Talk:Jamsrangiin Tseveen

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Google scholar gives at least 15 related hits for Jamtsarano, not a single related (!) hit for Tseveen, about 15 hits for Tsyben - but of these latter 15, all are for Tsyben Jamtsarano and the like and none for Jamtsarano-yin Tsyben or something similar. It also yields some hits for Zhamtsarano. Jamsrano or Jamtsarano is also the name used by writers like C.R. Bawden, R. Rupen, or Walther Heissig, or by contemporary writers like Joseph Geleta. So - IMO writing Tseveen Jamsrano is justified in an english-speaking encyclopedia.

I don't know if he ever held Mongolian personal documents or what name they displayed. In any case, Жамсрангийн Цэвээн yields not that much more hits than Цэвээн Жамсрано on my search engine (www.google.de, 19 vs. 13). Yaan (talk) 10:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

As one of the authors of the party platform of the MPRP, I'm sure that he held every Mongolian document possible at the time. Apart from that, since his life and work were almost exclusively focused on Mongolia, I think it is appropriate to use his Mongolian name. He didn't seem to think that his Buryat origin made much of a difference himself. I suspect that the spellings you find in Google scholar are just copied from Russian sources, which may or may not be correct. In any case, he is not well-known enough to argue "common English use". --Latebird (talk) 12:52, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
My guess would be that Jamsrano might have only held those documents needed at the time. Gievn that the Mongolian People's party was an organzation in exile when he wrote the platform, his documents at that time would not have been really worth it anyway. If you read the article, you can see that he only spent about 20 years (out of sixty) in Mongolia. He already had started an academic career before settling in Mongolia, and he continued it after he was exiled.
Actually, I now wonder what constitutes common english use. Also I would like to know if you have a reliable source that justifies preferring Jamsrangiin Tseveen over Tseveen Jamsrano.
P.S. I have seen Mongolian sources that split up Dashi Sampilon (also a Buryat, Minister for trade and economy in the 1920s) into two different persons. So it's not just Russian sources that warrant scepticism.Yaan (talk) 13:10, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
The Russian and/or TuvinianBuryat spellings oscillate wildly between Jamsrano/Jamtsarano/Zhamtsarano/Zamcaranovic/Zamcarano Ts./Tsyben/Cyben and probably a few others. This gives us way too many combinations, most of which will appear in some sources, with no indication which one might be correct in either language. Since the mentions are so few, "popularity" will also be rather random. Your preference "Tseveen Jamsrano" even seems to be a mixture between Mongolian and TuvinianBuryat/Russian. One advantage of the Mongolian version is that we are relatively certain how to spell it correctly in that language. And while it is true that he had an earlier career elsewhere, his Mongolian activities are what makes him notable for Wikipedia. --Latebird (talk) 16:01, 10 December 2007 (UTC) (PS: fixed tuvinian/buryat confusion)
I don't think Tuvan spellings are relevant at all. Buryat spelling would be relevant, but Tuvan isn't. The Russian spelling - the one that appears on his many academic works in that language, both before and after his time in Mongolia - is Tsyben Jamtsarano, and variations are only due to different romanization systems. Jamtsaranovich is, of course, a Russian patronymic. I don't think you really can keep his role in Mongolia apart from his status as Buryat. Yaan (talk) 16:38, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
My mistake mixing up Tuvinian and Buryat. So that would leave us with a Russian and a Mongolian spelling now. Do we also have a Buryat version? Interestingly, at least if the article is accurate in any way, all his related research focused on "Mongolian" and none on "Buryat" topics. Did he possibly consider them one and the same? --Latebird (talk) 17:23, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
He actually wrote a number of texts on Buryat topics. Of course he may still have considered Buryats a subset of Mongols. But all of these texts seem to have been edited under the name Jamtsarano or Tsyben Jamtsarano. Rupen lists only one of his works that appeared under his Mongolian name, and that is his work about Darkhad, Khovsgol nuuriyn Uriankhai, Dorvod, Khoton, etc. which appeared in Ulaanbaatar in 1934. Rupen does not mention whether Jamsrano ever aquired Mongolian citizenship. Yaan (talk) 17:42, 10 December 2007 (UTC)