically started this new article because while I was searching for "Javelin" Wikipedia took me to Pilum. Pilum is a type of heavy javelin but javelin is not a type of Pilum like Sarissa is a type of pike but pike is not a type of Sarisssa. There were numerous types of javelins along the ages and the Pilum was only one of them. The Pilum is not a group name, not even in classical times, not even in the Roman legion and should not be considered as such. Nik Sage 08:09, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

I removed the merge request. I'm no expert in ancient weaponry so I'll assume good faith here and let you run with it. I hope you can provide a few more references soon, however. Hatch68 03:05, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with Spear

The Spear article says that javelin is a type of spear whereas this article seems to imply that spear and javelin are the same. Is there a difference, and then what is it? If not, we should merge the articles. And what is it that makes Gungnir a javelin rather than a spear? Stefán 19:17, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi Stefán. Spear and Javelin are not the same thing. I'm going to revise the spear article and a few more pole weapon articles as soon as I can so it'll be more clear, but I'll give you a brief explanation about the differentiation. Javelin is a pole weapon used primarily for hurling and not for thrusting (can be utilized by infantry or cavalry). Pike is a pole weapon used primarily for thrusting and not throwing and it is utilized by infantry. Lance is a pole weapon used primarily for thrusting and not throwing and it is utilized by cavalry. Now spear is more difficult. Military historians usually treat spear in a negative manner, i.e. it is not all of the above. Spear is either a pole weapon that can be used both for thrusting and throwing (like most prehistoric pole weapons) or to be a thrusting weapon shorter then a pike or a lance. Sarissa for example is conisdered a pike while Xyston is considered a spear. Most medieval infantry formation armed with a pointed singel edged pole weapon used a spear untill the coming of the swiss who made the use of a pike fashionable again. I hope I've clarified the subject a little. If you have more questions I'll be happy to answer (if I'll know the answer). Nik Sage•Talk 01:27, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Forgot to answer the second part of you question. The thing that makes Gungnir a javelin and not a spear is the fact that it is a javelin (a bit tautological but true). Now for a more serious response. I know Gungnir was a javelin since Odin was nicknamed Darradhr (Javelinman), Biflindi ("Javelin shaker") Geirwaldhr ("Master of the javelin"), Geirolner ("Dispatcher of the javelin") and Geirtyr (God of javelin). Other nicknames that relate to the javelin are Geirlodner, Hnikud and Hnikar. One of the Valkyrie was named Geirskogul ("javelin shaker"). Odin always hurled Gungnir and never used it for thrusting (the only reference I found for thrusting with Gungnir is when odin stabbed himself). Odin throws Gungnir to start of wars. There are of course also spears in Norse mythology. It is hard sometimes to differntiate between javelins and spears in Norse mythology because both of them are called "Geir/Geirr", so you can only know which is which by its usage (there is also a problem with "darradhr", "fleinn" and "spjot" which all mean spear-like weapon). The confusion in names is typical for pole weapons as "Lance" comes from "Lancea" which was a Roman javelin, javelin in German is "Speer" while "Spear" is "Stange" and "Javelin" itself comes from "Javelot" which was an early French spear. Other then that the javelin was very important in Norsemen culture. The javelin symbolized the power of the warrior and was attributed with supernatural powers. In the pagan era warriors were buried with their javelins and little replicas of javelins were find in children tombs. Amulets shaped as little javelins were hanged on dead men'n necks because of their magical powers. In Norsemen warfare the warriors started the battle by throwing javelins and shooting arrows at each other untill they worked themselves up into a furious rage and then they attacked with melee weapons. Nik Sage•Talk 15:14, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mistake

It says that Spainish medievel troops used javelins called assegai. This the African name, so is this correct? 145.253.108.22 11:28, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

The word assegai originated in the Iberian peninsula. Its source is either from the old spanish azagaya or from Berber-Arabic az-zaġāyah. This weapon was first used either at the Iberian peninsula or at Berber Africa. Either way it gained its early fame by being used by Iberian peninsula's soldiers especially the Almogavars. Nik Sage•Talk 19:42, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Shank?

Both this article and the Spiculum article refer to the head having a "shank" but this is neither defined, nor linked. I looked at the shank disambiguation page and am none the wiser. Could someone clarify this please? --Irrevenant [ talk ] 00:06, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Greek Mythology

The Apollonian Guard of the Trojan army were light cavalry unit which was renowned for its javelin throwing capablilities. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.3.113.54 (talk) 18:32, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

The sentence given in this section reminds me strongly of the Hollywood-movie "Troy". I haven´t read the "Iliad", but I thought that Homer only wrote about chariots, and not abot cavalry, well aware of the fact that riding on the horseback was appaerently not common in Bronze Age Greece (I got that information from the book "Warfare in the Classical World" by John Warry). By the way, there are lots of things missing in this article - javelins were, just for example, also used in Asia, by Greek cavalry, Hispanic infantry serving under Hannibal and by Native Americans. --Mike F (German Wikipedia) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.3.113.54 (talk) 18:28, 25 September 2007 (UTC)