Talk:Japanese name

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[edit] 3-character surnames

I originally wrote the claim in the article that says 3-character names are less common than 1 or 2-character surnames. Now, I am not sure about this. Until we get some source, we should remove this assertion. -- Taku 10:46, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Kaneko a personal name?

We read that Kaneko is a personal name as well as a family name. Is this true? I've never heard of it being used as a personal name. [cough] Is it possible that this was written by some gaijin, pardon me, non-Japanese individual, unaware of "Kanako"? Or is it me that's deluded? -- Hoary 04:57, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

We read: (For example Kaneko 金子, or Masuko 益子). Yes, how about Masuko? I don't recall ever having met somebody with the personal name Masuko, although my circle of acquaintances may be smaller than average. -- Hoary 10:44, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I have never met someone whose name is Kaneko 金子, or Masuko 益子 neither but as those name's construction is not unusual, I don't think possibility is zero. --Kusunose 14:18, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
With Google, I found someone whose given name is Masuko 益子 here. There may be someone whose given name is Kaneko 金子 as well. --Kusunose 14:20, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Here, someone claims he/she knows a person whose name is Kaneko Kaneko (金子金子). --Kusunose 14:25, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
But an isolated instance isn't the point. To list Moon Unit as an example of an American name, without describing it as uncommon or unusual, would be misleading. Is the given name Kaneko a whole lot more common than Moon Unit? Or does the article give it undue weight? Fg2 21:03, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Ah, I've found that 金子 かねこ is indeed a girl's name, though a very old fashioned one. Ditto for 益子 ますこ. Putting aside the matter of the kanji used for them, Haruna and Satomi are both surnames and girls' names. -- Hoary 13:39, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I think the most good example for the topic is Mayumi 真弓 (female's personal name). The case Kaneko and Masuko is not common and I don't feel natural.

[edit] Only one reading correct?

We read:

A name written in kanji may have more than one common pronunciation, only one of which is correct for a given individual.

This is not my area of expertise, but I believe that this is wrong.

Is the pronunciation written (via "ruby", etc.) in the koseki? I don't think it is. (I may be wrong.) If it isn't, then the correct pronunciation of a child's surname would be that preferred by the family. If the adult later decided that "Miyakawa" sounded cooler than the family's traditional "Miyagawa", she could call herself the former.

Hang on, no, it's more complex than that. I have a friend called 鎌田, Kamata. I'll call her Nami. (Her parents are Kamata too, not Kamada.) On rare formal occasions Nami has to declare that the pronunciation of her name is Kamada (which she dislikes). And presumably the roman-letter name in her passport is "Kamada".

Thus the pronunciation is not arbitrary. But even so, it's simplistic to say "only one [pronunciation] will be correct for a given individual". If you call Nami "Kamada-san" or "Miss Kamada", she'll politely "correct" you the first time, be pissed off if you continue. If however you have some power of attorney or anyway are picking up Nami's passport for her, "Kamata" will be wrong and "Kamada" correct.

Unvoiced alternatives seem preferred in Japanese; I suspect that Nami's case is common.

Now let's move on to personal names. My own interest is photography. 森山大道 is a famous photographer. It's clear from what's printed here and there that his name is to be pronounced "Daidō". But if you go back to the seventies, you'll see it printed as "Hiromichi". This is no mere fluke: 東松照明 is written to be pronounced "Shōmei", but early publications have it printed as "Teruaki". And I could give more examples, but don't want to labor the point. Question, though: Is it right to talk about a single correct reading for a name? I very much doubt it, but lack either the knowledge to improve this or the time/energy in which to find out for sure. -- Hoary 05:23, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that names sometimes have multiple readings, and that an individual sometimes uses multiple pronunciations for his or her name without changing the writing, with voiced and unvoiced variations, or on/kun variations. My impression is that these aren't very common, but common enough that they're not curiosities. It's probably worth avoiding referring to "the" singular correct reading of a name, and acknowledging that some people have names that they read in multiple ways. Fg2 08:21, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the response.

Increasingly, I'm tending to think that the voiced/unvoiced and on/kun ambiguities are pretty common (the latter especially so among male literati). Like you, I don't want to make a big issue of it, but I'm sure it's worth mentioning, not least because the flat statement that there's a single reading contradicts what's said in a significant and growing number of articles that have templates pointing to this page. But how should one mention it most accurately?

As I'm too lazy busy to travel 100km to look up the koseki in which (yes!) I appear, I'd like to ask about a simple matter of fact: Does the koseki give the reading of the surname and/or personal names? (I asked th' missus, but she didn't remember.) -- Hoary 08:40, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

According to these pages form Oshiete! goo, koseki does not record readings, though till Heisei 6 it did for those who requested. And although Jūminhyō records readings, it's for data processing and not legal. --Kusunose 12:24, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

If this is indeed so (and right now I'm too sleepy/lazy to want to read the links you kindly provided), then for some people there is an (a) legally correct reading and for others there isn't. Most people have a (b) single pronunciation at any one stage (s) of their lives, and for most purposes we can regard (bs) as correct; (bs) may or may not be the same as (a) (if (a) exists). Gulp. Consider 東松照明: if his name has a legally defined reading (a), it's likely to be とうまつ てるあき (though I don't claim to know this for sure); but in any non-legalistic, non-perverse way, the real-world correct reading (b) has for the last forty-plus years been とうまつ しょうめい. And 東松's case is pretty routine, I think. -- Hoary 13:58, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WP:FU

The comment below was originally posted on my talk page and brought here --Kusunose 07:40, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

"(diff) (hist) . . Japanese name‎; 11:53 . . (-389) . . Kusunose (Talk | contribs | block) (→Japanese names in English - removed Image:SugorokuMutou.PNG. It does not meet WP:FU)"

It is fair use. And, I have no free alternative in the context of "Sugoroku Mutou." Now, why don't you find me a replacement picture in the context of "Japanese names," and I will accept the removal of the picture? WhisperToMe 04:45, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

No, it is not. You can discuss "Sugoroku Mutou"'s name without a picture. To know how differently he is named in different media, readers do not have to know how he looks. It's just decorative. --Kusunose 07:40, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
Actually, the point was that the characters' name was printed, in English, in that order (Didn't you notice the English-language text?) - the point was to illustrate the typical naming order used in English-language translated manga (Hey, manga is a visual medium, so it kinda makes sense to show a manga panel to illustrate this, doesn't it?). Either keep the image, or ask me to find a more suitable example (e.g. a page of a manga series listing characters by name) WhisperToMe 07:37, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
You don't need to "quote" an entire panel just for a text. In my opinion, that's excessive; just providing a citation is enough. By the way, the image lacks fair use rationale so it may be speedy deleted. --Kusunose 13:35, 13 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Western middle names?

The page says that «middle names are not recognized in Japan in the Western sense». What are middle names in Western sense? There's no two identical, or even similar, "western" person naming traditions.

I suggest that the article is chnaged to something like: «Middle names are not recognized in Japan in the U.S. sense.» But then it would beg the question «Why should they?» and some troll might even add, for completeness sake, that:

«Patronymics are not recognized in Japan in the Slavic or Icelandic sense; hyphenated given names are not recognized in Japan in the French or Scandinavian sense; father/mother surname order is not an issue in Japan in the Spanish or Portuguese sense; "de" vs. "De" surname sorting issues are not relevant in Japan in the Belgian sense.» Etc. ;-)

The right thing to do is to remove the sentence altoghether. It is already explained that Japanese names typically consists of surname and given name: two words, nothing in the middle.

194.65.103.1 12:16, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

If the right thing to do is remove it, please do. See Wikipedia:Be bold. Fg2 12:42, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Ah, but the "middle name", if you have one, comes last in Japan. Bendono 13:25, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't that then be changed in the aforementioned sentence? I too, thought that the sentence regarding middle names was not very clear to say the least. I myself haven't the reference or resource to justify changing it. Would someone with the right information be thus obliged? Kei Yuki (talk) 09:51, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

Two references are poorly displayed (i.e., just the bracketed number), and one is omitted (#3). I do not know how to correct them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Skaizun (talk • contribs) 14:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Databases

In many databases, westerners typicly flip the order of the commonly used firstname, lastname format to make it lastname, firstnam. What format is used in japanise databases?

Last name, first name format. Oda Mari (talk) 07:47, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Though, since it's a database, as long as you have separate fields for first name and last name, you can have the output in either order. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 08:15, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, you are right, Nihonjoe. I thought of the index of reference books. Ha ha ha. Oda Mari (talk) 14:05, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Image issues

The image can't be seen in a white-on-black browser because it is black-on-transparent. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.167.69.31 (talk) 14:32, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Which image? And why are you forcing the background to be black in your browser? ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 03:31, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Image:Yamada-vertical.svg (the name "Yamada Taro") has a transparent background. The other question is beyond me. Fg2 (talk) 03:38, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Name Construction

I think it would be a good idea to list some general rules about how Japanese names are constructed. I have a ton of questions about Japanese names. Can a noun by itself be used as a name? How are word combinations constructed? Is it possible to just stick two nouns together and 'use' it as a name? I have searched everywhere and have found no such rules.202.33.24.131 (talk) 00:09, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I would also like to see general rules about name construction. It would be a very informative addition in my opinion. --DavidD4scnrt (talk) 05:21, 9 April 2008 (UTC)