Talk:Jante Law

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[edit] Translation of background

Is there any chance of an English translation of the background relating to Janteloven? - imho this is important to a fuller understanding of the Danish character. Agendum 00:39, 25 Jan 2004 (UTC)

OK - I'll have a go at it myself - any Danish contributors out there please feel free to add and/or correct! Agendum 09:46, 31 Jan 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Pluralisation

I've still got a problem with the pluralisation of the word which Sjc has implemented. As I understand it (and I've studied Danish as a foreign language a bit) loven is literally the law in this context (with the definite article), not a plural, ie, The Jante Law -- I've referred to a Dansk Ordbog, and I think it backs up that view -- as well as checking with the Nordeners website at [1]. Any native Danish speakers out there who may know definitively (and I see a few have signed up for the Danish wikipedians' notice board), please let us know which is right! Cheers, Bruce, aka Agendum | Talk 00:53, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I believe that in danish/norwegian, it would be "Lov"-"Law", "Loven"-"The law", "Lover"-"Laws" , "Loverne"-"The laws", but I am a native Swede, so I could possibly have gotten it wrong somewhere...
In Danish, the word is processed as follows: 'en lov' - 'a law', 'loven' - 'the law', '(flere) love' - '(more) laws', '(alle) lovene' - '(all the) laws'. Hope this makes sense, though I'm not entirely sure what is discussed.. ;) About the translation 'Janteloven' - 'Jante Law', it might be more correct naming it 'The Jante Law'. Poulsen 00:43, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Janteloven (copied from User talk:sjc

I see you altered the beginning of the above article, making it plural. Are you Danish? - I am not, but have spent some time in Denmark, and was under the impression that this so-called 'law' is always referred to in the singular, and that 'Janteloven' was singular. Please correct me if you are sure that I am wrong :-) Bruce, aka Agendum | Talk 13:35, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

lov is the singular form for law, loven is the plural. I live in Denmark much of the time and can read and write it (don't speak it, fiendish language to speak! or understand in spoken form!) and they are usually referred to in the plural form. Sjc 09:04, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I've still got a problem with the pluralisation of the word. As I understand it (and I've studied Danish as a foreign language) loven is literally the law in this context (with the definite article), not a plural, ie, The Jante Law -- I've referred to a Dansk Ordbog, and I think it backs up that view -- as well as checking with the Nordeners website at [2]. Any native Danish speakers out there who may know definitively (and I see a few have signed up for the Danish wikipedians' notice board), please let us know which is right! Cheers, Bruce, aka Agendum | Talk 00:49, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)
A google on Jante Law v. Jante Laws gives a 2:1 majority in favour of the singular form, so you are probably right in this respect. There are a number of them, and my Gyldendals Ordbog translates it idiomatically as 'the who-do-you-think-you-are attitude'. I think we should go for one or the other and be consistent throughout the article whichever we elect upon, and the balance of probabilities makes it look as though we should, as you rightly suggest, treat them as a singular homogenous unit. I will fix changes in this respect. I will also move a copy of this discussion to the talk page for this article for future refence. Sjc 09:54, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

lov is the singular form for law, loven is the plural. I live in Denmark much of the time and can read and write it (don't speak it, fiendish language to speak! or understand in spoken form!) and they are usually referred to in the plural form. Sjc 09:04, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, that's just not true.

"loven" means "the law",
"love" means "laws",
"loverne" means "the laws" User:82.182.97.2

My bad, my Dutch screwing up my somewhat imperfect Danish lol. I'll get my coat... Sjc 19:23, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Lovene is "lov" in plural. Not loverne. preisler

That's true for Norwegian. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that the Danish plural of 'lov' is 'loverne' - are you sure it's not? I've heard referred to 'danskerne', 'svenskerne' &c so many times I was sure 'loverne' would be the correct Danish plural. But then again, Danish doesn't make sense ;)
Also, in Norwegian, as the article says, it's known as 'Janteloven' - the definite singular form. I'm all in favour of calling the article 'The Jante Law' Ilmarinen 19:08, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

It is definitely in singular form. It would have been "Janteloverne" in Danish plural and "Jantelovene" in Norwegian plural. "Janteloven" is singular in both Danish and Norwegian. However, I feel it should have been translated with "The law of Jante" even if it isn't entirely correct.

Just to make things clear: the plural definit of "lov" ("a law") is "lovene" ("the laws"). The person above, that did not sign his post, is right that "danskerne" ("the Danes") is a plural definit version of "dansker" ("a Dane"). This is so, because the noun "dansker" ends in "-r" and such nouns gets an "-ne" attached in the end in plural definit form (this was the case with the words ending in "-r" I could come up with in my head --- there might be inconsistencies in this rule). These plural definit endings are probably some of the more common errors when people with another mother tongue speak Danish. The direct translation of "Janteloven" from Danish to English is "The Jante Law", and I believe that is also the case from Norwegian to English. Also, I would like to add, that my personal opinion (I am from Denmark, so it might be different in Norway) is, that "The Jante Law" is in fact a derogatory term being used positive rather than normative. It appears now and then in daily talk, usually whenever someone has been mistreated (in the sense of the topic discussed), that "this is the typical attitude of Janteloven in this country". I am not sure if that is evident from the article. [See also the post by Ilmarinen from 7th of March below, indicating that this is also true for the Norwegian use of the word]. On the other hand, I do think Danes in general live by some degree of "The Jante Law" as it is in fact subtly frowned upon (for example) to speak loudly of ones own salary (especially if it is high) or to point out own notable achievements, at least in public and without direct confrontation. To which degree this is different from other cultures I can't say, but I am sure there must be some anthropologists out there, that has researched this fenomena. Please note that these are my personal views on the term itself and if/how it applies to the Danish culture. I would be interested to hear what other Danes has to say on this matter. --- Marc K 14:10, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Biblical style

I'm just wondering - shouldn't some reference be made to the fact that the Jante Law uncannily resembles the Ten Commandments, or indeed, translate the ten laws into a kind of biblical style - something like "Thou shalt not think thou art special"? I read the book in literature at school and got this feeling when I came upon it - and I think it is also made a reference to the Ten Commandments in the actual text. Sam Vimes 22:21, 25 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree, it should be noted in the article. It is a quite obvious reference, so maybe that's why noone thought about writing it in the article. --- Marc K 14:23, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Janteloven and the Vikings

[Yorkshire] was one of the parts of Great Britain where the Danish Vikings settled from the 8th century onwards and it is possible that similar cultural attitudes remain.

Please give me some sources to suggest that the Vikings, rather than protestant work ethic and an early arrival of modern central government in the 16th century, is to blame for the Jante law in Scandinavia. --Salleman 5 July 2005 11:45 (UTC)

In response to Salleman i think there's plenty of examples in the edda. I might be wrong though.

[edit] Original research

Some new claims have been added to the article, interpreting the Jante Law in light of modern left- and right-wing politics. Without references I would call this original research, which should be reverted. Also, the barato is now mentioned again, but without better explanation I don't think it has much to do with the Jante Law. --Eddi (Talk) 04:50, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Reverted. --Eddi (Talk) 11:32, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Current thinking

Just felt it necessary to break up the text, which is getting longer and harder to read without a sub-heading. I've also re-phrased the final paragraph without (hopefully) changing its meaning. Bruce, aka Agendum | Talk 14:10, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Sub-headings are always good. As the text covers more than current thinking, however, it should perhaps have a kind of timeless heading about interpretation of the law or something. --Eddi (Talk) 16:49, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
I'm open to that. 'Modern Interpretation', or something similar? Bruce, aka Agendum | Talk 23:50, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Japanese version of the law

I have heard that in Japan there is a saying: "The nail that pops up its head gets hammered down" (which is equivalent to the Jante Law). If this is true, then it should probably be in the article as a further example. SpectrumDT 11:12, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I've seen this used in anime and manga as well.
Hm, I've heard the expression too, but from what I gather it's not equivalent to the Jante Law. The Japanese expression is more about separating from society in general, having different views or try to change things &c, whereas the JL is more focused on the whole aspect of being good at things and how you shouldn't boast or be proud of those things.
An example is our "new" interim minister Jonas Gahr Støre who have been accused of being too 'good' (flink is the Norwegian word; hard to translate the connotions) or too professional if you want. However, his critics are usually dismissed on the basis of using the JL (which shows the negative connotions it has here).
I'm not sure how clear that was, but basically I don't think they're all that similar. Ilmarinen 17:45, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Modern Interpretation

I propose to redraft the first part of this rather awkward paragraph, removing the rather strange expression set phrase, and also mention of foreign visitors who, in my opinion and experience, generally have no notion at all what the Jante Law is – and also drawing attention that this thinking principally applies to Denmark, as well as to other Nordic countries. Unless, of course, somebody else knows better.... – Agendum 23:57, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I live in Sweden, and Jantelagen is alive and well here. Also, the Current Thinking section at the end claims it to be strongest in Sweden these days, so I think it's fair to say Sweden is at least as lagom as Denmark!  :) --Steverapaport 6 September 2006
I stand corrected! – Agendum 12:56, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV troubles

The income tax systems of the Nordic countries are designed in a way to promote (enforce) equality amongst its citizens, and this should be regarded as a contemporary expression of the Jante Law.

This is a pretty flagrant NPOV violation. It may not be entirely clear to non-Nordic readers(in which case the article has failed its perhaps most basic purpose), but this expression has almost exclusively negative connotations(notice especially points 1, 2, 7, 9, and 10). Saying that the income tax systems of the Nordic countries should be regarded as expressions of the Jante Law is thus a direct, unsourced, criticism of those systems. It might be said that detractors of those systems view them as expressions of the Jante Law, but even this would have to be sourced.

However its presence is still strong in many areas, and possibly stronger in the larger Nordic countries than in Denmark.

This sentence seems odd since, by population, there is only one Nordic country larger than Denmark: Sweden. Substituting "Sweden" into the sentence, however, reveals more clearly that this sentence is also an NPOV violation. Note that this sentence was added into the article mentioning Sweden specifically, by what seems to be a Swedish anonymous user [3]. I live in Norway, and there are definitely groups of people here who would emphasize the importance of the Jante Law in the Norwegian political climate as opposed to those in the other Nordic countries—this is an expression of a specific sort of dissatisfaction with the political status quo(the income tax situation above being a part of that status quo). Of course, the last sentence is just my personal interpretation and should not be put into the article. 84.48.89.55 12:05, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of Unsourced Speculation

I have again deleted all unsourced speculation - if you wish to add this back, *please add sources*. Otherwise this violates WP:SOAP/OR and *must* be excluded. I do not dispute that the material is relevant to the article - it clearly is. Without any sources (and there are none in these sections) it can only be viewed as OR and thus not appropriate. If you want to revert the text and add sources - that's great. But without sources this stuff can't stay. Bigdaddy1981 18:57, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

OK – any Danish or Norwegian contributors got any sources that can be used to validate this part of the article, which rather neatly, I think, describes current attitudes towards Janteloven? I don't have access to these texts myself. – Agendum 00:06, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
The deletion had left the See also section out of context. Pavel Vozenilek 00:25, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jante Law today

This article was formerly much longer, with a fuller explanation for non-Danish (or non-Nordic) readers. Granted, there may have been some speculation, but hasn't this now been pruned down so that it tells the reader almost nothing at all?

Shouldn't there be at least something about the impact of Janteloven today and its continued existence in the social consciousness of Denmark (I can't speak about Norway or Sweden)? My understanding is that it has had a lasting effect in some areas of social mores and behaviour, and continues to do so. Comments?

Cheers, Bruce – Agendum (talk) 14:08, 6 June 2008 (UTC)