Talk:JAS 39 Gripen

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the JAS 39 Gripen article.
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[edit] Any Hungarians aboard?

The article on Gripen in the Hungarian Wikipedia seems to have a lot more information. Any Hungarian-speaking wikipedian that could see if more information could be obtained from there? —Preceding unsigned comment added by LarRan (talk • contribs) 11:44, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comparable aircraft

I think we need some consensus about what aircraft are comparable to the Gripen. First, all aircraft in the same generation (4:th generation) are in my view comparable, that is Gripen, Eurofighter and Rafale.

I do not agree that Gripen is comparable to Rafale and Eurofighter. Perhaps in 'generation' but certainly not in size. The two latter are about twice as heavy. BAe even marketed the Gripen side by side to the Eurofighter because of them not competing with each other.

On the export market the Gripen often competes with the F-16. So, altough the F-16 is a considerable older aircraft it is in some way comparable. Also the F-35 that belongs to the 5:th generation (because of stealth) competes with the Gripen in Norway and Denmark. So also F-35 is in this sense comparable. Olert 09:36, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

I do agree about the F-16 (1/2 generation older) and F-35 (1/2 generation newer) however. Also the F-20 that Bzuk brought up since it was competing with the Gripen for the SwAF purchase. T96 grh 20:25, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
It's true that they are not comparable in size; the Gripen has one engine, the others are twin engined. But there is more than size: All three are european unstable aircraft. All three have fully movable canards. All three have digital flight control systems. All three are designed for communication in networks using datalinks. The functionality of all three aircraft are to great extent controlled by software. All three projects started during the 80:ies and aimed for operational service in the 90:ies. Unfortunately Eurofighter and Rafale have suffered delays and missed that target. But that doesn't make them more modern, they are just more delayed. And at least Gripen and Eurofighter are competing for the same customers in a lot of markets, for example Norway and Denmark.Olert 20:15, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
True, but what you're here would make the aircraft listed under the same generation appear in this page - which they do. With your arguments, The P-51 Mustang and B-24 Liberator would be listed as comparable aircraft because they both had laminar profile wings and cable controlled actuators. IMHO, aircraft should only be comparable if they competed for the same potential sales. The Gripen does not directly compete with Rafale and Typhoon because of the size/cost difference (even there might be competition due to political reasons). Hope you see my point here. T96 grh 23:15, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
No, I would not consider the Mustang and the Liberator comparable. That's since the Mustang is a fighter and the Liberator is a bomber. Gripen, Rafale and Eurofighter are all multirole fighters.
But still, you got a point. The difference in size and cost can not be extreme if the aircraft should be considered comparable. For example F-22 could not, in my view, be considered comparable to Gripen. But that's not only because of size but also becasue it's not a multirole figher but an air superiority fighter. It's also more stealthy than Gripen.Olert 21:27, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I'll take it as we agree that Rafale and Typhoon are not comparable to Gripen then, since they are twice as heavy and twice as expensive. T96 grh 19:35, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Then you have misunderstood me. I weight difference by the factor 2 is large but not extreme in my view. By the way, F-35 is also twice as heavy as the Gripen but it seems you are considering those two comparable? You also said that you consider aircraft comparable if they compete for the same sales. Gripen and Typhoon did compete in Austria and they are competing in Norway and Denmark (as do F-35).Olert 22:30, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
A weight, thrust and range factor of 2 is a significant difference IMHO. Noone would say the contemporary F-15 and F-16 are comparable (2x difference in thrust and MTOW). Same thing with the contemporary Boeing 747 and DC-10 (even though they are both classed as widebodies). As for competing sales, I did mention the whole new dimension of politics. Seldom does the airforce get to pick for free what aircraft to request offers for in international sales. T96 grh 03:48, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I withdraw my comparison with F-35 because of the weight-issue. The F-35 is probably most comparative with the Typhoon (since the F-22 is not offered to foreign customers) and neither are really comparative with Gripen. I'll remove both of them because of the weight class. T96 grh 17:13, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
  • Olert, please do not continue to revert the comparable lists while this is being discussed. It's poor form, and if it violates WP:3RR, can lead to you being blocked by an admin. As to the issue, the Gripen and the others (Typhoon, Rafael, and F-35) are multi-role fighters. However, the Gripen is in a lower weight calss, and it's basic design is a good 5-10 years older than the EuroTwins, and much older than the F-35. In addition, several potential users have dropped consideration of the Typhoon because it's too expensive, and are looking at the Gripen instead. So while technically they are in competition with each other, it's like comparing a mid-size basic sedan with a full-size luxury sedan. Also, ther is a definition at WP:AIR/PC for what factors are to be considered in judging what aricraft are comparable. Please look at them, and try to make your arguments based on them. Thanks. - BillCJ 22:48, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Interesting comment. I started this discussion October 20. On October 27 BillCJ reverted the comparable aircraft list. And he did it without giving any arguments in the discussion! So I'm quite surprised when he says that my behaviour is poor form and might lead to me being blocked by admin. Well, admin better block both of us then.Olert (talk) 22:19, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
latest information releases reveals that the latest version of the Gripen has been pitted against the F-35, making it comparable to F-35 to a certain extent,the new Gripen model has new IRST system,higher payload,improved range,AESA radar which will be developed jointly by SAAB and Thales, improved engine with higher thrust,better landing gear,latest avionics,there may exist super cruise ability (unconfirmed)e.t.c. The only factor that is missing in Gripen is lack of stealth making F-35 better option for air-to-ground missions but the belance certainly in favour of Gripen for air superiority missions as it has an edge over F-35 in the air-to-air missions F-35 not being an air superiority air craft. Daredevil555 (talk) 03:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
  • When was that supposed to have happened? The F-35 is in flight testing now. Maybe a simulation or other aircraft. -Fnlayson (talk) 04:36, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I think pitted against just means that it was put forward to meet the same customer requirements, not sure that makes it comparable. MilborneOne (talk) 11:23, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
The Gripen NG is still under development, and will probably be fielded at around the same time as the F-35. As noted below, we'll probably have a separate article for the NG at some point in the future, and I think it would be appropriate to list the F-35 there at that time, but not here. - BillCJ (talk) 16:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes by pitted I mean it is one of the contender. As regards the air-to-air mission capability that is my personal comment and should be ignored.It is impossible to judge which is a better aircraft at present. Daredevil555 (talk) 20:25, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] SAAF Deliveries?

The article text stated that deliveries to South Africa are to start in March 2008. There are photos on the page now (January 2008) of an already delivered 2 seater at the TFDC Base. So what is the real story? Roger (talk) 12:08, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

The Gripen at AFB Overberg has not yet been delivered. It is still a Saab aircraft. Delivery is scheduled for March/April... Zerbet (talk) 07:32, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! Roger (talk) 19:30, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Teaming agreements

I grouped the various marketing and development agreement subsections under a single Teaming agreements subsection. This is currently under Operational history. But I don't think this is related to operational use, so I suggest moving the Teaming subsection to be under Development. What do you think? Any other suggestions? -Fnlayson (talk) 18:41, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Appears to be a reasonable suggestion - fits better in development. MilborneOne (talk) 18:59, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
  • OK, it's been about a week and no arguments against. So I'll move the Teaming subsection is a little while. -Fnlayson (talk) 16:30, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Good article?

I think the article has benefited from latest changes, and that it now has a very good structure. Isn't it time that it was nominated to a Good Article? LarRan (talk) 19:58, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Should Generation Be Mentioned ?

There are many ways to count aircraft generations most being centric on the nation that does it. I don't see mentioning generation bringing any clarity as it is such a rough estimate most of the time. It would be better to say that the aircraft was designed in the 80's at the same time as the Eurofighter and Rafale. This lead to more advanced computers being used to calculate airflows producing a more advanced airframe then the fighters designed in the 70's (F-16 F/A-18). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.69.234.247 (talk) 02:12, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

While fighter generations is mostly marketing bullshit, that really does not tell you much about the characteristics of an airplane, it gives at least a hint of what technology level the fighter is designed after, which is an argument for leaving that info in the article. But assigning a generation to a fighter is not more descriptive than to simply state when the aircraft was first designed and when additional enhancements stopped being developed for the model (which will probably not happen for another 20 years in the case of Gripen). Gripen or any other fighter aircraft will not have significantly less computing power or technology level than any other fighter that continuously are upgraded, and they will all in a sense belong to the same generation until the development of the aircraft ceases, which is an argument to remove the marketing bullshit. 83.248.192.253 (talk) 21:27, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
The generation of a fighter aircraft is not "marketing bullshit", it's an agreed-upon division of aircraft of various times. See article Fighter aircraft, section Generation 4.5 (1990-2000). LarRan (talk) 17:02, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] South Africa

The South African AF is supposed to be handed over their Gripen's starting soon. Their web site says first quarter of 2008.[1] I can't find any press releases that say this has happened yet. Should be soon anyway. -Fnlayson (talk) 21:17, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

They may not have been delivered to South Africa but images are on the web of SAAF aircraft test flying in Sweden with SAAF pilots! MilborneOne (talk) 21:24, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Sure. Gripen International and the SAAF have been putting JAS 39s through a flight test program there.[2]
  • This does make things more complicated as to whether SAAF is a Gripen user or not. I can see BillCJ's side now. Someone is welcome to unhide the South African AF in the Infobox if they want as far as I'm concerned. -Fnlayson (talk) 23:54, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
The first aircraft was delivered to the SAAF Flight Test and Development Centre to carry out a flight-test programme in September 2006. The delivery scheduled for March/April 2008 is for the first aircraft to enter operational service.[3]. Seems reasonable to have the SAAF as an operator as they have operated an aircraft since 2006. MilborneOne (talk) 00:17, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
In previous versions of the Gripen page, there was a picture of the first Gripen to be delivered to SAAF, the SA01, at the AFB Overberg, where it had been stationed since the fall of -06. The comment to the picture said that the aircraft was still the property of Saab. Obviously, the aircraft isn't stationary, it's probably being used for evaluation and education purposes. But it isn't operational yet. Until an official delivery has taken place, I don't think we should list SAAF as a user. What's the hurry? LarRan (talk) 07:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
By that reasoning I expect you all to be removing the users from the Infobox on the F-35 forthwith, since the first production plane hasn't even flown yet! Having different standards on different pages is very confusing, as no where in the WP:AIR/PC does it list "official delivery" as the standard. I seriously don't understand the objections to having the SAAF listed here, but I obviously don't have the consensus to keep it in. I guess it's time to get a consensus from WP:AIR on this, but I'm going to wait a week or so and see how things shake out first. - BillCJ (talk) 08:38, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Maybe the template should have another variable: "ordered_by"? LarRan (talk) 16:07, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
The official delivery should take place sometime this month, so this specific situation should resolve itself shortly. Until then, it's probably worth leaving the SAAF off the Primary Users list, since it's only going to be a couple weeks at most until we can add it back. In the larger issue of how this applies to other articles, I'd suggest that we keep to the current standard. For those aircraft already in service, future users are not necessarily guaranteed and should not be in the Users list, but for aircraft still in development (like the F-35), I think it's fine to list future users in the Users list as readers should be intelligent enough to be able to understand the difference. Though that said, I can see problems arising once the F-35 begins deliveries to the USAF and not yet to the other primary users, but I honestly think that's a bridge we can cross when we reach it. — Impi (talk) 18:43, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gripen Technology Demonstrator

The Gripen Demo aircraft is described a little here: Saab reveals Gripen Demo. The landing gear is moved out to make room for 2 fuselage hardpoints. See demo images: Front view main landing gear area Here's a JAS 39 landing image for comparison. -Fnlayson (talk) 19:45, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

A new wiki article has been split off for the Gripen Demo by another user today. See Saab 39E/F Super Gripen for that. -Fnlayson (talk) 15:59, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I think the new article is premature, and so I have redirected it back here. The Demo is not, as far as I can tell, the definitive E/F, and I don't think "Super Gripen" is official either. - BillCJ (talk) 16:30, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
  • I wasn't sure. The super article omits "JAS" in the designation as well. -Fnlayson (talk) 17:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Well thank you very much for that BillCJ, Super Gripen article creater Walle83 (talk) 22:05, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
BillCJ is correct. As yet, the only name Saab has given to the proposed future aircraft is Gripen NG, not 'Super Gripen' and not the JAS-39E/F designation (though that will almost certainly be the designation once in service). The Gripen Demo is only a prototype which will be used to test the new configuration and aspects of the Gripen NG design, but it's not yet close to the definitive final configuration. It does not have the new avionics architecture installed or the specific AESA design planned for the NG, for example. For now, I think the best approach would be to add a section to the article, titled 'Gripen NG', under which we can place information regarding the Gripen Demo and the progress being made towards the final configuration. — Impi (talk) 22:34, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree. LarRan (talk) 10:24, 30 April 2008 (UTC)