Talk:Japanese swordsmanship

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[edit] Merge Discussion

perhaps it would be better not te merge, and instead treat it like a disambiguation page - ie as a hub to the various types of Japanese Swordsmanship?

Its surely a valid umbrella term for all of the types?

It would surely be incorrect to merge "Japanese Swordsmanship" with just one type of said topic?

just a thought :)

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Currently, iaijutsu is just a redirect to iaido.

To throw my two cents in on the merge -- kenjutsu literally just means "sword technique" in Japanese, so under common sense rules you'd think the pages should be merged. Unfortunately, in almost all the usage I've seen, different technique sets like iaido and battoujutsu don't get classified under kenjutsu, though they are parts of Japanese swordmanship.

I think the way to go might be to put a comment on the top of kenjutsu mentioning that if someone is looking for a more general description of Japanese sword techniques in general that they come here. Thoughts? --Kyle Davis 16:55, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

I was going to merge these two pages today, because the Japanese Swordmanship hasn't been touched on for a while. It seems to me that "Japanese Swordmanship" and "kenjutsu" are two terms for the same thing. Most kenjutsu schools use swords other than katana. So maybe the article on kenjutsu could be expanded to include better reference to these other techniques. An even more general view on japanese martial arts would be appropriate on budo or koryu Claus Aranha 11:48, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

I've done some more digging online, and I'm seeing a really vague hierarchy-looking-thing coming out like:

• Japanese martial arts (as you listed)

• Japanese knife/sword techniques

• kenjutsu: sword style originally/traditionally used by samurai. Not restricted to katanas, but everywhere I've seen thus far classifies this as the style involving a katana/wakizashi/tanto. This is the forerunner of (but not the parent style of):

• kendo: a more modern development, with weapons ranging from shinai to boken. Unlike iaido practice, it seems extremely rare to have a kendo dojo where students practice with metal weapons. (Perhaps I just haven't looked hard enough?)

• iaido/iaijutsu (same thing): originally a defensive/single-stroke style, also practiced by samurai. Some sources list this as interchangable with battoujutsu and some don't.
• tantojutsu: knife-fighting arts, as opposed to swords. (Currently stubbed here.)
• tameshigiri: sword-cutting art. (Currently a pretty decent article here.)

I'm still for keeping the two pages separate. I think it's an unfortunate mess of a classification trying to figure out what belongs where... if there's information out there that contradicts what I've found above, toss it into the fray and we'll get it all sorted out somehow. --Kyle Davis 17:10, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I also concur with keeping the two pages seperate. Simply expand the stubs on the current articles in need of it. The rest of my objective statement can be found here. -Zero^Talk 20:42, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Hello :-)

I have tossed the ideas on my head a little bit, and came with a new, third way, that might help us sort the "classification mess".

First, my arguments are:

• Kenjutsu is just the japanese translation for the word swordmanship. There is NO "kenjutsu style". Saying you practice kenjutsu, by itself, is like saying you practice a "sport with a ball".
• I believe the "japanese swordmanship" article can't become more than a list of japanese martial arts with swords. The alternatives would either be it becoming a duplicate of kenjutsu, or instead information being arbitrarily divided between these two articles, with the result being two half articles about japanese swordmanship. (most japanese martial arts with swords are (at least historically) variations of some kenjutsu school).

To comment on this point specifically -- I think there are things to say about "Japanese swordmanship" as a parent category. I mean, we're all still talking about what exactly it is and how it can reasonably be divided. I think something like a basic evolution/chronology/grouping of styles would be tremendously useful. For clarification, are you saying that you would put this information into kenjutsu? --Kyle Davis 00:28, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that is precisely what I mean :-). An article on kenjutsu is largely about evolution/chronology/grouping of sword-like weapon styles. If you go to the techniques themselves, you're dwelving on the realm of koryu. If we did a parent article explaining the differences of tanto, iai, itto, nitto, etc, I believe it would not grow beyond a stub, unless we added also other weapons - but then it would cease to be "swordmanship" Claus Aranha 09:42, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I'll go with that. You're consistent in how you're breaking things down, which should make it plenty easy for anyone to find information on what they're looking for. At the end, I think that's probably the most important thing. I left a message for Zero to try and get all three of us to sign off. (Given the propensity of a good portion of the random pages I looked through on a "kenjutsu" search to classify it as the specific style practiced by so-and-so during such-and-such a time period, I would still push for a "If you're looking for information on the sword styles practiced by samurai/ninjas/your favorite anime character/whoever, see blah-ryu. header.)--Kyle Davis 17:39, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Now, after reading Kyle's list, and reflecting on my first argument, it seems clear that it is also mostly valid for the sword arts above. Iaido, Battoujutsu, Tantoujutsu. And also for martial arts without swords: Jo, Naginata, Sai, Karate, Jujutsu, etc. Indeed, if you go to a Koryu (old style) martial arts presentation, the listing will be something like this:

• xx-ryu kenjutsu (and we see a sword demonstration)
• yy-ryu battoujutsu (and we see tameshigiri)
• xy-ryu shinkendo (and we see sword and iai (!!))
• kk-ryu katatori (and we see karate and judo (!!))
• jj-ryu kenjutsu (and we see sword and tanto (!!))
• xx-ryu kyuudo (note that it is the same style as the first!)

and so on. The names were not really fixed until recently, and japanese can have some slighly different names for very similar things. It is a terrible mess :-/

Anyway a new proposal: right now, the swordmanship page is a list of martial arts with things that look like swords. All of those which are not kendo (and maybe iaido), may be classified as koryu. We could move this list to the koryu article, which right now is just a list of styles, and improve that article, making it two lists: old Japanese martial styles, and old Japanese martial arts. It would look something like this:

• styles
  • xx ryu
  • yy ryu
  • zz ryu

The above styles are usually composed of one or more of the following arts

• arts
  • swordmanship arts
    • kenjutsu
    • iaijutsu
    • tantojutsu
  • spear arts
    • naginatajutsu
    • yarijutsu
  • archery arts
    • kyuujutsu
    • mounted archery

And redirect japanese_swordmanship to either kenjutsu or the above list.

I cannot really see any information that could be put in this article that could not be put into the kenjutsu article instead. But if someone somehow manages to do it, more power to them. Claus Aranha 16:31, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

I also agree with, and support this purposal. Good thing, too, I was all set to go into all this articles and do some serious categorizing. :) -Zero^Talk 18:04, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

support- "kenjutsu" means "sword technique" or "the art of sworplay" and any information in this article can easily be put in there and should be.

[edit] Kenjutsu and Kendo

Just adding something that is not really relevant to the merge discussion. On Kyle's commentary about kendo.

When you talk kendo, you can mean one of two things:

• The modern sport/martial art called kendo. This is what most people will recognize as kendo, and is the default usage. This martial art was developed based on a kenjutsu style based on ittoryu (I don't have any books on me to nail down exactly which style was it). It uses only shinai and bokken. And the bokken, only for the (I believe 4) katas.

• Some more recent old martial arts (more recent old is weird) call themselves kendo instead of kenjutsu. They did this to show that they did not focus only on sword techniques, but also in philosophy, ethics, etc. Not that a martial arts school that defines itself as kenjutsu does not also have its philosophical and ethic teachings. Kenjutsu schools that call themselves kendo often have also Iai practice, and thus you can see "kendo" with metal swords.

Now, neither meaning is "incorrect". Depending on their bias, I have seen people calling the modern kendo as "shinai kendo", or "shin kendo". I have also seen the old kendo called as "koryu kendo" or "shin kendo" to avoid confusion.

In other words, a true mess :-) Claus Aranha 16:44, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Further adding to the confusion of this, I went to the local kendo dojo last weekend, where they have three separate lines of instruction: kendo, kendo kata, and iaido. (They had seven kata, for the record, but given how scattered all the information is on this subject I'm fully convinced we could both be factually correct...)

I didn't know anything about the old-style kendo -- I thought it was a fairly linear progression from its inception as a form until the current time, but that's something I've never honestly looked into. (Is that "shin kendo" as in "new kendo"? This gets better and better!) --Kyle Davis 00:09, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Well if you mean that kendo, as we know it today (martial art/sport) has a linear progression, well, AFAIK that is true. When I said "old style kendo", I just meant some (from our point of view) kenjutsu schools that would call themselves kendo to separate from other kenjutsu schools. It does not mean that they are related to modern kendo in any way. Modern kendo was stablished a little after the meiji restoration, and has some very clear-cut rules about what it is and what it is not. These rules are needed for competitions and "belting". But beyond the competition and getting degrees aspect, things start to get muddled. Some current kendo schools forego the kata training, and concentrate only on the competition aspect. Other schools try to re-reach for their roots, and add (usually) some Iai, Aikido, or Itto-ryu katas. And there is lots of middle ground. Claus Aranha 09:30, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Confusion of Terms

In summary, I agree we need to retain Japanese Swordmanship as a hub to the specifc elements of it. I know there is a fair bit of confusion, which is to be expected when people from one culture attempt to understand another.

Let me begin by stating the 'facts' as I understand them. Feel free to criticise me on this, because obvious it'll affect the validity of my argument.

My understanding of modern Japanese martial arts (nihon bujutsu), is that they are of two main and philosophical types.

Do & Jutsu.

Do translates to 'the way'. Such that 'kendo' is the way of the katana[ken] (see the next topic), and that 'aikido' is the way of 'spirits in harmony'[aiki]. Its about gaining understanding and enlightment by improving one's form.

Jutsu translates to 'practical art' and is used in modern & western society to signify the battlefield or combative form. Its generally more aggressive and hands on then a Do form. Its about gaining understanding and enlightment by being able to kill/disable people more effectively.

Difference between Ken & To

Now one thing I think which is part of the confusion around here is the misunderstanding of the difference between 'To' & 'Ken'. Look up the kanji and you'll notice that they're two different characters.

To means sword or blade, it is a very generally and broad term in the japanese language. Hence, the kanji is used to generally describe any sword of just about any length. You can see this in the usage of the terms 'tanto', 'shoto' & 'daito'. The kanji is two downward strokes with the first stroke travelling across before down, which by no conincidence is also the main technique of cutting with just about any japanese sword.

Ken is a completely different kanji character, with that sort of house resembling shape on one side and two strokes to the right of it. Ken refers to the old fashion 'ken' style sword, which was eventually replaced by the 'katana'. As a japanese term, it generally refers to a sword between two and two & half shaku in length. Never do you hear a tanto described as a specifcally as a ken. The favour for the term 'Shinken' as opposed to 'Shinto' is probably to reduce confusion with the practice of Shinto.

This should be also easily confirmed with a good book on kanji, and searching of the web.

My point to this is such, the japanese translation of 'Swordfighting' is To-jutsu, not ken-jutsu. Ken-jutsu would be like saying 'Broadswordfighting'. Hence we should NOT merge kenjutsu with Japanese Swordsmanship. They're two seperate things.

In my opinion to-jutsu (japanese swordmanship) can be split to the following:

Ken Techniques

Kenjutsu - free sparring with katanas, and the drills and kata associated with a drawn katana.

Kendo - The 'art of tapping' as my ryu like to call it, with references to its origins in kenjutsu.

Iaijutsu - The practical art of drawing to make a cut, with focus on the speed and power of the draw & cut.

Iaido - The more 'artiste' art of drawing to make a cut, with focus on the technique and form.

Batojutsu - The mix of both iai & ken to form a practical art of drawing the sword to make a cut, then making a few more cuts on the same or other opponents, and putting the sword back away.

Other Techniques

Shoto-jutsu - all of the above, but with a Shoto (wakizashi). There's not as many kata so it can be practiced as one art.

Tanto-jutsu - as above but with the good old armour piercer (tanto).

Ni-to-jutsu - Musashi Style! fighting with two swords, essentially of any combination of any lengths.

Anything else can probably fit under one of the above (i.e shinkendo, shinkenjutsu) Also we should include the kanji for various terms, to help explain the differences. Afterall, japanese martials arts are rather meaningless if you don't understand basic japanese language and culture.

Links to The various Ryu Naginata-jutsu So-jutsu Nagamaki-jutsu bo/jo/tanjo-jutsu Aikido.

--BloodMagus 00:31, 3 March 2006 (UTC)